MMORPG with least rigid Healer/tank/DPS Model

Fateus

Hello Everyone!

Yet another looknig for a new MMORPG thread.

Im wondering which main stream mmorpg has a different game model that doesn't rigidly require a tank and healer. For example not World of Warcraft.

A better example would be COH.  I loved City of heroes. Even though it had clear cut tank and healer classes, none are required for most mission to succeed or any of the major big instances. Any combination of classes works very well. If you have no tank, its made up with having a debuffing or buffing class, or extra DPS or extra healing. 

Im having a hard time thinkign of any other game like that besides older ones such as Ultima or non traditional non fantasy games such as EVE. Is EQ2 or Vanguard any diffrent?

Thanks

 

Czzarre

Heh, I was going to say Eve, btu you already mentioned it. Im having a hard time comping up with any fantasy based mmorpg that doesnt use that formula.

Perhaps one of the F2P games. Perhaps Guild Wars

Torrential

Fateus

I always forget about Guild wars >.<

I dont expect the game to not have tanks or healers. Im just wodnering if there any game otu there that is not so rigid as to need any of those classes.

Czzarre

I understand your question. Unfortunatly in these games there will always be someone taking damage (and thus tanking) and someone always will have the ability to provide heals (and thus a healer). I dont know of any game that allows the flexibility that any class can become one and then the other. I recall someone telling me there were some MMORPGs that did not use a "class" system and instead used a "skill' system. Unfortunatly, I forget what the game was, and I also wonder if the "skill' system is just another name of a classes

Ill keep my eyes out for one

Torrential 

Brenelael

Originally posted by Czzarre


 I also wonder if the "skill' system is just another name of a classes
Torrential 

No a true skill system does not have any defined classes. In a skill based system your skill use defines your class instead of your class defining your skills. You have access to all the skills in the game and whichever ones you find useful and use level up and those define what type or "class" your character will be. Needless to say there are a lot of hybrids in skill based systems as people want a wide variety of skills.

 

To answer the OP what you want is a Skill based game and the only 2 I know of are Eve and Ultima Online. Eve you mentioned and UO while very dated is still fun. The only other game of this type that comes to mind is Runescape.

 

Bren

METALDRAG0N

WoW a very hard qestion as 99% of MMO's Are basically WoW clones.

 

Well....

Anarchy Online-i hear that this one has a good skill system tho it does have a class system too tho i dont know how this works exactly as i could never get it to install on my comp.

 

And errrr.  Thats it i guess like i say not much on market exept WoW clones.

legok

i    would strongly recommend Tabula Rasa, it has 2 basic paths, wich are soldier and specialist, the first is the heavy damage roles wheras the specialist is the support and trick class where the repair/heals comes as well.

 

That said,  each of those 2 paths has alot of sub-tiers that differ em futher but keeping the previus skills, alos there are no "tank" class ust different approaches to deal direct dmg fir soldiers and different and fun ways to do it for specialist but they have support oriented skills.

 

Well since Im a really bad writter and u can check the game via the trial provided on this site, u can check it out.

jsw40

I know this sounds strange, but EverQuest 2 kinda-sorta.

From my experience, a few other classes did good jobs at tanking other than Guardians, such as Monks and Paladins, and from what I hear all of them are equally good and have different things to bring to a group.

The same goes for healing and DPS. Although EQ2 is not by any means a free-form party game like City of Heroes, you tend to have more leniency in group composition as opposed to games like WoW.

Ginaz

Pre-cu and even CU swg used to be the one with the least restrictive class system.  You could customize your character to be a tank, healer AND dps all in one.  Today, not so much.

hubertgrove

One game with extraordinary strengths and weaknesses which has triumphantly reinvented the Tank/DPS/Healer model is City of Heroes and its sister versio, City of Villains. This is a small but wonderfully realised game - with the most exceptionally advanced character creation and customisation in the entire business; however, its repetitive nature does mean that it is not for everyone.

OOOPS! I WOULD LIKE TO CITE THIS POST AS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T READ BEYOND THE SECOND LINE OF A THREAD STARTER.

daylight01

You may want to look at TCOS they dont have an out and out healer or tank all classes have a heal spell some classes do have a few more but they are making it so basically any 4 classes can make a group,It is maybe something for you and due for release q1 2008.

