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Safe Zones in a PVP World
Awenyddion
Community Manager, Star Trek OnlineMember Posts: 14
If you were a developer and you had to build in safe zones so that new players were safe from PK'ers, what would you do?
Nicole "Awenyddion" Hamlett
Star Trek Online Community Manager
Comments
Typically they make cities safe zones as you need some stability if you are going to have commerce.
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We don't have cities in space.
How would you do it in in terms of mechanics?
Nicole "Awenyddion" Hamlett
Star Trek Online Community Manager
There should be a way to give maximum protection to newbies in regulated space.
But I would have to disagree with having safe zones in JG:E is because that if a high level player stays in the safe zone without having to worry about getting killed by another player, eventually this player will be in the top 10 list in networth where he's just another billionare.
To tell you the truth about this game, there should be no safe place in space if you just got out of the newbie stages.
That doesn't mean I should encourage player killing going rampant in regulated space. There should be non-weak AI ships going after these type of player killers.
Players still need get used to being killed by other players especially overwhelmingly.
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I completely agree with everything MagicStar said. Safe zones just feel so artificial. The idea of an MMORPG is that you have a lot of freedom, and yet most MMOs feature zones where you literally can not attack another. SO many MMORPGs pander to those who want everything to be on very easy mode, which has created entire legions of malcontents. If you want to make lots of money in the short run, then fine, make another WoW in space, but if you want this game to last for years to come, make a game that is actually challenging and realistic.
Whats to say that these safe zones, ie those zones most heavily controlled by the governments in the Universe don't have the Jumpgates themselves emitting some sort of no fire signal to ships computers that can't be overridden.
Its not that unbelieveable that this sort of thing could be required on all ships to prevent terrorism, diplomatic incidents, etc all working towards preventing wars.
Remember folks this is Sci-Fi, you can explain nearly anything with a reasonable piece of invented technology.
It won't feel artificial if its explained properly to work with the universe. Besides from a business standpoint, this is a must feature to get the most players in the game.
oh yeah, its possible to explain in story. But I could also say, I have a anti anti firesignal jg device on my ship, and should be able to shoot any1.
If it is explainable or not is not my concern, my concern is a dull game, mmos are not about making things safe and predictable.
I say, like always, only noobie protection, and only artificial (like you cant fire) if it is the only option. Otherwise there are many ways to make certain areas of games much safer without having to resort to such drastic actions.
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Eraser, you say its possible but if the rules of the game say it isn't, then you end up over ruled.
There are many many ways to make a logical storyline fit for a safe zones concept. The thing to remember (as I see your a JG Classic player) is that in order for JGE to be successful and popular, safe zones are a must.
We all want this game to succeed so there are tons of folks to play with / against. Which means accepting that some changes will be made as compared to the original game's PvP format (which worked great with the small community.. but imagine the problems if there were 9 million people playing....we'd have thousands of uber rich players off bounty alone).
I will never agree to completely 100% safe zones. I just dont think its belongs in mmo's.
except for noobie protection.
My cool sig: Turrets suck.
When I used to play Jumpgate years ago there were no "safe zones". But if you attacked someone in a zone owned by a faction you would instantly get a bounty (which would go up with every hit you made on them), meaning anyone from that faction can kill you and claim it. If you killed someone you would loose a ton of faction reputation and would be banned from docking or buying items with that faction, they would send endless amounts of nasty fighter drones at you if you went near their stations as well :P
This worked pretty well as it put people off just mindlessly killing, most people would need stuff from all factions at some point. Almost all the pvp happened in "neutral space" that no one owned.
Safe zones are paramount for a successful game? Well you should pass that tip along to the guys who run EVE :P
Protection in noob areas is a must, but absolute "you may not press the fire button in this zone" isn't, it means that everytime you fly into one of these zones you get like 50,000 requests for a duel from idiots who just wanna pvp in the safe zone rather than go out and face a challenge. It means that you lose an element of realism as you never have to worry about possible attacks.
Sorry but it sounds like this game is going to be just another game that panders to the loud minority of people who want everything to be extremely friggin easy, as I have stated before.
