If it was based around group tactics than shouldn't all classes be gimp solo?

mutantmagnet

The title is something I came across while reading a blog about DAOC and this has been something that has come up too frequently in the wow forums. I think people who say this are a bit dense when thinking about group dynamics.

Why are you dense if you think like this? Look at chess. Look at starcraft. Games that are considered to be mostly balanced but the pieces used are wildly different from each other.

Now imagine a game comes out where you can play as one of those pieces and you are aware in most combat situations a unit cap exists.

People who don't understand group dynamics are like pawns who complain about the solobility of the queens. I'm sure a lot of people would like to be dragoons and choose them for stylistic reasons but don't whine about not being able to solo a carrier or have the soloing capabilities of a carrier. Lurkers are even cooler and have interesting dynamics in a group but don't complain about being forced to rely on queens or ling spam so you can properly dps. Oh and you people who play queens that can intimidate other pieces just by being in their vicinity, don't complain about how you have to rely on other classes just so you can kill the one class you normally can't kill, knights.

So if you get my drift you are being dense. That doesn't mean there isn't a reason to feel bitter about how the game is structured. I also agree it is possible to be able to have sololing capabilities while being indsipensible to a group.

After 20 years since online multiplayer started I've finally played one game that achieves that, Call of Duty of 4. But there are caveats to COD4s class design I'm betting that would make you complain about other things such as a feeling of homogeny.

So in the end you should accept the designers' choice in how they develop group dynamics and determine if in the right context (meaning anything beyond you wanting to become the top 50 in a game) it works as they state it should. If you can't accept that just play COD4 until someone comes along and makes an MMO with group design you think you prefer.

Zaxx99

I have played many hours of DAOC back in the day.

The reason classes aren't "gimp" solo is because nobody really wants to be forced into playing with a group of players just to be able to take down decent mobs and acquire decent gold and loot.

DAoC wasn't exactly the most balanced mmo I've ever played, but the assortment of classes and truly original classes such as the Animist made the game so much fun to play with other players and made it interesting to group up with different classes as well. A good group that worked together were certainly much more powerful then a bunch of individuals, even if the individuals level totals were considerably higher. Trust me, I saw this many times on the Mordred PvP server.

Every game is going to have its weaknesses and advantages. Even if a new mmo was to come out with absolute perfect balance, you'd still have tons of players crying and whining and fussing about balance issues, gimped classes, and so forth.

Call of Duty 4 is a great game by the way. Totally agree w you here.

- Zaxx

Omega3

If you enforce group dynamics and gimp everyone solo, you are facing 2 problems:

- if there is not enough population, people can't group, your game dies. same apply fi you make a holy trinity healer/tank/dps and one of those is missing for a group (see EQ for example)

- there is a large part of players who simply dont want to group most of the time and will only do it when they are forced to to get an item or whatever.

Basically, even if enforcing group mechanics seems ideal on paper, it doesn't survive the test of reality.

Anti-Fanboi

Forced grouping outside of large PvP battles is a game killer in the Western market. No one wants to LFG for 1-3 hours just to level up and then finally after 1-2 years get into the core area of game play that has nothing to do with the traditional level grind PVE mechanics of your EQ like MMO's. Mythic has a strong view that PVE should not be a impassable brick wall to their core PVP gameplay mechanics in their titles.

mutantmagnet

The last two of you need to reread what I said. This isn't about whether or not forced grouping is good or bad.

This is about debunking the specific arguement "why should one specific unit from the group be more successful at killing everyone else in 1v1 scenario, that doesn't make sense."

It does make sense and I debunked it by showing games where noone has problems with individual pieces being overpowered because they happen to controll all the pieces.

Don't complain about poor game design because you can't look beyond the single zergling/bishop you decided to play.

hubertgrove

Originally posted by Omega3


If you enforce group dynamics and gimp everyone solo, you are facing 2 problems:
- if there is not enough population, people can't group, your game dies. same apply fi you make a holy trinity healer/tank/dps and one of those is missing for a group (see EQ for example)
- there is a large part of players who simply dont want to group most of the time and will only do it when they are forced to to get an item or whatever.
Basically, even if enforcing group mechanics seems ideal on paper, it doesn't survive the test of reality.

This is absolutely right. Most people would like to group but it is a 'distress transaction' - ie. it is a hard to get in a group and then sustain it.

And yet, until very recently, many developers would actually skew their games so you had to group - one of the biggest early failings of EQ2, for example, was that if you even wanted to travel through particualr zones let alone do missions in those areas, you had to group. WoW's designers, on the other hand, were more relaxed and did provide 'solo-friendly' pathways through the game; I think, amongst many other reasons, that is why the game rocketed to market dominance right from the start.

It has taken quite a time and some unpleasant commercial experiences for game developers to realise that, like it or not, most players don't have the time or the inclination to group, and that those developers should stop forcing players to do so.