Originally posted by lomiller This flexibility, however, comes at a price. Its easy to make a character that vastly overpowers the content, this would never work in an MMO because everyone would choose the exact same builds.
according to this logic Magic: The Gathering would not work because surely everyone would use the same deck? Surely in Guild Wars everyone uses the same deck according to this logic.
There is a thing called 'balance' that developers must do to make difficult builds viable.
being able to jump to avoid a projectile will mean a Level 1 character does not die in one hit when confronted by a Level 50. being able to dodge an explosion will mean PVPers can "Use Terrain For Cover" to avoid death being able to dodge an explosion means "zerging" is way less effective and the decisions and abilities of one man can make a bigger impact being able to dodge places less emphasis on "character skill" and more on "player skill" meaning that Class imbalances are less glaring. This means a Warrior does not have to die when confronted by a Mage
Just one little thing like 'realtime dodging' can give us so much. I suppose it is 'twitch' but it also involves "skill"
First of all, I would like to clarify that I never mentioned anything about dodging. Jumping up to avoid a strike is one thing. However, jumping because there is bug in programming that let's you avoid damage that you should have taken is something completely different. Of course not all FPS games are like this, but a lot of them do seem to reward "learning the quirks of the game" over employing tactics.
I did not mean to imply that tactics are meaningless in FPS and if I did, I am sorry. However, I do believe that the RPG is a better platform for making tactics important. Putting your avatar in a favorable position in a RPG is more important, because you do not have the twitch skills to bail your avatar out of the situation if you don't.
I don't believe that player controlled dodging is really going to have much effect on a zerg rush. As a matter of fact, if you are being overwhelmed by a large group it might be better to let the computer control the dodging (you could be using a different definition of zerging than I am). However, if you were smart enough and had enough foresight not to let yourself get in that situation in the first place....
Using tactical skills could trump class imbalance just as easy as twitch skills could. Plus, there as the added benefit of making hardware issues (i.e. internet connection, server load, lag, etc.) less important.
I am not a proponent of the elimination of all "twitch" or arcade action in MMORPGs. This would create incredibly bland games. However, I do believe that they should be tertiary to "tactics" and the skill of the avatar.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Guild Wars is the closest to skill based pvp that I have come across. For the most part no developers are even bothering to make skill based games. Sometimes they might pay some fast talking PR slave to try and pitch the game as requiring skill, but the games I have in mind that have done that sure as hell don't remotely compare to Guild Wars.
P.S. The first time I PvPd in WoW I was using a max level and very well equippped shadowpriest on a friend's account. On about half of the 2v2 matchups I could activate my DoTs and go AFK to win. Half of the other 50% of the time I actually had to stay at the keyboard and reapply the DoTs or silence or mana burn (shucks I am so awesome at hammering those buttons at the right target).
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
While I agree that the MMO market could use some diversity, the OP's style of posting makes me glad I'm not playing the same game he is. I think my head would implode.
I don't believe that player controlled dodging is really going to have much effect on a zerg rush. As a matter of fact, if you are being overwhelmed by a large group it might be better to let the computer control the dodging (you could be using a different definition of zerging than I am). However, if you were smart enough and had enough foresight not to let yourself get in that situation in the first place....
Realtime dodging has, for many years, helped alleviate 'zerging'.
Realize in Guild Wars (pre-Factions) / CoX / WoW in PVP guilds I was apart of on ventrillo our leader calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, and spike them with our least resisted ability. Targets die pretty much instantly if caught off guard. The lack of being able to use Terrain for Cover is instant doom in PVP.
I believe Guild Wars has best counter though amongst current MMO due to anti-spike buffs, etc.
The ability to use Terrain for cover and dodge enemy fire will help players avoid instant death.
Also, due to friendly fire a force of newbies will be more likely to kill themselves rather then their enemies. This is why in many FPS games Friendly Fire (FFA) is on. A zerg trying to breach a tight corridor lobbing grenades will be really self destructive.
Using tactical skills could trump class imbalance just as easy as twitch skills could. Plus, there as the added benefit of making hardware issues (i.e. internet connection, server load, lag, etc.) less important. I am not a proponent of the elimination of all "twitch" or arcade action in MMORPGs. This would create incredibly bland games. However, I do believe that they should be tertiary to "tactics" and the skill of the avatar.
