Puddin, whenever the legality of EULA's come up there always seems to be a poster like you appearing to say how "binding" they are. Are you being paid by a game company to promote this tripe?
Originally posted by Puddin
Look No offense but if your arguing if it is "legal" or not well your hitting a wall. When you sign the Eula you sign a binding contract with that game, Also Games, if they wanted to, could go after after "Profits resulting from ingame content" If the gamming companies truly wanted to take someone to court and make sure they never did it again i am sure they could and win.
Couple of small points:
EULAs are usually written for US Law and I hate to burst your bubble but US Law only applies in the US.
Even within the US, while courts have upheld parts of the EULA on a case by case basis, no court ever, anywhere, has ever upheld the whole thing. Nor will they ever do so. Contracts don't work that way.
In many jurisdictions you cannot form a contract with a minor.
Clicking "Accept" is not the same as a signature unless you can prove the identity of the person clicking "Accept".
The EULA in some countries falls into a branch of law called the "ticket case" which is a legal minefield for all concerned.
Having said that - parts of the EULA may hold up depending on what is being argued and how.
The EULA also has some crossover with copyright laws - which are actually quite strong in some cases.
A Judge MAY uphold parts of the EULA in some cases. But a Judge may also find that specific terms are unreasonable and dismiss them.
When you sign a EULA, read it once over, don;t skim but READ it. You will notice it has alot of in it about how they own everything and in some cases even state that they will place fishing software to see what kind of programs and websites you visit to "Better service our customers and anticipate their needs" Most games don;t but some do and it is growing. When you, the consumer click the "Accept" button, it is as good as signing a piece of paper and sayign you understand everything in there.
I agree. READ it. But again, may not be legal even within some US States let alone outside the US.
Originally posted by Puddin
Look. All Game content is in fact Licenced and owned by the develepoers of the game. Plain and simple. That includes gold and other things.
Yes. In game. And getting back on topic - are Gold Farmers removing anything from the game?
And i skimmed over this thread but the before mentioned " the farmers just count the charge as fraudulent and get refunded method" May work wit One CC or 2, but that CC will notice that you contually tried to get the same company and why is it fruadulent?? Suddenly they investigate it and notice that you yourself are falsy reporting fraudlent charges?? Consider yourself in court or paying a hefty fine for a fals report cause the CC companies defend you, but if you screw around with they they bring the hammer down. .
If you have an account cancelled due to Gold Farming you could argue that the game company cancelled your account without a valid reason.
Again, it would depend on what jurisdiction you live in and the laws there.
For your account cancellation to be valid, the game company would have to take the matter to court and get the relevant parts of the EULA upheld in that specific case.
A Gold Farmer could easily counter argue that if the game allowed for players to exchange items in game then it was the designers' intent that this happen.
people will farm gold, its som ppls way to make money and other ppls way to save time, But in the end, The company that makes the game holds all of the cards and it all belongs to them. Remember that.
Well, they do have the right to cancel your account. You could argue against this - but it would be pointless because MMOs are very similar in many ways to a 'private club' where the game company is the host.
They have the right to refuse entry.
But, if there is an entry fee paid you can often get it refunded.
So they don't quite hold "all the cards".
To put it in a frame of reference that everyone knows, the famed NFL line about " Any reprduction without the expressed written permission of the NFL is Blah Blah Blah" The Game developers have that in the EULA, And the NFL goes after people who Show the games without their knowledge because its a business and in business you have to be able to control your product. There will be more court cases dealign with the internet when the juctice system comes around and the rights of Ownership will be fought about, but in the end, if the game developers lose the In game content... There will be no more games. They will shut them down because the profit margins will not be worth it. So If these Gold farmers win, Everyone else loses... Remember that.
What you are talking about here is copyright infringement. Not really applicable to Gold Farmers.
Gold Farming would be more akin to me arriving at a game early and buying lots of popcorn...
You then arrive halfway through the game and find they are sold out of popcorn... so I sell you some of mine...which you eat there on the spot.
Then the NFL then chucks me and / or you out of the ground and bans us. They refuse to give either of us a refund on our tickets.
They could argue that I don't have a licence to sell popcorn within the ground (and they would be right) but how do you think it would go in court?
I suggest you do further research on EULAs before you claim they are universally binding.
Frankly, giving out 24 hour bans instead of perma-bans to accounts buying gold is less than what every other MMO I know of does.
Less? No company bans you for buying gold. Sure, they claim they do. But its never happens.
I'm curious what MMO you know has banned people, not threatned to ban, for buying gold. I'd like to see links, also. Not that I don't trust your word. T
he only one I've ever heard of was WoW, and it was probably just trolls that were banned for hacking.
When a user plays an MMO, they Pay for the ability to play the service offered, that service has rules, rules state that You are allowed to further yourself ingame as an extention of yourself, in game currency and trade is encouraged but not out of it. So you can horde and everything but the moment you involve Outside funds, barter, or services, then your in violation.
It can and will be held up if the right lawyer argues it. Not they are not full Proof, but when a minor Uses money to buy a game, they are not held responsible and are infact tied to the creditcard or funing source they used as thats the age verification to see its not a minor. So the age doesn;t matter because it comes down on someone.
This whole argument over gold farmers is a Mute point. Its a simple point. The rules are set up the way they want them, They own everything. You "Rent" the time you play. Just like an Apartment. plain and simple. When you enter and aprtment, no mater what you have to abide by the rules, If they say no subletting, your not allowed to and if your caught you pay fines, get kicked out on the spot. Same in MMOs.
