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Darkfall is too good to be true
tylerthedrui
Member Posts: 304
http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?m=200710
Articles like this only get me all giddy and make me want to cry - full knowing that I love every concept in this game, yet for some fucked up reason, will never get to play it.
I've been disappointed by MMORPGs for almost a decade now, and when I graduate college, will be shipped to some undisclosed remote location by my employer (mining) where there will be no high speed internet.
I almost shed a tear when I first saw a darkfall movie on youtube. fuck it, I don't have to be a man. I admit it, i shed a tear. I was so happy they were finally making a game like darkfall. Now, I'm filled with sadness, full knowing that no playerbase or developer will ever support such a game (who need fun in MMORPGs?). On one end, we have retarded entrepreneurs who think they can steal WoW's playerbase. On the other, a bunch of PvE-loving weaklings, still suckling on the tit of their over-tolerant parents while they contemplate moving out of the basement next decade. As long as these people exist, there can never be a game like darkfall.
People will continue to walk the linear path towards better items and more gold - creating copious ammounts of virtual wealth that would not ammount to the worth of a used reel of toilet paper. The pain, drudge, and misery of the gear grind will only make humanity a little bit more miserable, with nothing to show for it.
After playing thousands of hours of MMORPGs, it hurts to see such a hopeful prospect, which will not exist, and would be half-baked if it did.
Comments
Eh, there can be a game like darkfall. The problem is the development. Anyone who can create a game, and has the drive to make something like darkfall *can* do it. What they plan on implementing will take a lot of time to do and, in turn, will take a lot of money.
I'm not one to say whether Darkfall will or won't come out, or when it will come out, or if it will still be "Darkfall" when it comes out. But the idea is out there. If Darkfall doesn't do it, someone will.
It's really a matter of time. The worst thing that could happen would be having Darkfall come out and have a completely uninterested community. This happens when the world isn't quite ready for games like Darkfall.
All we can really do is wait and see, and hopefully the community will mature in time for its (or something similars) release
I don't think it's that the world isn't "ready" for a game like Darkfall.
It's that we've already had games like Darkfall, and they had very small communities in a niche market. Pre-Trammel UO, Shadowbane, DaoC FFA servers... not all too popular.
So who will attempt to create a game that history shows will only ever capture a niche market?
Who will invest in a company that only plans to reach a small, though highly vocal community with their product?
So I wouldn't say that it is "too good to be true." I'd say that it's "too unmarketable to be true."
Whether or not it would be a good game or that they have good ideas is irrelevant.
Please don't take this as a flame post, it's not. It's simply reality.
Though DF fans like the OP would do very well to encourage more support for their game if they didn't sound like elitists and totally immature name-callers. You're hurting the DF community more then you are helping it.
And like most things that are 'To Good To Be True', it isn't
DF == Vaporware
A scam that is being run on some pretty gullible investors.
Anyone that has been watching the MMORPG world for the past few years should be able to see DF for what it really is, a fake project with no real possibility of ever being released.
I agree completely about the market for this particular game style being very small. At least from what we have seen.
Fortunately the battle style was supposedly modeled after Mount & Blade, which is something that hasn't been done before in the MMO community.
In all actuality very few games that have come out with a sandbox feel and open ended gameplay rarely have enough financial support to make the game worthwhile.
In a recent post I mentioned how investors can look back on the state of each successful game in recent history and notice that all linear, class based MMO's with similar gameplay styles have all generated a strong steady income. In fact, I believe that was the whole driving factor to SWG's NGE. They literally took a somewhat open ended sandbox and streamlined it into a linear style for financial gain.
This isn't to say that sandbox style play is not popular or cannot generate more revenue then previous games have. It's just saying that to this date, no games have been created in complete working order, defining the genre.
That is one reason why I feel that the world isn't "ready" for a game such as Darkfall. Linear gameplay has take the largest hold of the market. Just recently have developers decided a free targeting system may be a good way to go. If Darkfall (or any similar game developer) can maximize this effort by opening a completely sanbox world with a solid combat system (hopefully using Mount & Blades system) I think it could bring in more then a few hundred thousand subscribers.
You have to realize that it is NOT soley the "sandbox vs. linear" difference that makes a game like WoW more popular then a game like EVE.
It is certainly a factor, but there are dozens if not hundred of other factors.
If you made WoW a open ended, sandbox style game and turned EVE into what many describe as "linear," would EVE be the 9.3million pound Gorilla and WoW the successful niche game?
Just because the type of game has been done doesnt mean that they have been done well. It is much harder to create a good sandbox style MMORPG than a linear type MMORPG and the reason is that for a sandbox style MMORPG you have to create a dynamic virtual world. Much harder than creating a linear single player like game like WoW.
