Okay from launch but when LoTR was in the works it was not going to have pvp just like DDO. They are both made by the same guy and both were going to be pve games. DDO came out first and pretty much took a straight nosedive so they put in moster play in LoTR. For the longest time the people at LoTR said pvp does not fit into their game until they saw what happened with DDO, they changed their minds pretty quick. The funny thing about that is I argued this same thing with all the LoTR fanbois before the release. They said that LoTR was going to be huge and they wouldnt need a good pvp system to do so. It was funny to see them put in that MP stuff right before release. They even had a post on their forums that said something along the lines of no pvp stop asking sticky posted at the top and you couldnt make topics about it.
True, I remember all of that. I was in beta for about 8 months before launch. I thought the MP idea was pretty good but it was to limited. I really didn't like the idea that it was contained to such a small battle area. They should have made certain areas "contested" or something rather then locking it into a small generic battleground.
DDO had a lot of other issues at launch aside from the lack of PvP.....to say the least lol
I guess you can look at it this way also, Turbine learned that PvP is in fact an important part of a game and reacted to that. Dunno, I'm no dev...
Based on what is successful and what is not, IMHO, it just a plain old bad idea not to have some sort of PvP mechanic in there. In fact no strict PvE game really has any sort of longevity. The players burn through dev created content within hours or days of its release. Content that takes months to create.
Yeah I remeber all of that because I really wanted to play LoTR but without any kind of real pvp system I just couldnt do it. Your right my guild will burn threw content like you would not believe. The only real thing that keeps my guild going is rvr/pvp but we are old school players from UO, DAOC, SWG, L2 and GW. As games move on and more towards pvp/rvr they just get better and better. I think more and more guilds/players are moving in that direction and the MMORPG market shows that as well IMHO.
I think people will dislike anything done badly, but since PvE actually levels your character its worth the effort. PvP is normally reserved for the few hardcore players that dedicate their character and item selections to it. I personally would love to pvp, but who has ever done it right? It always degenerates into a few dominant classes, twinked to the hilt when possible, ganking, griefing or camping those that pick their character based on being an effective teammate or solo artist (PvE). There's nothing more frustrating in a game than leveling your char to max just to learn there are inherent strategies certain classes can use to pwn you which make you look (and feel) like a feeb while they're running them.This all comes down to bad game design. Reducing pvp and pve to 1 or 2 prescripted strategies is what I think turns 1 side off to the other. PvPers see PvEers as taking on mindless mobs waiting to die that you just take down using steps 1, 2 and 3, then rinse & repeat. PvEers see even non ganking PvPers using equipment stats and 1 or 2 special skills in conjunction with a few standard button mashing scripts to "prove" one is better than the other in a fight that often could've takin place in a phone booth. Neither respects the other because both ways of gaming are basically corny and they know it, but value they're style as being more worthwhile for what they gain from it, whether it be xp or that they have vanquished a worthy opponent. Though I'm not sure the gaming public really wants what so many seem to be clamoring for, and all it implies, there's got to be something better than this.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
Yeah I agree a lot of games have trouble with balance but not all games. I think the basics behind L2 pvp was the way to go (the pve system/grind was unreal). Large scale pvp with some kind of goal like trying for a castle or sack of a city whatever it may be. The large scale pvp takes away the stress of the balance system and lets each class shine at what it was designed to do. I think devs know this and thats why your seeing more focus on guilds, sieges, the larger picture in general. They have to get away from the old way of pvp where you line up agianst class X and see who is "best" and they know that. It looks like the games set to come out know this for sure the WAR RvR system set to release and AoC with its sieges and clan warfare. Should be fun to watch and play to see what system wins the hearts of the players.
The game must be develop for PvP usage, not something they just trow in for the sake. I'm a casual gamer, I enjoy PvP but many game doesn't have a good PvP system. Last time I played and have a blast with it was in SWG and DAoC.
EQ2, WoW is an example for PvP I don't like. And random korean PvP games. Or shall I say grindfest.