Granted going over seas the is a way to circumvent the process, but at the same time the game company might just limit access to to game. In an MMO its all about subscriptions and having a core group of abiding citizens makes for better fees then people who give them more headaches then its worth.
Look, there is no correct answer, but half the stuff people talk abotu is bullshit. I spouted a little but i tried backign most of it up with valid reasons. I am not sayign That all rules are then end all and walk a straight line, but to blatenly rebell and break the rulesof a privatly owned entertainment game that ruins the enjoyment for other players and is not what the game developers intended can be handled in a simple tried and true method. I am sure that if someone makes enough money off of the game, they can recoup all profits made off of the copyrighted products. Because wheater you agree with me or not, The copyright law covers the Video game in its entirity, Gold, items, Graphics, everything.
Your anlagy to popcorn is all wrong. Its as if i wathced the game on TV, Recored some plays and then offered to sell it to someone over the internet making a profit from it. Only instead of a recording device its gold, and the sale remains the same.
Just because music, movies, TV have been put on the internet for sale shredding copyright laws and such, doesn;t mean that they still don;t apply, even to creative works. In a MMO there is nothing in there that you can take outside the world. Its a rental property. Do i think you should be able to sell accounts or farm gold? Its not my place to really care. because these people doing this, making people like me or any normal people playing the game not get the experience the developers intended.
The developers Intended to take the game and every player, aside form GMs and such for admisitrative purposes, play from level 1-50 (in the case of PotBS), To start woth 0 Gold and make in game money with only paying a subscription fee to their company. The developer intent is quite clear, as in the EULA, it states that ownership is retained by the company operating it. Now some companies ignore it, iot promotes the game gets people to buy it, otehrs attack it agressivly and stick to their guns. Either way, they do hold all of the cards, ask a landlord who makes you sign a lease with a no sublet clause and then let them catch you renting the room out.... Quite similar.
An no i am not paid by anyone, simply was looking for a society for PotBS and got tired of finding only fourms with rants abotu this or that so i decied to blow off some steam when i had some downtime.
A little revolution is never a bad thing..... for goverments to experience not games. I personally believe in hard line stances. The rules are set, if they are broken your gone. Let the game live on its merit alone, let peopel attempt to sell and such, and watch the bans occur.
The True problem is that the money being defrauded by canceled accounts is not big enoguht for CC companies to really piut much effort into, if the gaming community baned togetehr, and started to crack down, with these charges occuring more frequently, an eyebrow would be raised and action taken to correct the loop hole. Untill it hurts someones bottem line, there is no reason to look through the hole.
Okay Puddin, I have clipped your post to the more interesting and relevant parts since I don't want to go point by point:
Originally posted by Puddin
... This whole argument over gold farmers is a Mute point. Its a simple point. The rules are set up the way they want them, They own everything. You "Rent" the time you play. Just like an Apartment. plain and simple. When you enter and aprtment, no mater what you have to abide by the rules, If they say no subletting, your not allowed to and if your caught you pay fines, get kicked out on the spot. Same in MMOs.... ... Because wheater you agree with me or not, The copyright law covers the Video game in its entirity, Gold, items, Graphics, everything. Your anlagy to popcorn is all wrong. Its as if i wathced the game on TV, Recored some plays and then offered to sell it to someone over the internet making a profit from it. Only instead of a recording device its gold, and the sale remains the same. ... ...
It's not really like renting an apartment. If you rent you have a lot of rights people in (most) MMOs don't have.
As I say, it's more akin to membership fees for a private club.
It's clear you don't understand copyright laws, how they work, and what they cover either. You are partly right and partly wrong.
But, to throw some of your own logic back at you: If you Rent an apartment and take a photograph of your girlfriend inside it - is that photo copyright the property of your Landlord?
.... In a MMO there is nothing in there that you can take outside the world. Its a rental property. Do i think you should be able to sell accounts or farm gold? Its not my place to really care. because these people doing this, making people like me or any normal people playing the game not get the experience the developers intended.... ...
This is worth a special note:
Gold Farmers do not take Gold Outside the game. How could they? And how is it they are affecting YOUR experiance of the game if you choose not to deal with them?
You could argue they cause in game inflation?
Okay - but that brings us back to candygirl's point - this is a design issue.
FWIW I will be interested to see how PotBS stands up to this - because I think there are a couple of elements in game which could leave the Gold Farmers crying? (We will see in 6 months or so)
.... Either way, they do hold all of the cards, ask a landlord who makes you sign a lease with a no sublet clause and then let them catch you renting the room out.... Quite similar. ...
Sub-Letting is more like selling your account rather than selling the gold within your account.
I know that is a variation on Gold Farming - but should be handled differently.
SOE, Blizzard, EA, et al are working hard to take away the "0 cost" account option for gold farmers, if only because it's become an expensive issue for them and Visa/Mastercard to deal with. Much of the ease of access in the last week has been because the pre-order accounts were essensially free to set up, but that ends tomorrow. We will continue to monitor the situation and make changes as needed to our tools so that we can detect and ban gold farmers and exploiters in a timely manner. Since we're all gamers and we don't want to see spam any more than you do, we're going to work hard to stay on top of the situation from day (-1).
SOE, Blizzard, EA, et al are working hard to take away the "0 cost" account option for gold farmers, if only because it's become an expensive issue for them and Visa/Mastercard to deal with. Much of the ease of access in the last week has been because the pre-order accounts were essensially free to set up, but that ends tomorrow. We will continue to monitor the situation and make changes as needed to our tools so that we can detect and ban gold farmers and exploiters in a timely manner. Since we're all gamers and we don't want to see spam any more than you do, we're going to work hard to stay on top of the situation from day (-1).
