We need a world where you can go and do whatever you want, without being restricted by levels. You know where you pack up some gear and set out for adventure. A game where encounters aren't static. Where one day an area is controlled by one group and when they are killed another different group moves in. This way when you do go looking for adventure, even if you when this way before in the past, you don't know what the hell to expect.
No one is going to want to start a new character and have no choice but to run the same quests again. No choice but to progress through the same areas in the same order because of level restrictions. To fight the same mobs standing in the same location again... All because of perma death.
"Character progression" has destroyed roleplay and has held games back for long enough. Noone wants to enjoy the experiance anymore they just want to get through the crap to raise a number... You don't have time for stuff like ,roleplay or fun, when you only have 2 hours to play and cannot get into the parts of the game that truely intrest you untill you have hit lvl 50ish and have gained certain skill powers. Trying to get into large open PvP or RVRPVP is a waste of time until you have reached lvl 50ish, cause those that were able to quicky fly through the "content" and hit 60, will kill you with one hit. Why bother joining in, what should be one of the most compelling aspects of MMOS, when you know you stand ZERO chance of accomplishing anything? Not to mention it is taking away from the 2 hrs you have to play, when you know you need to spend that rushing through the "content" to reach a level that will allow you to compete somewhat in PvP. Then after all that time,you finally reach a high enough level, you can expect to spend about half that ammount of time again, just doing the same crap over and over in hopes of getting the elusive UBER GEAR, cause the players that have it are kicking your ass!!
So instead of having kick ass PVP battles all over the world(player towns competing) you have a handfull of PVP battles with a few handfulls of players..in the same places over and over. And what are they fighting for? Cause the devleoper said these guys are good and these guys are bad...When does it get personal?Personal enough that you are driven to fight!! Like those SOB'S burned down our town!! Or they are killing all our game animals we will have nothing to eat unless we stop them and take what is rightfully ours!!
I don't know about you, but for me, that sure as hell beats go and fetch me 15 eyeballs from frogman slaves, 10 eyeballs from frogman warriors and 5 eyeballs from frogman casters..... Maybe thats just me though...
Pretty much,a Perma Death game requires a Living World. A world where the players shape the story through their choices and actions, and players,as people(that live breathe and die), are equals.
Sadly I don't expect to see a game like this anytime soon.
I think a permadeath game would be fun for me to watch, but I would never set virtual foot in it.
First off, I think if you have a game like this, when you die (and you will, guaranteed), you should lose everything. Everything on your person just becomes loot for your killer. So, all progress you have accomplished up to this point is utterly wiped out. A vicious, brutal world. It would certainly take people with a lot of patience to play a game like that. If I did, my monitor would likely go thru a nearby window at some point.
Here's why I think such a game will never be popular. When you read a book or watch a movie, you follow the journey of a main character or three as they progress. They learn, grow, adapt, survive, overcome hardship, etc on the way. By your observation of these characters, you become invested in them. You want to see what happens to them. Sure, one (or more) of them may die along the way, but it's usually in a tragic or meaningful manner.
If every book or movie your wrote had the main characters being killed of semi-regularly, with new unknowns then becoming the main characters, your interest would wane as you don't know or care for these constant replacements. People need a sense of continuity, of growth, of seeing Frodo make it to Mordor, or seeing Laura Croft finally get to that all-important item. This gives a sense of completion. The constant "starting again" that would be in a permadeath game would eventually become annoying and tiresome.
Admittedly, there would be some excitement if you had a character who had survived for a while, maybe acquiring some decent gear or skills, but sooner or later that he/she would be defeated, perhaps by a gang, and then what? The player in front of the screen would have a few moments of frustration/anguish/anger and then.... start a new character. Or quit. How many times would most be willing to start a character (again!)?
Finally, think of the kind of world such a game would be like. I'm not talking about towns or quests or politics per se, but rather the total anarachy that would thrive. Gangs of thugs would rule outside of protected zones (if they existed). You would be forced to join such a gang or be overwhelmed by numbers. Even if you were the leader of one of these gangs, eventually you would be deposed by some upstart and sent back to the starting gate.
Imagine in RL, if you were to set foot outside of your door, at any time anyone could come up and rob and kill you with no repercussions. How would you feel about going out?
I've no doubt a game like this would attract some people, but I think a lot of people would choose never to set foot in it. Some proof of this can be seen in the popularity of non pvp servers.
Biggest problem: Over-analytical nerds hemming and hawing over a simple issue
Easiest solution: JUST PUT IT IN
D2 did it. The only distinction you had was your character was "Hard Core". That's it.
Some people want permadeath for whatever reason. No problem. Just give it to them and stop there. You don't have to rework the entire game to accommodate them.
