It is to late for V:SoH It can limp along for years in the Sony All Access bin of failed games. But, it will never be the AAA product it could have been if it had been finished before being foisted out onto the world. MMROPG players (in the main) simply will no longer put up with, or pay for, junk being sold to us so we can pay for testing and completion costs. Sure, some fan-boyz will always stick with a game they have committed to. Until they as well silently vanish from the stage (you know who you are). Very vocal about how "V:SoH Sucks Less Than The Rest". But, it does suck. Still. So, no. This game was done for when they launched unfinished. And, it can never come back. Time to move on.
Alas, I fear this is true.
I have paid and hope so long, but I see the end of this road. It already has entered SWG-mode now: no expansions but small new "chapters" with mini changes here and there, all coming few and sparse. #
VG is broken in WAY more ways than merely performance and bugs, its totally incoherent, never knew what kind of game it wanted to be, and most of all totally lacks "soul". Its a bit like a lavalamp. Its cool to look at when you see it for the first time, but soon you realize there is little else inside that is relly "alive".
I bemoan this, but all we heard from this recent developer revelation shows it. They hastily stiichted the game in one year together and Smed, when he had bought the game was shocked what trash he had gotten. So its post-NGE SWG mode now all over again. Its like a ghost in a spooky castle, who just doesnt know he is already dead.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Marketing isn't what made Vanguard a failure. It was poor performance.
Your opinion, my opinion it was based on hardcore rule set. Sure, it could be said it was watered down but it was still hardcore by comparison. Problem with making it more playable is, the game was based on hardcore bs so you can't sell the same old "stuff" in a different box. I think they should just make the bloody game insane hardcore, hell put permadeath in it. Why not, it's not going to compete with the newer games coming out so target a small nicht market.
It's not just my opinion. It's the general consensus that the game performed poorly. Fundamentally it failed, so whether or not it was hardcore becomes incidental. Had they released a game at launch that was not so buggy and performed smoothly, then we could test your assumptions.
I'm not sure if you are into research as I am but I'd love to see the consensus data. How was it carried out? what method did they use? I certainly hope you are not just referring to the general consensus with your friends.
Uh, looking at porn on your computer is not research.
Anyway, the context of these boards does not require that I do research to form an opinion. You are basically trying to impose upon me your professional constraints of the word 'consensus' .
Consensus as I was using it just means generally agreed upon. It is generally agreed upon that a turd stinks. I don't need data to validate or invalidate that opinion. Perhaps you could conduct a study though and publish your results here.
I think a well planned relaunch or "a marketing stunt" from SOE would increase the number of players. More players create more "life" in the world and in the cities. More players makes it easier to get groups and improves the gameplay in a heavily group oriented game. More players make it easier for SOE to invest in further development. And so on...
So what defines a "perfect" mmo? 9.5 million subscribers? I don't think so...from a financial view, yes of course it that is an success, but not necessarily seen from the players perspective. More interesting is, how many players do SOE need to continue blowing life into Vanguard? They are still working hard to improve the game, so at least they must see a potential. And; since I really enjoy the game, that's more than enough for me as a player to see a potential.
So let's assume SOE makes the double number of subscribers during 2008. Maybe that will give an acceptable population on the exisiting servers, maybe that is enough to finance an acceptable grade of development on VG in the future? That would at least make Telon a future place to be for me. I'd just as well tag along with 150K+- more or less mature, more or less pleased subscribers in a non-mainstream mmo I like as playing yet another multi-million subs game (whatever ambitions AoC/WAR/insert mmo have).
The general improvements in performance etc in VG since launch are massive, and there are still updates soon to come adressing a lot of the existing bugs and problems. I 'm sure SOE doesn't put this effort into VG to directly compete with the huge titles coming up in 2008. VG offers something different. VG aims at another audience. I think SOE see that there are enough potential customers looking for exactly what a "polished" VG has to offer - to make it; from their financial perspective; worth what it takes.
