Originally posted by Beatnik59 So the question I pose and everyone should pose to these people charging a recurring fee is "what additional do I get each month to justify the additional amount I pay over the box price each month?"
It's just the price of admission. If you want to play, you have to pay. There are free games as well that offer a similar (if mostly lower quality) experience for free, but at this point you're paying to play, because the business model of that particular game has a subscription fee model. If you like the product, you pay, if you don't think it's worth it, you don't.
The point is though, we already "pay admission" when we pay the box fee.
What "extra" game do we get by paying "extra" each month?
If you are asking why most of the widely popular MMOs charge a monthly fee in the first place, then I think you have completely missed the point of the entire genre. You do understand how MMOs are different from normal games?
There are a few reasons you pay a fee in an MMO. There primary reasons being: One the cost of running active and persistant server worlds for your character to exist in. The second being the cost of developing new content for the game outside of the paid expansion model.
As for paying more than the standard $15 a month. I'm not suprised the cost would go up. To be honest it hasn't moved at all in almost ten years of pay to play MMOs. You have to figure that eventually inflation would catch up and companies would have to raise the rates. So I could put up with a slight increase in the cost of an MMO fee. When I say slight I mean a reasonable percentage increase. You can estimate normal market inflation in a stable economy to be about 1%-3% per year. That translates to about thirty cents (in US dollars). Since I would never expect a company to raise rates by mere cents I suppose I could live with a dollar or two.
With that said would I pay anything more than a slight adjustment for inflation for the traditional MMO experience? The answer is probably not. If we are talking a raise of 5 dollars of more I think the companies would be pushing the envelope. In order to justify such a large increase I would need to see tangable gains as to why X MMO that charges 20 dollars a month is better than Y MMO that charges 15 dollars.
If a company could justify the extra money with certain things I might consider it, like: Very frequent live evets. Extra GMs and customer service reps to address issues in a more timely manner. Intergrated voice chat. A larger devlopment team to have a consistent stream of large amounts of new content added on a monthly basis. Ect. I would need to see where the extra money was going.
I will not pay a lot more for the same old experience that I can get in any other MMO for a cheaper price.
The point is though, we already "pay admission" when we pay the box fee. What "extra" game do we get by paying "extra" each month?
Nothing extra. It's a part of the price of playing the game. It's one of the main reasons why good SP games are much better value than MMOs, unless the MMO is a truly spectacular game.
This is a touchy subject in I have always pondered why MMO's cost the EXACT same as single player games, or games with single player options, YET still costs nearly a quarter of the actual software cost EACH month just to play it..
I may be looking at it the wrong way, but what does software costs have to do with maintaining the servers? I understand the sub costs are to continually keep the servers up and running, but why charge 50 dollars for just the software which is useless until a subcription is paid for usually?
I understand that most mmo's with hefty box costs include a free month, but why not, as an actual reason and incentive to buy the box, lower the price to say 20 bucks (5 more dollars higher than sub price) which pays for your subscrition and they could throw neat things like added bonuses and maps to box customers..
I just dont understand how a box, with nothing more than a 15 dollar subscrition included can have to cost 50 dollars ( as much as a game that can be enoyed WITHOUT added subscrition costs).
Hopefully we will not let any company get away with raising that price, because I feel its already stretching into the "greed" category, anymore per month and either (A) the software will need to start being completely free downloadables or (B) or it will push the mmo's into a recession where less people will be able to afford, or willing to pay more than 15 bucks for EACH game they want to play + soft fee....
I truly think all NORMAL software mmo's should be free to download OR include bonuses in boxed retail versions
This is a touchy subject in I have always pondered why MMO's cost the EXACT same as single player games, or games with single player options, YET still costs nearly a quarter of the actual software cost EACH month just to play it..
Clearly this is done because the up-front money you pay for the software is in the bank, whether you choose to stick around or not. It's therefore less risky revenue than the "potential" revenue three or four months down the road. I'll bet that statistically less than half the folks who buy an MMO box are still playing three months later, so it makes sense for the company to front load their revenue into the box sale.
OK. Here is the problem with what a lot of you are saying
1. "I'd pay xx.xx dollars/pounds/Euro's for such and such if it was great"
-This is wonderful you're willing to commit to such a statement. The problem with this statement is that the gaming industry has not revolutionized enough to put out something this absolutely wonderful. Not only that but as I stated in my previous post, the customer service will still be the same, the dev's will still make the same amount of money, and the gold farmers, spammers and the economy spiraling out of control can not be fixed. Ever. (aside from removing currency thats able to be traded altogether).
Not only that, but take a look at these "next-gen" console titles right now, and the fact that we're paying 60 USD per game for nothing more then better graphics. Why is this? Because the development cost is more. Why should we pay a higher monthly cost if this is what we're paying for on the box price.
Also, you're still going to get bored with a game, you're going to get tired of some bullshit along the lines and you will quit the game. What makes 30USD vs 15USD anymore worth it to have that extra high for a little longer?
2. "Well i pay xx.xx USD/Pounds/Euro's to go out to (insert an entertainment venue here) and it cost way more then playing an MMO"
-This is all great and wonderful that these other forms of entertainment cost us more then it should for the night. But thats exactly it. Movies, football games, whatever it is that turns you on only last that ONE night, and then its over and gone.