... Since we're all gamers and we don't want to see spam any more than you do, we're going to work hard to stay on top of the situation from day (-1).
Again, what is the issue here?
Spamming of the chat channels?
In which case - shouldn't you be monitoring people's use of chat rather than exchange of gold?
Originally posted by RickSaada
SOE, Blizzard, EA, et al are working hard to take away the "0 cost" account option for gold farmers, if only because it's become an expensive issue for them and Visa/Mastercard to deal with. ...
Maybe I am missing something here - but why is this hard?
The simple solution seems to be NOT to suspend / ban their accounts? (That way they have to pay for them?)
But, suspend their economic privilages?
In PotBS this could be done surely? - As a rough suggestion: Your lots accumulate hours but you cannot use them for a month (or pre determined time)? You can still get money via missions so you are not cut off from the game. That would slow the gold farmers down I wouild think?
They still have to pay for the account but have to grind for gold... ouch?
They use stolen credit cards on the accounts, or a mix, and do chargebacks when they get banned. So they don't even pay for the accounts they used. Believe me, it's ugly, and Visa/MC are levying heavy fines on top of the chargebacks. So all the game companies are having to fight this war. It's hard because it's not always easy to separate the spammers from the customers, and because of the way credit card companies operate to protect legit customers. One company even mass IP banned a huge chunk of China. It took less than 24 hours for them to set up a VPN tunnel to Europe and come in that way.
In general, it's not the people who are playing the game to make gold that are the worry for us, that we can account for (and although we'll ban them for spamming/selling in game it won't screw up the economy). It's people who find an exploitable bug and generate more cash than should be present in the game world (runaway inflation, anyone?). Fortunately we can spot that fairly quickly and shut down the offending missions.
Credit card chargeback - the new check bouncer with no penalty. Talk about a perfect crime.
CC companies don't even investigate chargebacks. The cards don't have to be stolen, and probably aren't. I'm sure you're aware of that Rick, and just trying not to stir crap up.
My company deals with chargebacks constantly. We take every precaution the CC companies tell us to do. They don't care. What is funny is we deliver our product to their door, and the CC company still does nothing with this easy evidence of fraud. They don't care its not their money, and they still get the 3% transaction fee. Mark my word CC chargebacks will become a huge problem for companies very soon. Far worse than bad checks ever were.
Well I certainly hope that in addition to penalizing buyers for 24 hours they are also eliminating illicit moneys. Cause just banning the account for 24 hours isn't really gonna provide much hurt. Now taking the money, that would hurt!
As to selling time and having a right to do so I'm not sure it is so clear cut. If I own land and tell you you can farm it I can certainly stipulate the use and behaviors you are required to comply by. You could not work a section and then sell the crop even to another worker without my permission if I have stipulated that such activity is not allowed.
Well I certainly hope that in addition to penalizing buyers for 24 hours they are also eliminating illicit moneys. Cause just banning the account for 24 hours isn't really gonna provide much hurt. Now taking the money, that would hurt!
It wouldn't really hurt either.
The first people that find hacks and dupes are gold farmers, because that's what they do. As long as a game doesn't check everything server side there will be hacks. Taking the gold away from them doesn't help , cause they make it faster than anyone else because they'll be the first ones to hack to farm, and it's spread out around accounts anyway.
And the more people you ban and money you take out of the system the more valuable it gets, especially on a game launch. If you take out 30% of the people with the biggest share of gold, you just made all the rest of the gold farmer's gold that much more valuable. So it's not that bad, because they take out a part but it makes the rest of the farm bots more valuable.
And the comment someone made about sueing a person because they didn't follow the EULA, you're joking right..It doesn't have any legal basis, and a small company would never sue over that, it would generate a lot of bad press. Only Blizzard can afford to do that, and they go after the company, not after individuals, and the best they have managed to do is get the players banned from the game. A judge would laugh EULA out of the court ;/, the plaintiff (game company) would end up paying the lawyers cost of the defendant and would get a fine over that here in europe.
Also, lol, the chargebacks are hard to stop because the company shuts down your account, so why would you have to keep paying? You shouldn't have to pay if you're banned, so when you chargeback based on that, there's nothing wrong with it. You didn't follow the game rules, but you also shouldn't be charged for something you can't play anymore, so the chargeback is justified.
They use stolen credit cards on the accounts, or a mix, and do chargebacks when they get banned. So they don't even pay for the accounts they used. Believe me, it's ugly, and Visa/MC are levying heavy fines on top of the chargebacks. ...
So, you are your own worst enemies here.
If they are using a stolen CC and you ban them - they get a chargeback - YOU get fined - AND their CC fraud is never investigated since the CC is never billed?
Again, don't ban them. You want to keep them in game so that they have to play the subscription fee. That way, if they are using a stolen CC it becomes fraud and the CC companies have to get involved.
So, suspend part of their account privilages - not enough that they can claim they cannot play the game - but enough that they cannot continue with the Gold Farming.
In PotBS suspending someone's access to the AH would not be game ending - but would certainly slow them down dramatically.
As I say, when their costs in time and money exceed their profits they will leave of their own accord.
The current system (in PotBS) allows a player to accumulate hours on their lots - log in once a week (as an example) - use all those hours at once - place the resulting product on the market and log out in a very short space of time. This is perfect for a Gold Farmer. They can make lots of money in very little actual time spent in game.
Suspension of AH privilages and / or ability to access lots really puts a serious dent in this as the player can still play the game but cannot make large amounts of gold for only a short time in game.
Because they are not "banned" - they are not entitled to a chargeback.
Suddenly the Gold Farmer is trapped - he / she has to either spend hours in game doing missions in order to make gold or move on.