If you do things right, you can start a pizza store on the corner and make an acceptable income of it; you don't necessarily have to "compete" with Pizza Hut.
Originally posted by Diablito So what defines a "perfect" mmo? 9.5 million subscribers?
Well - some people think this way. The guys who throw one WoW clone after the other after us, specifically.
Mind I'm not saying WoW isnt good in some respects. But honestly, I have no idea how they got 9.5 Mio people do their super boring raidgrind endgame, and how people can keep up with these awful overly colorful comic style graphics is beyond me as well.
Theres IMHO really no need to copy any of that.
Originally posted by Diablito
So let's assume SOE makes the double number of subscribers during 2008. Maybe that will give an acceptable population on the exisiting servers, maybe that is enough to finance an acceptable grade of development on VG in the future? That would at least make Telon a future place to be for me. I'd just as well tag along with 150K+- more or less mature, more or less pleased subscribers in a non-mainstream mmo I like as playing yet another multi-million subs game (whatever ambitions AoC/WAR/insert mmo have).
I have to say that I simply see no alternative to Vanguard in the near future. Its still closest to what I really want to play.
If the problem with Vanguard was just performance then more people would be hearing the rumours of how the game is "fixed" and be coming back. The problem is there was far more wrong with Vanguard than just the bugs. The game is a boring grindfest from start to finish with no real improvements from previous released MMO's. The world is bland and empty, there's no story to the world and nothing going on. There is a little background information hidden away in diplomacy but nothing actively happening. There's no hook to the game and nothing to make your character feel like real person in a real world. If you like the levelling treadmill they have that in spades with 3 spheres to work on and some minor fluff you can grind to achieve like boats, houses, and the special mounts, but no real innovative gameplay.
If the problem with Vanguard was just performance then more people would be hearing the rumours of how the game is "fixed" and be coming back. The problem is there was far more wrong with Vanguard than just the bugs. The game is a boring grindfest from start to finish with no real improvements from previous released MMO's. The world is bland and empty, there's no story to the world and nothing going on. There is a little background information hidden away in diplomacy but nothing actively happening. There's no hook to the game and nothing to make your character feel like real person in a real world. If you like the levelling treadmill they have that in spades with 3 spheres to work on and some minor fluff you can grind to achieve like boats, houses, and the special mounts, but no real innovative gameplay.
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
If the problem with Vanguard was just performance then more people would be hearing the rumours of how the game is "fixed" and be coming back. The problem is there was far more wrong with Vanguard than just the bugs. The game is a boring grindfest from start to finish with no real improvements from previous released MMO's. The world is bland and empty, there's no story to the world and nothing going on. There is a little background information hidden away in diplomacy but nothing actively happening. There's no hook to the game and nothing to make your character feel like real person in a real world. If you like the levelling treadmill they have that in spades with 3 spheres to work on and some minor fluff you can grind to achieve like boats, houses, and the special mounts, but no real innovative gameplay.
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
There is a such thing as having one too many problems, you know? I'm certain for every negative aspect Vanguard has, at least one MMO out there suffers from the same negative aspect as well, and its subs are reflected accordingly.
Vanguard though has enough negative aspects to sink it into the hole that its in now.
So really, everytime someone brings up an issue they dislike about Vanguard, the grounds aren't really leveled when a random MMO is mentioned as suffering the same issue. The amount and severity of issues are different; problems aren't much of problems when singled out, but when they compound...you have Vanguard.
That said, I agree with caldis. Performance problems were merely "one" barrier Vanguard had when it came to a player figuring out whether or not they'll play the game. Even if the game began running 100 FPS for everyone that tried it today, there's still the whole "is this game fun?" question everyone has to ask.