Age of Conan, Warhammer and Darkfall is a few games I think PvP will be fun in.
______________________________ The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess. And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic' and send them to the Special Olympus.
I think you have to distinguish between different kinds of PvP.
"Casual" PvP is quite popular, I think, much more than 20%. By "casual", I mean PvP that is voluntary, non-intrusive into other gameplay, and largely inconsequential (ie, no significant repair costs or lost exp/loot, etc.). People like that because it's a break from their grinding/questing/ratting, what have you.
"Medium PvP" is less popular, but still somewhat popular. By this category I mean games like WoW's PvP servers where you can be freely ganked, so it it is not voluntary and it can be intrusive, but it isn't otherwise "costly" -- there is no looting, there is no real death penalty, and PvP-related repair costs are very low. So more people find this appealing than true, hardcore PvP.
"Harcore PvP" is the least popular -- by this I mean not only free ganking, but ganking with consequences -- significant exp or item loss. EVE is an example of this: get ganked, lose 500m ISK in 20 seconds. Some people find this exciting (I did when I played EVE, for example), but to be honest most people don't like the idea that 20 hours they have invested in a game can be taken away in 20 seconds. FFA looting PvP is the kind of PvP that the hardcore PvP crowd prefers, but as a playstyle it doesn't have a lot of popular support compared to more moderate forms of PvP.
======
Having said all of that, I think that there are structural issues in MMOs that prevent many of them from being the most appealing PvP environments. Any MMO that features a leveling/advancement system combined with PvP is going to feature ganking as well. And, to be honest, most people don't find getting ganked by a player 30+ levels ahead of them to be any fun at all. Unless you restrict who can be ganked (like EQ2 did -- and of course then the hardcore crowd immediately shouts that this is not "true PvP"), or have some kind of significantly unattractive ganking penalty (another thing that hardcore PvPers would hate) lowbie characters will generally be repeatedly ganked -- just because they can and there is a certain % of players who like to gank lowbies more than anything else. In a non-MMO setting like an FPS, for example, there isn't ganking because there isn't a level disparity between the players. Many MMOs feature level and gear disparities, and to be honest many people don't find PvPing in that environment to be very fun or rewarding.
Ironically I think that the "MMO" which did PvPing the best was a non-MMO: Guild Wars. It works well in GW because there isn't a real level disparity, there isn't *any* gear disparity, and the PvP is "for fun only", the same as it is in non-MMO PvP-oriented games. WoW has tried something similar in the arena system, but although that system can control for level, it can't control for gear disparities (and character performance in WoW is 90% based on gear), and the settings are too small to allow for very many different kinds of combinations as can be done in GW: the arena has settled into a few "uber" team combos on a min/max basis like everything else in WoW has done since the beginning.
So that's the challenge really. Consequence-laden PvP is just not popular with the masses of gamers. Consequence-free PvP can be popular, but can get very tiresome unless the players are given something to work towards, or have some kind of impact on the game world. This is where Conan and WAR come into the picture. If they can capitalize on the need for that kind of PvP (ie, non-FFA, consequence light to the player yet meaningful to the game world), they could get a lot of people interested in their PvP.
I started playing MMOS when DAoC was realeased, and so im a PvP fan and cannot understand why are there so many pple who like PvE in mmos. Imo PvE is boring as hell and have tryed LOtRO which destroyed PvP and WoW whose PvP wasnt too bad although after some hours it began to be repetitive as PvEd instances. I´d like to hear some reasons why pple like PvE and dislike PvP. Thanks for reading.
While PVE monsters have predictable behavior, PVE tends to have more socialization and close cooperation among other players. In other words, it builds community.
While PVP can give you that rush of excitement, this sort of gameplay quickly becomes tedious and repetitive, much like running around in the backyard and playing tag. Just like with FPS games, interest is high at first, then wanes quickly.