Vegetta

Ultima Online

bverji

matrix online

jimmyman99

Originally posted by Fateus


Hello Everyone!
Yet another looknig for a new MMORPG thread.
Im wondering which main stream mmorpg has a different game model that doesn't rigidly require a tank and healer. For example not World of Warcraft.
A better example would be COH.  I loved City of heroes. Even though it had clear cut tank and healer classes, none are required for most mission to succeed or any of the major big instances. Any combination of classes works very well. If you have no tank, its made up with having a debuffing or buffing class, or extra DPS or extra healing. 
Im having a hard time thinkign of any other game like that besides older ones such as Ultima or non traditional non fantasy games such as EVE. Is EQ2 or Vanguard any diffrent?
Thanks
 

This is hard...Prety much all MMOs will require some sort of healer on high end level raiding. Even Eve. GW is a bit more flexible (you can pick your skills for your monk so you become less of a healer, but still a healer), but, from my experience, pretty much every single MMO with PvE qill require some kind of healer at high end.

maskedweasel

As far as skill based, SWG pre NGE definitely had it, but it isn't around anymore. I don't know if they changed MxO but it used to be skill based somewhat, where you can build up and tear down skill trees to an extent, although the combat was clunky. I hear they've changed a few things, but I don't think they have a free trial so I wouldn't buy it before it's trial worthy.

Vanguard has classes that work as healer/damage dealers, and healer tanks. (disciples and paladins) In fact, almost every tier of class has someone that has the ability to heal. Whether you're a damage dealer, a healer a tank or a mage, each one has a class with the ability to heal to an extent.

You won't find many skill based games that are worthy of your time at this moment. TCOS is a mixture of 2 playstyles molded together, some will like it, some won't. I'd say try that before they hype makes you buy something you won't play for more then a few weeks.

The most notable skill based game coming up is Darkfall, but there is no release date, and everythings been pending ridiculously long, so I wouldn't hold your breath, at least in Q1 or 2 of 08 for this one to come out.

Good luck!

Unknown

CoX has the most flexible system.  Its tempting to say Guild Wars, but they still have a dedicated healer class or two and it is necessary to specialize for the harder content.

It may be the case that youcan have a monk with no heals in GW but generally a group needs some kind of healer.

CoX you can have a group of 8 defenders and not one of them with a heal or you can have a group of 8 scrappers.  And none of them will have any taunts.

 

Even the big ball breaker content like Lord Recluses strike force does not require Tank and Spank even though many will tell you it does.  It can be done with a very good Mind Dominator and an arbitrary mix of other ATs.

 

Also healing in CoX is not really as important as buffing other defenses so that diversifies things as well.

 

Edit: If you want proof of this, goto the defender boards on the CoX board and call them "Healers" usually those threads go into 30 pages of 80% of the people telling you that you don't know jack about how CoX works.   

Sadly there are a lot of people who think defenders are healers and won't start an instance without one.  I had a number of people say things like "Wanna join a group we could use your heals" to my storm defender who had no heals and even if he picked the only heal available to that power set anyone thinking it will keep them alive is a moron.  That isn't to say he can't keep people alive but it involves a lot of blowing thing into corner and stunning the crap out of them.

Ozmodan

Only one game that does not have a rigid healer when it comes to fantasy, that is Asheron's Call, the original one.  Mainly because it is skill based.  Any character can train the healing skill.   Also UO is a skill based and anyone can learn healing too.   Since pre NGE no longer exists, I cannot include it.

Without a skill based system, rigid class based skills are your norm.  Developers don't want to do a skill based system because it is hard to balance.   So everything is a Wow clone.

Too bad Turbine won't ever make a Asheron's call 3 based on the original game with a skill based system, it just might give Blizzard a run for the money.

daylight01

Originally posted by Ozmodan


Only one game that does not have a rigid healer when it comes to fantasy, that is Asheron's Call, the original one.  Mainly because it is skill based.  Any character can train the healing skill.   Also UO is a skill based and anyone can learn healing too.   Since pre NGE no longer exists, I cannot include it.
Without a skill based system, rigid class based skills are your norm.  Developers don't want to do a skill based system because it is hard to balance.   So everything is a Wow clone.

---> my 1st post in this thread

Munki

healer -> tank ->dps is pretty much the whole idea of fantasy

Healer keeps tank alive, who keeps the mobs off the dps, who kills the mob before the healers mana runs out.

Its the circle of life... its hard to mess with it.

Especially if you exclude Tabula Rasa.

Unknown

Originally posted by Munki


healer -> tank ->dps is pretty much the whole idea of fantasy
Healer keeps tank alive, who keeps the mobs off the dps, who kills the mob before the healers mana runs out.
Its the circle of life... its hard to mess with it.
Especially if you exclude Tabula Rasa.