If the problem with Vanguard was just performance then more people would be hearing the rumours of how the game is "fixed" and be coming back. The problem is there was far more wrong with Vanguard than just the bugs. The game is a boring grindfest from start to finish with no real improvements from previous released MMO's. The world is bland and empty, there's no story to the world and nothing going on. There is a little background information hidden away in diplomacy but nothing actively happening. There's no hook to the game and nothing to make your character feel like real person in a real world. If you like the levelling treadmill they have that in spades with 3 spheres to work on and some minor fluff you can grind to achieve like boats, houses, and the special mounts, but no real innovative gameplay.
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
There is a such thing as having one too many problems, you know? I'm certain for every negative aspect Vanguard has, at least one MMO out there suffers from the same negative aspect as well, and its subs are reflected accordingly.
Vanguard though has enough negative aspects to sink it into the hole that its in now.
So really, everytime someone brings up an issue they dislike about Vanguard, the grounds aren't really leveled when a random MMO is mentioned as suffering the same issue. The amount and severity of issues are different; problems aren't much of problems when singled out, but when they compound...you have Vanguard.
That said, I agree with caldis. Performance problems were merely "one" barrier Vanguard had when it came to a player figuring out whether or not they'll play the game. Even if the game began running 100 FPS for everyone that tried it today, there's still the whole "is this game fun?" question everyone has to ask.
well for me and most people in my guild preformance isnt and never has been a barrier , now every game ive played i had to stuggle with what i liked and didnt like about the game For us vanguards is awesome where a family and friends guild thats been around since the pen and paper days. We have our own custom ui for the game we have plenty of fun playing vanguard
The question i would ask is why ive never ever seen you or caldis post one thing positive about vanguard which i think is kinda strange myself Theres lots of games i dont like and wont ever pay another cent to play but theres not one i cant atleast say ya it had its good and bad points
You didnt find the game fun and cladis didnt find the game fun , fine by me but theres lots of people that do . who cares about subs theres more than enough people on my server for us to stay right here . Lifes to short friend if you dont find the game fun move on go find one you do like
Well I went back and tried it while waiting for AOC or something. It does still look very nice, my fps were in the 25-40s everything cranked at 1920. The poster a few posts up is right.. GRIND.. I leveled twice (already had a toon from the past) just grinding and got about 6 bones. Man NO loot at all. The respawn in most places is awful. You know you kill one the next (moving into the camp) then the next and poof there all back. The chat is active lol but the last thing I saw was "lvl 49 lfg ANYTHING?" theres ALOT of LFG. I like to just kill and grind to see what I get but man I got NOTHING and died so many times because the respawn is FAST. They got the weather going.. LOL yet it snows in places that should never get snow. The artist did a beautiful job in some places. Oh and I have NEVER seen so many gold spammers in a mmo. In 1h of play you get like 10-20 in the chat selling gold sometimes less. And yet some of the OLD bugs are still there 1y later.
Can it be saved? SOE has it .. I really dont think so. I hope it can.
The question i would ask is why ive never ever seen you or caldis post one thing positive about vanguard which i think is kinda strange myself Theres lots of games i dont like and wont ever pay another cent to play but theres not one i cant atleast say ya it had its good and bad points
I've posted positive comments before and if you want them again here they are. The diplomacy starting lines are great especially for a few races like the Kurasha and the Dark Elves The graphics and city designs were pretty amazing in places. Bordinars Cleft is really cool, Leth Nurae, Caial Brae, Khal, Ahgram, all interesting designs. The classes are well done.
The sad thing is there are good things in the game, and they hint at how good the game could be, instead you get the feeling of how unfinished and below what they had intended the rushed release forced this game to become.
I've been playing for the past two months and if it wasn't for another game that I've been following for quite some time I'd continue.
It's a good game and the community (on Seradon at least) are a very decent bunch of people.
Vanguard is now on the back burner for me (just canceled, but not because I was dissatisfied, I had prior commitments), but should I be let down by my next game I'll definitely return.