Originally posted by RickSaada
.... In general, it's not the people who are playing the game to make gold that are the worry for us, that we can account for (and although we'll ban them for spamming/selling in game it won't screw up the economy). It's people who find an exploitable bug and generate more cash than should be present in the game world (runaway inflation, anyone?). Fortunately we can spot that fairly quickly and shut down the offending missions.
So, these people are finding exploits?
In that case - why are you banning them? Shouldn't you be paying them or thanking them for doing the job the Beta Testers were supposed to have done?
... As to selling time and having a right to do so I'm not sure it is so clear cut. If I own land and tell you you can farm it I can certainly stipulate the use and behaviors you are required to comply by. You could not work a section and then sell the crop even to another worker without my permission if I have stipulated that such activity is not allowed.
Again, you are confusing the issue.
"If I own land and tell you you can farm it..." so you are leasing me the land?
"You could not work a section and then sell the crop even to another worker..."
No. Sorry. If you are leasing me the land I am not one of your workers or your employee.
If you are talking about two farm workers selling crops to one another when they are simply employed to work the land - you would be correct - but that is nothing like the situation here.
The closest I can think of to compare this to a farm would be a "pick your own" type arrangement.
That is: Members of the public are allowed onto the land to pick their own produce (usually fruit in my experiance) - which they must pay for on exit from the premises.
Now, supposing you do this and two men come on to your land. One is lazy and in a hurry. He wants the fruit but does not want to pick it himself. So, he approaches the other man and offers to 'buy' the fruit that man has already picked.
Is he 'buying' the fruit? NO.
He is actually buying the labor and time - because when he leaves the premises you will weigh the fruit and charge him for it.
The transaction the two men did was between them and does not affect you in the slightest - nor does it effect any of your other customers.
Ban a farmer and he will pop up again. You can never remove them.
But, we do have games where there is no money at all. Still people enjoy playing them.
Quest/mission rewards that all can get. Or free armor/weapons/items when you get a new level. For example look at FPS games that we have today. Some of them are online and have a system that give the player a new weapon (or outfit) when he/she get a new rank.
With that kind of system people can still enjoy (might even enjoy it more) quests/missions and people can still PvP and have fun.
Dev's can sit and work on new quests and rewards and not sit and hunt gold farmers.
Bad part is that you must make a new type of crafting system or not have it at all.
With this system it's impossible to have farmers.
Need me at FLS? Just gimme a call. ^^,
Played: From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
Wasn't it last January that a company by the name of Sigil announced that it was taking serious measures to ban gold farming from it's MMORPG Vanguard, rather than commiting resources to fixing parts of the game that were not working properly, and making customers happy?
I remember when my avatar in Vanguard got stuck under the game world, and customer service told me to just delete the character and start another one. Sigh.....what ever happened to commiting resources to resolving customer issues?
Ah, but I guess that banning gold farmers is a much more noble allocation of resources from a public relations standpoint. It worked well for Sigil/Vanguard didn't it? That must be why Flying Labs is following the Sigil business model.
banning gold buyers, even for 24 hours is a step in the right direction. Three-seven days would make the message a little more clear, but kudos for taking a stance.
Ah, the sense of deja vu all over again...... Wasn't it last January that a company by the name of Sigil announced that it was taking serious measures to ban gold farming from it's MMORPG Vanguard, rather than commiting resources to fixing parts of the game that were not working properly, and making customers happy? I remember when my avatar in Vanguard got stuck under the game world, and customer service told me to just delete the character and start another one. Sigh.....what ever happened to commiting resources to resolving customer issues? Ah, but I guess that banning gold farmers is a much more noble allocation of resources from a public relations standpoint. It worked well for Sigil/Vanguard didn't it? That must be why Flying Labs is following the Sigil business model.
There is many MMO companys that bans goldsellers.
So what is with the deja vu and following Sigil's business model?
Ah, the sense of deja vu all over again...... Wasn't it last January that a company by the name of Sigil announced that it was taking serious measures to ban gold farming from it's MMORPG Vanguard, rather than commiting resources to fixing parts of the game that were not working properly, and making customers happy? I remember when my avatar in Vanguard got stuck under the game world, and customer service told me to just delete the character and start another one. Sigh.....what ever happened to commiting resources to resolving customer issues? Ah, but I guess that banning gold farmers is a much more noble allocation of resources from a public relations standpoint. It worked well for Sigil/Vanguard didn't it? That must be why Flying Labs is following the Sigil business model.
There is many MMO companys that bans goldsellers.
So what is with the deja vu and following Sigil's business model?
The game has not even been out a week. Serrvers are unstable, there are bugs to quash, and customer service is performing poorly. Banning gold farmers, and allocating customer service assets to take immediate action, as opposed to assisting subscribers, is the same direction Sigil went. I noted the customer service response time by a poster that reported gold seller spamming, as opposed to my customer service report response time, and can see the priority.
Priorities, my friend. Gold sellers are not paying subscribers, Flying Labs, in their own admission, does not collect dollar one off of them. However, I am a potential paying subscriber that they can collect dollar one from. However, when I turn in a customer service ticket regarding server connectability issues and request the restoration of a single durability point for a problem on their end they respond "Sorry, your fukked, thank you for the bug report, send us your $15/month, have a nice day".
Basically, they acknowledge they have server connectibility problems, but will do nothing to correct the problem it caused for the potential subsciber. They are unwilling to restore one durability point on a level 14 cutter (out of 4 durability points total), not a game imbalancing issue. Not really important to them, not really important to me, but it would go a long way toward customer satisfaction. Now, just think what their attitude would be about something that mattered caused by their game product malfunction?
Let me tell you a story about customer service. Apple Computer is the company. My son's $300 ipod stopped working, I took it into Apple, they checked it out and said the board was dead. They also showed me a dent on the back of the case. They said that kids put the ipods in their book bags at school, drop books into the book bags, and eventually one hits the ipod. The ipod case is thin, not durable, and does not protect the board inside, causing it to break. They told me that was not a warrantee issue, but that they would give me a brand new $300 ipod anyway. THAT is customer service!
Why did Apple do that? Because my son and two daughters use the same account, and Apple can see how much money they have spent on song downloads (Itunes cards are good birthday/christmas gifts). So, Apple knows that giving up a $300 ipod will continue the itunes income stream. Apple also knows that I will walk out of the store in shock that I received a new $300 ipod without a fight, and that I will tell my friends and coworkers (which I did). That is good PR for Apple, and brings them the new customers at the expense of the competition..
Now lets fast foreward to Flying Labs business model. During a launch period of unstable servers they are unwilling to give up a single durability point on a level 14 cutter to insure customer satisfaction, and their income steam. This is much, much less of a concession value on their part than a $300 ipod, it basically costs them nothing. Not good customer service at all....too inflexible, too think inside the box.
Sigil had the same problem, think inside the box. Quashing gold sellers and talking about their first expansion was their idea of PR, rather than resolving customer issues. It cost them dearly. I am absolutely amazed that, one year later, Flying Labs is modeling their customer service/PR after Sigil's, as opposed to modelling it after Apple computer. Deja Vu again.....
Seriously. Can someone please give me a good argument how Gold Farmers "hurt" a game besides spamming the chat channels?
Let's see;
They spam the chat channels - OK so target the SPAM and abuse of chat!
They find exploits - OK so fix the exploits and say "Thank you for doing what we should have done in Beta"
They "create" inflation - isn't this a design issue? They are creating gold in game as any other player can do? If the economy suffers from inflation then isn't this a design problem?
I'm sorry - but you are not convincing me yet.
And I agree with olddaddy - wouldn't resources be better employed elsewhere?
ATM I read that server "rollbacks" and lockouts are costing players hundreds of thousands of Dubloons?
If anything, isn't this driving people toward dealing with Gold Farmers?
How would you feel about playing a game of Monopoly with people who had a stash of extra $500 bills in their pocket that they would pull out to 'supplement' their normal income whenever they wanted. How would you feel about playing with those people? How would you feel about them, in general? Do you think it is right, fair, or good for the game for some people to have access to extra Monopoly money, while others do not?
Buying and selling gold is *against the rules* of the game (well, in most games, anyway - and those are the ones we are discussing). If you do it anyway, you are *breaking the rules* of the game. Breaking the rules is the definition of *cheating*. I don't appreciate or enjoy playing games with cheaters; neither do most other people.
There are numerous games out there designed with robust enough economies to survive gold selling just fine. There are even some that sell money directly from the game provider! But there are other games where this is not permitted behavior; where it is against the rules. And so most people follow the rules, giving an edge to cheaters. This is not right, or fair. This is my primary personal objection.
More complex, you have to delve into the concepts of economy in the virtual world. They're pretty weak structures, in general, and easily upset at the best of times. However, they are usually maintained in relative balance by a faucet-drain approach. Players go get money (faucet) from questing and looting; the game then forces them to spend about the same amount as they have earned on upkeep, new gear, etc (drain). The closer in balance these two forces are in a "standard MMO economy" (that is, a DikuMUD style like WOW/EQ/POTBS) the longer the economy will remain stable.
Gold farmers upset this by rushing to a level and then stabilizing there; since to level farther would require them to spend as much gold as they make (or close), they stabilize at one point, and begin farming that level of mob. Thus each gold farmer becomes a faucet without a drain - their income is extra money input which the economy was not designed to support. That money flows around to players (who buy it), who then have more money ingame - which lets them sell things on auction a bit cheaper, perhaps, or give away a few items to newbies who they might not have been able to before. It might let them undercut non-cheating crafters to cut them out of the market completely. The net result is the devaluing of ALL items in the game (or close to all) by a small amount each time gold is sold, instead of being used.
The annoyance factor is not without note as well. If gold farmers stuck to instances, it would be one thing. In general, they do not, and instead locate and farm the best moneymaking areas - over and over - often to a level that prevents other players from using the spot efficiently. Nonstop. Always - 24/7. It's annoying.
The /tells are even worse. Designers are trying to wrack their brains for ways around THAT little mess right now... The real flaw is the free accounts, of course, but those free accounts net huge returns in cash. The answers I've heard bandied around range from limiting free accounts per IP address per month; or requiring a credit card for a free account, and not allowing more than one free account per card; or turning off /tells on free accounts; or limiting the number of /tells per hour from free accounts (usually coupled with limiting # of free accounts somehow, as mentioned above... There are not really any *great* solutions - so long as you have free accounts, you're going to have issues with spammers, most likely. Doesn't make me any happier to have to listen to their garbage.
I kind of agree with Gyrus. Gold Farming is teh result of bad design. People who suggest it causes inflation apparently haven't yet figured out that most video games don't actually have an economy. IN a real economy, there is a FINITE amount of money in circulation. If more is introduced into circulation, the value of each individual note goes down.
In a lot of these video games, money is CONSTANTLY being produced from thin air. Inflation is going to happen regardless of Gold Farming because the entire system is forcing it by not limiting the amount of money inside it. In a perfect world, the would be very finite amounts of "gold". That would create a true economy, where this set amount got passed around from vendor to vendor and player to player. Eventually, you'd find a situation very similar to the world we see now...where some people would be very well off and others would never be.
But as long as these games still introduce money into the system from thin air....ingame economy will just never exist.
Have you ever played Monopoly? How would you feel about playing a game of Monopoly with people who had a stash of extra $500 bills in their pocket that they would pull out to 'supplement' their normal income whenever they wanted. How would you feel about playing with those people? How would you feel about them, in general? Do you think it is right, fair, or good for the game for some people to have access to extra Monopoly money, while others do not?
Interesting you should mention Monopoly. Sadly for you I have done some serious analysis of Monopoly in the past (when I was really into game design)...
Monopoly actually has a couple of things in common with todays MMOs.
Do you know that when it was first shown to Parker it had "52 design flaws"?
And Monopoly does actually suffer from inflation in the same way as MMOs and for the same reason:
PASS GO - COLLECT $200.
Also, due to Monopoly's design the game can rapidly stalemate if players DON'T agree to trade properties "off the board" via negotiation... oh oh... what's that then? Starting to look a lot like Gold Farming?
{FWIW Junior Monopoly is actually a better game (in terms of game design) IMHO.}
As for the rest of your post: As for it being "against the rules" - OK fair point - but WHY?
Again we come back to weaknesses in the virtual economies.
It causes inflation? No, being able to endlessly produce money causes inflation.
You sum it up nicely with the faucet and drain analogy.
You again mention issues which fall back on game design and spamming of chat channels.
So once again, what is the issue here. If it's the chat spam - target that.
However, I am a potential paying subscriber that they can collect dollar one from. However, when I turn in a customer service ticket regarding server connectability issues and request the restoration of a single durability point for a problem on their end they respond "Sorry, your fukked, thank you for the bug report, send us your $15/month, have a nice day". No I don't think they replied like that.
There is many MMO companys that bans goldsellers.
So what is with the deja vu and following Sigil's business model?
The game has not even been out a week.
Exactly...
Serrvers are unstable, there are bugs to quash, and customer service is performing poorly.
Have you asked those that have used customer service and recieved it well or are you only looking at those that have issues with it and judge it by that. For your Apple example, do you think they only have positive reviews about their customer service.
Banning gold farmers, and allocating customer service assets to take immediate action, as opposed to assisting subscribers, is the same direction Sigil went.
They are assisting subscribers, ofcourse they why wouldn't they.
I noted the customer service response time by a poster that reported gold seller spamming, as opposed to my customer service report response time, and can see the priority.
I have had response time withing the hour and got that issue fixed withing the hour. The reason that the gold spam was responded to can be that it is easier, and faster, to fix.
But still even though your issue had longer response time does not equal that they don't care. Your issue could be something that they have to think and discuss about first.
Priorities, my friend. Gold sellers are not paying subscribers, Flying Labs, in their own admission, does not collect dollar one off of them. Basically, they acknowledge they have server connectibility problems, but will do nothing to correct the problem it caused for the potential subsciber. They are unwilling to restore one durability point on a level 14 cutter (out of 4 durability points total), not a game imbalancing issue.
Which is not that strange, sorry for your loss, but if they would start to do that it could be abused in the end. In which case it is better to keep a straigth line from starters.
They told me that was not a warrantee issue, but that they would give me a brand new $300 ipod anyway. THAT is customer service!
Awfully nice of them. So if I buy cheap broken Ipods on ebay I can go and get a new one, not likely.
There is something called "goodwill" but that is not used regurarly.
That is good PR for Apple, and brings them the new customers at the expense of the competition..
SOE offered me 1½ months free subscription even though they didn't need to, is that the same as expecting them to do it to all, no.
Pissing people off one customer at a time.......
You are assuming that FLS would not care about their customer based on that they did not help you. Sorry but that is black/white thinking and is in any cases wrong.
Your story could be used with any company, not only MMO's, out there.
Interesting you should mention Monopoly. Sadly for you I have done some serious analysis of Monopoly in the past (when I was really into game design)... Monopoly actually has a couple of things in common with todays MMOs.
Do you know that when it was first shown to Parker it had "52 design flaws"?
And Monopoly does actually suffer from inflation in the same way as MMOs and for the same reason:
PASS GO - COLLECT $200. Also, due to Monopoly's design the game can rapidly stalemate if players DON'T agree to trade properties "off the board" via negotiation... oh oh... what's that then? Starting to look a lot like Gold Farming? {FWIW Junior Monopoly is actually a better game (in terms of game design) IMHO.}
As for the rest of your post: As for it being "against the rules" - OK fair point - but WHY?
Again we come back to weaknesses in the virtual economies.
It causes inflation? No, being able to endlessly produce money causes inflation.
You sum it up nicely with the faucet and drain analogy. You again mention issues which fall back on game design and spamming of chat channels.
So once again, what is the issue here. If it's the chat spam - target that.
You completely ignored my point regarding Monopoly; lets use chess instead then. Would you keep playing with someone who switches pieces every time you turn your head away? Or would you play ANY game with someone who routinely cheats?
If it is against the rules, it is cheating. Cheaters SHOULD be barred from playing the game. I'm not arguing here whether it *should be* against the rules or not - but it is, and if it is, then banning those players is the right thing to do.
Yes, virtual economies are generally weak and easily abused. So rules are set into place to help prevent that sort of abuse. People who break those rules for profit are hurting every player.
Should the devs work at developing a better economic model? Perhaps. But should the players feel like they are being ethical cheating at the game because there is a flaw in the design? I would think not.
Yes, those economies will eventually run into trouble anyway, even without gold farmers. But it will happen much, much faster with them.
Comments
Puddin, whenever the legality of EULA's come up there always seems to be a poster like you appearing to say how "binding" they are. Are you being paid by a game company to promote this tripe?
Couple of small points:
EULAs are usually written for US Law and I hate to burst your bubble but US Law only applies in the US.
Even within the US, while courts have upheld parts of the EULA on a case by case basis, no court ever, anywhere, has ever upheld the whole thing. Nor will they ever do so. Contracts don't work that way.
In many jurisdictions you cannot form a contract with a minor.
Clicking "Accept" is not the same as a signature unless you can prove the identity of the person clicking "Accept".
The EULA in some countries falls into a branch of law called the "ticket case" which is a legal minefield for all concerned.
Having said that - parts of the EULA may hold up depending on what is being argued and how.
The EULA also has some crossover with copyright laws - which are actually quite strong in some cases.
A Judge MAY uphold parts of the EULA in some cases. But a Judge may also find that specific terms are unreasonable and dismiss them.
I agree. READ it. But again, may not be legal even within some US States let alone outside the US.
Yes. In game. And getting back on topic - are Gold Farmers removing anything from the game?
If you have an account cancelled due to Gold Farming you could argue that the game company cancelled your account without a valid reason.
Again, it would depend on what jurisdiction you live in and the laws there.
For your account cancellation to be valid, the game company would have to take the matter to court and get the relevant parts of the EULA upheld in that specific case.
A Gold Farmer could easily counter argue that if the game allowed for players to exchange items in game then it was the designers' intent that this happen.
Well, they do have the right to cancel your account. You could argue against this - but it would be pointless because MMOs are very similar in many ways to a 'private club' where the game company is the host.
They have the right to refuse entry.
But, if there is an entry fee paid you can often get it refunded.
So they don't quite hold "all the cards".
What you are talking about here is copyright infringement. Not really applicable to Gold Farmers.
Gold Farming would be more akin to me arriving at a game early and buying lots of popcorn...
You then arrive halfway through the game and find they are sold out of popcorn... so I sell you some of mine...which you eat there on the spot.
Then the NFL then chucks me and / or you out of the ground and bans us. They refuse to give either of us a refund on our tickets.
They could argue that I don't have a licence to sell popcorn within the ground (and they would be right) but how do you think it would go in court?
I suggest you do further research on EULAs before you claim they are universally binding.
I assure you they are not...Remember that.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I'm curious what MMO you know has banned people, not threatned to ban, for buying gold. I'd like to see links, also. Not that I don't trust your word. T
he only one I've ever heard of was WoW, and it was probably just trolls that were banned for hacking.
DDO absolutely has.
When a user plays an MMO, they Pay for the ability to play the service offered, that service has rules, rules state that You are allowed to further yourself ingame as an extention of yourself, in game currency and trade is encouraged but not out of it. So you can horde and everything but the moment you involve Outside funds, barter, or services, then your in violation.
It can and will be held up if the right lawyer argues it. Not they are not full Proof, but when a minor Uses money to buy a game, they are not held responsible and are infact tied to the creditcard or funing source they used as thats the age verification to see its not a minor. So the age doesn;t matter because it comes down on someone.
This whole argument over gold farmers is a Mute point. Its a simple point. The rules are set up the way they want them, They own everything. You "Rent" the time you play. Just like an Apartment. plain and simple. When you enter and aprtment, no mater what you have to abide by the rules, If they say no subletting, your not allowed to and if your caught you pay fines, get kicked out on the spot. Same in MMOs.
Granted going over seas the is a way to circumvent the process, but at the same time the game company might just limit access to to game. In an MMO its all about subscriptions and having a core group of abiding citizens makes for better fees then people who give them more headaches then its worth.
Look, there is no correct answer, but half the stuff people talk abotu is bullshit. I spouted a little but i tried backign most of it up with valid reasons. I am not sayign That all rules are then end all and walk a straight line, but to blatenly rebell and break the rulesof a privatly owned entertainment game that ruins the enjoyment for other players and is not what the game developers intended can be handled in a simple tried and true method. I am sure that if someone makes enough money off of the game, they can recoup all profits made off of the copyrighted products. Because wheater you agree with me or not, The copyright law covers the Video game in its entirity, Gold, items, Graphics, everything.
Your anlagy to popcorn is all wrong. Its as if i wathced the game on TV, Recored some plays and then offered to sell it to someone over the internet making a profit from it. Only instead of a recording device its gold, and the sale remains the same.
Just because music, movies, TV have been put on the internet for sale shredding copyright laws and such, doesn;t mean that they still don;t apply, even to creative works. In a MMO there is nothing in there that you can take outside the world. Its a rental property. Do i think you should be able to sell accounts or farm gold? Its not my place to really care. because these people doing this, making people like me or any normal people playing the game not get the experience the developers intended.
The developers Intended to take the game and every player, aside form GMs and such for admisitrative purposes, play from level 1-50 (in the case of PotBS), To start woth 0 Gold and make in game money with only paying a subscription fee to their company. The developer intent is quite clear, as in the EULA, it states that ownership is retained by the company operating it. Now some companies ignore it, iot promotes the game gets people to buy it, otehrs attack it agressivly and stick to their guns. Either way, they do hold all of the cards, ask a landlord who makes you sign a lease with a no sublet clause and then let them catch you renting the room out.... Quite similar.
An no i am not paid by anyone, simply was looking for a society for PotBS and got tired of finding only fourms with rants abotu this or that so i decied to blow off some steam when i had some downtime.
A little revolution is never a bad thing..... for goverments to experience not games. I personally believe in hard line stances. The rules are set, if they are broken your gone. Let the game live on its merit alone, let peopel attempt to sell and such, and watch the bans occur.
