Heres a great reason why slow combat rocks. It's taken from a WoW Pally player who I think know's what he's talking about. Of course its about low DPS and not slow combat, but I think you get the picture.
I can see how the whole community playing RvR is all sitting and watching pr0n. No interaction at all, everyone is just standing still auto-attacking. Good point, recommend everyone to read it!.
Right? I mean to hell with all those fast paced twitch style gameplay, and fast paced action, leave that to the "hardcore" gamers. I personally enjoy slow attack, I can enjoy myself with talking with friends, making new ones, you know being social. All at the SAME time I'm playing a slow paced MMO. Crazy isn't it? I guess hardcore gamers are just too busy having their eyes sucked into a screen while waist deep in feces and mountain dew code red cans to see that huh?
Interesting how this thread hasn't been removed, yet a negative thread about AoC and its Shadowbane-like bugs was removed. Makes you wanna go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
For all the flash that Asian MMO's have, I've yet to play one that has even come close to interesting me. For whatever reason, they just don't seem real big on customization/innovation... just in spending copious amounts of time grinding.
I'm surprised at the number of people that seem to think that circle-strafing is meant to be some valid barometer of a player's skill in RPG PvP. Being able to maintain constant motion to take advantage of bad game mechanics isn't twitch or skill. You're not "reacting" to anything. It's just latency, and/or the inability of the target to use mouse turn.
I'm all for having twitch based elements to liven up a game, but they should be reactive in nature. AoC might be doing it well enough. A game like WAR though, obviously is trying to make the winner of the battle determined by less twitch and more by use of morale and tactics.
If we want epic 40 v 40 person siege battles, that's probably something we'll have to live with. We'll see. WoW PvP looked even more boring from what little I saw going on in beta. (If you ask me, it still LOOKS boring.) I'll reserve judgement til I've played the game a bit, and seen what the higher level characters are capable of doing.
The faster player usually is the more skilled player is he/she not? That's one of prime factors in deciding a players skill. His/her ability to respond to situations and react accordingly. DAOC was just less twitch than WoW and I think WAR will be too, but it will stand somewhere between DAOC and WoW.
If you are playing a 6 person FPS over a LAN, sure speed is relatively equal to skill. In a MMO played over the internet, speed is just a measure of latency of the person's ISP. I switched from DSL to FioS while playing WoW and it was rather impressive how much my "skills" improved when I switched.
A good developer is going to add delays to compensate for variations in latency. Mythic is a good developer.
The faster player usually is the more skilled player is he/she not? That's one of prime factors in deciding a players skill. His/her ability to respond to situations and react accordingly. DAOC was just less twitch than WoW and I think WAR will be too, but it will stand somewhere between DAOC and WoW.
If you are playing a 6 person FPS over a LAN, sure speed is relatively equal to skill. In a MMO played over the internet, speed is just a measure of latency of the person's ISP. I switched from DSL to FioS while playing WoW and it was rather impressive how much my "skills" improved when I switched.
A good developer is going to add delays to compensate for variations in latency. Mythic is a good developer.
Well I'm not tech-savvy but I do think latency is another factor, however nowadays I don't find it as important as you make it seem. If you think your FioS would decide a victory over my broadband in an MMO then we need to duel! heh
Originally posted by TheFonzV2.0 Originally posted by Godliest
Originally posted by TheFonzV2.0 Heres a great reason why slow combat rocks. It's taken from a WoW Pally player who I think know's what he's talking about. Of course its about low DPS and not slow combat, but I think you get the picture. img310.imageshack.us/img310/2584/paladins0gf.jpg
I can see how the whole community playing RvR is all sitting and watching pr0n. No interaction at all, everyone is just standing still auto-attacking. Good point, recommend everyone to read it!. Right? I mean to hell with all those fast paced twitch style gameplay, and fast paced action, leave that to the "hardcore" gamers. I personally enjoy slow attack, I can enjoy myself with talking with friends, making new ones, you know being social. All at the SAME time I'm playing a slow paced MMO. Crazy isn't it? I guess hardcore gamers are just too busy having their eyes sucked into a screen while waist deep in feces and mountain dew code red cans to see that huh?
I don't know if you argued against me, if so I couldn't agree more with you. I personally don't like the gameplay that AoC (tries) to feature, I prefer when the combat is pretty slow and allows for chatting etc, but for that sake it shouldn't too slow then it gets boring.
However as PvP usually is about thinking fast it could be good if the combat isn't all too fast paced as then it will allow for decently fast thinking people to stand a chance to beat the quicker ones.