About Server Load there are games old as Asheron's Call 1 that has had realtime dodging and more emphasis on player skill
There are next gen titles that will feature full blown Havok integration on Server side in any case. Full blown Havok integration (realtime physics) is way more complicated then such a trival thing as realtime dodging.
About tactics overcoming 'Class' well that depends.
Let's visit a common situation:
Mage sees Warrior Mage roots Warrior Mage burns Warrior down
There is not very much tactics you can do in this scenario besides die in most common MMO. This is why in Guild Wars many Warrior builds integrated long range capabilities (like Gust).
Now, let's see how this scenario would work with realtime dodging:
Mage sees Warrior Mage fires a 'root' spell Warrior dodges the root spell manually Warrior closes range on Mage and hits him with Hamstring Mage gets owned
This is a situation pretty much non-existent in traditional MMO where the Developer has bound our behavior by rigid Warrior Class types (melee, non-long range). I expect to see MMOs like Chronicles of Spellborn, Huxley, and/or Darkfall to resolve this issue.
I believe Oblivion, Rakion, Mount & Blade, D&DO, and RYL 2 have proven that it is possible, but why wont ppl do it? Is it because all the people out there who dont have enough hand-eye coordination or have slow enough reflexes that these games wont work? If thats the case, then I am glad I was blessed enough to be able to move my mouse around and click instead of accidentaly punching my monitor off my desk. So, for the last time I ask, IF ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT A GAME LIKE THIS, PLEASE, PLEASE TELL ME!!!!!!
I dont think anyone else mentioned this but in Guild Wars players can dodge arrow projectiles. Rangers get a bonus for taking 'higher ground'. Also, there is no hidden dice rolls to dodge attacks. It's still RPG combat but more emphasis is placed on player skill.
Players can cast 'Dodge' type abilities however those can be stripped off (at least pre-Factions I dont know about now). The only hidden rolls that take place is as a direct result of a player ability.
List of current MMOs:
Starport, Asheron's Call 1 (realtime dodging, focus on player skill), D&DO, planetside, vendetta online, Jumpgate, Guild Wars
Upcoming MMOs:
Chronicles of Spellborn, darkfall, huxley, Fallen earth, jumpgate evolution
You can expect to see innovation most likely for MMOs targetting Console audiences. Sony will aim to integrate more player skill into their upcoming titles for PC/PS3 (The Agency, DC Online)
For the record, the Monster Hunter games here in Japan are great. Having played Frontier and MH2 myself, the battle systems in the games are top notch. However, they can't really be considered to be MMO's, more like co-op MP. But an MMO using the same system as MH would be awesome. The games rely on a mix of skill and twitch. Yes, you need to have quick reactions, but you also need to know the right moves to use. For me this is an ideal mix. Twitch games like GW are annoying, because PvP in that game is mostly won and lost depending on how good your Monks reactions are. But purely skill based games can be pretty boring as well. A game where you need to think and act fast, but also make correct decisions, like MH, now that's a game.
I don't believe that player controlled dodging is really going to have much effect on a zerg rush. As a matter of fact, if you are being overwhelmed by a large group it might be better to let the computer control the dodging (you could be using a different definition of zerging than I am). However, if you were smart enough and had enough foresight not to let yourself get in that situation in the first place....
Realtime dodging has, for many years, helped alleviate 'zerging'.
I am sorry, but I still do not agree with you. If manual dodging has any effect on "zerging" at all, it will only delay your death by a couple of seconds. The only real way to survive a zerg (or turn it to your advantage) is to use tactics.
Realize in Guild Wars (pre-Factions) / CoX / WoW in PVP guilds I was apart of on ventrillo our leader calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, and spike them with our least resisted ability. Targets die pretty much instantly if caught off guard. The lack of being able to use Terrain for Cover is instant doom in PVP.
I believe Guild Wars has best counter though amongst current MMO due to anti-spike buffs, etc.
The ability to use Terrain for cover and dodge enemy fire will help players avoid instant death.
Absolutely, using the terrain to your advantage is a large part of tactics.
Also, due to friendly fire a force of newbies will be more likely to kill themselves rather then their enemies. This is why in many FPS games Friendly Fire (FFA) is on. A zerg trying to breach a tight corridor lobbing grenades will be really self destructive.
