EVE and FFXI. Either is harder than the other but in different aspects.
Agreed. L2 is up there as well in both PvE grind and PvP gameplay, but the past few years it's been getting a lot more casual friendly in both regards.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Well said. Think alot of people misunderstand the meaning of hardcore here.. Example of a few hardcore mmo's are : Everquest 1 , Anarchy Online and Asherons Call as mentioned above. Thats a few complex oldskool mmo's that takes time to master, and you wont find alot of "WTF ROFL PWN kidz" begging for gold, but more mature players.
Actually, 'hardcore' is just a degree of playstyle and not any one playstyle, but for the sake of discussion I think most people here are all on the same page - posting games which are designed around content for people that like that more extreme degree of their particular playstyle.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Well said. Think alot of people misunderstand the meaning of hardcore here.. Example of a few hardcore mmo's are : Everquest 1 , Anarchy Online and Asherons Call as mentioned above. Thats a few complex oldskool mmo's that takes time to master, and you wont find alot of "WTF ROFL PWN kidz" begging for gold, but more mature players.
Everquest used to be hardcore. It is quite easy now.
The term hardcore is not even really well defined especially in the MMORPG community. Hardcore is more of an expression and often exaggeration that can be directed to just about anything.
Even the OP openly admit there are different types of hardcore, which give me a very hard time to form any type of answer.
It has to be Darkfall Online.. No explanation needed.
Full loot at death, extreme penalties for killing players unwanted, one character per server, able to max out all skills, skill decay, item decay when used, they will even break if you repair too much, a combat simulator, and the hardest damn game to aim in, and you have to click and drag items to your pack, slowly.. Sea battles, boat to land sieges, boat to boat, your boat can sink (you will lose it) And you die with your boat when ti does sink.. You can tare down cities with boats, and there is mounted combat (you can kill a player mount while a player is riding them.)
It does not get more hardcore than that.. Although Darkfall has bad performance, horrible support, horrible community, and bad animations(not graphics), and a huge empty world with no life. This was the turn-off.. Other than that, the most hardcore game I ever played.
Eve CAN be difficult, but also note that to get to max level in Eve requires only that you log on 30 seconds a day to change which skill your subconscious is training. You can get to max level witout ever leaving your initial spawn point in the space station. If you want gear and riches; that's more work.
L2 sounds like it's very tough. I was going to mention Everquest as the most hardcore (even though leveling is MUCH easier nowadays).
Could be wrong but I do not think every skillbook is available in every station, and without money to buy them you are stuck. True you can buy a sub for cash and sell it as plex for money but there are risks there too. I admit the skilling up is static but that is not the essence of the game. Going out there and mining without being ripped off, or going out there and ripping off miners without dying, those are thigns that are the essence of EVE - and just the minor ones. Where else can you get some of the drama that has occured in EVE? It is very hardcore, which is why I only play it like 3-4 months at a time, then I get too competitve in real life.
The term hardcore is not even really well defined especially in the MMORPG community. Hardcore is more of an expression and often exaggeration that can be directed to just about anything.
Even the OP openly admit there are different types of hardcore, which give me a very hard time to form any type of answer.
Just can't give an informed answer this way.
Hardcore is an opinion. To some people Maple Story might be hardcore. To me hardcore involves having a sense of paranoia whenever other players are around. Hardcore means if you are not careful all your hardwork resulted in a benefit for someone else and you are dead. That's hardcore to me. An old game called Shadowbane was my favorite hardcore game. When we had a group out farming we had to have another group with us to fight off the other players who wanted our loot.
Eve CAN be difficult, but also note that to get to max level in Eve requires only that you log on 30 seconds a day to change which skill your subconscious is training. You can get to max level witout ever leaving your initial spawn point in the space station. If you want gear and riches; that's more work.
L2 sounds like it's very tough. I was going to mention Everquest as the most hardcore (even though leveling is MUCH easier nowadays).
How do you buy all the skills without leaving the station? Furthermore unless you actually pvp in the game, with all the skills in the world as a scrub you will still get wiped.