A relaunch may generate more subs for sure, but the idea of the 'Trial Isle' etc. is a bad move imo although it's rumored this may not be implemented.
Well I went back and tried it while waiting for AOC or something. It does still look very nice, my fps were in the 25-40s everything cranked at 1920. The poster a few posts up is right.. GRIND.. I leveled twice (already had a toon from the past) just grinding and got about 6 bones. Man NO loot at all. The respawn in most places is awful. You know you kill one the next (moving into the camp) then the next and poof there all back. The chat is active lol but the last thing I saw was "lvl 49 lfg ANYTHING?" theres ALOT of LFG. I like to just kill and grind to see what I get but man I got NOTHING and died so many times because the respawn is FAST. They got the weather going.. LOL yet it snows in places that should never get snow. The artist did a beautiful job in some places. Oh and I have NEVER seen so many gold spammers in a mmo. In 1h of play you get like 10-20 in the chat selling gold sometimes less. And yet some of the OLD bugs are still there 1y later. Can it be saved? SOE has it .. I really dont think so. I hope it can.
well honestly theres no more grind in vanguard than any other mmo , there called time sinks and there in every mmo in one form or another ,But i agree with you about the drops they suck big time and sony is revamping there loot tables , but than again i dont really use many drops or even sell them on the broker i make my own stuff with my main and a few alts and gold i make so much with my crafters and harvesting that i have to spread it around my alts cause my main is capped under what i have lol
The respawn is fast in some places forsure but really how tough is it to out think the AI , i never have a problem with it myself dont stand and fight where you just finished killing something for one thing and fight from the outside edge of mobs and pull or kite them to a clear spot how tough is it
What if Sony pumped some more cash into this game, hired back many of the Sigil Dev's with Jeff and Brad at the helm, then had Smed, Brad and Jeff show up for a big press conference at some gamers convention, maybe with William Shatner present for an advertisting/celebrity boost. Do you think it would work? Would Vanguard be successful? (Or would people just start associating Vanguard with William Shatner? "What's your game, Dog?)
The more I think about what you wrote the more I realize that SOE had that very opportunity to do that back in January and opted not to in favor of launching to net some revenue.
Comments
Alas, I fear this is true.
I have paid and hope so long, but I see the end of this road. It already has entered SWG-mode now: no expansions but small new "chapters" with mini changes here and there, all coming few and sparse. #
VG is broken in WAY more ways than merely performance and bugs, its totally incoherent, never knew what kind of game it wanted to be, and most of all totally lacks "soul". Its a bit like a lavalamp. Its cool to look at when you see it for the first time, but soon you realize there is little else inside that is relly "alive".
I bemoan this, but all we heard from this recent developer revelation shows it. They hastily stiichted the game in one year together and Smed, when he had bought the game was shocked what trash he had gotten. So its post-NGE SWG mode now all over again. Its like a ghost in a spooky castle, who just doesnt know he is already dead.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Your opinion, my opinion it was based on hardcore rule set. Sure, it could be said it was watered down but it was still hardcore by comparison. Problem with making it more playable is, the game was based on hardcore bs so you can't sell the same old "stuff" in a different box. I think they should just make the bloody game insane hardcore, hell put permadeath in it. Why not, it's not going to compete with the newer games coming out so target a small nicht market.
It's not just my opinion. It's the general consensus that the game performed poorly. Fundamentally it failed, so whether or not it was hardcore becomes incidental. Had they released a game at launch that was not so buggy and performed smoothly, then we could test your assumptions.
I'm not sure if you are into research as I am but I'd love to see the consensus data. How was it carried out? what method did they use? I certainly hope you are not just referring to the general consensus with your friends.
Uh, looking at porn on your computer is not research.
Anyway, the context of these boards does not require that I do research to form an opinion. You are basically trying to impose upon me your professional constraints of the word 'consensus' .
Consensus as I was using it just means generally agreed upon. It is generally agreed upon that a turd stinks. I don't need data to validate or invalidate that opinion. Perhaps you could conduct a study though and publish your results here.
I think a well planned relaunch or "a marketing stunt" from SOE would increase the number of players. More players create more "life" in the world and in the cities. More players makes it easier to get groups and improves the gameplay in a heavily group oriented game. More players make it easier for SOE to invest in further development. And so on...
So what defines a "perfect" mmo? 9.5 million subscribers? I don't think so...from a financial view, yes of course it that is an success, but not necessarily seen from the players perspective. More interesting is, how many players do SOE need to continue blowing life into Vanguard? They are still working hard to improve the game, so at least they must see a potential. And; since I really enjoy the game, that's more than enough for me as a player to see a potential.
So let's assume SOE makes the double number of subscribers during 2008. Maybe that will give an acceptable population on the exisiting servers, maybe that is enough to finance an acceptable grade of development on VG in the future? That would at least make Telon a future place to be for me. I'd just as well tag along with 150K+- more or less mature, more or less pleased subscribers in a non-mainstream mmo I like as playing yet another multi-million subs game (whatever ambitions AoC/WAR/insert mmo have).
The general improvements in performance etc in VG since launch are massive, and there are still updates soon to come adressing a lot of the existing bugs and problems. I 'm sure SOE doesn't put this effort into VG to directly compete with the huge titles coming up in 2008. VG offers something different. VG aims at another audience. I think SOE see that there are enough potential customers looking for exactly what a "polished" VG has to offer - to make it; from their financial perspective; worth what it takes.
If you do things right, you can start a pizza store on the corner and make an acceptable income of it; you don't necessarily have to "compete" with Pizza Hut.
Kinda like re-pooping a turd. But I guess if you continue to put up with the BS shoveled by Sigil and SOE you're used to eating shit.
Mind I'm not saying WoW isnt good in some respects. But honestly, I have no idea how they got 9.5 Mio people do their super boring raidgrind endgame, and how people can keep up with these awful overly colorful comic style graphics is beyond me as well.
Theres IMHO really no need to copy any of that.
I have to say that I simply see no alternative to Vanguard in the near future. Its still closest to what I really want to play.If the problem with Vanguard was just performance then more people would be hearing the rumours of how the game is "fixed" and be coming back. The problem is there was far more wrong with Vanguard than just the bugs. The game is a boring grindfest from start to finish with no real improvements from previous released MMO's. The world is bland and empty, there's no story to the world and nothing going on. There is a little background information hidden away in diplomacy but nothing actively happening. There's no hook to the game and nothing to make your character feel like real person in a real world. If you like the levelling treadmill they have that in spades with 3 spheres to work on and some minor fluff you can grind to achieve like boats, houses, and the special mounts, but no real innovative gameplay.
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
There is a such thing as having one too many problems, you know? I'm certain for every negative aspect Vanguard has, at least one MMO out there suffers from the same negative aspect as well, and its subs are reflected accordingly.Vanguard though has enough negative aspects to sink it into the hole that its in now.
So really, everytime someone brings up an issue they dislike about Vanguard, the grounds aren't really leveled when a random MMO is mentioned as suffering the same issue. The amount and severity of issues are different; problems aren't much of problems when singled out, but when they compound...you have Vanguard.
That said, I agree with caldis. Performance problems were merely "one" barrier Vanguard had when it came to a player figuring out whether or not they'll play the game. Even if the game began running 100 FPS for everyone that tried it today, there's still the whole "is this game fun?" question everyone has to ask.
oh yes vanguard is so much more of a grind than any other mmo lol , like none of us has ever played another mmo here
There is a such thing as having one too many problems, you know? I'm certain for every negative aspect Vanguard has, at least one MMO out there suffers from the same negative aspect as well, and its subs are reflected accordingly.Vanguard though has enough negative aspects to sink it into the hole that its in now.
So really, everytime someone brings up an issue they dislike about Vanguard, the grounds aren't really leveled when a random MMO is mentioned as suffering the same issue. The amount and severity of issues are different; problems aren't much of problems when singled out, but when they compound...you have Vanguard.
That said, I agree with caldis. Performance problems were merely "one" barrier Vanguard had when it came to a player figuring out whether or not they'll play the game. Even if the game began running 100 FPS for everyone that tried it today, there's still the whole "is this game fun?" question everyone has to ask.
well for me and most people in my guild preformance isnt and never has been a barrier , now every game ive played i had to stuggle with what i liked and didnt like about the game For us vanguards is awesome where a family and friends guild thats been around since the pen and paper days. We have our own custom ui for the game we have plenty of fun playing vanguard
The question i would ask is why ive never ever seen you or caldis post one thing positive about vanguard which i think is kinda strange myself Theres lots of games i dont like and wont ever pay another cent to play but theres not one i cant atleast say ya it had its good and bad points
You didnt find the game fun and cladis didnt find the game fun , fine by me but theres lots of people that do . who cares about subs theres more than enough people on my server for us to stay right here . Lifes to short friend if you dont find the game fun move on go find one you do like
Well I went back and tried it while waiting for AOC or something. It does still look very nice, my fps were in the 25-40s everything cranked at 1920. The poster a few posts up is right.. GRIND.. I leveled twice (already had a toon from the past) just grinding and got about 6 bones. Man NO loot at all. The respawn in most places is awful. You know you kill one the next (moving into the camp) then the next and poof there all back. The chat is active lol but the last thing I saw was "lvl 49 lfg ANYTHING?" theres ALOT of LFG. I like to just kill and grind to see what I get but man I got NOTHING and died so many times because the respawn is FAST. They got the weather going.. LOL yet it snows in places that should never get snow. The artist did a beautiful job in some places. Oh and I have NEVER seen so many gold spammers in a mmo. In 1h of play you get like 10-20 in the chat selling gold sometimes less. And yet some of the OLD bugs are still there 1y later.
Can it be saved? SOE has it .. I really dont think so. I hope it can.
I've posted positive comments before and if you want them again here they are. The diplomacy starting lines are great especially for a few races like the Kurasha and the Dark Elves The graphics and city designs were pretty amazing in places. Bordinars Cleft is really cool, Leth Nurae, Caial Brae, Khal, Ahgram, all interesting designs. The classes are well done.
The sad thing is there are good things in the game, and they hint at how good the game could be, instead you get the feeling of how unfinished and below what they had intended the rushed release forced this game to become.
I've been playing for the past two months and if it wasn't for another game that I've been following for quite some time I'd continue.
It's a good game and the community (on Seradon at least) are a very decent bunch of people.
Vanguard is now on the back burner for me (just canceled, but not because I was dissatisfied, I had prior commitments), but should I be let down by my next game I'll definitely return.
A relaunch may generate more subs for sure, but the idea of the 'Trial Isle' etc. is a bad move imo although it's rumored this may not be implemented.
well honestly theres no more grind in vanguard than any other mmo , there called time sinks and there in every mmo in one form or another ,But i agree with you about the drops they suck big time and sony is revamping there loot tables , but than again i dont really use many drops or even sell them on the broker i make my own stuff with my main and a few alts and gold i make so much with my crafters and harvesting that i have to spread it around my alts cause my main is capped under what i have lol
The respawn is fast in some places forsure but really how tough is it to out think the AI , i never have a problem with it myself dont stand and fight where you just finished killing something for one thing and fight from the outside edge of mobs and pull or kite them to a clear spot how tough is it
If I wanted a game where you can level nicely with a grindfest of killing mobs without a quest, I wouldnt have to leave Lineage 2 behind, like, ever.
The more I think about what you wrote the more I realize that SOE had that very opportunity to do that back in January and opted not to in favor of launching to net some revenue.