theres an easy adjustment that can be made in games so that raiding remains fun. have the raid monsters come to you, not you go to them. so for instance a dragon attacks the city, not go to the dragons lair as long as the dragon or whatever mob attacks a specific area at random, then its more of a "fun if you were there" type of thing. all the fun of the massive part with all the crap taken out.
Yea, I'd prefer to see raids become more dynamic than static. A static raid could be fun until you crack the code, after that, it's just rinse and repeat until you can't stomach it anymore. Theres not enough replay value there. Not to mention, if you make this type of raiding a requirement you're going to turn off the majority of your fans.
Of course raiding is the worst thing that ever happened to mmorpgs. And although it isn't technically "FORCED" on anyone only a fool would believe that it is just an optional playstyle that has no impact on other playstyles.
The big problem here is that these games are all about progression (so far). And when the greatest progression is achievable through only one playstyle then that is tantamount to "forcing" people into that particular playstyle. Ok, nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to raid but they are telling you that in this progression game your progression is going to either stop altogether or is always going to be second rate if you don't raid.
Remember that these games rely on character building to provide motivation to people. If you arbitrarily select one particular subset of your customers and allow them to progress higher and further than everyone else...well, is it really a big suprise that everyone else is going to be pissed off?
Look, raiding just plain out sucks. We all know that. Even the people who claim to love it are lying. They hate it too. The test for this is very simple. Ask them if they are in favor of solo/small group content providing EXACTLY the same rewards as raiding with an equal time investment. They will say no.
Ask them why not. They will say, "Because then nobody would raid."
But if people enjoy raiding why wouldn't they raid even if the same rewards could be aquired through solo or small group play?
Answer: nobody actually enjoys raiding. What raiders enjoy is a system that reserves the best stuff for them and screws the people who either don't have time for it or hate it SO much that they just won't put up with it.
Raiding is the thing that everybody hates but a lot of people put up with because it makes them feel better than the people who won't put themselves through it.
1) Time - Raiding takes a specific chunk of time (e.g. organizing, travel,encounter) All MMORPG players do not have that ability to clear out that time.
2) Masses - Raiding takes a large group of people. Massive is subjective. 2-5 group? 6-20? 21-50? Getting that many people in a game to do the same thing for the same amount of time is a hinderance to many players.
3) Money - Raiding with a specidfic time and specific mass of people, passes the cost on to others who will never enjoy that feature. Why would a "small" guild 10-15 people want to pay for a 60 man raid?
4) Content - Raiding in an instance takes out the Massive feeling and the World immersion feeling. Making the populace of your game Slay an instanced boss that has no affect on the world except a big shiny stick of womanizing is just lazy design work. Boring.
I hate many people on one boss raids they are deathly dull. Much more than 10-15 people on one boss encounter is just stupid IMO. I have absolutely no desire to do it and will not pay for a game that tries to make me do it.
Now 40 people against 40 people that is fun or 40 people versus 100 mobs. But 40+ versus 1 boss is possibly the stupidest kind of encounter ever designed.
Many on one encounters are crap, plain and simple.
Of course raiding is the worst thing that ever happened to mmorpgs. And although it isn't technically "FORCED" on anyone only a fool would believe that it is just an optional playstyle that has no impact on other playstyles. The big problem here is that these games are all about progression (so far). And when the greatest progression is achievable through only one playstyle then that is tantamount to "forcing" people into that particular playstyle. Ok, nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to raid but they are telling you that in this progression game your progression is going to either stop altogether or is always going to be second rate if you don't raid. Remember that these games rely on character building to provide motivation to people. If you arbitrarily select one particular subset of your customers and allow them to progress higher and further than everyone else...well, is it really a big suprise that everyone else is going to be pissed off? Look, raiding just plain out sucks. We all know that. Even the people who claim to love it are lying. They hate it too. The test for this is very simple. Ask them if they are in favor of solo/small group content providing EXACTLY the same rewards as raiding with an equal time investment. They will say no. Ask them why not. They will say, "Because then nobody would raid." But if people enjoy raiding why wouldn't they raid even if the same rewards could be aquired through solo or small group play? Answer: nobody actually enjoys raiding. What raiders enjoy is a system that reserves the best stuff for them and screws the people who either don't have time for it or hate it SO much that they just won't put up with it. Raiding is the thing that everybody hates but a lot of people put up with because it makes them feel better than the people who won't put themselves through it.
Very good points.