EVE is the most hardcore in terms of what you can lose and all the scamming and machinations going on. Darkfall is the most hardcore in terms of wtfpwning people all the time and in your face combat (oh and hardcore grind lol).
L2, not sure never played it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Max lvl is lvl 85/80/80/80 (mainclass/sub/sub/sub) soon to be changed to (85/85/85/85) (mainclass might raise to 87 soon)
If you die in L2 this is what`s gonna happen:
exp loss : at lvl 75 and below you lose 4% of your current lvl / at 76 -78 its 2,5-2% / lvl 79 - 80 1% / above 80 - 0,8-0,6%
While being "white" - not in pvp involved : you lose exp (your opponent turns chaotic)
while being "purple" - in pvp involved : you lose exp
while being "red" (chaotic) & more then 5 previous Player Kills: you lose exp, you might drop gear, anyone can kill you without receiving penalty
To make you aware of the exp loss:
In order to receive 0.01% at lvl 75 you have to kill 1 monster ( 4% = 400 monsters)
To receive 0,01% at lvl 79 you have to kill roughly 8-10 monsters (1% = 800-1000monsters)
to receive 0.01% at lvl 85 ( max lvl) you have to kill roughtly 40 monsters (0,6% = 2400monsters)
(all based on solo hunting - group mobs give more exp but certainly take longer)
With the information above you can also see that it takes years to gain max lvl (taking the huge pvp warfares every evening / weekend which cause exp loss in consideration) - which to my knowledge nobody has ever reached in a legit way.
Max lvl is lvl 85/80/80/80 (mainclass/sub/sub/sub) soon to be changed to (85/85/85/85) (mainclass might raise to 87 soon)
If you die in L2 this is what`s gonna happen:
exp loss : at lvl 75 and below you lose 4% of your current lvl / at 76 -78 its 2,5-2% / lvl 79 - 80 1% / above 80 - 0,8-0,6%
While being "white" - not in pvp involved : you lose exp (your opponent turns chaotic)
while being "purple" - in pvp involved : you lose exp
while being "red" (chaotic) & more then 5 previous Player Kills: you lose exp, you might drop gear, anyone can kill you without receiving penalty
To make you aware of the exp loss:
In order to receive 0.01% at lvl 75 you have to kill 1 monster ( 4% = 400 monsters)
To receive 0,01% at lvl 79 you have to kill roughly 8-10 monsters (1% = 800-1000monsters)
to receive 0.01% at lvl 85 ( max lvl) you have to kill roughtly 40 monsters (0,6% = 2400monsters)
(all based on solo hunting - group mobs give more exp but certainly take longer)
With the information above you can also see that it takes years to gain max lvl (taking the huge pvp warfares every evening / weekend which cause exp loss in consideration) - which to my knowledge nobody has ever reached in a legit way.
went to try the free 14 day trial(no credit card needed) only to find that the download sites require a credit card - well not fileplanet but it didn't work for me. Sounds interesting but I am not giving my info unless I intend to buy and I am not buying unless I know I will like the game.
went to try the free 14 day trial(no credit card needed) only to find that the download sites require a credit card - well not fileplanet but it didn't work for me. Sounds interesting but I am not giving my info unless I intend to buy and I am not buying unless I know I will like the game.
Good thing everyone doesn't think like this - there'd be no games or movies and probably no books.
Why you would think Vanguard was hardcore I don't know.
The leveling (sub-50) is cake.
I mean I almost never max level a character (even in games I play for 3-4 years) but I did so in months and did nearly all the raids with relative ease in VG (got 50 in 5ish months of non-hardcore casual playing).
This game will cost you money. Not just a little either. To actually play the game and equip yourself and buy a decent gun and armor and stuff will cost you like $40 I think. Then fighting your armor will wear out anf require repairs (more real money) and your gun will run out of ammo (more real money). If you are lucky and good, you'll kill a few mobs and maybe get about $1.00 worth of crap off of those mobs.