AoC is not very fast. If anything it looks a little bit slower than Daoc. Yes it has FPS style targeting but it also have realistic combat speeds and it penalize people who run around during melee. So I dont think it will favor twitchers and circle runners.
To me WaR looked very much like DaoC people just seemed to last longer (but that might be because people assist like crazy all the time in DaoC).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
AoC is not very fast. If anything it looks a little bit slower than Daoc. Yes it has FPS style targeting but it also have realistic combat speeds and it penalize people who run around during melee. So I dont think it will favor twitchers and circle runners. To me WaR looked very much like DaoC people just seemed to last longer (but that might be because people assist like crazy all the time in DaoC).
I'll agree that in a few videos I saw of AoC the combat was pretty mild speed wise, but the problem is that people think that twitch action gameplay means it's going to look and feel more like an FPS, which usually means fast, when really it's just trying to add more to the realism factor. That could pose a lot of annoying complaints.
A twitch game is a computer or video game in which the user must react quickly to circumstances, to continue playing and win the game. Such skill is a common element of many kinds of video games, from first-person shooters like Doom, where the sudden appearance of dangerous monsters invoke the fight or flight response, to puzzle games like Tetris, where the speed of the game mirrors the player's progress.
The advantage to a twitch game is that the movement is quick, and the feedback immediate. This works to keep the user actively engaged. Any time a player actively responds to a rapidly changing scenario within a game, the player is said to be "twitching". Twitch can be used to expand tactical options and play, test skill in various areas (usually reflexive responses) and generally add difficulty (relating to the intensity of "twitching" required).
Twitch games, when applied as a genre, refer to games where success is essentially guaranteed by correct "twitching". Such games can fall under other categories, but success is still essentially based on "twitch".
True RPGs are not based on a players physical skill level. If I'm role playing an archer, I, personally, shouldn't be required to have the real life dexterity of an archer. Even if an FPS style game incorporated role playing elements, it would never be a true RPG simply because it would exclude so many people from playing it as such.
Personally, I'm sick to death of people thinking they're good at games simply because they find some cheezy tactic that prevents people from responding correctly in combat. Hence, I don't play games like WoW, who's PvP systems are so out of balance.
While I have no problem with slower, more tactical combat - I actually applaud it - what really bugs me about the WAR gameplay vids I have seen so far is lack of crowd control/snare abilities. Everyone seem to rush into combat and either stand there (casting spells and whatnot) or running around at normal speed - and this is what makes the combat bland for me. Kiting, snaring, crowd control is fun, especially if you are outnumbered.
Or have I just been unlucky in the choice of vids I have seen?
Kiting, snaring, crowd control is fun, especially if you are outnumbered.
Only the crowd controller has fun, everyone else is pissed off that they are stuck like a statue for 30 seconds to a minute.
I figure if you are unlucky (or dumb) enough to find yourself outnumbered, short of your superior skill in other areas such as combat, healing or what not you should find yourself flattened.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't agree with last post ... Daoc combat are enjoyable and viable.
Edit: Part if last post: "DAOC combat looked crap" -> agreed but normal for such an old game
"and played like crap........" -> disagreed
You have styles, positional styles, you must turn slam then turn around the enemy. It's true that the animations are poor and very repetitive (like the infamous "scout evade animation" ... lol ) BUT combats are really enjoyable if you know your toon well.
Anyway, I didn't saw any impressive combat video yet, even if I'm a WAR fan. And I watched ALL of them (via newsletter/youtube.. perhaps missed a few ). We'll see if it's worth our money soon
Yes wow is very much a blend of the east and west in game styles. IMO the worst thing you see in mmo pvp is circle strafing. It has nothing to do with real swordplay and is an artificial construction created by bad programming. One of the great things about daoc pvp were that circle strafing gained you NOTHING if your enemy werent stupid. They also programmed melee and ranged in such a way that melee were actually useful in pvp (action - delay instead of delay - action that you had for ranged attacks). MMOs have a different kind of skill than FPS games when it comes to pvp. Its knowing your role, and when to do one thing or another. DaoC were extremely unforgiving against stupid players and rewarded good players. WoW just reward the fast player rather than the skilled one. BTW AoC have FPS targeting in combat but they know about circle strafters. Thats why you do almost no damage , take more damage, spend much more endurance and suffer additional bad effects if you move while fighting there. Thats good game design.