EDIT: I just read what NasherUK said about the original JG, I never played it but that system of punishment sounds much better than safe zones, and if he is telling the truth about it working well then why fix something that isn't broke?
I prefer no safe zones at all.
It would be easy to discourage killing in the newbie zones with the combination of a bounty system (enforceable by NPCs as well as other players) combined with a severe faction penalty.
This solves half of the problem by punishing the newbie killer but something still should be done to help the newbie victim.
When a bounty hunter successfully kills a player with a bounty on his head, he naturally gets some sort of reward. But there should also be a "fine" assessed which is payable to their victim(s).
Let me illustrate:
Let's say you are a brand new player. You take your little starter ship out for a spin and some veteran who is having a bad day—his girlfriend just dumped his sorry ass—takes it out on you and blows you away.
You respawn back in the station and your faction gives you a new starter ship for free. This free replacement makes it possible for you to keep playing but you are still pissed at being PKed. Time is money in an MMO and your were just robbed of some of your game time.
You take a little comfort in knowing that a high bounty will be placed on the player that killed you. Players will be actively hunting him down and he will be attacked by NPCs if he nears your faction’s stations.
But that’s not enough. The fact that he will be killed is neato but does nothing for you. You keep playing and a few hours later you receive an in-game notice that your PKer was just killed. Cool. And then you receive a payment, a penalty that was automatically assessed to the PKer. HA HA! Not only did he get killed and lose his (more expensive) ship, but he also had to pay you!
Now you feel a little better. You use some of the sucker’s money to buy an upgrade for your baby ship and go back to having fun.
Obviously, there a few logistic details that would have to be addressed in such a system but nothing that is overly difficult. For example, if the PKer is broke then the penalty fee is still paid to the victim but shows as a debt to the PKer and is automatically collected the next time he earns any money.
You could do what Neocron did.
Basically in neocron Noobs got a special chip implanted on charecter creation that basically made them immune to PvP [a constant no PvP tag] And they could go anywhere and kill any mob they wanted.
But the XP gain they got from monsters and mission reards was reduced by 75% as was loot value i think. And while the chip could be removed anytime to get full rewards and to be PvP available the chip couldnt be put back in or replaced.
This way Noobs get 100% protection at a cost.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
Just dock in Jita
Basically a player with a bounty culd just crreate an alt to kill his bountyed toon. And when the bountied guy is killed his alt gets the cash and transfers it to his main guy who just got killed.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
Good point. Remember that I said there would also be a monetary fine assessed to the PKer. This exploit potential could be easily eliminated by making sure that the fine is larger than or at least equal to the reward paid to the bounty hunter.
You dont need any safe zones. When you begin to play, you are a noob. The harcher conditions......the faster you will gain knowledge about the world.
Never let the weak ones set the rules for everyone else in a MMO.
Example: i recently begin to play Battlefield 2142, and im the worst player ever set foot in that game. Would it be right to set the game at my level? And ruin it for everyone else??
Dont think so, just let the MMos have their way.
I've always despised restrictive PvP, but I actually didn't mind this system in Neocron. If something like this needs to be implemented just to stop the whiney, sheltered WoW players, then so be it.
The less restriction on PvP, the better. I believe true games will give you the choice at attacking whoever you like, wherever you like. Surelly the fact that you'll be hunted by both in-game NPC factions and real players will cause you to think carefully about the decision to attack another player.... I don't think the game should make this choice for you.
I don't want 100% safe zones, but I would expect somekind of police/militia/navy intervention to keep greifing down to a minimum in regulated areas.
I like the idea of taking the chance to kill someone in reg space, but then reaping the consequences when a price is put on your head by the faction you dissed. Maybe prices are higher when trying to buy from that faction from then on, and the only way to reduce them is to regain rep with that faction by performing missions or killing that factions enemies, or maybe you are persued my NPC navy ships... however they do it, no zone should completly block your choices (whether they be moral or amoral) Lack of choice is the key thing wrong with a lot of games.If I want to risk getting blown out of space to kill someone, then I should have that choice but the game should make the consequences of doing so prohibitivly high to put players off doing it.