There are tactics for zerging just like there are tactics to use against zerging. As Larry the Cable Guy (I think) is so fond of saying, "You can't fix stupid." If a horde of opposing players are dumb enough to kill themselves off, then the only thing you can do is count your lucky stars. However, the player was smart enough to use the terrain and put the horde in that position.
Using tactical skills could trump class imbalance just as easy as twitch skills could. Plus, there as the added benefit of making hardware issues (i.e. internet connection, server load, lag, etc.) less important.
I am not a proponent of the elimination of all "twitch" or arcade action in MMORPGs. This would create incredibly bland games. However, I do believe that they should be tertiary to "tactics" and the skill of the avatar.
About Server Load there are games old as Asheron's Call 1 that has had realtime dodging and more emphasis on player skill
Actually, I was thinking more about existing lag complicating dodging as opposed to the dodging causing lag. However, if the only twitch components you have in a game is manual dodging and a few special abilties, I doubt the MMORPG will have much of a problem.
I really don't like to see hardware issues give players an unfair advantage. While you can't eliminate this complete, you can minimize it by keeping the twitch components to manageable levels.
There are next gen titles that will feature full blown Havok integration on Server side in any case. Full blown Havok integration (realtime physics) is way more complicated then such a trival thing as realtime dodging.
Advances are coming to computers so fast now that I can hardly keep up. I am sure that it is only a matter of time before MMORPGs can easily handle anything we could imagine to throw at them.
About tactics overcoming 'Class' well that depends.
Let's visit a common situation:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage roots Warrior
Mage burns Warrior down
There is not very much tactics you can do in this scenario besides die in most common MMO. This is why in Guild Wars many Warrior builds integrated long range capabilities (like Gust).
The warrior getting trounced is not a failure of the game, but a failure of the warriors tactics. Maybe he could have gotten his buddy (a class that matches up better against the mage) to go after the mage, while he takes care of something else. Or perhaps he could have used the terrain as cover to sneak up behind the mage. Any melee class that runs across an open field (in plain site) towards a ranged class is asking for trouble.
Now, let's see how this scenario would work with realtime dodging:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage fires a 'root' spell
Warrior dodges the root spell manually
Warrior closes range on Mage and hits him with Hamstring
Mage gets owned
That could work. It could also work just as well if the computer controlled dodge. Or, like I said before, perhaps the warrior could sneak up behind the mage.
This is a situation pretty much non-existent in traditional MMO where the Developer has bound our behavior by rigid Warrior Class types (melee, non-long range). I expect to see MMOs like Chronicles of Spellborn, Huxley, and/or Darkfall to resolve this issue.
I would rather not turn this into a class versus sandbox discussion. I figure I have hijacked the thread enough as it is. For what it is worth, I am anxious to see how CotS, Huxley, and Darkfall play as well. Hopefully, they will encourage tactics over "arcade" action.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
lol, why not just make a side-scrolling beat em up game online? y`know, like double dragon, but then online.
I mean, that would be fun. and we all know beat em ups need skillfull buttonmashing to do some good special moves.
I guess that only leaves the lag issues, which can be partially fixed by limiting amount of players in certain fields. something that always proved to work on online shooters.
it`s been ages since I`ve seen a good beat em up game for the PC. heck, since everything`s going online anyway, why not just copy the idea of "Kwon Ho" and bring some fighting games online or something?
Comments
according to this logic Magic: The Gathering would not work because surely everyone would use the same deck? Surely in Guild Wars everyone uses the same deck according to this logic.
There is a thing called 'balance' that developers must do to make difficult builds viable.
First of all, I would like to clarify that I never mentioned anything about dodging. Jumping up to avoid a strike is one thing. However, jumping because there is bug in programming that let's you avoid damage that you should have taken is something completely different. Of course not all FPS games are like this, but a lot of them do seem to reward "learning the quirks of the game" over employing tactics.
I did not mean to imply that tactics are meaningless in FPS and if I did, I am sorry. However, I do believe that the RPG is a better platform for making tactics important. Putting your avatar in a favorable position in a RPG is more important, because you do not have the twitch skills to bail your avatar out of the situation if you don't.
I don't believe that player controlled dodging is really going to have much effect on a zerg rush. As a matter of fact, if you are being overwhelmed by a large group it might be better to let the computer control the dodging (you could be using a different definition of zerging than I am). However, if you were smart enough and had enough foresight not to let yourself get in that situation in the first place....