Several beta leaks running around the net indicates bland gameplay (static action, mash buttons repeatedly...), and the gameplay videos available seems to support that "rumor". 6 months before release, its already too late to revamp combat gameplay.
What's your take on this?
What's the problem?
Not enough WoW-style bunny-hopping, smack-talking, sheep-morphing, fearing, rooting, snaring, and stealth-ganking for you???
Good.
Pretty much, the current beta group (which is a considerbale number) seems to be happy. I find it beyond hilariouse that we have this well oiled hate machine that is busting it's ass 24/7 trying to spread as much BS as possible about the game....Blizzard must be truly worried.
Several beta leaks running around the net indicates bland gameplay (static action, mash buttons repeatedly...), and the gameplay videos available seems to support that "rumor". 6 months before release, its already too late to revamp combat gameplay.
What's your take on this?
The gameplay videos only show people at game conventions test-playing the game with pre-selected characters. Naturally, they are neither practiced nor comfortable with the game controls.
The beta RvR footage recently released shows people who were directed by the devs to stand still and not go wildly running and jumping about.
Your source -- those so-called "beta leaks running around the Net" -- are not beta leaks at all. They are oft-repeated WoW-players criticism who view gameplay vids and say static action, mash buttons, etc. Those WoWers are one-trick ponies who have no clue how to even think about another MMO.
Note: there is no reason to revamp combat mechanics.
Several beta leaks running around the net indicates bland gameplay (static action, mash buttons repeatedly...), and the gameplay videos available seems to support that "rumor". 6 months before release, its already too late to revamp combat gameplay.
What's your take on this?
WAR is not about revolutionary combat and which game is not button smashing?
Comments
I can see how the whole community playing RvR is all sitting and watching pr0n. No interaction at all, everyone is just standing still auto-attacking. Good point, recommend everyone to read it!.
Right? I mean to hell with all those fast paced twitch style gameplay, and fast paced action, leave that to the "hardcore" gamers. I personally enjoy slow attack, I can enjoy myself with talking with friends, making new ones, you know being social. All at the SAME time I'm playing a slow paced MMO. Crazy isn't it? I guess hardcore gamers are just too busy having their eyes sucked into a screen while waist deep in feces and mountain dew code red cans to see that huh?
Bollocks!
Didn't WoW's Beta videos have similar slow-paced fighting footage?
I'll not judge any game by videos on the net made by random people, I'll play the game at my skill level then judge it. ;P
-iCeh
Interesting how this thread hasn't been removed, yet a negative thread about AoC and its Shadowbane-like bugs was removed. Makes you wanna go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
For all the flash that Asian MMO's have, I've yet to play one that has even come close to interesting me. For whatever reason, they just don't seem real big on customization/innovation... just in spending copious amounts of time grinding.
I'm surprised at the number of people that seem to think that circle-strafing is meant to be some valid barometer of a player's skill in RPG PvP. Being able to maintain constant motion to take advantage of bad game mechanics isn't twitch or skill. You're not "reacting" to anything. It's just latency, and/or the inability of the target to use mouse turn.
I'm all for having twitch based elements to liven up a game, but they should be reactive in nature. AoC might be doing it well enough. A game like WAR though, obviously is trying to make the winner of the battle determined by less twitch and more by use of morale and tactics.
If we want epic 40 v 40 person siege battles, that's probably something we'll have to live with. We'll see. WoW PvP looked even more boring from what little I saw going on in beta. (If you ask me, it still LOOKS boring.) I'll reserve judgement til I've played the game a bit, and seen what the higher level characters are capable of doing.
A good developer is going to add delays to compensate for variations in latency. Mythic is a good developer.
A good developer is going to add delays to compensate for variations in latency. Mythic is a good developer.
Well I'm not tech-savvy but I do think latency is another factor, however nowadays I don't find it as important as you make it seem. If you think your FioS would decide a victory over my broadband in an MMO then we need to duel! heh
I can see how the whole community playing RvR is all sitting and watching pr0n. No interaction at all, everyone is just standing still auto-attacking. Good point, recommend everyone to read it!.
Right? I mean to hell with all those fast paced twitch style gameplay, and fast paced action, leave that to the "hardcore" gamers. I personally enjoy slow attack, I can enjoy myself with talking with friends, making new ones, you know being social. All at the SAME time I'm playing a slow paced MMO. Crazy isn't it? I guess hardcore gamers are just too busy having their eyes sucked into a screen while waist deep in feces and mountain dew code red cans to see that huh?