I think a permadeath game would be fun for me to watch, but I would never set virtual foot in it. Indeed it would not be for everyone. First off, I think if you have a game like this, when you die (and you will, guaranteed), you should lose everything. Everything on your person just becomes loot for your killer. So, all progress you have accomplished up to this point is utterly wiped out. A vicious, brutal world. It would certainly take people with a lot of patience to play a game like that. If I did, my monitor would likely go thru a nearby window at some point. Thing is the items you drop would/should be just regular items. No uber gear. They would be able to take what money you had on your person, as well as sell off your gear for a bit of extra cash or melt it down to make things you or your guild need. Here's why I think such a game will never be popular. When you read a book or watch a movie, you follow the journey of a main character or three as they progress. They learn, grow, adapt, survive, overcome hardship, etc on the way. By your observation of these characters, you become invested in them. You want to see what happens to them. Sure, one (or more) of them may die along the way, but it's usually in a tragic or meaningful manner. If every book or movie your wrote had the main characters being killed of semi-regularly, with new unknowns then becoming the main characters, your interest would wane as you don't know or care for these constant replacements. People need a sense of continuity, of growth, of seeing Frodo make it to Mordor, or seeing Laura Croft finally get to that all-important item. This gives a sense of completion. The constant "starting again" that would be in a permadeath game would eventually become annoying and tiresome. I understand that what you are saying. But in a game like this should be, you are making the story as you play. You die that particulat story is over... But a new one will begin when you create your next character. And that experiance would/could be completely different. Admittedly, there would be some excitement if you had a character who had survived for a while, maybe acquiring some decent gear or skills, but sooner or later that he/she would be defeated, perhaps by a gang, and then what? The player in front of the screen would have a few moments of frustration/anguish/anger and then.... start a new character. Or quit. How many times would most be willing to start a character (again!)? If their was no level grind to get back to where you were at? Don't think I would tire of it. Would obviously have to get your basic gear back and all that but that is a small price for a good,meaningfull, experiance IMO. Finally, think of the kind of world such a game would be like. I'm not talking about towns or quests or politics per se, but rather the total anarachy that would thrive. Gangs of thugs would rule outside of protected zones (if they existed). You would be forced to join such a gang or be overwhelmed by numbers. Even if you were the leader of one of these gangs, eventually you would be deposed by some upstart and sent back to the starting gate. That sounds like exciting gameplay to me. Player/community driven content at it's best.Wouldn't you be out for revenge after that? Would you slink off to some corner in the world to quietly build a army of like minded players to take them down and claim their town for your own? Cause and effect, I kill you you want revenge. Your army comes and kills me and my men, now me and my men want revenge on you and your army. Maybe each time a few players fracture off to create their own communities else where. That have a inborn natural hatred for you or me. It just keeps branching. You can't write content that good or personal. Imagine in RL, if you were to set foot outside of your door, at any time anyone could come up and rob and kill you with no repercussions. How would you feel about going out? It use to be that way, obviously. But people started banning together and eventually created towns and laws to prevent just such things from happening. You will always have a few that step outside the boundarys, like still today IRL, but that is where the community has to draw lines and enforce their laws. Which will create some awsome gameplay and replayability IMO. I've no doubt a game like this would attract some people, but I think a lot of people would choose never to set foot in it. Some proof of this can be seen in the popularity of non pvp servers. I think, and this is just my opinion, that that has more to do with the fact that those game have levels that give those that have enormous ammounts of free time a huge advantage over new players. And allows them to kill at will with new players able to do nothing about it. Again the big thing is they have to make it a living world(not linear), where all players are equal as people(no levels).
Another solution would be to make survival the ultimate objective.
Say... zombie apocalypse. A large, open ended cityscape that has been ravaged by a zombie infection. Situated on a large island (such as manhattan...), the player must contend every day with zombies, other players, and frequent military extermination patrols. The player may only log off inside a building and only when no zombies or patrols are nearby. Permadeath and full loot!
Zombies: Attracted to players whenever they are logged on (time survived is only accumulated when logged on). May carry some phat lewt, range from slow to fast and weak to tough. Loud noises (gunshots, vehicles, etc.) will attract them in greater numbers. Staying in one spot for an extended period of time will begin to attract stronger/faster zombies. Stay on the move!
Players: PvP is open with full looting, but it is to the players advantage to team up (too large a group will attract too many zombies though). Extended battles between players will attract zombies vvveeerrryyy quickly...
Military patrols: Helicopters and grunts with big guns and nbc suits. Shoot on site and are tough. May occasionally be overrun by zombies. Excellent loot! If you have the numbers/firepower to take down one of these patrols you should at any oppurtunity. Be warned... zombies will come out of the woodwork when they are around...
City: buildings, wrecked cars, general mayhem. Randomly spawning loot.