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Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
I've been away from JG for quite awhile, so I'm curious about this question. As I recall, newbs were generally save from PvP within a station sector and within a jump. Additionally, THE COMMUNITY reacted strongly to unprovoked PK'ing. This, added to bounties, kept PKing to a minimum.
Is that not true? Is there a PK problem in JG that must be addressed in the new version?
I got jumped by a PK'er once near a Quant station (I forget the name of the sector). I was around level 10, in a ship configured for mining and my opponent was in a Solrain fighter. I was outgunned, but fortunately had a light load and enough piloting skill to run around close to the station - but not enough skill to dock at speed LOL. I kept out of his guns long enough to let the station drones take him out. This was my very first PvP encounter and my hands were shaking for an hour afterwards.
One of the thrills of the game is uncertaintiy and danger. I would be suspicious of any attempt at "hand holding."
Er.... see EVE Online, that's one great example. And even then, the safe zones are never completely safe.
Hard to reconcile the desires of people who want no safe zones vs those who won't play a game w/o them (at least while they learn the game).
Best to chose your target market and stay faithful to them, I doubt there's a way to satisfy both the lion and the lamb.
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No safe zones for JG. When I played many years ago the main bases tended to be safe zones purely due to the number of friendly pilots flying around. The bounty system worked well also. Kill a noob near home base and you get a great big dollar sign above your head. The noob is dead but it wasn't log before you joined them.
A very cool feature they are looking to add is helping NPC pilots calling out for help. Imagine if you could do the same and they helped if you had enough standing with them?
You dont need any safe zones. When you begin to play, you are a noob. The harcher conditions......the faster you will gain knowledge about the world.
Never let the weak ones set the rules for everyone else in a MMO.
Example: i recently begin to play Battlefield 2142, and im the worst player ever set foot in that game. Would it be right to set the game at my level? And ruin it for everyone else??
Dont think so, just let the MMos have their way.
FPS's are different than an MMO
Bollocks!
"Safe zones," in some form, are necessary to allow new players freedom to learn the game. The degree of safety and how it is implemented is the question. I think JG has always been good at balancing n00b safety with risk factors in the game.
I feel there should not be any "totally safe" areas. If a PKer is determined to pick off n00bs in protected zones, there shouldn't be anything stopping him. But the cost should be prohibitively high to make such events very rare, with reaction from both game-elements and the community - pretty much as it is now, given station defense drones and community reaction to unwarranted PKing. On the other hand, n00bs should be hesitant to venture far from a station.
Well i think it depends on the world max world size.
Eves 1.0 -0.0 space is a great example of flexibility for players of all walks. A trader can do his thing, a explorer can do his, a pvper can do his, with pressures depending on his or her tastes.
If you don't do a system similar, then there is nothing stopping a large guild from camping a starting area.. unless you do something unrealistic like make guard non-killable or drones that cant be killed... i think that defeats the whole purpose of a free for all space game.
And you cant rely on the community to hold back pkers that's just silly, unless your games only got 200 players, and even then there will b that one dude... or his guild.
Sometimes i like hardcore pvping and large scale wars, other times i like to be a little laid back and play the economic game and craft, or just craft to support my pvp.
Now understand, as I'm sure you do, EVE is absolutely Huge, and has the most powerful server system ever made for gaming. though the didn't start off that way.
Jumpgate has a hill to climb, But its got a bit going for it, and that is its combat mechanics. Ive always thought if EVE had combat mechanics like "Freelancer" id never play another space game other than it. And that's saying a whole whole lot when your standing in my jaded assed shoes..
I mean Jumpgate is EVE's competition, a redheaded orphan that was abandoned that's trying to show its worth a damn..
Ive always been a fan of the underdog, as long as the content keeps coming free and adds to the world and the world expands as it does in EVE, then i have no problem rooting for the little guy.
To bad about Auto Assault.. NCsofty blows a monster Wang anyhow...
I had to be real about it. A pretty dress and red lipstick dont mean shes tight!
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