But just think, if you skill up, it'll prolly only cost you about $10,000 or more to get halfway skilled when you can kill some of the more deadly mobs and perhaps find $20 worth of loot per kill. LOL.
The sad thing is that I am really not exaggerating that much at all.
And THAT is true hardcore to invest in a game like that. It IS fun, I'll admit that. But it is BY FAR the most hardcore game I've ever played.
- Zaxx
that description of Entropia Universe doesnt fit in a hardcore game, it perfectly fit in a piece of crap of a game..... lol i compare this game with real life and real life is more fun... "omg i was killing mobs in this game and ran out of ammo, gotta buy more with real money" ...... its more fun in real life to go bear hunting with a rifle and the ammo will worth your money....
pay money to play the game, and also pay extra money to get the things you need to play? that company is a freakin thieve, plus this game looks HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This game will cost you money. Not just a little either. To actually play the game and equip yourself and buy a decent gun and armor and stuff will cost you like $40 I think. Then fighting your armor will wear out anf require repairs (more real money) and your gun will run out of ammo (more real money). If you are lucky and good, you'll kill a few mobs and maybe get about $1.00 worth of crap off of those mobs.
But just think, if you skill up, it'll prolly only cost you about $10,000 or more to get halfway skilled when you can kill some of the more deadly mobs and perhaps find $20 worth of loot per kill. LOL.
The sad thing is that I am really not exaggerating that much at all.
And THAT is true hardcore to invest in a game like that. It IS fun, I'll admit that. But it is BY FAR the most hardcore game I've ever played.
- Zaxx
that description of Entropia Universe doesnt fit in a hardcore game, it perfectly fit in a piece of crap of a game..... lol i compare this game with real life and real life is more fun... "omg i was killing mobs in this game and ran out of ammo, gotta buy more with real money" ...... its more fun in real life to go bear hunting with a rifle and the ammo will worth your money....
pay money to play the game, and also pay extra money to get the things you need to play? that company is a freakin thieve, plus this game looks HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I tend to agree with your assesment of that game, lol.
went to try the free 14 day trial(no credit card needed) only to find that the download sites require a credit card - well not fileplanet but it didn't work for me. Sounds interesting but I am not giving my info unless I intend to buy and I am not buying unless I know I will like the game.
Good thing everyone doesn't think like this - there'd be no games or movies and probably no books.
Lineage 2 will kick your as* backwards and forwards...twice...then again for fun. Its made by people who hate you and want you to suffer.
Everything is hardcore in L2. F*cking swinging your sword cost money.
LOL.. ya I definitely agree with Torak.
btw.. hes not joking.. swinging your sword does cost money
Well... It used to be the most hardcore. The last few years they have softened it up quite a bit. Not that L2 isn't still a hardcore game but it's only a shadow of what it used to be. I actually miss the old L2 before they added all of the buff drops, 'Helpers' and generally nerfed almost every class to hell (Especially the Healers.) The game today is nothing like it was when I played for 3 straight years from Beta to about Interlude(6th or 7th major expansion). After playing back then the game seems like it's in easy mode now.
Not to hate on Eve, but Eve is potentially the easiest game in the history of games. The *only* thing you need to do to get to max level is to log on for 30 seconds once a day to change which skill your subconscious is training. Your character can get to max level without moving one inch from your initial spawning point (inside a space station). If you want gear and riches; that's more work.
L2 sounds like it's very tough. I was going to mention Everquest as the most hardcore (even though leveling is MUCH easier nowadays).
Um, no. You couldn't get to max 'level' without playing the game. How do you suppose you're going to make the money to buy these skills? They go up significantly in price later on. You don't just magically start with all the skills and just tell them to train. You start with a handful of skills and purchase your next ones, which often have prerequisites that are other skills.
Not only that, but you're thinking in very straight forward and narrow terms - That being only character advancement. You haven't taken into account how hard the game is to even learn. You haven't taken into account the penalties for dying, which can easily set you back several days or more if you aren't prepared. You haven't taken into account game mechanics, which can fall under 'learning'. There are many mechanics that players who are even a year old in the game still don't know how to use to their advantage, and which were discovered mostly by other players over time.