Loot: things to help you survive. Guns, body armor, health kits, gasoline, vehicles, perfume, LOTS of items able to be combined (bottle + gasoline = cocktail anyone?). Some items are aggresive (guns) defensive (body armor) and some may attract zombies or patrols (flares, perfume, lights, etc.)
Just an example of permadeath that would work AND be fun...
Another solution would be to make survival the ultimate objective. Say... zombie apocalypse. A large, open ended cityscape that has been ravaged by a zombie infection. Situated on a large island (such as manhattan...), the player must contend every day with zombies, other players, and frequent military extermination patrols. The player may only log off inside a building and only when no zombies or patrols are nearby. Permadeath and full loot! Zombies: Attracted to players whenever they are logged on (time survived is only accumulated when logged on). May carry some phat lewt, range from slow to fast and weak to tough. Loud noises (gunshots, vehicles, etc.) will attract them in greater numbers. Staying in one spot for an extended period of time will begin to attract stronger/faster zombies. Stay on the move! Players: PvP is open with full looting, but it is to the players advantage to team up (too large a group will attract too many zombies though). Extended battles between players will attract zombies vvveeerrryyy quickly... Military patrols: Helicopters and grunts with big guns and nbc suits. Shoot on site and are tough. May occasionally be overrun by zombies. Excellent loot! If you have the numbers/firepower to take down one of these patrols you should at any oppurtunity. Be warned... zombies will come out of the woodwork when they are around... City: buildings, wrecked cars, general mayhem. Randomly spawning loot. Loot: things to help you survive. Guns, body armor, health kits, gasoline, vehicles, perfume, LOTS of items able to be combined (bottle + gasoline = cocktail anyone?). Some items are aggresive (guns) defensive (body armor) and some may attract zombies or patrols (flares, perfume, lights, etc.) Just an example of permadeath that would work AND be fun...
There seems to be some support for the concept of permadeath in an MMORPG, though noone really seems to have an idea how it could work. To aid discussion, I thought Id lay out what I perceive as the problems associated with permadeath, and hopefully that will spur some conception of possible solutions
The Overarching Problem ; Death = Game Over This is of course the overarching problem of permadeath, and to some extent the root of all other issues players will have with it. In most MMORPGS and for most people, the character (and its stats and equipment) are the -only- output of all the time and effort the player has put into the game. Simply put, if that is all lost due to permadeath, the player has essentially wasted all his/her time and will have to start from scratch. There is usually little incentive to do this, particularly as you will no longer be able to compete with current enemies (PvP) or assist current allies (PvP or PvE) due to the resulting disparity in power. Potential Overarching Solutions: - Seperating Some aspects of loss from others; for example while in Eve-Online, death results in the permenant loss of the ship (and usually equipment fitted to it), the character (and accumulated skills contained therein) remains. Of course, this approach -ISNT- true permadeath, even if it is still harsher than insta-respawn- carebear friendly mechanics.
- Enhancing the importance of non-character focussed achievement. This is an mechanic that, in my opinion, has been left relatively unexplored by existing games. Non-character achievements could be, for example, the achievements of a guild (eg making it worth losing your character to secure your guild (which your new character would still be in) particular rewards). Another example might be reputation; if reputation could both be important enough AND have some useful mechanic associated with it, and it persisted with the permadeath of your old character, players would be less concerned with the loss of their character.
Subproblem - Continuity & Futility Permadeath, and in particular having to start again with a new character, can sever any feeling of continuity for the player; what connection does your new character have to your old? Furthermore, this feeling can be compounded by the sense that the effort expended on the previous character was wasted as it nolonger affects you. Potential Solution; -A mechanic that links the success / characteristics of all the players characters, even after their permadeath. An example mechanic would be to have the players new character represent a relative of the original character, or a member of their clan, or something similar; the concept being that the original characters progress is to be continued by the new, related entity, rather than starting again from scratch. This also deals with the related problem of loss of reputation, as your 'family' or 'clan' can continue the reputation your now dead character established. This mechanic could extend to the maintanace of ingame achievements; for example say your original character had performed a lot of services for a particular NPC faction and earned favour (or even title) with them; this improved standing could carry over to the replacement character and thus the 'futility' of the original effort is assuaged.
Subproblem - Return to noob level Lets face it, if you spend months getting to high-end content, and then lose it all in one swift unsuccessful battle and have to start again from noob status you will be incredibly frustrated. Furthermore, you will probably no longer be able to function usefully with old peers who are now far far more powerful than (the new) you.