But in general I think they are destined to be less popular simply because it takes more brains and innovativity to be succesful in sand box style MMORPGs. And sadly since MMORPGs have become mainstream now it means that the average player has the brains the size of a peanut and want everything easy (read casual) so they wont be succesful in something that requires mental capacity and dedication so they wont play it.
It is easy to follow a straight path from A to B and not having to worry about dying or if you do die not have to worry about losing anything. And unfourtanetely, juding from the success of WoW and other semi-successes like LOTR, that is what the market seem to want.
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I'd say they are destined to be less popular because of people like you playing them.
Cheers.
Strangely enough that is quite possibly the toughest thing to answer. Games are only as good as their developers can make them. Eve is successful in its own right.
Some times things are just the way they are. Why is WoW more popular then EverQuest 2 or Lord of the Rings Online?
They playability is there, the money is there, and the development has always been there for Blizzard.
By trying to change that gameplay to a completely sanbox style would be taking away from what,, at this point, makes the game successful which is simplicity in it's raw form. No loud bells, now shrill whistles.
EVE however, IS successful, but it is also a niche game for the simple fact that 1) The IP is not widely known, and 2) The gameplay isn't simplistic enough for the "average" gamer.
I can only speculate on DarkFall, what can be speculated. The combat is based on a game that I play religiously. If Mount & Blade had an online mode, I would play nothing else. This combat system is easy to pick up, hard to master, and exciting every time you're battling.
What it will eventually boil down to is the ease of combat with the integration of community and economy which is easily done, but rarely done well in a sandbox style game of this magnitude.
Some very valid points.
However, I must argue against this term everyone keeps using... the "average gamer."
How do you define the "average gamer?"
I'm curious...
Strangely enough that is quite possibly the toughest thing to answer. Games are only as good as their developers can make them. Eve is successful in its own right.
Some times things are just the way they are. Why is WoW more popular then EverQuest 2 or Lord of the Rings Online?
They playability is there, the money is there, and the development has always been there for Blizzard.
By trying to change that gameplay to a completely sanbox style would be taking away from what,, at this point, makes the game successful which is simplicity in it's raw form. No loud bells, now shrill whistles.
EVE however, IS successful, but it is also a niche game for the simple fact that 1) The IP is not widely known, and 2) The gameplay isn't simplistic enough for the "average" gamer.
I can only speculate on DarkFall, what can be speculated. The combat is based on a game that I play religiously. If Mount & Blade had an online mode, I would play nothing else. This combat system is easy to pick up, hard to master, and exciting every time you're battling.
What it will eventually boil down to is the ease of combat with the integration of community and economy which is easily done, but rarely done well in a sandbox style game of this magnitude.
I just want to add here that the reason I think WoW is such a huge success is not only its casual friendliness it is also because Blizzard targetted their own, already existing and huge fanbase as well as people new to MMORPGs. It was a brilliant marketing scheeme. Add this to the robustness of Blizzard games and you have a recipe for success.
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I would define the average gamer as a person that plays a minimum of 8 hours a week and a maximum of no more then 25. A user that looks for easy action (such as a pick up and play interface) and a simple reward system. (They get rewarded periodically yet often through gameplay).
Such games include WoW, CoX, EQ2 and most mainstream games not all of which have become popular.
I would suppose the average gamer would be one that is not interested in reading a 20 page manual or going through an hour of tutorials before they can start playing the actual game.
For me, its not the open ended gameplay I care about. In games like those, for example, shadowbane, I dont have the time to collect 1,000,000,0000 gold to build a kingdom. I always just play the soldier. I am more interested in the fighting style. I hate WoW, got bored of shadowbane, and played guild wars and city of heroes for a little. I absolutely hate the click and watch my guy attack style of fighting. It takes little, if any skill (I will just say that for all u WoW who claim the fighting is 100% skill based, btw, I love swinging my sword and hitting someone whose 5 feet ovr my head, it helps alot...) I want a game with Oblivion-style fighting (a little more advanced, but still a good start), or something like Mount & Blade. If anyone else has an opinion like I do on this, check out age of conan, if it werent for that, and, I will admit, the girls, I wouldnt even give that game a chance. I think linear gameplay is fine, whatever, just put some skill into it and take away all the grinding. I dont have 11 hrs a day to sit there watching my guy attack enemies. Create a game where as the creatures gain higher lvls, they gain better fighting techniques (like blocking more of ure attacks, being tricky with their swings, and using better logic during the fight) A game where ppl who suck at the game can fight creatures under their lvl and still lvl, where ppl who are average can fight creatures their lvl and lvl a little faster, and where ppl like me (I tend to be in the top on the skill based games) who are skilled and dont have lots of time can go destroy some creatures that are a higher lvl then them and lvl quickly. If that is to much to ask, then atleast speed up the games and make there be more creatures, especially old-school isometric games (learn from the almighty d2, make mobs and make creatures die faster) I honostly do not care for DF's freeworld. It will, and dont deny it cause if they dont It will become and over-powered newb fest, cost a $hit load of money and alot of time to make a kingdom. I just love the idea that fighting actually takes skill.