But that's going past your original point - in that you can supposedly train from start to finish sitting in your station doing nothing. Which is simply not true in any way. You would have to play the game in order to gain the finances to advance your character, and in order to best earn finances you will have to better equip and skill yourself. They each need each other to function better.
Don't tell me your idea of playing a game is to not actually play it. My advancement in EVE may happen even while I'm logged off, but when I log on and actually play the game every day, it is very challenging and rewarding. The fact that my character advances while I'm offline is simply to make things slightly easier. It doesn't take away from the fact that it will still take me a long time and effort, and a lot of money to get where I want to go in the game.
Any game that let's you buy your way to the top along with setting and forgetting your skills is not hardcore. Hardcore for me is consuming one's actual playing time and EvE doesn't require that. Also any game trying to define itself as hardcore based on PvP is another huge fail. Since PvP competition can differ greatly from player to player.
For me anyway hardcore is making it through a horrendous grind and that honor for me personally is FFXI. No game in history freakin DE-levels you if you fail and die. That in my book is all I need to give it the hardcore badge.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
For PVP games, eve online , by far. Darkfall might come in close by, BUT I have not played it in a long while.
In EVE... there are many players and corporations who will pry upon you and kill you, pod you, just to boost their Killboard stats... trust me I did it all the time... not blue shoot it, 1 day old noobs included. I have killed so many noob miners and mission runners using high level tactics like RR and aggro flagging abuse to trick noobs into agressing and dieing horribly.
Yes I will admit I have a 50 mil sp player that can fly just about everything amarr except for moms and titans yet most of the corps i was in were wardeck extornitism corps that pick on weaker corps that dont have a good chanch.
Too quote my old corpmates eve blog, "EVE is about one thing and one thing only: survival of the fittest in an open sandbox. In more specific terms, it’s about one person or group doing everything in their power to achieve their desired ends and anything done to achieve that end is not only acceptable, but proof that you are good at EVE. If you have played this game for any significant amount of time and you still cling to some notion of honor or morality about how one should act in game, then you have not progressed past the tutorial. You are a noob." source
Any game that let's you buy your way to the top along with setting and forgetting your skills is not hardcore. Hardcore for me is consuming one's actual playing time and EvE doesn't require that. Also any game trying to define itself as hardcore based on PvP is another huge fail. Since PvP competition can differ greatly from player to player.
For me anyway hardcore is making it through a horrendous grind and that honor for me personally is FFXI. No game in history freakin DE-levels you if you fail and die. That in my book is all I need to give it the hardcore badge.
For you hardcore is only about the grind and thats fair enough it's your opinion, but for most it is a combination of things, mainly associated with risk. A game that takes 3 years to grind to max level is not as 'hardcore' as one in which you can have all of your items taken from you after x years and be left with nothing. It's a game where other players can actively prevent you from achieving your goals and you theirs.
PVP games are more 'hardcore' than pure pve games simply because they add another element into the mix which complicates things. That isn't ofc to say that you cannot have hardcore pve games.
Getting to 'the top' in EVE is not about having umpteen skill points.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Not to hate on Eve, but Eve is potentially the easiest game in the history of games. The *only* thing you need to do to get to max level is to log on for 30 seconds once a day to change which skill your subconscious is training. Your character can get to max level without moving one inch from your initial spawning point (inside a space station). If you want gear and riches; that's more work.
L2 sounds like it's very tough. I was going to mention Everquest as the most hardcore (even though leveling is MUCH easier nowadays).
Um, no. You couldn't get to max 'level' without playing the game. How do you suppose you're going to make the money to buy these skills? They go up significantly in price later on. You don't just magically start with all the skills and just tell them to train. You start with a handful of skills and purchase your next ones, which often have prerequisites that are other skills.
Not only that, but you're thinking in very straight forward and narrow terms - That being only character advancement. You haven't taken into account how hard the game is to even learn. You haven't taken into account the penalties for dying, which can easily set you back several days or more if you aren't prepared. You haven't taken into account game mechanics, which can fall under 'learning'. There are many mechanics that players who are even a year old in the game still don't know how to use to their advantage, and which were discovered mostly by other players over time.