Potential Solution; -This goes to the underlying advancement mechanics of the game. In my opinion, for permadeath to work, longterm advancement / character progression CANNOT render one players character -vastly- superiour in every respect to another's. The concept one sees in many MMORPGs where a single level 60 can slaughter 50 level 40s is simply unacceptable when death = permenant. It would seem that a more subtle advancement tactic is needed. This could either take the form of improved diversity/flexibility (a la Planetside), or something more creative. There is a lot of scope for new, as yet unexplored avenues of advancement beyond mere stat- or equipment-whoring. Another example of a partially successful implementation of such a mechanic is eve-online, where a 6 month player can be 100% as affective -in a specific and particular role- as a 4 year player, though the older player will have many more different roles they can choose to fill. If this could be extended enough as a concept, so that advancement is rewarding but does not render you uber in comparison to 'fresh' characters, the problem will evaporate.
Conclusion Permadeath is problematic for a variety of reasons. Nevertheless, the problems most people forsee when they consider permadeath evapourate IF you are willing to design the game around permadeath and avoid classic MMORPG cliches such as exponential stat/equipment improvement curves, 'selfish' advancement mechanics etc. There is a LOT of scope for a creative game, WITHOUT requiring ultra-hardcore players only, which employs such a mechanic.
TL;DR? - Slapping permadeath onto existing MMORPG mechancis will not have mass appeal. BUT Permadeath might (easily and to great success) work if designers think outside the box with game mechanics.
Let's see: Permadeath, PVP, FPS-like game play. Folks clamoring for game designers to give those ideas a try. Give us something new. Well, that's new, I guess.
Go for it then. I won't be there, and likely few others will when the existing player base starts cancelling their subscriptions.
Another solution would be to make survival the ultimate objective. Say... zombie apocalypse. A large, open ended cityscape that has been ravaged by a zombie infection. Situated on a large island (such as manhattan...), the player must contend every day with zombies, other players, and frequent military extermination patrols. The player may only log off inside a building and only when no zombies or patrols are nearby. Permadeath and full loot! Zombies: Attracted to players whenever they are logged on (time survived is only accumulated when logged on). May carry some phat lewt, range from slow to fast and weak to tough. Loud noises (gunshots, vehicles, etc.) will attract them in greater numbers. Staying in one spot for an extended period of time will begin to attract stronger/faster zombies. Stay on the move! Players: PvP is open with full looting, but it is to the players advantage to team up (too large a group will attract too many zombies though). Extended battles between players will attract zombies vvveeerrryyy quickly... Military patrols: Helicopters and grunts with big guns and nbc suits. Shoot on site and are tough. May occasionally be overrun by zombies. Excellent loot! If you have the numbers/firepower to take down one of these patrols you should at any oppurtunity. Be warned... zombies will come out of the woodwork when they are around... City: buildings, wrecked cars, general mayhem. Randomly spawning loot. Loot: things to help you survive. Guns, body armor, health kits, gasoline, vehicles, perfume, LOTS of items able to be combined (bottle + gasoline = cocktail anyone?). Some items are aggresive (guns) defensive (body armor) and some may attract zombies or patrols (flares, perfume, lights, etc.) Just an example of permadeath that would work AND be fun...
What game? I really would want to play it. Thats a very rough outline for a zombie game regardless. If you referring to text/browser base I was thinking something more along the lines of an fps...
I'm curious, Shane, about the kind of game you want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want a game with: open PvP, no uber gear, no levels and no grinding. Tell me, what would you do in such a game? Is there PvE at all? If there is, why? You can't get exp and you can't get good gear.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
I think an MMO with permadeath would work fine, but it would require a radical change in how the content of the game is developed so that actual permadeath would be an extremely rare event, and recovering from permadeath would not be the end of the world.
The slight chance of permadeath in a game could dramatically increase the excitement level. For instance, I embarked on the effort to gain the "Undying" title in LoTRO on an alt, which requires you to get to level 20 without dying. Getting to level 20 takes roughly 25 hours of gameplay. Having that goal, and the prospect of failure hanging over my head made the gameplay much more tense and exciting, even though I was doing the same boring quests, and killing the same easy mobs.
1. The character advancement curve would have to be much shorter
2. PVP would be a virtual non-starter
3. The difficulty of the content would have to be geared such that it would be very rare to die. For instance, in large scale raid content, instead of gearing the difficulty to result in constant wiping, it would have to be done so that the death of even one character would be a huge failure. The result of this would be that the content would not have as much longevity, because it would be relatively easy to complete raid content and move on to the next one.
4. There would have to be other modes of failure that are far more common than death, and readily available means of rescue from death (e.g. Resurrection, Medevac, etc.)
Imagine a scenario comparing a permadeath game to a non-permadeath game:
Non-permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is killed during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and the group wipes. Everybody releases, runs back to their corpses, and we try again.
Permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is "killed" during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and are forced to retreat. They go back to the city and raise an alarm to assemble a big rescue party to rescue the downed player. In the alternative, say the whole group "wipes". They are taken prisoner. An alarm goes off in the city or quests automatically appear for players to attempt a rescue mission. Only on rare occasions would defeat in battle result in actual death, and even then, such a "death" could be reversed by magic and/or science.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Some games already offer permadeath modes-mythos,hellgate and shaiya (?) being examples. I think hellgate had a good idea for once the character actually dies,and you can only use it in hubs to show it off.
A leaderboard would be a good idea to see who managed to last the longest.
I think an MMO with permadeath would work fine, but it would require a radical change in how the content of the game is developed so that actual permadeath would be an extremely rare event, and recovering from permadeath would not be the end of the world. The slight chance of permadeath in a game could dramatically increase the excitement level. For instance, I embarked on the effort to gain the "Undying" title in LoTRO on an alt, which requires you to get to level 20 without dying. Getting to level 20 takes roughly 25 hours of gameplay. Having that goal, and the prospect of failure hanging over my head made the gameplay much more tense and exciting, even though I was doing the same boring quests, and killing the same easy mobs. 1. The character advancement curve would have to be much shorter 2. PVP would be a virtual non-starter 3. The difficulty of the content would have to be geared such that it would be very rare to die. For instance, in large scale raid content, instead of gearing the difficulty to result in constant wiping, it would have to be done so that the death of even one character would be a huge failure. The result of this would be that the content would not have as much longevity, because it would be relatively easy to complete raid content and move on to the next one. 4. There would have to be other modes of failure that are far more common than death, and readily available means of rescue from death (e.g. Resurrection, Medevac, etc.) Imagine a scenario comparing a permadeath game to a non-permadeath game: Non-permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is killed during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and the group wipes. Everybody releases, runs back to their corpses, and we try again. Permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is "killed" during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and are forced to retreat. They go back to the city and raise an alarm to assemble a big rescue party to rescue the downed player. In the alternative, say the whole group "wipes". They are taken prisoner. An alarm goes off in the city or quests automatically appear for players to attempt a rescue mission. Only on rare occasions would defeat in battle result in actual death, and even then, such a "death" could be reversed by magic and/or science.
Really cool ideas. I especially like the last one about quests appearing in town for other players to attempt rescue. And I agree that the game difficulty would have to be balanced well, as well as means to rescue players from the brink of death. I would think that maybe you don't die completely but are just seriously injured and cannot move untill someone heals you... kind of like DnD online does it. But alot longer count down till actual death.
This would also help with the adventures I mentioned in previous posts. They would be very risky endevours. If you were exploring far far away from any towns(trying to make a name for yourself) and your group got in over it's head it would be highly unlikely that any rescue party would be able to get to you in time. You would really have to play smart and plan well, or risk losing your life. But for those arround the towns that get beat in PvP and PvE, they have a very good chance of being rescued.
I'm curious, Shane, about the kind of game you want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want a game with: open PvP, no uber gear, no levels and no grinding. Tell me, what would you do in such a game? Is there PvE at all? If there is, why? You can't get exp and you can't get good gear.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
While this sounds somewhat interesting from a story point of view, I don't think I would play such a game unless that story had an ending, or came to a conclusion of some sort. I'm thinking of games like HalfLife. While there are a few weapon upgrades in those games, your character is basically the same as when he started. The motivation to keep playing a game like that is to see how it plays out, and ultimately bring the story to it's conclusion.
But MMOs, being persistant worlds by definition, have no conclusion. So, for me, I would have little motivation to play such a game. To each his own. Your game offers: permadeath, no uber gear, no levels, no uber skills, no contiguous story. I will say that sounds a whole lot like a RL game in a medieval setting. That's just a little too ordinary for me. I've no doubt such a game would attract some types of players, but I'm not one of them.
I'm curious, Shane, about the kind of game you want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want a game with: open PvP, no uber gear, no levels and no grinding. Tell me, what would you do in such a game? Is there PvE at all? If there is, why? You can't get exp and you can't get good gear.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
While this sounds somewhat interesting from a story point of view, I don't think I would play such a game unless that story had an ending, or came to a conclusion of some sort. I'm thinking of games like HalfLife. While there are a few weapon upgrades in those games, your character is basically the same as when he started. The motivation to keep playing a game like that is to see how it plays out, and ultimately bring the story to it's conclusion.
But MMOs, being persistant worlds by definition, have no conclusion. So, for me, I would have little motivation to play such a game. To each his own. Your game offers: permadeath, no uber gear, no levels, no uber skills, no contiguous story. I will say that sounds a whole lot like a RL game in a medieval setting. That's just a little too ordinary for me. I've no doubt such a game would attract some types of players, but I'm not one of them.
Understandable. I think that small stories can be put in if they are done well. They could be like quests...only you would have quests scattered arround that are really long and more like meaningfull short stories not just piddly tasks. They could constantly add new ones over time as needed. Only problem is they would affect replayability a bit. You wouldn't want to have to run the same one over because you died...
Thats where an idea I had mentioned in a different topic comes in. Making quests have multiple choices and outcomes. Allow the player to choose when/who to help and who not to. And allow those choices to lead to a different outcome as well as unlock new quests, that someone who didn't make those same choices would not have access to. This would then re-boost the replayability back to acceptable levels for a perma death game. Cause even if you run the same quest you would be able to play that quest in an entirely different way.( a few times preferably, like many different possible outcomes ect...)
If you rush through all the quest stories, you have the really well done community PvP to hold you over till they get some new quests and lands in.
I am not saying that it would be the perfect game, but it would damn sure be a nice change from the copy and past crap we are seeing today... Any change from what we have now is good change, I just would really love to have a game that has 100% replayability a mature/coordinated community and that is fun(and you can participate in) from the start, not once you have ground through 60 lvls of boredome.
Comments
We need a world where you can go and do whatever you want, without being restricted by levels. You know where you pack up some gear and set out for adventure. A game where encounters aren't static. Where one day an area is controlled by one group and when they are killed another different group moves in. This way when you do go looking for adventure, even if you when this way before in the past, you don't know what the hell to expect.
No one is going to want to start a new character and have no choice but to run the same quests again. No choice but to progress through the same areas in the same order because of level restrictions. To fight the same mobs standing in the same location again... All because of perma death.
"Character progression" has destroyed roleplay and has held games back for long enough. Noone wants to enjoy the experiance anymore they just want to get through the crap to raise a number... You don't have time for stuff like ,roleplay or fun, when you only have 2 hours to play and cannot get into the parts of the game that truely intrest you untill you have hit lvl 50ish and have gained certain skill powers. Trying to get into large open PvP or RVRPVP is a waste of time until you have reached lvl 50ish, cause those that were able to quicky fly through the "content" and hit 60, will kill you with one hit. Why bother joining in, what should be one of the most compelling aspects of MMOS, when you know you stand ZERO chance of accomplishing anything? Not to mention it is taking away from the 2 hrs you have to play, when you know you need to spend that rushing through the "content" to reach a level that will allow you to compete somewhat in PvP. Then after all that time,you finally reach a high enough level, you can expect to spend about half that ammount of time again, just doing the same crap over and over in hopes of getting the elusive UBER GEAR, cause the players that have it are kicking your ass!!
So instead of having kick ass PVP battles all over the world(player towns competing) you have a handfull of PVP battles with a few handfulls of players..in the same places over and over. And what are they fighting for? Cause the devleoper said these guys are good and these guys are bad...When does it get personal?Personal enough that you are driven to fight!! Like those SOB'S burned down our town!! Or they are killing all our game animals we will have nothing to eat unless we stop them and take what is rightfully ours!!
I don't know about you, but for me, that sure as hell beats go and fetch me 15 eyeballs from frogman slaves, 10 eyeballs from frogman warriors and 5 eyeballs from frogman casters..... Maybe thats just me though...
Pretty much,a Perma Death game requires a Living World. A world where the players shape the story through their choices and actions, and players,as people(that live breathe and die), are equals.
Sadly I don't expect to see a game like this anytime soon.
I think a permadeath game would be fun for me to watch, but I would never set virtual foot in it.
First off, I think if you have a game like this, when you die (and you will, guaranteed), you should lose everything. Everything on your person just becomes loot for your killer. So, all progress you have accomplished up to this point is utterly wiped out. A vicious, brutal world. It would certainly take people with a lot of patience to play a game like that. If I did, my monitor would likely go thru a nearby window at some point.
Here's why I think such a game will never be popular. When you read a book or watch a movie, you follow the journey of a main character or three as they progress. They learn, grow, adapt, survive, overcome hardship, etc on the way. By your observation of these characters, you become invested in them. You want to see what happens to them. Sure, one (or more) of them may die along the way, but it's usually in a tragic or meaningful manner.
If every book or movie your wrote had the main characters being killed of semi-regularly, with new unknowns then becoming the main characters, your interest would wane as you don't know or care for these constant replacements. People need a sense of continuity, of growth, of seeing Frodo make it to Mordor, or seeing Laura Croft finally get to that all-important item. This gives a sense of completion. The constant "starting again" that would be in a permadeath game would eventually become annoying and tiresome.
Admittedly, there would be some excitement if you had a character who had survived for a while, maybe acquiring some decent gear or skills, but sooner or later that he/she would be defeated, perhaps by a gang, and then what? The player in front of the screen would have a few moments of frustration/anguish/anger and then.... start a new character. Or quit. How many times would most be willing to start a character (again!)?
Finally, think of the kind of world such a game would be like. I'm not talking about towns or quests or politics per se, but rather the total anarachy that would thrive. Gangs of thugs would rule outside of protected zones (if they existed). You would be forced to join such a gang or be overwhelmed by numbers. Even if you were the leader of one of these gangs, eventually you would be deposed by some upstart and sent back to the starting gate.
Imagine in RL, if you were to set foot outside of your door, at any time anyone could come up and rob and kill you with no repercussions. How would you feel about going out?
I've no doubt a game like this would attract some people, but I think a lot of people would choose never to set foot in it. Some proof of this can be seen in the popularity of non pvp servers.
Biggest problem: Over-analytical nerds hemming and hawing over a simple issue
Easiest solution: JUST PUT IT IN
D2 did it. The only distinction you had was your character was "Hard Core". That's it.
Some people want permadeath for whatever reason. No problem. Just give it to them and stop there. You don't have to rework the entire game to accommodate them.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Another solution would be to make survival the ultimate objective.
Say... zombie apocalypse. A large, open ended cityscape that has been ravaged by a zombie infection. Situated on a large island (such as manhattan...
), the player must contend every day with zombies, other players, and frequent military extermination patrols. The player may only log off inside a building and only when no zombies or patrols are nearby. Permadeath and full loot!
Zombies: Attracted to players whenever they are logged on (time survived is only accumulated when logged on). May carry some phat lewt, range from slow to fast and weak to tough. Loud noises (gunshots, vehicles, etc.) will attract them in greater numbers. Staying in one spot for an extended period of time will begin to attract stronger/faster zombies. Stay on the move!
Players: PvP is open with full looting, but it is to the players advantage to team up (too large a group will attract too many zombies though). Extended battles between players will attract zombies vvveeerrryyy quickly...
Military patrols: Helicopters and grunts with big guns and nbc suits. Shoot on site and are tough. May occasionally be overrun by zombies. Excellent loot! If you have the numbers/firepower to take down one of these patrols you should at any oppurtunity. Be warned... zombies will come out of the woodwork when they are around...
City: buildings, wrecked cars, general mayhem. Randomly spawning loot.
Loot: things to help you survive. Guns, body armor, health kits, gasoline, vehicles, perfume, LOTS of items able to be combined (bottle + gasoline = cocktail anyone?). Some items are aggresive (guns) defensive (body armor) and some may attract zombies or patrols (flares, perfume, lights, etc.)
Just an example of permadeath that would work AND be fun...
- OR -
You could blatantly rip off another's idea without giving any credit to, or mentioning of them.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Go for it then. I won't be there, and likely few others will when the existing player base starts cancelling their subscriptions.
- OR -
You could blatantly rip off another's idea without giving any credit to, or mentioning of them.
What game? I really would want to play it. Thats a very rough outline for a zombie game regardless. If you referring to text/browser base I was thinking something more along the lines of an fps...
I'm curious, Shane, about the kind of game you want.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want a game with: open PvP, no uber gear, no levels and no grinding.
Tell me, what would you do in such a game? Is there PvE at all? If there is, why? You can't get exp and you can't get good gear.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
I think an MMO with permadeath would work fine, but it would require a radical change in how the content of the game is developed so that actual permadeath would be an extremely rare event, and recovering from permadeath would not be the end of the world.
The slight chance of permadeath in a game could dramatically increase the excitement level. For instance, I embarked on the effort to gain the "Undying" title in LoTRO on an alt, which requires you to get to level 20 without dying. Getting to level 20 takes roughly 25 hours of gameplay. Having that goal, and the prospect of failure hanging over my head made the gameplay much more tense and exciting, even though I was doing the same boring quests, and killing the same easy mobs.
1. The character advancement curve would have to be much shorter
2. PVP would be a virtual non-starter
3. The difficulty of the content would have to be geared such that it would be very rare to die. For instance, in large scale raid content, instead of gearing the difficulty to result in constant wiping, it would have to be done so that the death of even one character would be a huge failure. The result of this would be that the content would not have as much longevity, because it would be relatively easy to complete raid content and move on to the next one.
4. There would have to be other modes of failure that are far more common than death, and readily available means of rescue from death (e.g. Resurrection, Medevac, etc.)
Imagine a scenario comparing a permadeath game to a non-permadeath game:
Non-permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is killed during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and the group wipes. Everybody releases, runs back to their corpses, and we try again.
Permadeath: A group of players attacks an enemy facility (e.g. instance) and one player is "killed" during a fight. Because this player is killed, the others cannot finish the fight, and are forced to retreat. They go back to the city and raise an alarm to assemble a big rescue party to rescue the downed player. In the alternative, say the whole group "wipes". They are taken prisoner. An alarm goes off in the city or quests automatically appear for players to attempt a rescue mission. Only on rare occasions would defeat in battle result in actual death, and even then, such a "death" could be reversed by magic and/or science.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Some games already offer permadeath modes-mythos,hellgate and shaiya (?) being examples. I think hellgate had a good idea for once the character actually dies,and you can only use it in hubs to show it off.
A leaderboard would be a good idea to see who managed to last the longest.
This would also help with the adventures I mentioned in previous posts. They would be very risky endevours. If you were exploring far far away from any towns(trying to make a name for yourself) and your group got in over it's head it would be highly unlikely that any rescue party would be able to get to you in time. You would really have to play smart and plan well, or risk losing your life. But for those arround the towns that get beat in PvP and PvE, they have a very good chance of being rescued.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
While this sounds somewhat interesting from a story point of view, I don't think I would play such a game unless that story had an ending, or came to a conclusion of some sort. I'm thinking of games like HalfLife. While there are a few weapon upgrades in those games, your character is basically the same as when he started. The motivation to keep playing a game like that is to see how it plays out, and ultimately bring the story to it's conclusion.But MMOs, being persistant worlds by definition, have no conclusion. So, for me, I would have little motivation to play such a game. To each his own. Your game offers: permadeath, no uber gear, no levels, no uber skills, no contiguous story. I will say that sounds a whole lot like a RL game in a medieval setting. That's just a little too ordinary for me. I've no doubt such a game would attract some types of players, but I'm not one of them.
It would mainly be player fueled conflict over land or resources, protecting your homes and towns.
But yeah, you would have some PvE. But it would mainly be for food or materials. You would have bandits and other creatures that set up lairs or camps in random locations. Those creatures would attack towns and travelers between towns. It would be up to the players to stop them, and keep their areas safe for player merchants visiting their town as well as their own community.
You would also have a accomplishment page. That tracks your accomplishments like slaying a dragon or some other great beast. Could possibly grant you a title like Dragon Slayer. And towns might want to hire you to kill a dragon for them,since they know you have a good chance of getting the job done.They would obviously be difficult to find and in far off hard to reach locations. That you have to explore to find. And that location would change for new dragons or beasts each time they are killed. The new creature would find a suitable location and build a lair or camp or whatever then look for food or supplies.
Imagine you(and your pack mule) come to a town and the poeple tell you to "be wary of the dragon, stranger". They believe it was living in the mountains off to the north. And he had attacked the town a few times in the last week stealing their food,the much needed cattle. Noone had been able to find the lair yet, bad weather and the lack of food has made the journey very difficult for the local would be slayers. You remove your hood and /introduce yourself, and they can then see that you are a Dragon Slayer. The towns folk or town leader may then hire you to track the beast down. Probably a few those locals would voulenteer to help. You would then gather needed supplies(add them to the food and gear you had on your mule) and plan your adventure. All done by players, no NPC's.
Would obvioulsly have to be a large world, so that players are spread out over a large area. Where it actually takes a bit of time to travel one town to the next. But you get the jest.
And as for the gear, it would all be the same, but you can find different styles. A really wicked and cool looking long sword or great axe. But it would still be only as effective as it's counterparts. Would mainly be for the looks or who's weapon it was. Now some may have more durability than others but again one longsword would be as effective as the next.
While this sounds somewhat interesting from a story point of view, I don't think I would play such a game unless that story had an ending, or came to a conclusion of some sort. I'm thinking of games like HalfLife. While there are a few weapon upgrades in those games, your character is basically the same as when he started. The motivation to keep playing a game like that is to see how it plays out, and ultimately bring the story to it's conclusion.But MMOs, being persistant worlds by definition, have no conclusion. So, for me, I would have little motivation to play such a game. To each his own. Your game offers: permadeath, no uber gear, no levels, no uber skills, no contiguous story. I will say that sounds a whole lot like a RL game in a medieval setting. That's just a little too ordinary for me. I've no doubt such a game would attract some types of players, but I'm not one of them.
Understandable. I think that small stories can be put in if they are done well. They could be like quests...only you would have quests scattered arround that are really long and more like meaningfull short stories not just piddly tasks. They could constantly add new ones over time as needed. Only problem is they would affect replayability a bit. You wouldn't want to have to run the same one over because you died...
Thats where an idea I had mentioned in a different topic comes in. Making quests have multiple choices and outcomes. Allow the player to choose when/who to help and who not to. And allow those choices to lead to a different outcome as well as unlock new quests, that someone who didn't make those same choices would not have access to. This would then re-boost the replayability back to acceptable levels for a perma death game. Cause even if you run the same quest you would be able to play that quest in an entirely different way.( a few times preferably, like many different possible outcomes ect...)
If you rush through all the quest stories, you have the really well done community PvP to hold you over till they get some new quests and lands in.
I am not saying that it would be the perfect game, but it would damn sure be a nice change from the copy and past crap we are seeing today... Any change from what we have now is good change, I just would really love to have a game that has 100% replayability a mature/coordinated community and that is fun(and you can participate in) from the start, not once you have ground through 60 lvls of boredome.