Anywho...
I think that's a fair and honest definition, and I agree for the most part with all you say.
Now, would you say that the "average gamer" by your definition is any less capable or less intelligent then the "hardcore" gamer who - plays more then 25 hours, looks for difficult action and a more complex/deep reward system, would not object to reading a 20 page manual and/or going through an hour of tutorials?
It seems to me that trying to promote your playstyle, and get others to embrace it by insulting the people you are trying to convert is a less then brilliant move.
I find it ironic that very often when these discussions come up, be it Darkfall, EVE, UO or whatever, the arguing technique is ALWAYS this, the pre-adolescent "IF you do not do this you are a coward/idiot", or both.
Honestly, how old are you when you argue like that?
How smart are you?
How ignorant are they when in the same breath they not only try to come of as intelligent, but by some twist of their mind they actually think they are?
I do play EVE, I do like the sandbox style, I absolutely loath the people that are trying to promote it in this manner.
People like that should not be allowed to talk in favor of anything, unless it is a freak show or the special olympics.
Why are they doing this, really?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I don't believe that a hardcore gamer is, in any way more capable of anything than an average (or casual) gamer other then the simple facet of time management.
Hardcore players traditionally aren't known for only playing one hour a day. I would just think (and of course I have no statistical data to back this up) that an average gamer would much rather enjoy their time spent working towards a short term goal with immediate rewards. All the while not incurring as much penalty for failure while achieving these goals.
Questions:
Would you rather build a house one room at a time or wait until the whole house can be built at once?
Would you rather learn 4 languages you may not ever speak complete, or would you learn just the languages you need, but not ever be able to master them?
very interesting..
I'd have to say I'd build the house a room at a time so that at least I have SOME roof over my head when it rains, because it'll always rain sometime. *There's probably another metaphor for something game related in there too....*
I don't understand the language question lol. Would I rather completely learn 4 languages but never speak them? or learn just the language I need to speak but never master that one language? Is that it?
If that is the case, I'd say learn just the language I need to speak but never master that one language. Because if you know 4 languages but never use them, what's the point in knowing them? The feeling of accomplishment from knowing that you did that, even if no one else knows?
It's a game, I'd rather my achievements be known to others. It's a social game (MMOGs) so I'd like to be able to talk about and show off my achievements to others. True, I may never master a specific part of the game, but the fun is in doing these things with other players. I've never been the "best" at anything in a MMOG, but I have been the "best that my friends/guild knows" and that is enough for me.
very interesting..
I'd have to say I'd build the house a room at a time so that at least I have SOME roof over my head when it rains, because it'll always rain sometime. *There's probably another metaphor for something game related in there too....*
I don't understand the language question lol. Would I rather completely learn 4 languages but never speak them? or learn just the language I need to speak but never master that one language? Is that it?
If that is the case, I'd say learn just the language I need to speak but never master that one language. Because if you know 4 languages but never use them, what's the point in knowing them? The feeling of accomplishment from knowing that you did that, even if no one else knows?
It's a game, I'd rather my achievements be known to others. It's a social game (MMOGs) so I'd like to be able to talk about and show off my achievements to others. True, I may never master a specific part of the game, but the fun is in doing these things with other players. I've never been the "best" at anything in a MMOG, but I have been the "best that my friends/guild knows" and that is enough for me.
The reason I asked those questions - You like to see your reward while you work so you build one room at a time. You want to see things coming together so you know. This is a primary factor in picking an MMORPG. I would much rather see my character come together as I level him up, receive a reward when I complete a mission or down a foe. Know that I'm always working towards a goal.
I asked you about the languages because it's a great analogy to how current MMOs are being played right now.
You can choose Class A - which specializes in a melee attack, a long range attack, traps and healing, OR you can choose Class B - which specializes in 2 types of range attacks, a sneak attack and defense move.
Now you may never use two of those skills, or you may use all of them. The problem is, you are already the master of those 4 items for each class.
Personally I would rather be able to use the skills I want to use, and not be defined as a "class" specifically. Basically you said you'd rather just use the language you actually know you need to learn. Who wouldn't? In it's simplest form, linear gameplay, leaves average gamers like myself, being forced to spend time using skill sets, that I end up not needing, wanting, or fully understanding.
This is kind of how I feel when I start a new game, it has some great elements, but in order to get the full experience of everything I want to do, I have to reroll a character, and spend time "counter playing" which end up being time consuming more then anything, just to try a new skill out.
I have to stand by masked weasel when it comes to the point of whether or not players like linear or sandbox style gaming.
Certainly, both of those styles are classes and are easily defined - but whether they attract gamers will depend more upon the particular game than on the style itself.
As much as I dislike it, WoW is an extremely well programmed game - polished to perfection, with few barriers to entry. The reason people play wow is because it is a great game, not because they woke up one morning and said 'awesome, a linear MMORPG with gear-based stat progression!". In fact, most WoW players were not familiar with MMORPGs before it's release.
Shadowbane, the most 'sandboxy' MMORPG, was ridden with technical failure, horrid graphics, and had the worst launch of any MMORPG to date (unless you don't count the first month as a launch, since nobody was able to get online after all the servers crashed). Some will argue that nobody played shadowbane because it was sandboxy - but it is clear to me that shadowbane has more failures as a computer program, and as a game, than it does as a mmorpg.
Players tend to gravitate towards successful games, rather than genres. Hell, many of us who did not play MUDs were not interested in MMORPGs until they appeared. This market reminds me of the phrase "If you build it they will come".
If you don't like it, don't play it.
800 million subscribers cannot lie
Good points Kaiphas, although we're probably talking about 8 million players, not 800... ;c)
WoW is such a success, because it is polished and easy to get into. That's why a lot of people (me included) play it, despite its shortcomings (grinding). I never understood the WoW bashing. But people tend to stand out, that's why it's in to bash WoW, because it is popular with the "unwashed" masses.
Me, I'm probably old enough that I no longer care what the "1337" folks say, I play what I like. ;c)
But I would love to give Darkfall a try, if it ever comes out, that is...
I think you have totally missed the point here and would class you not as an average gamer but a mindless gamer. i.e. one that does not wan't to have to think too hard or make too many decisions in game.
Generally people who are intelligent need something that a least causes a number of braincells to be required just by the logical nature in which their minds work. There will be exceptions but generally it is the case that these people are more suited to sandbox games or ones which are well designed.
The problem is that as you move outside of a sandbox environment you start to include the masses of which 85% are noit really that intelligent at all and just want to have fun, the remaining 15% a majority of more inteligent people will want fun + complexity which to them is fun but to lesser mortals it is not.
It is horrible to classify people in such a way but sadly it is a fact of life, with the advent of cheaper access to the internet and games like WoW which have introduced simple cheap fun to the masses it is the case that developing a design that catches all is tricky.(generally resulting in lame features such as global A-Houses/Instant transportation/Global chat for peepes who have a life).
Skill based allows this , get faction right and map the world correctly and you meet both PvE and PvP requirements and that problem goes away. Make the game appear to be uncomplicated and you will cater for everyone.
What will be amnusing is when the average joe takes on someone who understands the complex system darkfall is trying to develop/implement and they cannot understand why they are dead...
Anyway a game I am looking forward to sometime in the future.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
A sandbox game does not mean a game for the most intelligent. Everyone should have a place in a sand box game, like being an ogre and bashing stuff. Sandbox is that, you can do anything.
I was an ogre in Everquest (classic EQ, before $$$$OE destroyed it), I hit my trainer by mistake when I was level 2, he killed me with a single blow for 535 hit points, I learned so soon
I agree. A Sandbox game can cater to all intelligence levels. And will be funner for everyone.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
800 million subscribers cannot lie
I really enjoyed reading the original post here. Yeah I agree with your assestment this MMO does sound a bit too good to be true. I'm used to only getting half the features I want- not the full cake. So I have some doubts but I still occasionally visit DFO forums, etc to share ideas with the community
And its so nice to be able to visit a community and not get treated 'second class'. you know how it is in PVE based MMOs. If a PVPer dares to ask for a feature your request gets crowded out by many angry PVE fans that the developer should not be spending time catering to 'your kind'
I'm a firm believer in tight communities. I hope this one will be a close nit PVP based community and it will come out sometime in some form
My only concern is, lets just hope it is true.
Actually there are alot of people playing WoW and others right now wishing for a game like Darkfall, or close to it. The truth is, that more people want a sandbox game with freedom, then anything else. And thats what darkfall is about, Freedom, and PvP. But the pvp ties into the freedom, because you can do it whenever you want, wherever you want, however you want.
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