But that's going past your original point - in that you can supposedly train from start to finish sitting in your station doing nothing. Which is simply not true in any way. You would have to play the game in order to gain the finances to advance your character, and in order to best earn finances you will have to better equip and skill yourself. They each need each other to function better.
Don't tell me your idea of playing a game is to not actually play it. My advancement in EVE may happen even while I'm logged off, but when I log on and actually play the game every day, it is very challenging and rewarding. The fact that my character advances while I'm offline is simply to make things slightly easier. It doesn't take away from the fact that it will still take me a long time and effort, and a lot of money to get where I want to go in the game.
While he may have simplified things, his point is still basically solid. The more expensive skills still dont cost all that much. Just a month ago I dumped 100m on an alt and started his skills training. All the advanced learning skills I bought didnt take much out of that cash, and one lucky implant drop paid for it all.
But you still had to undock and do stuff to get that lucky implant drop. Speaking of implants, you'll need to buy some yourself and those +5s aint cheap.
The fundamental point that the OP is missing is that you dont "win" EVE by advancing your character. You "win" it by doing stuff, not increasing a number on your character sheet. Set a goal and achieve it. Hard to do that without undocking...
i agree calling EVE and Darkfall the most hardcore games out there. its more depending on personal experience, which is more hardcore for you. EVE is more complex imho, which is one of many criteria for hardcore, but EVE got a huge (mostly) safe zone called Empire. but dont expect to have endless fun, if you play EVE the safe way forever. in Darkfall you step out of a small town and you are in danger. also for me the skill-by-use system of darkfall is more hardcore as the skill-by-time in EVE.
i could also imagine, that Mortal Online and Worm Online might be as hardcore as EVE and DF, but i just had a very short look at them.
looking to PVE games, its hard to say, what hardcore should mean. in all games since 2003 i am missing the versatility of the classes. it is all now simplified, refined, balanced .... they use the horrible word "Accessability". my EQ1 necromancer could kill stuff with at least 10 different techniques/tactics. and it was neccessary to master them all, if you went out soloing bosses. todays pve-combat system means hack&slay, root 'n shoot and aoe. thats it, no brain needed. so versatility, unrefined encounters and classes which have a meaning and are not balanced to death are part of a hardcore-pve for me. in addition a full blown player-driven economy and a very complex crafting-system is part of hardcore in PVE, too.
Comments
Darkfall is the most hardcore i've played in a while. UO when you could steal peoples house keys was up there.
----ITS A TRAP!!!----
Agreed. L2 is up there as well in both PvE grind and PvP gameplay, but the past few years it's been getting a lot more casual friendly in both regards.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Lineage 2 is the defintion of Hard Core. I cant think if anything easy about that game.
Actually, 'hardcore' is just a degree of playstyle and not any one playstyle, but for the sake of discussion I think most people here are all on the same page - posting games which are designed around content for people that like that more extreme degree of their particular playstyle.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Everquest used to be hardcore. It is quite easy now.
The term hardcore is not even really well defined especially in the MMORPG community. Hardcore is more of an expression and often exaggeration that can be directed to just about anything.
Even the OP openly admit there are different types of hardcore, which give me a very hard time to form any type of answer.
Just can't give an informed answer this way.
It has to be Darkfall Online.. No explanation needed.
Full loot at death, extreme penalties for killing players unwanted, one character per server, able to max out all skills, skill decay, item decay when used, they will even break if you repair too much, a combat simulator, and the hardest damn game to aim in, and you have to click and drag items to your pack, slowly.. Sea battles, boat to land sieges, boat to boat, your boat can sink (you will lose it) And you die with your boat when ti does sink.. You can tare down cities with boats, and there is mounted combat (you can kill a player mount while a player is riding them.)
It does not get more hardcore than that.. Although Darkfall has bad performance, horrible support, horrible community, and bad animations(not graphics), and a huge empty world with no life. This was the turn-off.. Other than that, the most hardcore game I ever played.