One need only look at WOW's medium-to-heavily populated PVE servers to its mostly low-populated PVP servers to understand the briefer level of interest that PVP holds for most folks.
Agreed!
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring.
My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring. My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring. My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
You miss the point Kulthos.....Most people HATE absolutely HATE WoW pvp which is why they're here saying what they say and voting how they vote. The idea you just pvp for gear and not something of substance like your realm or land or to protect your home is just boring...pvping for gear is a grind and boring *repeats herself*
WoW lovers tend not to leave the WoW forums or the game to come here and argue with us very often.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring. My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
You miss the point Kulthos.....Most people HATE absolutely HATE WoW pvp which is why they're here saying what they say and voting how they vote. The idea you just pvp for gear and not something of substance like your realm or land or to protect your home is just boring...pvping for gear is a grind and boring *repeats herself*
WoW lovers tend not to leave the WoW forums or the game to come here and argue with us very often.
I'm not a WoW lover, but I stand 100% behind their PvP. It was the only reason I played that game as long as I did, and the only reason I've ever considered going back. It was fast, fluid and tactical. The experience rewarded you...and now rewards you based on how well you perform. I find that to be very fun. No other game, and I have played an insane amount, has even come close to that experience for me. Not even the "PvP MMOS" that are out there. They may have gotten certain things better...but they all suffer when I compare the fun of combat to WoW.
I'd love having more reasons to PvP. I would love sieges and massive wars. I'd love to fight to defend my land (which is one thing I sorely miss from old WoW...the world PvP made me smile everyday I played it). But the fact for me is that the games which hope to offer this always fail to deliver on smooth and simple combat. You heard me, SIMPLE. Combat which is too complex takes away from the tactical nature of deciding what to do with you moves....you are far too involved in how to use them at all.
There ya go, a wow pvp lover in here to discuss it with ya! Also, 20% isn't too bad for a poll. Most people really don't vote on those things, and your average forum junkie is a PvE player in general. They like social encounters, obviously, so they seek them out in both their games and their life outside them. PvP players are generally more competitive and less social. They seek out more competition, less talk.
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring. My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
lol "Between MMO's" ... I know that feeling, im um... between men.. and my next man definitetly also needs to be of some quality!!
As for PvP, here not thinking of my comments above, but of MMO's.. I think that PvP needs to have those factors Immersion and Inclusion in mind, to be successful.
Comments
Well I was going to write back but Gurkz pretty much said it all. I guss some people really dont adjust to change well
DDO had a lot of other issues at launch aside from the lack of PvP.....to say the least lol
I guess you can look at it this way also, Turbine learned that PvP is in fact an important part of a game and reacted to that. Dunno, I'm no dev...
Based on what is successful and what is not, IMHO, it just a plain old bad idea not to have some sort of PvP mechanic in there. In fact no strict PvE game really has any sort of longevity. The players burn through dev created content within hours or days of its release. Content that takes months to create.
Yeah I remeber all of that because I really wanted to play LoTR but without any kind of real pvp system I just couldnt do it. Your right my guild will burn threw content like you would not believe. The only real thing that keeps my guild going is rvr/pvp but we are old school players from UO, DAOC, SWG, L2 and GW. As games move on and more towards pvp/rvr they just get better and better. I think more and more guilds/players are moving in that direction and the MMORPG market shows that as well IMHO.