Using tactical skills could trump class imbalance just as easy as twitch skills could. Plus, there as the added benefit of making hardware issues (i.e. internet connection, server load, lag, etc.) less important.
I am not a proponent of the elimination of all "twitch" or arcade action in MMORPGs. This would create incredibly bland games. However, I do believe that they should be tertiary to "tactics" and the skill of the avatar.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Guild Wars is the closest to skill based pvp that I have come across. For the most part no developers are even bothering to make skill based games. Sometimes they might pay some fast talking PR slave to try and pitch the game as requiring skill, but the games I have in mind that have done that sure as hell don't remotely compare to Guild Wars.
P.S. The first time I PvPd in WoW I was using a max level and very well equippped shadowpriest on a friend's account. On about half of the 2v2 matchups I could activate my DoTs and go AFK to win. Half of the other 50% of the time I actually had to stay at the keyboard and reapply the DoTs or silence or mana burn (shucks I am so awesome at hammering those buttons at the right target).
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
While I agree that the MMO market could use some diversity, the OP's style of posting makes me glad I'm not playing the same game he is. I think my head would implode.
Realtime dodging has, for many years, helped alleviate 'zerging'.
Realize in Guild Wars (pre-Factions) / CoX / WoW in PVP guilds I was apart of on ventrillo our leader calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, and spike them with our least resisted ability. Targets die pretty much instantly if caught off guard. The lack of being able to use Terrain for Cover is instant doom in PVP.
I believe Guild Wars has best counter though amongst current MMO due to anti-spike buffs, etc.
The ability to use Terrain for cover and dodge enemy fire will help players avoid instant death.
Also, due to friendly fire a force of newbies will be more likely to kill themselves rather then their enemies. This is why in many FPS games Friendly Fire (FFA) is on. A zerg trying to breach a tight corridor lobbing grenades will be really self destructive.
About Server Load there are games old as Asheron's Call 1 that has had realtime dodging and more emphasis on player skill
There are next gen titles that will feature full blown Havok integration on Server side in any case. Full blown Havok integration (realtime physics) is way more complicated then such a trival thing as realtime dodging.
Havok Physics running in MMOs
About tactics overcoming 'Class' well that depends.
Let's visit a common situation:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage roots Warrior
Mage burns Warrior down
There is not very much tactics you can do in this scenario besides die in most common MMO. This is why in Guild Wars many Warrior builds integrated long range capabilities (like Gust).
Now, let's see how this scenario would work with realtime dodging:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage fires a 'root' spell
Warrior dodges the root spell manually
Warrior closes range on Mage and hits him with Hamstring
Mage gets owned
This is a situation pretty much non-existent in traditional MMO where the Developer has bound our behavior by rigid Warrior Class types (melee, non-long range). I expect to see MMOs like Chronicles of Spellborn, Huxley, and/or Darkfall to resolve this issue.
I dont think anyone else mentioned this but in Guild Wars players can dodge arrow projectiles. Rangers get a bonus for taking 'higher ground'. Also, there is no hidden dice rolls to dodge attacks. It's still RPG combat but more emphasis is placed on player skill.
Players can cast 'Dodge' type abilities however those can be stripped off (at least pre-Factions I dont know about now). The only hidden rolls that take place is as a direct result of a player ability.
List of current MMOs:
Starport, Asheron's Call 1 (realtime dodging, focus on player skill), D&DO, planetside, vendetta online, Jumpgate, Guild Wars
Upcoming MMOs:
Chronicles of Spellborn, darkfall, huxley, Fallen earth, jumpgate evolution
You can expect to see innovation most likely for MMOs targetting Console audiences. Sony will aim to integrate more player skill into their upcoming titles for PC/PS3 (The Agency, DC Online)
For the record, the Monster Hunter games here in Japan are great. Having played Frontier and MH2 myself, the battle systems in the games are top notch. However, they can't really be considered to be MMO's, more like co-op MP. But an MMO using the same system as MH would be awesome. The games rely on a mix of skill and twitch. Yes, you need to have quick reactions, but you also need to know the right moves to use. For me this is an ideal mix. Twitch games like GW are annoying, because PvP in that game is mostly won and lost depending on how good your Monks reactions are. But purely skill based games can be pretty boring as well. A game where you need to think and act fast, but also make correct decisions, like MH, now that's a game.
I'll just state it.
Elderscrolls 4 (Oblivion) would make the mmo you guys are talking about if it had just some few tweeks.
http://quizilla.com/users/RevolteYourWorld/quizzes/Posessed. By what and the efects,(cool%20pics%20and%20detailed%20results)/
Realtime dodging has, for many years, helped alleviate 'zerging'.
I am sorry, but I still do not agree with you. If manual dodging has any effect on "zerging" at all, it will only delay your death by a couple of seconds. The only real way to survive a zerg (or turn it to your advantage) is to use tactics.
Realize in Guild Wars (pre-Factions) / CoX / WoW in PVP guilds I was apart of on ventrillo our leader calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, and spike them with our least resisted ability. Targets die pretty much instantly if caught off guard. The lack of being able to use Terrain for Cover is instant doom in PVP.
I believe Guild Wars has best counter though amongst current MMO due to anti-spike buffs, etc.
The ability to use Terrain for cover and dodge enemy fire will help players avoid instant death.
Absolutely, using the terrain to your advantage is a large part of tactics.
Also, due to friendly fire a force of newbies will be more likely to kill themselves rather then their enemies. This is why in many FPS games Friendly Fire (FFA) is on. A zerg trying to breach a tight corridor lobbing grenades will be really self destructive.
There are tactics for zerging just like there are tactics to use against zerging. As Larry the Cable Guy (I think) is so fond of saying, "You can't fix stupid." If a horde of opposing players are dumb enough to kill themselves off, then the only thing you can do is count your lucky stars. However, the player was smart enough to use the terrain and put the horde in that position.
About Server Load there are games old as Asheron's Call 1 that has had realtime dodging and more emphasis on player skill
Actually, I was thinking more about existing lag complicating dodging as opposed to the dodging causing lag. However, if the only twitch components you have in a game is manual dodging and a few special abilties, I doubt the MMORPG will have much of a problem.
I really don't like to see hardware issues give players an unfair advantage. While you can't eliminate this complete, you can minimize it by keeping the twitch components to manageable levels.
There are next gen titles that will feature full blown Havok integration on Server side in any case. Full blown Havok integration (realtime physics) is way more complicated then such a trival thing as realtime dodging.
Havok Physics running in MMOs
Advances are coming to computers so fast now that I can hardly keep up. I am sure that it is only a matter of time before MMORPGs can easily handle anything we could imagine to throw at them.
About tactics overcoming 'Class' well that depends.
Let's visit a common situation:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage roots Warrior
Mage burns Warrior down
There is not very much tactics you can do in this scenario besides die in most common MMO. This is why in Guild Wars many Warrior builds integrated long range capabilities (like Gust).
The warrior getting trounced is not a failure of the game, but a failure of the warriors tactics. Maybe he could have gotten his buddy (a class that matches up better against the mage) to go after the mage, while he takes care of something else. Or perhaps he could have used the terrain as cover to sneak up behind the mage. Any melee class that runs across an open field (in plain site) towards a ranged class is asking for trouble.
Now, let's see how this scenario would work with realtime dodging:
Mage sees Warrior
Mage fires a 'root' spell
Warrior dodges the root spell manually
Warrior closes range on Mage and hits him with Hamstring
Mage gets owned
That could work. It could also work just as well if the computer controlled dodge. Or, like I said before, perhaps the warrior could sneak up behind the mage.
This is a situation pretty much non-existent in traditional MMO where the Developer has bound our behavior by rigid Warrior Class types (melee, non-long range). I expect to see MMOs like Chronicles of Spellborn, Huxley, and/or Darkfall to resolve this issue.
I would rather not turn this into a class versus sandbox discussion. I figure I have hijacked the thread enough as it is. For what it is worth, I am anxious to see how CotS, Huxley, and Darkfall play as well. Hopefully, they will encourage tactics over "arcade" action.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
lol, why not just make a side-scrolling beat em up game online? y`know, like double dragon, but then online.
I mean, that would be fun. and we all know beat em ups need skillfull buttonmashing to do some good special moves.
I guess that only leaves the lag issues, which can be partially fixed by limiting amount of players in certain fields. something that always proved to work on online shooters.
it`s been ages since I`ve seen a good beat em up game for the PC. heck, since everything`s going online anyway, why not just copy the idea of "Kwon Ho" and bring some fighting games online or something?