Could be wrong but I do not think every skillbook is available in every station, and without money to buy them you are stuck. True you can buy a sub for cash and sell it as plex for money but there are risks there too. I admit the skilling up is static but that is not the essence of the game. Going out there and mining without being ripped off, or going out there and ripping off miners without dying, those are thigns that are the essence of EVE - and just the minor ones. Where else can you get some of the drama that has occured in EVE? It is very hardcore, which is why I only play it like 3-4 months at a time, then I get too competitve in real life.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Hardcore is an opinion. To some people Maple Story might be hardcore. To me hardcore involves having a sense of paranoia whenever other players are around. Hardcore means if you are not careful all your hardwork resulted in a benefit for someone else and you are dead. That's hardcore to me. An old game called Shadowbane was my favorite hardcore game. When we had a group out farming we had to have another group with us to fight off the other players who wanted our loot.
Currently bored with MMO's.
How do you buy all the skills without leaving the station? Furthermore unless you actually pvp in the game, with all the skills in the world as a scrub you will still get wiped.
EVE is the most hardcore in terms of what you can lose and all the scamming and machinations going on. Darkfall is the most hardcore in terms of wtfpwning people all the time and in your face combat (oh and hardcore grind lol).
L2, not sure never played it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Ok a little overview about Lineage 2:
Max lvl is lvl 85/80/80/80 (mainclass/sub/sub/sub) soon to be changed to (85/85/85/85) (mainclass might raise to 87 soon)
If you die in L2 this is what`s gonna happen:
exp loss : at lvl 75 and below you lose 4% of your current lvl / at 76 -78 its 2,5-2% / lvl 79 - 80 1% / above 80 - 0,8-0,6%
While being "white" - not in pvp involved : you lose exp (your opponent turns chaotic)
while being "purple" - in pvp involved : you lose exp
while being "red" (chaotic) & more then 5 previous Player Kills: you lose exp, you might drop gear, anyone can kill you without receiving penalty
To make you aware of the exp loss:
In order to receive 0.01% at lvl 75 you have to kill 1 monster ( 4% = 400 monsters)
To receive 0,01% at lvl 79 you have to kill roughly 8-10 monsters (1% = 800-1000monsters)
to receive 0.01% at lvl 85 ( max lvl) you have to kill roughtly 40 monsters (0,6% = 2400monsters)
(all based on solo hunting - group mobs give more exp but certainly take longer)
With the information above you can also see that it takes years to gain max lvl (taking the huge pvp warfares every evening / weekend which cause exp loss in consideration) - which to my knowledge nobody has ever reached in a legit way.
I love MMO`s - why dont they love me?
went to try the free 14 day trial(no credit card needed) only to find that the download sites require a credit card - well not fileplanet but it didn't work for me. Sounds interesting but I am not giving my info unless I intend to buy and I am not buying unless I know I will like the game.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Good thing everyone doesn't think like this - there'd be no games or movies and probably no books.
Why you would think Vanguard was hardcore I don't know.
The leveling (sub-50) is cake.
I mean I almost never max level a character (even in games I play for 3-4 years) but I did so in months and did nearly all the raids with relative ease in VG (got 50 in 5ish months of non-hardcore casual playing).
that description of Entropia Universe doesnt fit in a hardcore game, it perfectly fit in a piece of crap of a game..... lol i compare this game with real life and real life is more fun... "omg i was killing mobs in this game and ran out of ammo, gotta buy more with real money" ...... its more fun in real life to go bear hunting with a rifle and the ammo will worth your money....
pay money to play the game, and also pay extra money to get the things you need to play? that company is a freakin thieve, plus this game looks HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I tend to agree with your assesment of that game, lol.
Currently bored with MMO's.