IMO, giving uber gear rewards for raiding can cause the same problem as giving gear/ability rewards for PvP. In the end, you're only going to increase the gap between players who spend 40 hours a week in game and players who spend 10-20 or less. Eventually, players will be forced to either increase their play time to keep up or quit. Of course, they can always stick around for the lower level, lower rank content, but that area of the game is almost always neglected and over looked in updates.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be rewards for raiding or PvP, I'm just saying that those rewards shouldn't equal a big competitive advantage. Honestly, I do think there are several ways you could pull this off.
also when your use the reverse model ( mobs attack areas) you also open up the game to the potential to affect the gameworld.
for instance :
The ice giant attack: if the ice giants breach the ciditel, the citedal shuts down and can no longer be used by the players until its repaired. ( the citedal serves some specific player purpose)
so you might get a couple of interesting things from the ice giants attack if your lucky, but if you allow them to reach their goal, you lose something in the gameworld for a period of time.
just imagine if the ice giants and the dragons all attacked at once...
with this method, the potential for fun is huge ( even hanging out in town could lead to gameplay), and ive seen this all before in eq during events.
they just didnt know how much potential the events they held had. Apparently no one did.
Not every game forces you to join a guild to raid. Anarchy Online's entire endgame is run by 3rd party chatbots. Only WOW restricts raiding into a guild environment with their week long lockout timers.
No MMORPG forces you to do anything. The issue is what your goals are in the game. If you want "Glowey hand of untimate Uberness" then yes, you will likely have to raid in a game for it. its fairly obvious that although your title is generic, your postsing is directed specifically at WoW. There are plenty of PVE games that are not as hard core tiered and can be quite enjoyable ..even when raiding
Originally posted by Thillian I think the raiding is just badly executed. To remove DKP, why not just add some points (might be reputation) that would be gained by boss kills in a raid, and that you could spend to buy a gear or any other reward (special mounts, special houses ..) Everyone would be getting it at the same rate, and everyone could spend it on any gear they want. To remove long resting, and re-fightning the same mobs, why not remove all trash mob zones, put a couple of very challenging bosses, to reduce the time spent in it, but increase the challenge. Who wants to fight the same trash every day in the same graphical dungeon? The fun is in the challenge, and defeating hard bosses, not in the trash mobs timesink. To remove the need for guilds of having 40 people or 30 people ready for raid, why not add scaling system that would have it's limits (20-50), and would change the difficulty of the bosses based on the number of players in raids (and also maybe the reputation gain that I mentioned at the beginning - bigger guilds more points -> yeh cause it's harder to manage).
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
IMO, giving uber gear rewards for raiding can cause the same problem as giving gear/ability rewards for PvP.
Great point, and I do not see PvP as a solution for end-game to replace raiding.
Raiding and PvP, in my view, are side dishes to 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, and 3) deep Questing. Innovation and creativity to enhance the end-game by having opportunities to participate in the world's politics, societies, develop a manor, manage a farm, operate a player-run tavern, etc.
Many and varied opportunities exist for developers to enhance 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, and 3) deep Questing but they force us to 1) raid or 2) PvP at end-game.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Originally posted by Bakgrind Originally posted by truenorthbg Originally posted by Auspice When blizzard cut down the raid number to 25 they were idiots. Playing with 40 other people in a game is AWESOME.
I think Blizzard's decision to reduce the raid requirements from 40 to 25 was necessary, as the majority of players do not want to participate in zerg-raiding; it is too affected, disorganized, scheduled, predictable, and so forth.
I think you will find you are in the minority. As an aside, I enjoy raiding when it is not coerced but an optional part of gameplay and content.
Overall, from reading your post, I see you love WoW's raiding but you missed the point. Your absolutely right about forced raiding, but the OP makes a good point about raiding with 40 people. But trying to get 40 people and having 40 people through out the duration of the raid is a pain. Blizzard allows you to sign up for battle grounds so you can participate in that content with many people. I really see no reason why they or any other MMO shouldn't allow a person to use the same system as a means of participating in raiding content.
If they switched over to a points system that awarded points instead of items for raid mob and boss kiills then that idea would work. So instead of getting item drops or badges, etc.. you'd get points to spend every time you killed a raid mob or boss. Those points could then be redeemed at a factional npc vendor where you could buy what you wanted. This would go a long ways to remove the drama from raids in terms of loot and in the end would still reward people for showing up even if they could not stay the whole raid.
Originally posted by rungard also when your use the reverse model ( mobs attack areas) you also open up the game to the potential to affect the gameworld. for instance : The ice giant attack: if the ice giants breach the ciditel, the citedal shuts down and can no longer be used by the players until its repaired. ( the citedal serves some specific player purpose) so you might get a couple of interesting things from the ice giants attack if your lucky, but if you allow them to reach their goal, you lose something in the gameworld for a period of time. just imagine if the ice giants and the dragons all attacked at once... with this method, the potential for fun is huge ( even hanging out in town could lead to gameplay), and ive seen this all before in eq during events. they just didnt know how much potential the events they held had. Apparently no one did.
I have been asking for something like that for YEARS! and coincidentally, FFXI does have something like this on their Treasures of Aht Urgan expansion, though it's only for small portions of one city, and yes, actually everything in that particular zone closes down until the attack is over. The downside I guess, is that it doesn't really feel very epic you know? I'd like to climb on a tower somewhere and actually see this big army coming at you (like LOTR: twin towers or return of the king movies) rather than simply having the mobs insta spawn. Let there be like P.A. announcements in the city, and sales NPC's grab their carts of goods and hide, or close their doors, don't simply insta-remove. It should feel very epic, like the end is coming you know?
Originally posted by truenorthbg Kasmar, I am forced to raid when my only option for progression is to raid. When I must raid to progress my character, I am forced to raid. Many people do not like to be forced; in fact, the majority of those reading this (as the poll indicates) and probably around the world dislike raiding. We even dislike raid guilds because we want to join guilds based on community, friendship, maturity, etc. There's no such thing as forced raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't do it. Is it that difficult to understand that you don't HAVE to do anything in a game you don't want to do? You don't even HAVE to play the game at all. In fact, believe it or not, there ARE other games out there. Try one of those if you hate the game you are playing. Pretty simple concept actually.
One need be forced into raiding for it to be massive and multiplayer. Raiding is really just a timesink at the "end-game" to keep people paying [note: paying and not playing the way they enjoy the most and choose.]
NO. Raiding is a PLAYSTYLE. Good players with good friends like to get together with those people and take on very hard content. If you want to make money playing cards you are "forced" to bet. Well, if I wanna get together with a dozen or so friends and hit a dungeon, I guess I'm "forced" to raid. Mainly because, duh, that's just what it's called. Maybe if I called soloing a timesink, you'll see what I mean. You're doing the same thing. Verugan, I have been saying this!! Great point! Why not have 2 groups constitute a raid? People love 10 person raids. I think the developer often wants it 18+ because they can limit content that way. Then play a game with 10 person raids. There are tons of games out there. Why play one you hate. This is just completely stupid. But thanks for letting us know who the dingleberries are. Of course, it's easy to put down something you don't understand, or maybe a bunch of these people suck at the game and got kicked out of raids for wiping or just can't play, as we can see how they can be.
Thank you for the wonderful comments and discussions. People have challenged my thinking, and others have introduced new concepts to raiding. I hope people post more comments. "NEW" is from the eyes of the beholder as everything mentioned already exists.
Soloing is a complete waste of time. I HATE games that force me to solo. This forced soloing has to go when the only way to play effectively and get good stuff is through solo. Why don't they make EVERY solo mob in the game get stronger as the size of the force approaches it. We SHOULD have 70th level epic orcs in newbie area if there is a 25 person raid in the newbie area. Solo dungeons are so boring and repetitive. I don't even have anyone to strategize with or change up tactics with, or even to talk to while I'm hitting 1,2,3,4... Soloing is definitely the worst MMORPG feature.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Originally posted by Orca Originally posted by Thillian I think the raiding is just badly executed. To remove DKP, why not just add some points (might be reputation) that would be gained by boss kills in a raid, and that you could spend to buy a gear or any other reward (special mounts, special houses ..) Everyone would be getting it at the same rate, and everyone could spend it on any gear they want. To remove long resting, and re-fightning the same mobs, why not remove all trash mob zones, put a couple of very challenging bosses, to reduce the time spent in it, but increase the challenge. Who wants to fight the same trash every day in the same graphical dungeon? The fun is in the challenge, and defeating hard bosses, not in the trash mobs timesink. To remove the need for guilds of having 40 people or 30 people ready for raid, why not add scaling system that would have it's limits (20-50), and would change the difficulty of the bosses based on the number of players in raids (and also maybe the reputation gain that I mentioned at the beginning - bigger guilds more points -> yeh cause it's harder to manage).
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
What do you mean by X-Factor?
I think everyone would agree that MC in WoW was about the worst raid zone ever because of all the respawning trash mobs. Where as a raid dungeon like BWL was considered to be hugely more fun to run because trash mobs did not respawn once killed. Of course there were challenging raid mobs and obstacles to overcome but once you killed/overcame them you didn't have to worry about them respawning again until BWL's raid timer reset.
I don't know any game that has FORCED raiding. There are PEOPLE who obsess over raiding. There are games that offer NOTHING besides raiding once you reach max level. Still there is no FORCED raiding anywhere I have seen.
1) World immersion isn't something that should just happen when you reach max level and isn't something that is an end game item. I don't understand why this comment is here at all.
2) Character customization: I've seen you say this before, but not really seen examples of what you mean. What should be customizable at max level to be entertaining enough to replace raids?
3)Deep questing.... examples? Considering the limitations of a games mechanics what do you mean when you keep saying deep questing? Running around to different parts of the world to kill/talk/find things sometimes requiring a group sometimes a raid? I agree games could use more quests at end game, but it doesn't matter how many you have they eventually run out.
I like your sand box ideas, but they just aren't enough to entertain people as evident in SWG which had most of that and no raiding/questing to speak of. They are something that is lacking big time in MMO's for sure.
Raids for the most part have become more casual friendly in both time scope and resources needed. They also are more engaging than typical tank-n-spank EQ raids of old. companies are trying to add new ways to progress characters and continue playing after reaching max level. Different forms of PvP, faction chasing, trade skills, quests, etc. Raids are like Tony Sinclair, best when enjoyed in moderation.
What I think the real problem stems from is the concept of levels. People get so focused on gaining levels that when they run out of levels to gain they must focus on something else.
Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi I think everyone would agree that MC in WoW was about the worst raid zone ever because of all the respawning trash mobs.
Not even close. Veeshans peek in Kunark was god awful zone. 60 SECOND , yes seconds, respawn on trash that could and did easily wipe raids. Not to mention the birth of horrifying key quests.
Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi Originally posted by Orca Originally posted by Thillian I think the raiding is just badly executed. To remove DKP, why not just add some points (might be reputation) that would be gained by boss kills in a raid, and that you could spend to buy a gear or any other reward (special mounts, special houses ..) Everyone would be getting it at the same rate, and everyone could spend it on any gear they want. To remove long resting, and re-fightning the same mobs, why not remove all trash mob zones, put a couple of very challenging bosses, to reduce the time spent in it, but increase the challenge. Who wants to fight the same trash every day in the same graphical dungeon? The fun is in the challenge, and defeating hard bosses, not in the trash mobs timesink. To remove the need for guilds of having 40 people or 30 people ready for raid, why not add scaling system that would have it's limits (20-50), and would change the difficulty of the bosses based on the number of players in raids (and also maybe the reputation gain that I mentioned at the beginning - bigger guilds more points -> yeh cause it's harder to manage).
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
What do you mean by X-Factor?
I think everyone would agree that MC in WoW was about the worst raid zone ever because of all the respawning trash mobs. Where as a raid dungeon like BWL was considered to be hugely more fun to run because trash mobs did not respawn once killed. Of course there were challenging raid mobs and obstacles to overcome but once you killed/overcame them you didn't have to worry about them respawning again until BWL's raid timer reset.
Obviously you havent played either of these dungeons. As the same thing applies for both of them, and the same respawning mobs still occurs in SSC/TK/MH/BT.
When you kill all the trash mob, and then kill the boss, all the previously trash mob, up and until the boss will not respawn anymore. This also applied to MC.
Originally posted by truenorthbg Kasmar, I am forced to raid when my only option for progression is to raid. When I must raid to progress my character, I am forced to raid. Many people do not like to be forced; in fact, the majority of those reading this (as the poll indicates) and probably around the world dislike raiding. We even dislike raid guilds because we want to join guilds based on community, friendship, maturity, etc. There's no such thing as forced raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't do it. Is it that difficult to understand that you don't HAVE to do anything in a game you don't want to do? You don't even HAVE to play the game at all. In fact, believe it or not, there ARE other games out there. Try one of those if you hate the game you are playing. Pretty simple concept actually.
One need be forced into raiding for it to be massive and multiplayer. Raiding is really just a timesink at the "end-game" to keep people paying [note: paying and not playing the way they enjoy the most and choose.]
NO. Raiding is a PLAYSTYLE. Good players with good friends like to get together with those people and take on very hard content. If you want to make money playing cards you are "forced" to bet. Well, if I wanna get together with a dozen or so friends and hit a dungeon, I guess I'm "forced" to raid. Mainly because, duh, that's just what it's called. Maybe if I called soloing a timesink, you'll see what I mean. You're doing the same thing. Verugan, I have been saying this!! Great point! Why not have 2 groups constitute a raid? People love 10 person raids. I think the developer often wants it 18+ because they can limit content that way. Then play a game with 10 person raids. There are tons of games out there. Why play one you hate. This is just completely stupid. But thanks for letting us know who the dingleberries are. Of course, it's easy to put down something you don't understand, or maybe a bunch of these people suck at the game and got kicked out of raids for wiping or just can't play, as we can see how they can be.
Thank you for the wonderful comments and discussions. People have challenged my thinking, and others have introduced new concepts to raiding. I hope people post more comments. "NEW" is from the eyes of the beholder as everything mentioned already exists.
Soloing is a complete waste of time. I HATE games that force me to solo. This forced soloing has to go when the only way to play effectively and get good stuff is through solo. Why don't they make EVERY solo mob in the game get stronger as the size of the force approaches it. We SHOULD have 70th level epic orcs in newbie area if there is a 25 person raid in the newbie area. Solo dungeons are so boring and repetitive. I don't even have anyone to strategize with or change up tactics with, or even to talk to while I'm hitting 1,2,3,4... Soloing is definitely the worst MMORPG feature.
Ok, so I'm going to assume that you are currently playing a game in which you spend a fair amount of time raiding.
Now...how would you feel about it if that game added 10 more levels and a ton of new content, including better loot than anything that has been seen previously, but it was all single person (solo) instances?
In order to get the bigger and better loot you now have to spend your time running solo instances. The loot from these instances makes all previous loot obsolete. You could still do your raids, nobody is forcing you to do the solo instances, but you won't be getting the new and improved loot unless you change your playstyle to mostly soloing.
Are you seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't bitch about it? I think you would.
And this is exactly what games do to soloers and people who prefer small groups. You start out enjoying the game grouping and soloing. Then you hit the high levels and it changes. Suddenly you either raid or you are left out of progression.
THAT is why people get so pissed off about this stuff. Games start out as one thing and then change to something else later on. People invest a lot of time in a game, fall in love with the game, and then BAM...progression is cut off or made second rate for the playstyle they enjoy. Of course people get angry about it. Why shouldn't they.
And developers are entirely to blame for this because they keep sucking in people who don't like raiding with vague promises that nobody will have to raid in their game. Well of course nobody will HAVE to raid. Just like nobody would HAVE to solo if high end progression could only be achieved through solo instances.
For me, it's not just about games that force you to raid in order to see significant progression, it's the fact that developers continue with this mentality that raiders are the only players worthy of epic content and epic rewards. I despise the developers and the players that subscribe to this elitist mentality.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Of course raiding is the worst thing that ever happened to mmorpgs. And although it isn't technically "FORCED" on anyone only a fool would believe that it is just an optional playstyle that has no impact on other playstyles. Pretty much EVERYTHING you said in this post is completely WRONG, and since you did the favor of calling people names, I'll return the favor. Oh, and IF (sorry I just can't keep a straight face through this lol) raiding "has an impact" on other playstyles, fat chance, then quit. Find a game that's better made, because that is completely ludicrous. The big problem here is that these games are all about progression (so far). And when the greatest progression is achievable through only one playstyle then that is tantamount to "forcing" people into that particular playstyle. Ok, nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to raid but they are telling you that in this progression game your progression is going to either stop altogether or is always going to be second rate if you don't raid. This is all through tainted eyes as in very few games raiding is the GREATEST progression. YOU think raiding is the greatest progression, that is the ONLY thing. Better gear? Maybe, but not all the time. Richer? HA, that's a laugh. Working well with others? Probably, but you can get that through grouping too. Tradeskills? Building a home? What? What is so GREAT about raiding progression? You saying it is? Jealous? Remember that these games rely on character building to provide motivation to people. If you arbitrarily select one particular subset of your customers and allow them to progress higher and further than everyone else...well, is it really a big suprise that everyone else is going to be pissed off? Last time I checked raiders still stop at level cap. Don't know any level 71 characters do you? They have the same access to trades. Probably less money than you have. I bet they even stopped at cap for talent points... Their gear might be a little better, depends on your playstyle and what build you're using. There are so many ways to get good gear and build out to take on the content you play that it's all relative, and you just want the shineys. Always striving for the shineys and you're mad because you're not good enough. Look, raiding just plain out sucks. We all know that. Even the people who claim to love it are lying. They hate it too. The test for this is very simple. Ask them if they are in favor of solo/small group content providing EXACTLY the same rewards as raiding with an equal time investment. They will say no. So now I'm a liar too. Well, you are on a roll. 25 (24 in my game) people coordinating together and maximizing their skills to overcome a foe. There must be thousands of football players, basketball players, sports, businesses... Yep, we definitely HATE working together with friends towards a common goal. Just because you have no friends, or maybe you just suck, and nobody wants to die over and over cause of your stupidity. Ask them why not. They will say, "Because then nobody would raid." No, there would be no NEED for those rewards. Most rewards are based upon the content they are geared for. So all you're doing is ELIMINATING a whole tier of gear that would have no use whatsoever. All you're doing is taking away a part of the game JUST BECAUSE you don't do it or are not good enough. What do you have when you take away the icing? Just cake. But if people enjoy raiding why wouldn't they raid even if the same rewards could be aquired through solo or small group play? I do, but they would be pretty silly raids if people in common clothes and pitchforks could beat them. I mean, that's the dumbest thing I read yet. I want challenging content, not solo crap for 25 (24) players. Answer: nobody actually enjoys raiding. What raiders enjoy is a system that reserves the best stuff for them and screws the people who either don't have time for it or hate it SO much that they just won't put up with it. How are you screwed? YOU NEVER ONCE tell us how you're SO underpriviledged and screwed when you get 90% of the content for YOU, and the best of all worlds for YOU. So that isn't enough? You HAVE to have 100% of the content FOR YOU? THIS is the MOST elitist attitude I have ever seen, and if any of you snively, whiney, brats EVER call raiders elitist, just remember what you wrote RIGHT HERE in this forum. Raiding is the thing that everybody hates but a lot of people put up with because it makes them feel better than the people who won't put themselves through it. Stupid idiots is the thing that everybody hates but a lot of people put up with because they pay the bills.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I want challenging and rewarding solo / small group content, not that crappy raiding that gets shoved down our throats in just about every MMO out currently.
You are delusional if you think raiding has no impact on other play styles. Hell, just the fact that developers spend so much resources and time on it with my subscription fees is enough to piss me off, let alone the fact that it ends up making other play styles feel like second class citizens. Raiders do get the most innovative content and the best rewards to boot. It's a rotten and elitist regime that needs to die a horrible death. And it seems my wish may come true as the new games I've been looking at are placing less and less focus on raiding and more on casual and PvP play styles.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Raiders do get the most innovative content and the best rewards to boot. It's a rotten and elitist regime that needs to die a horrible death. And it seems my wish may come true as the new games I've been looking at are placing less and less focus on raiding and more on casual and PvP play styles.
I just wanted to point out something about raid content vs solo/small group content. When designing a raid and game dev can use every single tool available to the players as a requirement to defeating the encounter or dungeon. In solo/small group you don't have that option. If you try for example to require fire spells to defeat an encounter then you essentially mandate a certain class be present or else the encounter is unbeatable. I am putting a fine point on in, but the more classes that can be invited into an encounter the more design options open up for the creators.
Class balance becomes far more problematic in solo based games when you factor in what a class can bring to the table and/or how well it solos. Not to mention the limited tactics.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see more non raid content, but they play an important role for some people. The trouble is making balanced content for those who don't.
Most people talk about loving the "first part" of a game leveling 1-60/70/80 or whatever the level cap is. It is only when they hit max level and feel forced to raid that the game changes. Lets say you remove all those nasty raids. Is the problem solved and the game somehow more enjoyable?
Comments
Yea, I'd prefer to see raids become more dynamic than static. A static raid could be fun until you crack the code, after that, it's just rinse and repeat until you can't stomach it anymore. Theres not enough replay value there. Not to mention, if you make this type of raiding a requirement you're going to turn off the majority of your fans.
Of course raiding is the worst thing that ever happened to mmorpgs. And although it isn't technically "FORCED" on anyone only a fool would believe that it is just an optional playstyle that has no impact on other playstyles.
The big problem here is that these games are all about progression (so far). And when the greatest progression is achievable through only one playstyle then that is tantamount to "forcing" people into that particular playstyle. Ok, nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to raid but they are telling you that in this progression game your progression is going to either stop altogether or is always going to be second rate if you don't raid.
Remember that these games rely on character building to provide motivation to people. If you arbitrarily select one particular subset of your customers and allow them to progress higher and further than everyone else...well, is it really a big suprise that everyone else is going to be pissed off?
Look, raiding just plain out sucks. We all know that. Even the people who claim to love it are lying. They hate it too. The test for this is very simple. Ask them if they are in favor of solo/small group content providing EXACTLY the same rewards as raiding with an equal time investment. They will say no.
Ask them why not. They will say, "Because then nobody would raid."
But if people enjoy raiding why wouldn't they raid even if the same rewards could be aquired through solo or small group play?
Answer: nobody actually enjoys raiding. What raiders enjoy is a system that reserves the best stuff for them and screws the people who either don't have time for it or hate it SO much that they just won't put up with it.
Raiding is the thing that everybody hates but a lot of people put up with because it makes them feel better than the people who won't put themselves through it.
Raiding is bad -
1) Time - Raiding takes a specific chunk of time (e.g. organizing, travel,encounter) All MMORPG players do not have that ability to clear out that time.
2) Masses - Raiding takes a large group of people. Massive is subjective. 2-5 group? 6-20? 21-50? Getting that many people in a game to do the same thing for the same amount of time is a hinderance to many players.
3) Money - Raiding with a specidfic time and specific mass of people, passes the cost on to others who will never enjoy that feature. Why would a "small" guild 10-15 people want to pay for a 60 man raid?
4) Content - Raiding in an instance takes out the Massive feeling and the World immersion feeling. Making the populace of your game Slay an instanced boss that has no affect on the world except a big shiny stick of womanizing is just lazy design work. Boring.
Talk amongst yourselves
I hate many people on one boss raids they are deathly dull. Much more than 10-15 people on one boss encounter is just stupid IMO. I have absolutely no desire to do it and will not pay for a game that tries to make me do it.
Now 40 people against 40 people that is fun or 40 people versus 100 mobs. But 40+ versus 1 boss is possibly the stupidest kind of encounter ever designed.
Many on one encounters are crap, plain and simple.
IMO, giving uber gear rewards for raiding can cause the same problem as giving gear/ability rewards for PvP. In the end, you're only going to increase the gap between players who spend 40 hours a week in game and players who spend 10-20 or less. Eventually, players will be forced to either increase their play time to keep up or quit. Of course, they can always stick around for the lower level, lower rank content, but that area of the game is almost always neglected and over looked in updates.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be rewards for raiding or PvP, I'm just saying that those rewards shouldn't equal a big competitive advantage. Honestly, I do think there are several ways you could pull this off.
Nope, it's not as bad as player housing. I just don't get why anyone wants that in an MMO at all.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
also when your use the reverse model ( mobs attack areas) you also open up the game to the potential to affect the gameworld.
for instance :
The ice giant attack: if the ice giants breach the ciditel, the citedal shuts down and can no longer be used by the players until its repaired. ( the citedal serves some specific player purpose)
so you might get a couple of interesting things from the ice giants attack if your lucky, but if you allow them to reach their goal, you lose something in the gameworld for a period of time.
just imagine if the ice giants and the dragons all attacked at once...
with this method, the potential for fun is huge ( even hanging out in town could lead to gameplay), and ive seen this all before in eq during events.
they just didnt know how much potential the events they held had. Apparently no one did.
Not every game forces you to join a guild to raid. Anarchy Online's entire endgame is run by 3rd party chatbots. Only WOW restricts raiding into a guild environment with their week long lockout timers.
No MMORPG forces you to do anything. The issue is what your goals are in the game. If you want "Glowey hand of untimate Uberness" then yes, you will likely have to raid in a game for it. its fairly obvious that although your title is generic, your postsing is directed specifically at WoW. There are plenty of PVE games that are not as hard core tiered and can be quite enjoyable ..even when raiding
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
Raiding and PvP, in my view, are side dishes to 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, and 3) deep Questing. Innovation and creativity to enhance the end-game by having opportunities to participate in the world's politics, societies, develop a manor, manage a farm, operate a player-run tavern, etc.
Many and varied opportunities exist for developers to enhance 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, and 3) deep Questing but they force us to 1) raid or 2) PvP at end-game.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I think you will find you are in the minority. As an aside, I enjoy raiding when it is not coerced but an optional part of gameplay and content.
Overall, from reading your post, I see you love WoW's raiding but you missed the point.
Your absolutely right about forced raiding, but the OP makes a good point about raiding with 40 people. But trying to get 40 people and having 40 people through out the duration of the raid is a pain. Blizzard allows you to sign up for battle grounds so you can participate in that content with many people. I really see no reason why they or any other MMO shouldn't allow a person to use the same system as a means of participating in raiding content.
If they switched over to a points system that awarded points instead of items for raid mob and boss kiills then that idea would work. So instead of getting item drops or badges, etc.. you'd get points to spend every time you killed a raid mob or boss. Those points could then be redeemed at a factional npc vendor where you could buy what you wanted. This would go a long ways to remove the drama from raids in terms of loot and in the end would still reward people for showing up even if they could not stay the whole raid.
Soloing is a complete waste of time. I HATE games that force me to solo. This forced soloing has to go when the only way to play effectively and get good stuff is through solo. Why don't they make EVERY solo mob in the game get stronger as the size of the force approaches it. We SHOULD have 70th level epic orcs in newbie area if there is a 25 person raid in the newbie area. Solo dungeons are so boring and repetitive. I don't even have anyone to strategize with or change up tactics with, or even to talk to while I'm hitting 1,2,3,4... Soloing is definitely the worst MMORPG feature.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
What do you mean by X-Factor?
I think everyone would agree that MC in WoW was about the worst raid zone ever because of all the respawning trash mobs. Where as a raid dungeon like BWL was considered to be hugely more fun to run because trash mobs did not respawn once killed. Of course there were challenging raid mobs and obstacles to overcome but once you killed/overcame them you didn't have to worry about them respawning again until BWL's raid timer reset.
I don't know any game that has FORCED raiding. There are PEOPLE who obsess over raiding. There are games that offer NOTHING besides raiding once you reach max level. Still there is no FORCED raiding anywhere I have seen.
1) World immersion isn't something that should just happen when you reach max level and isn't something that is an end game item. I don't understand why this comment is here at all.
2) Character customization: I've seen you say this before, but not really seen examples of what you mean. What should be customizable at max level to be entertaining enough to replace raids?
3)Deep questing.... examples? Considering the limitations of a games mechanics what do you mean when you keep saying deep questing? Running around to different parts of the world to kill/talk/find things sometimes requiring a group sometimes a raid? I agree games could use more quests at end game, but it doesn't matter how many you have they eventually run out.
I like your sand box ideas, but they just aren't enough to entertain people as evident in SWG which had most of that and no raiding/questing to speak of. They are something that is lacking big time in MMO's for sure.
Raids for the most part have become more casual friendly in both time scope and resources needed. They also are more engaging than typical tank-n-spank EQ raids of old. companies are trying to add new ways to progress characters and continue playing after reaching max level. Different forms of PvP, faction chasing, trade skills, quests, etc. Raids are like Tony Sinclair, best when enjoyed in moderation.
What I think the real problem stems from is the concept of levels. People get so focused on gaining levels that when they run out of levels to gain they must focus on something else.
Not even close. Veeshans peek in Kunark was god awful zone. 60 SECOND , yes seconds, respawn on trash that could and did easily wipe raids. Not to mention the birth of horrifying key quests.
Oh how I hated that zone with a burning passion.
If they didnt have the X factor in MMO's that would make you want to play month after month... Who would pay their bills? They make re-useable content, so that players keep playing and subscribing.
What do you mean by X-Factor?
I think everyone would agree that MC in WoW was about the worst raid zone ever because of all the respawning trash mobs. Where as a raid dungeon like BWL was considered to be hugely more fun to run because trash mobs did not respawn once killed. Of course there were challenging raid mobs and obstacles to overcome but once you killed/overcame them you didn't have to worry about them respawning again until BWL's raid timer reset.
Obviously you havent played either of these dungeons. As the same thing applies for both of them, and the same respawning mobs still occurs in SSC/TK/MH/BT.
When you kill all the trash mob, and then kill the boss, all the previously trash mob, up and until the boss will not respawn anymore. This also applied to MC.
So i dont know what you are talking about?
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
Soloing is a complete waste of time. I HATE games that force me to solo. This forced soloing has to go when the only way to play effectively and get good stuff is through solo. Why don't they make EVERY solo mob in the game get stronger as the size of the force approaches it. We SHOULD have 70th level epic orcs in newbie area if there is a 25 person raid in the newbie area. Solo dungeons are so boring and repetitive. I don't even have anyone to strategize with or change up tactics with, or even to talk to while I'm hitting 1,2,3,4... Soloing is definitely the worst MMORPG feature.
Ok, so I'm going to assume that you are currently playing a game in which you spend a fair amount of time raiding.
Now...how would you feel about it if that game added 10 more levels and a ton of new content, including better loot than anything that has been seen previously, but it was all single person (solo) instances?
In order to get the bigger and better loot you now have to spend your time running solo instances. The loot from these instances makes all previous loot obsolete. You could still do your raids, nobody is forcing you to do the solo instances, but you won't be getting the new and improved loot unless you change your playstyle to mostly soloing.
Are you seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't bitch about it? I think you would.
And this is exactly what games do to soloers and people who prefer small groups. You start out enjoying the game grouping and soloing. Then you hit the high levels and it changes. Suddenly you either raid or you are left out of progression.
THAT is why people get so pissed off about this stuff. Games start out as one thing and then change to something else later on. People invest a lot of time in a game, fall in love with the game, and then BAM...progression is cut off or made second rate for the playstyle they enjoy. Of course people get angry about it. Why shouldn't they.
And developers are entirely to blame for this because they keep sucking in people who don't like raiding with vague promises that nobody will have to raid in their game. Well of course nobody will HAVE to raid. Just like nobody would HAVE to solo if high end progression could only be achieved through solo instances.
For me, it's not just about games that force you to raid in order to see significant progression, it's the fact that developers continue with this mentality that raiders are the only players worthy of epic content and epic rewards. I despise the developers and the players that subscribe to this elitist mentality.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
nvm, won't read that one either...
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I want challenging and rewarding solo / small group content, not that crappy raiding that gets shoved down our throats in just about every MMO out currently.
You are delusional if you think raiding has no impact on other play styles. Hell, just the fact that developers spend so much resources and time on it with my subscription fees is enough to piss me off, let alone the fact that it ends up making other play styles feel like second class citizens. Raiders do get the most innovative content and the best rewards to boot. It's a rotten and elitist regime that needs to die a horrible death. And it seems my wish may come true as the new games I've been looking at are placing less and less focus on raiding and more on casual and PvP play styles.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't think I could've put it better myself Bahamut1
/bow
I just wanted to point out something about raid content vs solo/small group content. When designing a raid and game dev can use every single tool available to the players as a requirement to defeating the encounter or dungeon. In solo/small group you don't have that option. If you try for example to require fire spells to defeat an encounter then you essentially mandate a certain class be present or else the encounter is unbeatable. I am putting a fine point on in, but the more classes that can be invited into an encounter the more design options open up for the creators.
Class balance becomes far more problematic in solo based games when you factor in what a class can bring to the table and/or how well it solos. Not to mention the limited tactics.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see more non raid content, but they play an important role for some people. The trouble is making balanced content for those who don't.
Most people talk about loving the "first part" of a game leveling 1-60/70/80 or whatever the level cap is. It is only when they hit max level and feel forced to raid that the game changes. Lets say you remove all those nasty raids. Is the problem solved and the game somehow more enjoyable?