Also think about it. You may put out how much money to go out to the movies in the evening, but to turn around and say "sure, i'll spend xx.xx on an mmo monthly cause i spent 30 bucks at the movies tonite" is just plain stupidity. What a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that we're still paying the cost of the box off the shelf which is worth the cost of roughly two movies for you and the misses. But then you pay a monthly fee of 15.00's in order to keep the new content coming, which is usually 4-6 months apart if not longer to get actual new content and some customer service, should you need it.
Comparing an MMO to some other form of entertainment is just stupid. When you see a movie and the teasers for it, you pretty much know whether you'll like it or not. In other words, you know what you're getting into, and if you're not sure you wait for it to go to the dollar theaters. You're not going to pay 100USD to go to a Steelers game when you hate football are you? I know i wouldnt.
All of this aside, MMO's are so... fickle anymore that if most people cant get into beta, they dont play the game until they get a chance to experience on a friends computer or they get a free trial. Personally I'm sick to the gills of having an MMO so hyped and we, as gamers, go out and buy it cause it looks like it IS the next greatest thing, and we end up horribly, horribly disappointed ::cough:: Vanguard at release ::cough::.
How many times have you been burnt on these video games and been horribly disappointed? The great thing about console games, is that if you're not sure about them just go and wait till one goes on the "used" rack and buy it, cause if you're not happy you can just return it. Unfortunately, computer games you can't quite do that with because anymore only places like Best Buy and Circuit City offer PC games which once opened, are no longer returnable.
edit: spelling errors
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
A lot of posters here are saying, "WoW is doing fine and charges $15 a month plus the box price." To me though, this just underscores that fees are too high. Because it seems to me that no game since WoW was able to sell itself with $15 fees at the level before WoW.
If the market will support an $18 or $20 monthly fee today, plus $50 box price, plus $20-40 expansions every quarter to half year, then why is every gaming company looking toward making the games less expensive for the consumer?
For example, while EVE charges $15 a month, EVE charges only $5 additional to start the game, and doesn't have intermittent expansions to buy on top of the monthly fee.
Guild Wars has intermittent expansions and a box price comparable to other games, but no monthly fee.
Funcom practically gives Anarchy Online away for one year, and charge for expansions and a monthly fee after a year.
Sony by contrast can't even give SWG away (but they try), and abandoned expansions altogether. Meanwhile, you have Smed trying every trick in the book to get rid of monthly fees altogether. Why would he do that when the market will support $18-$20 monthly fees?
Why? Because the market is showing that the MMO industry can't grow when they charge $50 box, $15 a month, and $20-$40 for expansions. If it could, don't you think these people from NCSoft, Funcom, SOE, and CCP would have done exactly that?
Now EA never really understood this industry. TSO and their mishandling of E&B and UO are proof of that. They are still working under the impression that they can do things the same way as 5 years ago, but the industry is way different from 5 years ago.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by spikenog How are F2P games taking over P2P...there are more people playing WoW than all the subscribers for every F2P game combined. F2P are generally crap grindfests wit no content built on a small budget and lots have in game items to purchase...with real money.
Maple Story is a free 2D game with over 56 million subscribers and the developer Wizet had a revenue last year of $250 million up from $200 million the previous year.
Okay it may not look as good as WoW, but I bet it's cheaper to run, develop and update.
The US dollar is overvalued. That means the US and their consumers that pay in $ are overspending, they can spend more than they actually have, but that will result in either a dollar crash or a recession. And the overspending isn't by a bit, it's by a lot. If China decides to sell it's US credits the US economy would crash. Some economist explained it this way: "It's like someone falling from a 100 story building, and passing the 50th floor and saying everything is fine. Not realising the person is about to crash."
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
The US dollar is overvalued. That means the US and their consumers that pay in $ are overspending, they can spend more than they actually have, but that will result in either a dollar crash or a recession. And the overspending isn't by a bit, it's by a lot. If China decides to sell it's US credits the US economy would crash. Some economist explained it this way: "It's like someone falling from a 100 story building, and passing the 50th floor and saying everything is fine. Not realising the person is about to crash."
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Not sure if I agree there tbh. The dollar as we all know is a currency currently dieing in the water, with OPEC for armbands, its only a matter of time in all honesty.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Luckily I dont want to play wow. I mean war. But for me I think the current price is too much but then america always seems to get charged less. at least in UK most fees are more, (yes even with the VAT taken off).
I can only hope good games coming out like aoc, kotor onlineand elder scrolls online chare the same or even less!
The US dollar is overvalued. That means the US and their consumers that pay in $ are overspending, they can spend more than they actually have, but that will result in either a dollar crash or a recession. And the overspending isn't by a bit, it's by a lot. If China decides to sell it's US credits the US economy would crash. Some economist explained it this way: "It's like someone falling from a 100 story building, and passing the 50th floor and saying everything is fine. Not realising the person is about to crash."
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Not sure if I agree there tbh. The dollar as we all know is a currency currently dieing in the water, with OPEC for armbands, its only a matter of time in all honesty.
Ya. But its an economic certainty that when the US economy coughs, the rest of the world economies catch a cold.
And I doubt that the currency issues are hitting the MMO market to the degree that some people are suggesting. If the MMO market was not doing well why haven't any of the other companies risen their prices as well.
I understand that most mmo's with hefty box costs include a free month, but why not, as an actual reason and incentive to buy the box, lower the price to say 20 bucks (5 more dollars higher than sub price) which pays for your subscrition and they could throw neat things like added bonuses and maps to box customers.. I just dont understand how a box, with nothing more than a 15 dollar subscrition included can have to cost 50 dollars ( as much as a game that can be enoyed WITHOUT added subscrition costs).
Your confusion results from a lack of understanding of the basic gaming distribution model. The developers actually receive no more than 5-10.00 of the box price. The rest of the price you pay is divided up between the retailer, the publisher, the distributor and the shipping cost. That's why all games, be they single player or MMO's cost the same at the store. The profit people want to make remains constant.
As to why you pay monthly fees for MMO's? Simple, to pay for the cost of billing, customer service, technical support, future development, profit, server costs/maintenance, power, expensive lunches at the Ritz etc.
And lets touch on the subject of profit. MMO's are getting expensive to develop. Therefore the risk is quite high and people expect to be rewarded handsomely for such risk. Therefore if someone is willing to shell out 75 million for a game, they are probably hoping for a tenfold return on that investment in a relatively short time. The downside of course is, most games tank, and never return on the investment.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The day my mmo rubs its tits in my face and shoves its ass in my face, then I'll pay the stripper price.
Doubt you would get a stripper doin that for less than 20bucks...n if you did...prolly not much of a nice lookin stripper.. N is she gonna do that for a whole month on 20bucks?
The point is though, we already "pay admission" when we pay the box fee. What "extra" game do we get by paying "extra" each month?
Sadly, I would say that about 95% of the time, we get bug fixes that any respectable singleplayer PC game would get as well. Check archives of patch notes, you'll see that most of the changes are "fixes" and not actually entirely new content. It's sad that even though we pay a monthly fee for ongoing content, developers still tend to charge us an extra $20-$50 for that extra content-- in the form of an expansion pack.
I understand that most mmo's with hefty box costs include a free month, but why not, as an actual reason and incentive to buy the box, lower the price to say 20 bucks (5 more dollars higher than sub price) which pays for your subscrition and they could throw neat things like added bonuses and maps to box customers.. I just dont understand how a box, with nothing more than a 15 dollar subscrition included can have to cost 50 dollars ( as much as a game that can be enoyed WITHOUT added subscrition costs).
Your confusion results from a lack of understanding of the basic gaming distribution model. The developers actually receive no more than 5-10.00 of the box price. The rest of the price you pay is divided up between the retailer, the publisher, the distributor and the shipping cost. That's why all games, be they single player or MMO's cost the same at the store. The profit people want to make remains constant.
As to why you pay monthly fees for MMO's? Simple, to pay for the cost of billing, customer service, technical support, future development, profit, server costs/maintenance, power, expensive lunches at the Ritz etc.
And lets touch on the subject of profit. MMO's are getting expensive to develop. Therefore the risk is quite high and people expect to be rewarded handsomely for such risk. Therefore if someone is willing to shell out 75 million for a game, they are probably hoping for a tenfold return on that investment in a relatively short time. The downside of course is, most games tank, and never return on the investment.
I think you make some good points. However, I think there are 2 counter arguments that side with the consumer. More and more people are using digital distribution both for MMORPGs and offline games. Yet for DD we still pay $50. In those cases often the publisher and distributer cut out the middle man and may make a much larger return. Especially if the publisher can distribute through their own store. Yet we are still subject to the same price as when purchasing a box from a store and often we are receiving less. Are there good reasons behind it? Possibly. Is it fair to the consumer? I'll let you decide.
Also, as the cost for making a game goes up, the room for profit doesn't necessarily go down. Even before the game is released and known to be a hit it may get licensed out to dozens of parties or the technology driving it is licensed out. I'd be interested to see how much The9 purchased the license for WoW from Vivendi. I'd be even more interested to see how much the value of their stock was affected. In these cases both companies are receiving huge gains while the consumer doesn't receive any relief.
After saying all that I'm still perfectly willing to put out 50 for a box and 15 for a game each month but as the prices of subscriptions go up the companies will have to justify the reason to me as a consumer, especially with so many free to play alternatives popping up.
I think you make some good points. However, I think there are 2 counter arguments that side with the consumer. More and more people are using digital distribution both for MMORPGs and offline games. Yet for DD we still pay $50. In those cases often the publisher and distributer cut out the middle man and may make a much larger return. Especially if the publisher can distribute through their own store. Yet we are still subject to the same price as when purchasing a box from a store and often we are receiving less. Are there good reasons behind it? Possibly. Is it fair to the consumer? I'll let you decide.
Funny you should bring this up. Digital Distribution is a really sweet deal for the developers. Due to the fact that they can't undercut their retailers, they are 'forced' to sell the digital download for the retail price.
This of course is like throwing the rabbit into the briar patch. They really keep much more of the money if people buy the game digitally (most times they don't even supply a disk or manual) so they love this arrangement which they are 'stuck' honoring.
So in a way, when you buy via digital download you are encouraging the developers by giving them a bigger piece of the pie. Me, I generally force them to provide me with the box, disk and manual when I buy it at my local EB store.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you make some good points. However, I think there are 2 counter arguments that side with the consumer. More and more people are using digital distribution both for MMORPGs and offline games. Yet for DD we still pay $50. In those cases often the publisher and distributer cut out the middle man and may make a much larger return. Especially if the publisher can distribute through their own store. Yet we are still subject to the same price as when purchasing a box from a store and often we are receiving less. Are there good reasons behind it? Possibly. Is it fair to the consumer? I'll let you decide.
Funny you should bring this up. Digital Distribution is a really sweet deal for the developers. Due to the fact that they can't undercut their retailers, they are 'forced' to sell the digital download for the retail price.
This of course is like throwing the rabbit into the briar patch. They really keep much more of the money if people buy the game digitally (most times they don't even supply a disk or manual) so they love this arrangement which they are 'stuck' honoring.
So in a way, when you buy via digital download you are encouraging the developers by giving them a bigger piece of the pie. Me, I generally force them to provide me with the box, disk and manual when I buy it at my local EB store.
Unfortunately I think way in the future we're going to see more and more digital distribution sales and eventually the retail stores are going to have to go that route as well. I just hope that consumer rights can keep up...not that I don't think developers shouldn't see a larger share mind you.
Fortunately for us the world and internet will continue to give physical retailers an advantage for a while longer yet.
again, Most of the people who complain about $180 a year MMOing, are the same people who would pay a cell phone bill 10x that and dont bat an eye, pay more than that going to the movies or renting DVDs or buying CDs, blow it at a club on a couple of overpriced drinks (and mebbe strippers?) or good ol Starbucks coffee without complaining. Funny thing is, they probably spend more time playing the MMO than doing any of the above. So they are actually getting a really good deal for their money. They dont value a MMO the same way they do the other stuff. They feel the other stuff is more important or valuable, since they pay and are happy. I never understand why/how they can play a MMO for more time than they do half of the above stuff, then complain about the prices of the MMO. As someone said earlier, other than going to the park and sitting on the grass, this is about as cheap a form of entertainment as there is available.
As for the value of the game or any game for that matter it isn't really comparible to other forms of entertainment such as the cinema (and deffinatly not strippers) because it isn't the same thing.
QFT
Finely, someone has said it.
Apples and Oranges people. While both are fruits, however taste differently.
Some are just missing the point here still. Everything from hardware, server costs, and materials used to make games is within the scope of the budget. Which means it is already paid for. EA owns Mythic which means they get paid a salary to make games. They don't work on commission. If Mythic was an independent game developer then I could see them charging monthly fees but they aren't.
Also Mythic is using a pre-existing game engine which was also used in DAOC which means that server costs are already being paid for. Wich also might mean they are using pre-existing servers as well. Also they get a salary to make games, they don't work on commission. Sorry but anyone thinking they are going to charge people more than 15 a month for a game is a scam deal in the making.
Some are just missing the point here still. Everything from hardware, server costs, and materials used to make games is within the scope of the budget. Which means it is already paid for. EA owns Mythic which means they get paid a salary to make games. They don't work on commission. If Mythic was an independent game developer then I could see them charging monthly fees but they aren't. Also Mythic is using a pre-existing game engine which was also used in DAOC which means that server costs are already being paid for. Wich also might mean they are using pre-existing servers as well. Also they get a salary to make games, they don't work on commission. Sorry but anyone thinking they are going to charge people more than 15 a month for a game is a scam deal in the making.
Eh....there is a budget for making the game yes...but any budget for running the game for 3+ years is calculated based upon expected income from the subscription. There is no way to run an MMORPG without having some sort of income to keep the servers running and the lights on for the staff. The 50 dollar box income usually covers the investment for development time and not the cost to run the game and staff it for 3+ years and make expansions. Even Free 2 Play games need income.
Prices, although I would love them to remain the same, will go up. On everything. This is a fact of life. I think gamers have been spoiled because although everything else around us in our daily lives has gone up and in a lot of cases, dramatically, MMOs have remained fairly steady overall. Whether apples or oranges, they still are cheaper than anything else that releases endorphines into our heads, or some other chemical that gives us that good feeling (short of hugging our kids). Its also a VERY cheap way to get some short term goal completion satisfaction or some long term feeling of accomplishment after a year of play.
I honestly would like to be able to direct all of the $15 a month I pay directly go to the people who invent the game. I would love to see the guys who say "yay" or "nay" to get a smaller salary because they didnt do any real work. Even if a company folds and goes bottom up, no one in a suit hardly ever pays a real price, a lot of times the guys at the top land on their feet very nicely, and with another game company. So I think that saying dont give the suits more is immaterial. They are always gonna get more, no matter how much a fee is, whether its15 or 50.
I just want better content. Right now, Im only willing to pay the current prices because I think all the games that are out now, the content isnt worth more than that. I havent played Warhammer (no beta) or AoC (same). So I dont know if its worth even $15 a month yet. I dont know if it becomes Vaporware. They may release it, and I think this is pure junk and quit. Or, they may release it, I LOVE it. Later, they may decide to raise the price to whatever due to popularity or "unforeseen cost increases". I would pay the new price if I was having a ball still. I might even feel like "Wow, I got over on them. I was playing for 6 months before they realized they were charging everyone too low." I wouldnt feel as if they broke some promise; its a company so theres no real ethics they are ever REALLY gonna have. So I dont feel "cheated". If I did feel that way, I would quit.
But mainly, in the big picture of life, its a glorified video game. So I dont get that worked up over a $20 monthly fee, even if I dont see where every penny of it goes into bandwidth, support or whatever. I just don't care that much. I dont think that makes anyone stupid. I think it just means their priorities on spending are different than others.
I dont think most people who paid $500 or more for playoff tickets at Heinz Field two weeks ago left the stadium thinking, "Cool, I totally got my money's worth today. The Jaguars ripped our asses out." I know probably 90% of the Steeler fans wished they had just stayed home, and watched the game on TV like the rest of America. Would have been cheaper, and they would have been warmer.
If they do feel like they got "value" I know I would think they were "stupid" but again, if thats what they want to spend their money on, who am I to call them sheep, or worse?
These companies arent making games for us. They are a business. They are making games so they can sell to us, so their stockholders can make money. So they can get more money. If they dont get the money, they wont make them. As long as they don't get crazy, Ill pay. Heck I may even go out and buy some stock in the company so I'm paying myself, hehe.
Prices, although I would love them to remain the same, will go up. On everything. This is a fact of life. I think gamers have been spoiled because although everything else around us in our daily lives has gone up and in a lot of cases, dramatically, MMOs have remained fairly steady overall. Whether apples or oranges, they still are cheaper than anything else that releases endorphines into our heads, or some other chemical that gives us that good feeling (short of hugging our kids). Its also a VERY cheap way to get some short term goal completion satisfaction or some long term feeling of accomplishment after a year of play. These companies arent making games for us. They are a business. They are making games so they can sell to us, so their stockholders can make money. So they can get more money. If they dont get the money, they wont make them. As long as they don't get crazy, Ill pay. Heck I may even go out and buy some stock in the company so I'm paying myself, hehe.
Response to Paragraph #1: While I tend to agree with you I don't think it is an attitude that consumers should take. Lets do an analogy:
CPU costs have decreased in HUGE amounts in the last 20 years. What used to cost $100,000 (for I believe 1 million transistors 20 years ago) now costs like 50 cents to make. As mfg costs go down so do the costs of the CPUs. In this case mfg and distribution costs directly affect the consumer cost.
One could argue that mfg costs of video games has gone up and not down over the years and while that is true so has the value of $50 dollars. Also as digital distribution takes a larger share from standard distribution the cost of publishing a game is DRASTICALLY reduced. So while development costs may be going up overall manufacturing costs should be affected less and less.
Now I realize your probably talking about the subscription cost not the box cost. In which case I honestly don't have a response for you. Perhaps some of the budget for distribution could be allocated to future server operation. I guess it all depends on how much more the cost would be. Either way it is up to the consumer to ensure that as prices go up they are justified and if not to push back.
In response to Paragraph #2: I love it. I agree fully so please understand that I'm playing devil's advocate more than arguing against price raises.
You could argue that actually the cost of a lot of everyday items has gone down. Food is one example (although the price of wheat is high now). But I digress.
Actually no, food prices are going up, it's just that they're going up with inflation, so it doesn't seem like they're going up. Though this isn't the case in the UK and most of Europe, because the prices in those countries are rising above inflation due to the EU Farming Policy.
The simple fact is, sub fees for MMO's should have been hiked up a long time ago. If they were rising with normal inflation, they'd already be well over $20 a month. You should all be thankful you've managed to get away for so long without having to pay extra, and things are just starting to normalise now. I imagine most big MMO's we see in the near future will start charging over $15 a month, and I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Blizzard started charging a little extra for WoW either. If WAR and AoC can charge 17.99 a month for example, there's no reason WoW shouldn't charge 15.99 or even 16.99, especially with another expansion as justification.
Comments
It's just the price of admission. If you want to play, you have to pay. There are free games as well that offer a similar (if mostly lower quality) experience for free, but at this point you're paying to play, because the business model of that particular game has a subscription fee model. If you like the product, you pay, if you don't think it's worth it, you don't.
The point is though, we already "pay admission" when we pay the box fee.
What "extra" game do we get by paying "extra" each month?
If you are asking why most of the widely popular MMOs charge a monthly fee in the first place, then I think you have completely missed the point of the entire genre. You do understand how MMOs are different from normal games?
There are a few reasons you pay a fee in an MMO. There primary reasons being: One the cost of running active and persistant server worlds for your character to exist in. The second being the cost of developing new content for the game outside of the paid expansion model.
As for paying more than the standard $15 a month. I'm not suprised the cost would go up. To be honest it hasn't moved at all in almost ten years of pay to play MMOs. You have to figure that eventually inflation would catch up and companies would have to raise the rates. So I could put up with a slight increase in the cost of an MMO fee. When I say slight I mean a reasonable percentage increase. You can estimate normal market inflation in a stable economy to be about 1%-3% per year. That translates to about thirty cents (in US dollars). Since I would never expect a company to raise rates by mere cents I suppose I could live with a dollar or two.
With that said would I pay anything more than a slight adjustment for inflation for the traditional MMO experience? The answer is probably not. If we are talking a raise of 5 dollars of more I think the companies would be pushing the envelope. In order to justify such a large increase I would need to see tangable gains as to why X MMO that charges 20 dollars a month is better than Y MMO that charges 15 dollars.
If a company could justify the extra money with certain things I might consider it, like: Very frequent live evets. Extra GMs and customer service reps to address issues in a more timely manner. Intergrated voice chat. A larger devlopment team to have a consistent stream of large amounts of new content added on a monthly basis. Ect. I would need to see where the extra money was going.
I will not pay a lot more for the same old experience that I can get in any other MMO for a cheaper price.
Nothing extra. It's a part of the price of playing the game. It's one of the main reasons why good SP games are much better value than MMOs, unless the MMO is a truly spectacular game.
This is a touchy subject in I have always pondered why MMO's cost the EXACT same as single player games, or games with single player options, YET still costs nearly a quarter of the actual software cost EACH month just to play it..
I may be looking at it the wrong way, but what does software costs have to do with maintaining the servers? I understand the sub costs are to continually keep the servers up and running, but why charge 50 dollars for just the software which is useless until a subcription is paid for usually?
I understand that most mmo's with hefty box costs include a free month, but why not, as an actual reason and incentive to buy the box, lower the price to say 20 bucks (5 more dollars higher than sub price) which pays for your subscrition and they could throw neat things like added bonuses and maps to box customers..
I just dont understand how a box, with nothing more than a 15 dollar subscrition included can have to cost 50 dollars ( as much as a game that can be enoyed WITHOUT added subscrition costs).
Hopefully we will not let any company get away with raising that price, because I feel its already stretching into the "greed" category, anymore per month and either (A) the software will need to start being completely free downloadables or (B) or it will push the mmo's into a recession where less people will be able to afford, or willing to pay more than 15 bucks for EACH game they want to play + soft fee....
I truly think all NORMAL software mmo's should be free to download OR include bonuses in boxed retail versions
Clearly this is done because the up-front money you pay for the software is in the bank, whether you choose to stick around or not. It's therefore less risky revenue than the "potential" revenue three or four months down the road. I'll bet that statistically less than half the folks who buy an MMO box are still playing three months later, so it makes sense for the company to front load their revenue into the box sale.
OK. Here is the problem with what a lot of you are saying
1. "I'd pay xx.xx dollars/pounds/Euro's for such and such if it was great"
-This is wonderful you're willing to commit to such a statement. The problem with this statement is that the gaming industry has not revolutionized enough to put out something this absolutely wonderful. Not only that but as I stated in my previous post, the customer service will still be the same, the dev's will still make the same amount of money, and the gold farmers, spammers and the economy spiraling out of control can not be fixed. Ever. (aside from removing currency thats able to be traded altogether).
Not only that, but take a look at these "next-gen" console titles right now, and the fact that we're paying 60 USD per game for nothing more then better graphics. Why is this? Because the development cost is more. Why should we pay a higher monthly cost if this is what we're paying for on the box price.
Also, you're still going to get bored with a game, you're going to get tired of some bullshit along the lines and you will quit the game. What makes 30USD vs 15USD anymore worth it to have that extra high for a little longer?
2. "Well i pay xx.xx USD/Pounds/Euro's to go out to (insert an entertainment venue here) and it cost way more then playing an MMO"
-This is all great and wonderful that these other forms of entertainment cost us more then it should for the night. But thats exactly it. Movies, football games, whatever it is that turns you on only last that ONE night, and then its over and gone.
Also think about it. You may put out how much money to go out to the movies in the evening, but to turn around and say "sure, i'll spend xx.xx on an mmo monthly cause i spent 30 bucks at the movies tonite" is just plain stupidity. What a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that we're still paying the cost of the box off the shelf which is worth the cost of roughly two movies for you and the misses. But then you pay a monthly fee of 15.00's in order to keep the new content coming, which is usually 4-6 months apart if not longer to get actual new content and some customer service, should you need it.
Comparing an MMO to some other form of entertainment is just stupid. When you see a movie and the teasers for it, you pretty much know whether you'll like it or not. In other words, you know what you're getting into, and if you're not sure you wait for it to go to the dollar theaters. You're not going to pay 100USD to go to a Steelers game when you hate football are you? I know i wouldnt.
All of this aside, MMO's are so... fickle anymore that if most people cant get into beta, they dont play the game until they get a chance to experience on a friends computer or they get a free trial. Personally I'm sick to the gills of having an MMO so hyped and we, as gamers, go out and buy it cause it looks like it IS the next greatest thing, and we end up horribly, horribly disappointed ::cough:: Vanguard at release ::cough::.
How many times have you been burnt on these video games and been horribly disappointed? The great thing about console games, is that if you're not sure about them just go and wait till one goes on the "used" rack and buy it, cause if you're not happy you can just return it. Unfortunately, computer games you can't quite do that with because anymore only places like Best Buy and Circuit City offer PC games which once opened, are no longer returnable.
edit: spelling errors
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
A lot of posters here are saying, "WoW is doing fine and charges $15 a month plus the box price." To me though, this just underscores that fees are too high. Because it seems to me that no game since WoW was able to sell itself with $15 fees at the level before WoW.
If the market will support an $18 or $20 monthly fee today, plus $50 box price, plus $20-40 expansions every quarter to half year, then why is every gaming company looking toward making the games less expensive for the consumer?
For example, while EVE charges $15 a month, EVE charges only $5 additional to start the game, and doesn't have intermittent expansions to buy on top of the monthly fee.
Guild Wars has intermittent expansions and a box price comparable to other games, but no monthly fee.
Funcom practically gives Anarchy Online away for one year, and charge for expansions and a monthly fee after a year.
Sony by contrast can't even give SWG away (but they try), and abandoned expansions altogether. Meanwhile, you have Smed trying every trick in the book to get rid of monthly fees altogether. Why would he do that when the market will support $18-$20 monthly fees?
Why? Because the market is showing that the MMO industry can't grow when they charge $50 box, $15 a month, and $20-$40 for expansions. If it could, don't you think these people from NCSoft, Funcom, SOE, and CCP would have done exactly that?
Now EA never really understood this industry. TSO and their mishandling of E&B and UO are proof of that. They are still working under the impression that they can do things the same way as 5 years ago, but the industry is way different from 5 years ago.
__________________________
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"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
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Maple Story is a free 2D game with over 56 million subscribers and the developer Wizet had a revenue last year of $250 million up from $200 million the previous year.
Okay it may not look as good as WoW, but I bet it's cheaper to run, develop and update.
No annoying animated GIF here!
From what i understand it's just one game... Which i wont buy... No need to panic or anything, if it charges more, odds are it will get less ppl.
-Would you like cheddar or swiss cheese?
-Yes.
-...
The monthly fee will be more than 14.99? I refuse to play this game if it's true.
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Not sure if I agree there tbh. The dollar as we all know is a currency currently dieing in the water, with OPEC for armbands, its only a matter of time in all honesty.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Luckily I dont want to play wow. I mean war. But for me I think the current price is too much but then america always seems to get charged less. at least in UK most fees are more, (yes even with the VAT taken off).
I can only hope good games coming out like aoc, kotor onlineand elder scrolls online chare the same or even less!
My blog:
It's sort of a two way street there. Without the US market, China would experience a similar crash, if not worse.
Not sure if I agree there tbh. The dollar as we all know is a currency currently dieing in the water, with OPEC for armbands, its only a matter of time in all honesty.
Ya. But its an economic certainty that when the US economy coughs, the rest of the world economies catch a cold.And I doubt that the currency issues are hitting the MMO market to the degree that some people are suggesting. If the MMO market was not doing well why haven't any of the other companies risen their prices as well.
Your confusion results from a lack of understanding of the basic gaming distribution model. The developers actually receive no more than 5-10.00 of the box price. The rest of the price you pay is divided up between the retailer, the publisher, the distributor and the shipping cost. That's why all games, be they single player or MMO's cost the same at the store. The profit people want to make remains constant.
As to why you pay monthly fees for MMO's? Simple, to pay for the cost of billing, customer service, technical support, future development, profit, server costs/maintenance, power, expensive lunches at the Ritz etc.
And lets touch on the subject of profit. MMO's are getting expensive to develop. Therefore the risk is quite high and people expect to be rewarded handsomely for such risk. Therefore if someone is willing to shell out 75 million for a game, they are probably hoping for a tenfold return on that investment in a relatively short time. The downside of course is, most games tank, and never return on the investment.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Doubt you would get a stripper doin that for less than 20bucks...n if you did...prolly not much of a nice lookin stripper.
. N is she gonna do that for a whole month on 20bucks?
Sadly, I would say that about 95% of the time, we get bug fixes that any respectable singleplayer PC game would get as well. Check archives of patch notes, you'll see that most of the changes are "fixes" and not actually entirely new content. It's sad that even though we pay a monthly fee for ongoing content, developers still tend to charge us an extra $20-$50 for that extra content-- in the form of an expansion pack.
Your confusion results from a lack of understanding of the basic gaming distribution model. The developers actually receive no more than 5-10.00 of the box price. The rest of the price you pay is divided up between the retailer, the publisher, the distributor and the shipping cost. That's why all games, be they single player or MMO's cost the same at the store. The profit people want to make remains constant.
As to why you pay monthly fees for MMO's? Simple, to pay for the cost of billing, customer service, technical support, future development, profit, server costs/maintenance, power, expensive lunches at the Ritz etc.
And lets touch on the subject of profit. MMO's are getting expensive to develop. Therefore the risk is quite high and people expect to be rewarded handsomely for such risk. Therefore if someone is willing to shell out 75 million for a game, they are probably hoping for a tenfold return on that investment in a relatively short time. The downside of course is, most games tank, and never return on the investment.
I think you make some good points.
However, I think there are 2 counter arguments that side with the consumer. More and more people are using digital distribution both for MMORPGs and offline games. Yet for DD we still pay $50. In those cases often the publisher and distributer cut out the middle man and may make a much larger return. Especially if the publisher can distribute through their own store. Yet we are still subject to the same price as when purchasing a box from a store and often we are receiving less. Are there good reasons behind it? Possibly. Is it fair to the consumer? I'll let you decide.
Also, as the cost for making a game goes up, the room for profit doesn't necessarily go down. Even before the game is released and known to be a hit it may get licensed out to dozens of parties or the technology driving it is licensed out. I'd be interested to see how much The9 purchased the license for WoW from Vivendi. I'd be even more interested to see how much the value of their stock was affected. In these cases both companies are receiving huge gains while the consumer doesn't receive any relief.
After saying all that I'm still perfectly willing to put out 50 for a box and 15 for a game each month but as the prices of subscriptions go up the companies will have to justify the reason to me as a consumer, especially with so many free to play alternatives popping up.
Funny you should bring this up. Digital Distribution is a really sweet deal for the developers. Due to the fact that they can't undercut their retailers, they are 'forced' to sell the digital download for the retail price.
This of course is like throwing the rabbit into the briar patch. They really keep much more of the money if people buy the game digitally (most times they don't even supply a disk or manual) so they love this arrangement which they are 'stuck' honoring.
So in a way, when you buy via digital download you are encouraging the developers by giving them a bigger piece of the pie. Me, I generally force them to provide me with the box, disk and manual when I buy it at my local EB store.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Funny you should bring this up. Digital Distribution is a really sweet deal for the developers. Due to the fact that they can't undercut their retailers, they are 'forced' to sell the digital download for the retail price.
This of course is like throwing the rabbit into the briar patch. They really keep much more of the money if people buy the game digitally (most times they don't even supply a disk or manual) so they love this arrangement which they are 'stuck' honoring.
So in a way, when you buy via digital download you are encouraging the developers by giving them a bigger piece of the pie. Me, I generally force them to provide me with the box, disk and manual when I buy it at my local EB store.
Unfortunately I think way in the future we're going to see more and more digital distribution sales and eventually the retail stores are going to have to go that route as well. I just hope that consumer rights can keep up...not that I don't think developers shouldn't see a larger share mind you.Fortunately for us the world and internet will continue to give physical retailers an advantage for a while longer yet.
As for the value of the game or any game for that matter it isn't really comparible to other forms of entertainment such as the cinema (and deffinatly not strippers) because it isn't the same thing.
QFT
Finely, someone has said it.
Apples and Oranges people. While both are fruits, however taste differently.
Some are just missing the point here still. Everything from hardware, server costs, and materials used to make games is within the scope of the budget. Which means it is already paid for. EA owns Mythic which means they get paid a salary to make games. They don't work on commission. If Mythic was an independent game developer then I could see them charging monthly fees but they aren't.
Also Mythic is using a pre-existing game engine which was also used in DAOC which means that server costs are already being paid for. Wich also might mean they are using pre-existing servers as well. Also they get a salary to make games, they don't work on commission. Sorry but anyone thinking they are going to charge people more than 15 a month for a game is a scam deal in the making.
Eh....there is a budget for making the game yes...but any budget for running the game for 3+ years is calculated based upon expected income from the subscription. There is no way to run an MMORPG without having some sort of income to keep the servers running and the lights on for the staff. The 50 dollar box income usually covers the investment for development time and not the cost to run the game and staff it for 3+ years and make expansions. Even Free 2 Play games need income.
Prices, although I would love them to remain the same, will go up. On everything. This is a fact of life. I think gamers have been spoiled because although everything else around us in our daily lives has gone up and in a lot of cases, dramatically, MMOs have remained fairly steady overall. Whether apples or oranges, they still are cheaper than anything else that releases endorphines into our heads, or some other chemical that gives us that good feeling (short of hugging our kids). Its also a VERY cheap way to get some short term goal completion satisfaction or some long term feeling of accomplishment after a year of play.
I honestly would like to be able to direct all of the $15 a month I pay directly go to the people who invent the game. I would love to see the guys who say "yay" or "nay" to get a smaller salary because they didnt do any real work. Even if a company folds and goes bottom up, no one in a suit hardly ever pays a real price, a lot of times the guys at the top land on their feet very nicely, and with another game company. So I think that saying dont give the suits more is immaterial. They are always gonna get more, no matter how much a fee is, whether its15 or 50.
I just want better content. Right now, Im only willing to pay the current prices because I think all the games that are out now, the content isnt worth more than that. I havent played Warhammer (no beta) or AoC (same). So I dont know if its worth even $15 a month yet. I dont know if it becomes Vaporware. They may release it, and I think this is pure junk and quit. Or, they may release it, I LOVE it. Later, they may decide to raise the price to whatever due to popularity or "unforeseen cost increases". I would pay the new price if I was having a ball still. I might even feel like "Wow, I got over on them. I was playing for 6 months before they realized they were charging everyone too low." I wouldnt feel as if they broke some promise; its a company so theres no real ethics they are ever REALLY gonna have. So I dont feel "cheated". If I did feel that way, I would quit.
But mainly, in the big picture of life, its a glorified video game. So I dont get that worked up over a $20 monthly fee, even if I dont see where every penny of it goes into bandwidth, support or whatever. I just don't care that much. I dont think that makes anyone stupid. I think it just means their priorities on spending are different than others.
I dont think most people who paid $500 or more for playoff tickets at Heinz Field two weeks ago left the stadium thinking, "Cool, I totally got my money's worth today. The Jaguars ripped our asses out." I know probably 90% of the Steeler fans wished they had just stayed home, and watched the game on TV like the rest of America. Would have been cheaper, and they would have been warmer.
If they do feel like they got "value" I know I would think they were "stupid" but again, if thats what they want to spend their money on, who am I to call them sheep, or worse?
These companies arent making games for us. They are a business. They are making games so they can sell to us, so their stockholders can make money. So they can get more money. If they dont get the money, they wont make them. As long as they don't get crazy, Ill pay. Heck I may even go out and buy some stock in the company so I'm paying myself, hehe.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Response to Paragraph #1: While I tend to agree with you I don't think it is an attitude that consumers should take. Lets do an analogy:
CPU costs have decreased in HUGE amounts in the last 20 years. What used to cost $100,000 (for I believe 1 million transistors 20 years ago) now costs like 50 cents to make. As mfg costs go down so do the costs of the CPUs. In this case mfg and distribution costs directly affect the consumer cost.
One could argue that mfg costs of video games has gone up and not down over the years and while that is true so has the value of $50 dollars. Also as digital distribution takes a larger share from standard distribution the cost of publishing a game is DRASTICALLY reduced. So while development costs may be going up overall manufacturing costs should be affected less and less.
Now I realize your probably talking about the subscription cost not the box cost. In which case I honestly don't have a response for you. Perhaps some of the budget for distribution could be allocated to future server operation. I guess it all depends on how much more the cost would be. Either way it is up to the consumer to ensure that as prices go up they are justified and if not to push back.
In response to Paragraph #2: I love it.
I agree fully so please understand that I'm playing devil's advocate more than arguing against price raises. 
Actually no, food prices are going up, it's just that they're going up with inflation, so it doesn't seem like they're going up. Though this isn't the case in the UK and most of Europe, because the prices in those countries are rising above inflation due to the EU Farming Policy.The simple fact is, sub fees for MMO's should have been hiked up a long time ago. If they were rising with normal inflation, they'd already be well over $20 a month. You should all be thankful you've managed to get away for so long without having to pay extra, and things are just starting to normalise now. I imagine most big MMO's we see in the near future will start charging over $15 a month, and I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Blizzard started charging a little extra for WoW either. If WAR and AoC can charge 17.99 a month for example, there's no reason WoW shouldn't charge 15.99 or even 16.99, especially with another expansion as justification.