I don't have to sub movies or books.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Well... It used to be the most hardcore. The last few years they have softened it up quite a bit. Not that L2 isn't still a hardcore game but it's only a shadow of what it used to be. I actually miss the old L2 before they added all of the buff drops, 'Helpers' and generally nerfed almost every class to hell (Especially the Healers.) The game today is nothing like it was when I played for 3 straight years from Beta to about Interlude(6th or 7th major expansion). After playing back then the game seems like it's in easy mode now.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Any game that let's you buy your way to the top along with setting and forgetting your skills is not hardcore. Hardcore for me is consuming one's actual playing time and EvE doesn't require that. Also any game trying to define itself as hardcore based on PvP is another huge fail. Since PvP competition can differ greatly from player to player.
For me anyway hardcore is making it through a horrendous grind and that honor for me personally is FFXI. No game in history freakin DE-levels you if you fail and die. That in my book is all I need to give it the hardcore badge.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
For PVP games, eve online , by far. Darkfall might come in close by, BUT I have not played it in a long while.
In EVE... there are many players and corporations who will pry upon you and kill you, pod you, just to boost their Killboard stats... trust me I did it all the time... not blue shoot it, 1 day old noobs included. I have killed so many noob miners and mission runners using high level tactics like RR and aggro flagging abuse to trick noobs into agressing and dieing horribly.
Yes I will admit I have a 50 mil sp player that can fly just about everything amarr except for moms and titans yet most of the corps i was in were wardeck extornitism corps that pick on weaker corps that dont have a good chanch.
Too quote my old corpmates eve blog, "EVE is about one thing and one thing only: survival of the fittest in an open sandbox. In more specific terms, it’s about one person or group doing everything in their power to achieve their desired ends and anything done to achieve that end is not only acceptable, but proof that you are good at EVE. If you have played this game for any significant amount of time and you still cling to some notion of honor or morality about how one should act in game, then you have not progressed past the tutorial. You are a noob." source
Dont believe me, well try it for yourself !
Free 14 day trial no cc needed http://www.darkfallonline.com/index.html
Life IS Feudal
I don't call any of the MMOs a hardcore really.
TOP MMORPG GAMES
For you hardcore is only about the grind and thats fair enough it's your opinion, but for most it is a combination of things, mainly associated with risk. A game that takes 3 years to grind to max level is not as 'hardcore' as one in which you can have all of your items taken from you after x years and be left with nothing. It's a game where other players can actively prevent you from achieving your goals and you theirs.
PVP games are more 'hardcore' than pure pve games simply because they add another element into the mix which complicates things. That isn't ofc to say that you cannot have hardcore pve games.
Getting to 'the top' in EVE is not about having umpteen skill points.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
But you still had to undock and do stuff to get that lucky implant drop. Speaking of implants, you'll need to buy some yourself and those +5s aint cheap.
The fundamental point that the OP is missing is that you dont "win" EVE by advancing your character. You "win" it by doing stuff, not increasing a number on your character sheet. Set a goal and achieve it. Hard to do that without undocking...
Give me liberty or give me lasers
i agree calling EVE and Darkfall the most hardcore games out there. its more depending on personal experience, which is more hardcore for you. EVE is more complex imho, which is one of many criteria for hardcore, but EVE got a huge (mostly) safe zone called Empire. but dont expect to have endless fun, if you play EVE the safe way forever. in Darkfall you step out of a small town and you are in danger. also for me the skill-by-use system of darkfall is more hardcore as the skill-by-time in EVE.
i could also imagine, that Mortal Online and Worm Online might be as hardcore as EVE and DF, but i just had a very short look at them.
looking to PVE games, its hard to say, what hardcore should mean. in all games since 2003 i am missing the versatility of the classes. it is all now simplified, refined, balanced .... they use the horrible word "Accessability". my EQ1 necromancer could kill stuff with at least 10 different techniques/tactics. and it was neccessary to master them all, if you went out soloing bosses. todays pve-combat system means hack&slay, root 'n shoot and aoe. thats it, no brain needed. so versatility, unrefined encounters and classes which have a meaning and are not balanced to death are part of a hardcore-pve for me. in addition a full blown player-driven economy and a very complex crafting-system is part of hardcore in PVE, too.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds