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No Crowd Control=dull pvp??
logangregor
Member Posts: 1,524
Let me start out by saying that Ive been following this game for quite some time. Im a huge fan of WAR and ofmmos in general. My first being shadowbane and from there I played Star Wars Galaxies, DAOC, and WoW.
Now in every mmo Ive played there have crowd control abilities. You know them as seduce, stun, mesmerize, fear, sheep, roots, silences and slows (slows to attack speed/casting/run speed).
Im a little concerned that there will be no Crowd Control in WAR. Im not sure if it will game breaking but crowd control just seems like that one thing that should always be there.
For instance, my mage in wow...theres so much CC I dont know where to start. I can steal other peoples buffs and hots, I can silence, I can freeze people in place, I can slow them and there attacks and last not but not least I can Sheep them.
I just cant immagine what a fight would be like between me and a warrior if we were both playing with no cc whatsoever. I bolt him, he keeps running, I bolt him again, he keeps running, I decide to run and he never catches me or I decide to hold my ground and he gets to me and 3 shots me.
With no cc, it just feels like that is taking half the strategy out of pvp.
What do you guys think?
Comments
So let me get this straight, there is no crowd control class (which I usually play) as well as no stealth classes. I was a sorcerer and scout in daoc.
What an interesting mix of class possibilities you can be
In some games too much CC takes the strategy out of pvp. I like buffs and debuffs and limited CC, but I hate anything that leaves a player staring at their keyboard waiting for an effect to wear off.
Where did they say there won't be any CC? I thought they said CC would be in, but not as important as in DAoC for example.
It's not that there won't be CC, there just won't be a CC class....or at least that's my limited understanding.
Correct. They have said there WILL, repeat WILL be CC, but not to the extreme that you see in DAOC or even WoW. They want people to actually be able to play their characters. Not be locked out and killed.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
From Beta Update 5
“I am interested in how this will work for the front load casters, IE Magus, and BW... hmmmmm ... Guess will be like DD mastery, CC mastery, and DOT mastery type?”
- The C&C team is actually making strong efforts to avoid "CC Mastery". Crowd control is a powerful, necessary, and key part of gameplay, but it's also very delicate - if you're unable to control your character for an entire fight, that's horribly frustrating and simply not fun. Bright Wizards, for example, might have one Mastery for direct effects, one for longer-duration effects, and one for area effects - any crowd control abilities that they might have would be scattered through the trees as appropriate.
ly, that won't be as much.
Its very dull to be constantly locked in place for ages, or not being able to control your character(I'm looking at you WoW, and your Fear splls!)
<a href='http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=727954103'><img src='http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature/727954103.png'></a>;
I don't know, seeing as I don't find being frozen or paralyzed over and over while being pummeled by a AoE fire spell any fun. I can't say that I won't miss these types of CC. I see this as a positive change from the current market of MMOs out there and support them 100% on this choice (although the Op has misinterpreted the cast).
You got it straight.
There will be no crowd control class (strictly speaking) nor a stealth class.
According to the devs, they do not want stealth ganking to be a part of their PvP and they do not want players stunned, mezzed or rooted until they die.
Instead, you will have to, you know, fight.
What a concept!
As for the OP's contention that lack of crowd control equals dull PvP, I assure you it is quite the opposite.
Incapacitating enemy players by mezzing, stunning, rooting and snaring (crowd control) actually produces a lack of action in PvP. It simply stops or hinders combat. That, in my opinion, is the dull part.
Allowing players to fight without incapacitating them through crowd control makes for far more active combat. You know, the opposite of dull.
~ Ancient Membership ~
It's sad that people these days cannot see past the horizons of World of Warcraft.
Also sad that the OP says that he cannot imagine what a fight would be like with no CC whatsoever.
This shows a serious lack of MMO experience -- and I blame WoW for this.
Back in old Asheron's Call, there was NO crowd control whatsoever. None. No snares, no mez, nothing. You could vuln someone so that they would take more damage -- but do nothing at all to control the other player.
And, Asheron's Call had some of the most exciting PvP action ever made.
Probably because instead of stopping or preventing players from fighting through CC methods, they let them fight.
~~~
I just wish people would get their heads out of that hole in the ground called World of Warcraft and actually realize and experience a wider variety of MMORPGs.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Also sad that the OP says that he cannot imagine what a fight would be like with no CC whatsoever.
This shows a serious lack of MMO experience -- and I blame WoW for this.
Back in old Asheron's Call, there was NO crowd control whatsoever. None. No snares, no mez, nothing. You could vuln someone so that they would take more damage -- but do nothing at all to control the other player.
And, Asheron's Call had some of the most exciting PvP action ever made.
Probably because instead of stopping or preventing players from fighting through CC methods, they let them fight.
~~~
I just wish people would get their heads out of that hole in the ground called World of Warcraft and actually realize and experience a wider variety of MMORPGs.
I HATED ASHERONS CALL. Im glad you liked it. I couldnt stand all the jumping.
Dont give WoW so much credit in regards to CC. DAOC had it, Shadowbane had it, Im sure EQ had it. CC for me breaks up the fight.
And to all this.. "someone being CC'd till they die" typically no CC in WoW lasts that long. In WoW there are trinkets to get you out of CC, there racials to get you out of CC and there are even class abilities to
get you out of CC. CC in a fight in WoW does not slow the game down whatsoever. If anything it just adds another layer of flavor.
With regards to CC and WoW there is no CC class in that game either. Bliz took another direction with it and gave CC to everyone.
Anyways, Im glad that there will be SOME cc in the game.
I actually find crowd control highly frustrating in PVP. I want to fight, not stand around watching everyone else fight while I wait for mesmerize to wear off. There are other ways to make PVP interesting
Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com
Since you have played DAoC, i'm guessing you can relate to the frustration of instant cast AOE Mez.
To answer your question, what do I think?
I think Mythic noticed the importance of making PvP fun for everyone, not just the CC player.
There is CC in Warhammer, but its short and has diminishing returns. There is no CC class, but most classes have some sort of CC.
It's sad that people these days cannot see past the horizons of World of Warcraft.
Also sad that the OP says that he cannot imagine what a fight would be like with no CC whatsoever.
This shows a serious lack of MMO experience -- and I blame WoW for this.
Back in old Asheron's Call, there was NO crowd control whatsoever. None. No snares, no mez, nothing. You could vuln someone so that they would take more damage -- but do nothing at all to control the other player.
And, Asheron's Call had some of the most exciting PvP action ever made.
Probably because instead of stopping or preventing players from fighting through CC methods, they let them fight.
~~~
I just wish people would get their heads out of that hole in the ground called World of Warcraft and actually realize and experience a wider variety of MMORPGs.
I HATED ASHERONS CALL. Im glad you liked it. I couldnt stand all the jumping.
Dont give WoW so much credit in regards to CC. DAOC had it, Shadowbane had it, Im sure EQ had it. CC for me breaks up the fight.
And to all this.. "someone being CC'd till they die" typically no CC in WoW lasts that long. In WoW there are trinkets to get you out of CC, there racials to get you out of CC and there are even class abilities to
get you out of CC. CC in a fight in WoW does not slow the game down whatsoever. If anything it just adds another layer of flavor.
With regards to CC and WoW there is no CC class in that game either. Bliz took another direction with it and gave CC to everyone.
Erm everyone did not have CC...Shamans lacked any CC what so ever. We have snares, but I don't consider snares a form of CC.Anyways, Im glad that there will be SOME cc in the game.
I'm happy with the overall direction that WAR is taking towards pvp, because in games like WoW I experienced how it feels to be CC'd to death many times. Such as a Rogue stunlocking me to death, or a lock fearing me to death.
Sure I had my trinket which could remove stuns/roots once every 5 minutes, but that's only if I had it on while I was questing. Also I had my tremor totem to break fear, but they would just wand it and try again lol.
Basically my point is that to much CC can be no fun, especially to the class' that have no CC what so ever. It's really no fun just watching your character die with no control over the outcome.
I think that's why I liked shaman so much, because it was very straight forward and my opponent can fight me 100 percent through the battle. So I look forward to the all out battles that will be held in WAR.
Snares are CC
Anything that limits or prohibits movement/action is CC.
Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com
Shaman definitely have CC.
Earthshocking me while I cast isnt CC?
Frost shocks, snares, and earthstomp if your a tauren.
I know that many of the DAOC crowd dont care for CC because well if they have only played DAOC are used to ridiculous caster stuns and aoe mez. FYI there was only one class in daoc if I remember correctly that had instant aoe mez and they had to do it within close range...like right up onto you close.
But the CC of WoW like I mentioned earlier, has been nerfed to ridiculous levels and everyone has trinkets to get out of it. Its a minor set back at most for most charachters. Ok for instance, for me Im a Undead Ice Mage. If I get feared I can A-trinket out of it, B-Will of the Forsaken (class racial) out of it or C- Ice block out of that and anything. Some of my decent damage comes in the way of my CC. If I do damage to someone while there frozen they get hit harder and my ice spells have a higher chance to crit.
But enough about wow, I feel like Im rambling on here. Thats what happens when you go to bed at 1245 and your wife makes you get up with my youngest before 7am.
I like the approach to CC that WAR is taking. No one specializes in it but most everyone gets some form of it. There are snares and similar abilities, they just don't last forever. They are more to break someones stride or delay them for a moment or even just slow them down a bit so you can catch them and pummel them to death.
Of course, this game introduces a new form of crowd control - being able to physically block the way of the enemy. Now tanks can literally block the advance to a caster by simply getting in the way. While not the same sort of CC ability people are use to do not discount what someone who learns to use this ability to the fullest can do to protect his weaker allies.
We are talking about classes with the ability to completely control another player from beginning to end of the fight. ***I'm pretty sure the player talking about the shaman knew that a snare was CC*** So, I don't know why, even a forum rep didn't understand what the point was.
I will try to make this clear. WoW is what EA-Mythic is talking about when they didn't add a stealth class or a CC class. (doesn't mean there won't be hiding, invisibility, or CC though) All of these things are planned to be very limited in use.
Ok, moving on. If you were a Mage, you COULD CC your opponent for the majority of the battle. They were so strong in some cases that all they had to do was sheep you, (oh, you have a trinket), sheep you again, (oh, you used an ability), sheep you AGAIN. Then they would fire up their most powerful spell, cast it a few times before you could close range, then if you weren't already dead, they would ice nova.. (now you are moving at like.. 20% speed) and proceed to finish you off. If sheep wasn't in WoW, the mage class wouldn't be able to do things like that.
Let's look at the rogue. I played a rogue extensively, all the way to 70. I quit shortly after. Rogues can gouge(mez-like), and then they have multiple stuns that can be used after that, which can leave your opponent standing there for about 10-12 seconds.. just waiting to see if they have a shot at doing ANYTHING before they die. And then, if the rogue hasn't killed you by the end of the stun. They would vanish, then stun you for another 10 seconds. And THEN. If they somehow haven't killed you yet, vanish, a rogue with the "preperation" ability could reset all of their cooldowns, then stun you again for about 20 seconds. I know this, because I did it numerous times. A trinket or ability could rarely get you out of the stuns long enough to react to anything. Mages were the hardest for me to kill because they could blink(teleport) during my stuns. But if I could get to them again before they CC'd me, then they couldn't blink again before I could kill them.
Warlock? Death coil, fear fear fear and then... fear again. If you weren't dead yet.. seduce, fear fear fear some more. Now as a rogue, warlocks were easy to kill due to their fears being interrupted by stun, and they have cloth armor. But for most, it was horrible to watch your character running in random directions for the entire fight until you reach your final resting place, face down in the dirt.
And by the way, the nerfs you are talking about in WoW aren't good enough. You can still CC someone to death. They obviously failed if they were trying to make a difference with those changes. Every class has a way to counter every other class. But you have very limited options, and depending on cooldowns, you may not have any at all.
Here is the point. There shouldn't be any classes that RELY on CC to survive. It slows down battle. No one wants to have no control for a half minute over their character. Then have to get resurrected or have a 10 minute run back to their body.
So I will again repeat for the ignorant. There WILL be CC. It WILL be limited. Classes won't DEPEND on CC. You will have to FIGHT to kill your opponent. Interesting concept, fighting.. isn't it?
I wholeheartedly agree with DAS1337 on this issue. CC was a major point of contention for me in WoW. It would often cause me to simply exit out of the game after being killed because of multiple people using it against me repeatedly, preventing me from even attempting to fight them back.
I fondly remember CC in WoW. LOL This guy was a a master of CC check out the video at 12 minutes 40 seconds he fights I think 93 mobs at the same time.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5767167495196384205
You have to get your facts straight. There will be CC, but it will not be such an adventage as in other MMO games. CC will not decide the outcome of the battle and that's what EAMythic told us.
Also sad that the OP says that he cannot imagine what a fight would be like with no CC whatsoever.
This shows a serious lack of MMO experience -- and I blame WoW for this.
Back in old Asheron's Call, there was NO crowd control whatsoever. None. No snares, no mez, nothing. You could vuln someone so that they would take more damage -- but do nothing at all to control the other player.
And, Asheron's Call had some of the most exciting PvP action ever made.
Probably because instead of stopping or preventing players from fighting through CC methods, they let them fight.
~~~
I just wish people would get their heads out of that hole in the ground called World of Warcraft and actually realize and experience a wider variety of MMORPGs.
I HATED ASHERONS CALL. Im glad you liked it. I couldnt stand all the jumping.
Dont give WoW so much credit in regards to CC. DAOC had it, Shadowbane had it, Im sure EQ had it. CC for me breaks up the fight.
And to all this.. "someone being CC'd till they die" typically no CC in WoW lasts that long. In WoW there are trinkets to get you out of CC, there racials to get you out of CC and there are even class abilities to
get you out of CC. CC in a fight in WoW does not slow the game down whatsoever. If anything it just adds another layer of flavor.
With regards to CC and WoW there is no CC class in that game either. Bliz took another direction with it and gave CC to everyone.
Anyways, Im glad that there will be SOME cc in the game.
Maybe the game isn't for you. One of the things I am really hating about mmorpg players is how they want something different but are quick to want features from other games so they aren't so different. This game will have CD which is it's own kind of CC. You can't pass through opponents so you have to overcome them to move on. Choke points may exist but so could flanking.