It may be the cornerstone of D&D based fantasy, but certainly not fantasy.  There were no real healers in LOTR and Turbine had to turn health into morale to even shoehorn D&D play mechanics into the lore.

If we go back to the way back of the First generation of CRPG (Wizardry, Ultima I, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic 1 et al.) Bard's Tale specifically had no "Cleric" class, granted the various mage type had some healing but there was no dedicated healer by any means.

 

Also for those who say the skill based games do not have a rigid tank and heal paradigm.  That is not based on skills it is based on the game mechanics.  A game with skills and no hard coded classes can skill evolve into a fairly rigid and tank/heal/spank game because of the way a game's powers are designed.

Again look at CoX absolutely ANY build which focuses on pure healing is weaker than it could be.  This is not necessarily true in a skill based game.  Some skill based games a pure healer build can be one of the most effective builds (it may not be, but it certainly has happened).  In CoX eveb a pure healer Empathy (the most heal orinted0 defender is still weaksauce, if you do not get the buffs which add defense then you are a crappy empathy defender or controller.  The game mechanics are what determine the tank/heal/spank (or CC which was actually the third leg of the EQ holy triniity) paradigm not the character progression model.

People think skills versus class has a greater effect than it really does.  I prefer skill based system for the freedom it gives.  But believing that a skill based system cannot evolve into a rather rigid system via social contract is just plain wrong.  In the end power choice and how it interacts with content determine that, not classes or skills.

Mylon

---

Originally posted by Munki
healer -> tank ->dps is pretty much the whole idea of fantasy
Healer keeps tank alive, who keeps the mobs off the dps, who kills the mob before the healers mana runs out.
Its the circle of life... its hard to mess with it.
Especially if you exclude Tabula Rasa.

---

But Dungeons and Dragons, the game most RPGs and MMORPGs are based off of, does not work this way. There are no taunts, so if the mobs can get to the mage they can. Healers provide buffs and/or support fighting. Their heals are risky to perform in combat and fairly lackluster compared to the damages flying around, but the important part is that they can buy someone time to retreat from the battle or prevent someone from dying (death means a lot). Most of the healing occurs after combat.

That is, in an MMO a typical healer during a difficult fight might restore 400% of someone's HP or more. A cleric in D&D might restore 20-40% of someone's HP, if any.

iceboxqs

 

a different game model that doesn't rigidly require a tank and healer.

 

I will second Tabula Rasa.

It may not have all the extra little bells and whistles of other mmorpgs have but it does take a step away from the "two classes required" system. It has a very fun combat system, kinda a mix of Planetside like fps and rpg elements.

I didn't play online games until Everquest 1 and for the most part none of the big titles have stepped away from that model ( or whatever model EQ1 was based on )....it is getting pretty old, ten years of the same #*%@.

Daffid011

WW2Online!

Second life

Planetside

=P

Chieftan

Out of the traditional MMOs I've played I would say WoW--as long as you stay out of the raiding game. 

In all the 5 man instances I've played in I've never seen a real need for a plate tank.  A beast-specced hunter pet can tank and hold aggro just fine.  The real problem is the perception among players that you need a plate tank and a dedicated healing class specced for healing.  I haven't seen that to be true.

And of course all of the classes can solo no matter what group role they normally fill.

Hvymetal

DDO has one of the most flexible character creation systems out right now. You want to play a Battlcleric? A Armor wering Wizard? Almost anything is possible prividing you wish to put the planning into it.

Often times this is what turns MMO players from other games off to this game. Don't expect your cleric to stand back and heal (Cleric is a perfectly viable combat class in the D&D system, having several buffs that are self only for boosting combat capability). Hell I just got done running an upper level quest with my Rogue playing main healer. Everyone has some capability to heal themselves, either via spell, wand, or potion.

They do have a form of taunt thrown in, intimidate (but honestly it's rare to see many melee classes actually using it). You will run into more traditional types that expect Arcanes to Nuke, Melees to tank & Clerics and Bards to heal but that is a limitation imposed by the players view not the system.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Munki


healer -> tank ->dps is pretty much the whole idea of fantasy
Healer keeps tank alive, who keeps the mobs off the dps, who kills the mob before the healers mana runs out.
Its the circle of life... its hard to mess with it.
Especially if you exclude Tabula Rasa.

While this has been the path taken by traditional MMORPG's to date (curse you EQ) it doesn't have to be this way.  One day someone will break the mold and try something more along the lines of the old UO or SWG pre CU again.