I don't know if you argued against me, if so I couldn't agree more with you. I personally don't like the gameplay that AoC (tries) to feature, I prefer when the combat is pretty slow and allows for chatting etc, but for that sake it shouldn't too slow then it gets boring.
However as PvP usually is about thinking fast it could be good if the combat isn't all too fast paced as then it will allow for decently fast thinking people to stand a chance to beat the quicker ones.
AoC is not very fast. If anything it looks a little bit slower than Daoc. Yes it has FPS style targeting but it also have realistic combat speeds and it penalize people who run around during melee. So I dont think it will favor twitchers and circle runners.
To me WaR looked very much like DaoC people just seemed to last longer (but that might be because people assist like crazy all the time in DaoC).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
I'll agree that in a few videos I saw of AoC the combat was pretty mild speed wise, but the problem is that people think that twitch action gameplay means it's going to look and feel more like an FPS, which usually means fast, when really it's just trying to add more to the realism factor. That could pose a lot of annoying complaints.
Bollocks!
From Wikipedia.
A twitch game is a computer or video game in which the user must react quickly to circumstances, to continue playing and win the game. Such skill is a common element of many kinds of video games, from first-person shooters like Doom, where the sudden appearance of dangerous monsters invoke the fight or flight response, to puzzle games like Tetris, where the speed of the game mirrors the player's progress.
The advantage to a twitch game is that the movement is quick, and the feedback immediate. This works to keep the user actively engaged. Any time a player actively responds to a rapidly changing scenario within a game, the player is said to be "twitching". Twitch can be used to expand tactical options and play, test skill in various areas (usually reflexive responses) and generally add difficulty (relating to the intensity of "twitching" required).
Twitch games, when applied as a genre, refer to games where success is essentially guaranteed by correct "twitching". Such games can fall under other categories, but success is still essentially based on "twitch".
True RPGs are not based on a players physical skill level. If I'm role playing an archer, I, personally, shouldn't be required to have the real life dexterity of an archer. Even if an FPS style game incorporated role playing elements, it would never be a true RPG simply because it would exclude so many people from playing it as such.
Personally, I'm sick to death of people thinking they're good at games simply because they find some cheezy tactic that prevents people from responding correctly in combat. Hence, I don't play games like WoW, who's PvP systems are so out of balance.
While I have no problem with slower, more tactical combat - I actually applaud it - what really bugs me about the WAR gameplay vids I have seen so far is lack of crowd control/snare abilities. Everyone seem to rush into combat and either stand there (casting spells and whatnot) or running around at normal speed - and this is what makes the combat bland for me. Kiting, snaring, crowd control is fun, especially if you are outnumbered.
Or have I just been unlucky in the choice of vids I have seen?
Only the crowd controller has fun, everyone else is pissed off that they are stuck like a statue for 30 seconds to a minute.
I figure if you are unlucky (or dumb) enough to find yourself outnumbered, short of your superior skill in other areas such as combat, healing or what not you should find yourself flattened.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't agree with last post ... Daoc combat are enjoyable and viable.
Edit: Part if last post: "DAOC combat looked crap" -> agreed but normal for such an old game
"and played like crap........" -> disagreed
You have styles, positional styles, you must turn slam then turn around the enemy. It's true that the animations are poor and very repetitive (like the infamous "scout evade animation" ... lol ) BUT combats are really enjoyable if you know your toon well.
Anyway, I didn't saw any impressive combat video yet, even if I'm a WAR fan. And I watched ALL of them (via newsletter/youtube.. perhaps missed a few ). We'll see if it's worth our money soon
AMEN
What's the problem?
Not enough WoW-style bunny-hopping, smack-talking, sheep-morphing, fearing, rooting, snaring, and stealth-ganking for you???
Good.
Pretty much, the current beta group (which is a considerbale number) seems to be happy. I find it beyond hilariouse that we have this well oiled hate machine that is busting it's ass 24/7 trying to spread as much BS as possible about the game....Blizzard must be truly worried.
The beta RvR footage recently released shows people who were directed by the devs to stand still and not go wildly running and jumping about.
Your source -- those so-called "beta leaks running around the Net" -- are not beta leaks at all. They are oft-repeated WoW-players criticism who view gameplay vids and say static action, mash buttons, etc. Those WoWers are one-trick ponies who have no clue how to even think about another MMO.
Note: there is no reason to revamp combat mechanics.
~ Ancient Membership ~
WAR is not about revolutionary combat and which game is not button smashing?