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
I think people will dislike anything done badly, but since PvE actually levels your character its worth the effort. PvP is normally reserved for the few hardcore players that dedicate their character and item selections to it. I personally would love to pvp, but who has ever done it right? It always degenerates into a few dominant classes, twinked to the hilt when possible, ganking, griefing or camping those that pick their character based on being an effective teammate or solo artist (PvE). There's nothing more frustrating in a game than leveling your char to max just to learn there are inherent strategies certain classes can use to pwn you which make you look (and feel) like a feeb while they're running them.This all comes down to bad game design. Reducing pvp and pve to 1 or 2 prescripted strategies is what I think turns 1 side off to the other. PvPers see PvEers as taking on mindless mobs waiting to die that you just take down using steps 1, 2 and 3, then rinse & repeat. PvEers see even non ganking PvPers using equipment stats and 1 or 2 special skills in conjunction with a few standard button mashing scripts to "prove" one is better than the other in a fight that often could've takin place in a phone booth. Neither respects the other because both ways of gaming are basically corny and they know it, but value they're style as being more worthwhile for what they gain from it, whether it be xp or that they have vanquished a worthy opponent. Though I'm not sure the gaming public really wants what so many seem to be clamoring for, and all it implies, there's got to be something better than this.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
Yeah I agree a lot of games have trouble with balance but not all games. I think the basics behind L2 pvp was the way to go (the pve system/grind was unreal). Large scale pvp with some kind of goal like trying for a castle or sack of a city whatever it may be. The large scale pvp takes away the stress of the balance system and lets each class shine at what it was designed to do. I think devs know this and thats why your seeing more focus on guilds, sieges, the larger picture in general. They have to get away from the old way of pvp where you line up agianst class X and see who is "best" and they know that. It looks like the games set to come out know this for sure the WAR RvR system set to release and AoC with its sieges and clan warfare. Should be fun to watch and play to see what system wins the hearts of the players.
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
The game must be develop for PvP usage, not something they just trow in for the sake. I'm a casual gamer, I enjoy PvP but many game doesn't have a good PvP system. Last time I played and have a blast with it was in SWG and DAoC.
EQ2, WoW is an example for PvP I don't like. And random korean PvP games. Or shall I say grindfest.
Age of Conan, Warhammer and Darkfall is a few games I think PvP will be fun in.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
I think you have to distinguish between different kinds of PvP.
"Casual" PvP is quite popular, I think, much more than 20%. By "casual", I mean PvP that is voluntary, non-intrusive into other gameplay, and largely inconsequential (ie, no significant repair costs or lost exp/loot, etc.). People like that because it's a break from their grinding/questing/ratting, what have you.
"Medium PvP" is less popular, but still somewhat popular. By this category I mean games like WoW's PvP servers where you can be freely ganked, so it it is not voluntary and it can be intrusive, but it isn't otherwise "costly" -- there is no looting, there is no real death penalty, and PvP-related repair costs are very low. So more people find this appealing than true, hardcore PvP.
"Harcore PvP" is the least popular -- by this I mean not only free ganking, but ganking with consequences -- significant exp or item loss. EVE is an example of this: get ganked, lose 500m ISK in 20 seconds. Some people find this exciting (I did when I played EVE, for example), but to be honest most people don't like the idea that 20 hours they have invested in a game can be taken away in 20 seconds. FFA looting PvP is the kind of PvP that the hardcore PvP crowd prefers, but as a playstyle it doesn't have a lot of popular support compared to more moderate forms of PvP.
======
Having said all of that, I think that there are structural issues in MMOs that prevent many of them from being the most appealing PvP environments. Any MMO that features a leveling/advancement system combined with PvP is going to feature ganking as well. And, to be honest, most people don't find getting ganked by a player 30+ levels ahead of them to be any fun at all. Unless you restrict who can be ganked (like EQ2 did -- and of course then the hardcore crowd immediately shouts that this is not "true PvP"), or have some kind of significantly unattractive ganking penalty (another thing that hardcore PvPers would hate) lowbie characters will generally be repeatedly ganked -- just because they can and there is a certain % of players who like to gank lowbies more than anything else. In a non-MMO setting like an FPS, for example, there isn't ganking because there isn't a level disparity between the players. Many MMOs feature level and gear disparities, and to be honest many people don't find PvPing in that environment to be very fun or rewarding.
Ironically I think that the "MMO" which did PvPing the best was a non-MMO: Guild Wars. It works well in GW because there isn't a real level disparity, there isn't *any* gear disparity, and the PvP is "for fun only", the same as it is in non-MMO PvP-oriented games. WoW has tried something similar in the arena system, but although that system can control for level, it can't control for gear disparities (and character performance in WoW is 90% based on gear), and the settings are too small to allow for very many different kinds of combinations as can be done in GW: the arena has settled into a few "uber" team combos on a min/max basis like everything else in WoW has done since the beginning.
So that's the challenge really. Consequence-laden PvP is just not popular with the masses of gamers. Consequence-free PvP can be popular, but can get very tiresome unless the players are given something to work towards, or have some kind of impact on the game world. This is where Conan and WAR come into the picture. If they can capitalize on the need for that kind of PvP (ie, non-FFA, consequence light to the player yet meaningful to the game world), they could get a lot of people interested in their PvP.
While PVE monsters have predictable behavior, PVE tends to have more socialization and close cooperation among other players. In other words, it builds community.
While PVP can give you that rush of excitement, this sort of gameplay quickly becomes tedious and repetitive, much like running around in the backyard and playing tag. Just like with FPS games, interest is high at first, then wanes quickly.
One need only look at WOW's medium-to-heavily populated PVE servers to its mostly low-populated PVP servers to understand the briefer level of interest that PVP holds for most folks.
Agreed!All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
OK this IS kind of confusing... when you look at the poll results, there is NO doubt. PvP 20%... when you look at the post, its more like 60%. If you look at the games that exists, none of them got the PvP right and most of all the absolutet majority thinks that PvP in Wow is downright boring.
My conclusion can only be that people find the idea of pvp inticing and hope that some future game will bring it in a more fun way, just not focus too much on it.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
You miss the point Kulthos.....Most people HATE absolutely HATE WoW pvp which is why they're here saying what they say and voting how they vote. The idea you just pvp for gear and not something of substance like your realm or land or to protect your home is just boring...pvping for gear is a grind and boring *repeats herself*WoW lovers tend not to leave the WoW forums or the game to come here and argue with us very often.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
You miss the point Kulthos.....Most people HATE absolutely HATE WoW pvp which is why they're here saying what they say and voting how they vote. The idea you just pvp for gear and not something of substance like your realm or land or to protect your home is just boring...pvping for gear is a grind and boring *repeats herself*WoW lovers tend not to leave the WoW forums or the game to come here and argue with us very often.
I'm not a WoW lover, but I stand 100% behind their PvP. It was the only reason I played that game as long as I did, and the only reason I've ever considered going back. It was fast, fluid and tactical. The experience rewarded you...and now rewards you based on how well you perform. I find that to be very fun. No other game, and I have played an insane amount, has even come close to that experience for me. Not even the "PvP MMOS" that are out there. They may have gotten certain things better...but they all suffer when I compare the fun of combat to WoW.
I'd love having more reasons to PvP. I would love sieges and massive wars. I'd love to fight to defend my land (which is one thing I sorely miss from old WoW...the world PvP made me smile everyday I played it). But the fact for me is that the games which hope to offer this always fail to deliver on smooth and simple combat. You heard me, SIMPLE. Combat which is too complex takes away from the tactical nature of deciding what to do with you moves....you are far too involved in how to use them at all.
There ya go, a wow pvp lover in here to discuss it with ya! Also, 20% isn't too bad for a poll. Most people really don't vote on those things, and your average forum junkie is a PvE player in general. They like social encounters, obviously, so they seek them out in both their games and their life outside them. PvP players are generally more competitive and less social. They seek out more competition, less talk.
I'm just a freak.
I think you are seeing sampling errors on display. People who like PvP apparently spend more time on forums. I am between MMO's right now, so I am doing research on new ones which gives me time to post. My wife, who loves WoW battlegrounds, spends her time killing hordies and not positing anywhere.
lol "Between MMO's" ... I know that feeling, im um... between men.. and my next man definitetly also needs to be of some quality!!As for PvP, here not thinking of my comments above, but of MMO's.. I think that PvP needs to have those factors Immersion and Inclusion in mind, to be successful.