The True problem is that the money being defrauded by canceled accounts is not big enoguht for CC companies to really piut much effort into, if the gaming community baned togetehr, and started to crack down, with these charges occuring more frequently, an eyebrow would be raised and action taken to correct the loop hole. Untill it hurts someones bottem line, there is no reason to look through the hole.
Okay Puddin, I have clipped your post to the more interesting and relevant parts since I don't want to go point by point:
It's not really like renting an apartment. If you rent you have a lot of rights people in (most) MMOs don't have.
As I say, it's more akin to membership fees for a private club.
It's clear you don't understand copyright laws, how they work, and what they cover either. You are partly right and partly wrong.
But, to throw some of your own logic back at you: If you Rent an apartment and take a photograph of your girlfriend inside it - is that photo copyright the property of your Landlord?
This is worth a special note:
Gold Farmers do not take Gold Outside the game. How could they? And how is it they are affecting YOUR experiance of the game if you choose not to deal with them?
You could argue they cause in game inflation?
Okay - but that brings us back to candygirl's point - this is a design issue.
FWIW I will be interested to see how PotBS stands up to this - because I think there are a couple of elements in game which could leave the Gold Farmers crying? (We will see in 6 months or so)
Sub-Letting is more like selling your account rather than selling the gold within your account.
I know that is a variation on Gold Farming - but should be handled differently.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
SOE, Blizzard, EA, et al are working hard to take away the "0 cost" account option for gold farmers, if only because it's become an expensive issue for them and Visa/Mastercard to deal with. Much of the ease of access in the last week has been because the pre-order accounts were essensially free to set up, but that ends tomorrow. We will continue to monitor the situation and make changes as needed to our tools so that we can detect and ban gold farmers and exploiters in a timely manner. Since we're all gamers and we don't want to see spam any more than you do, we're going to work hard to stay on top of the situation from day (-1).
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Thanks!
Spamming of the chat channels?
In which case - shouldn't you be monitoring people's use of chat rather than exchange of gold?
Maybe I am missing something here - but why is this hard?
The simple solution seems to be NOT to suspend / ban their accounts? (That way they have to pay for them?)
But, suspend their economic privilages?
In PotBS this could be done surely? - As a rough suggestion: Your lots accumulate hours but you cannot use them for a month (or pre determined time)? You can still get money via missions so you are not cut off from the game. That would slow the gold farmers down I wouild think?
They still have to pay for the account but have to grind for gold... ouch?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
They use stolen credit cards on the accounts, or a mix, and do chargebacks when they get banned. So they don't even pay for the accounts they used. Believe me, it's ugly, and Visa/MC are levying heavy fines on top of the chargebacks. So all the game companies are having to fight this war. It's hard because it's not always easy to separate the spammers from the customers, and because of the way credit card companies operate to protect legit customers. One company even mass IP banned a huge chunk of China. It took less than 24 hours for them to set up a VPN tunnel to Europe and come in that way.
In general, it's not the people who are playing the game to make gold that are the worry for us, that we can account for (and although we'll ban them for spamming/selling in game it won't screw up the economy). It's people who find an exploitable bug and generate more cash than should be present in the game world (runaway inflation, anyone?). Fortunately we can spot that fairly quickly and shut down the offending missions.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Credit card chargeback - the new check bouncer with no penalty. Talk about a perfect crime.
CC companies don't even investigate chargebacks. The cards don't have to be stolen, and probably aren't. I'm sure you're aware of that Rick, and just trying not to stir crap up.
My company deals with chargebacks constantly. We take every precaution the CC companies tell us to do. They don't care. What is funny is we deliver our product to their door, and the CC company still does nothing with this easy evidence of fraud. They don't care its not their money, and they still get the 3% transaction fee. Mark my word CC chargebacks will become a huge problem for companies very soon. Far worse than bad checks ever were.
Well I certainly hope that in addition to penalizing buyers for 24 hours they are also eliminating illicit moneys. Cause just banning the account for 24 hours isn't really gonna provide much hurt. Now taking the money, that would hurt!
As to selling time and having a right to do so I'm not sure it is so clear cut. If I own land and tell you you can farm it I can certainly stipulate the use and behaviors you are required to comply by. You could not work a section and then sell the crop even to another worker without my permission if I have stipulated that such activity is not allowed.
---
Ethion
It wouldn't really hurt either.
The first people that find hacks and dupes are gold farmers, because that's what they do. As long as a game doesn't check everything server side there will be hacks. Taking the gold away from them doesn't help , cause they make it faster than anyone else because they'll be the first ones to hack to farm, and it's spread out around accounts anyway.
And the more people you ban and money you take out of the system the more valuable it gets, especially on a game launch. If you take out 30% of the people with the biggest share of gold, you just made all the rest of the gold farmer's gold that much more valuable. So it's not that bad, because they take out a part but it makes the rest of the farm bots more valuable.
And the comment someone made about sueing a person because they didn't follow the EULA, you're joking right..It doesn't have any legal basis, and a small company would never sue over that, it would generate a lot of bad press. Only Blizzard can afford to do that, and they go after the company, not after individuals, and the best they have managed to do is get the players banned from the game. A judge would laugh EULA out of the court ;/, the plaintiff (game company) would end up paying the lawyers cost of the defendant and would get a fine over that here in europe.
Also, lol, the chargebacks are hard to stop because the company shuts down your account, so why would you have to keep paying? You shouldn't have to pay if you're banned, so when you chargeback based on that, there's nothing wrong with it. You didn't follow the game rules, but you also shouldn't be charged for something you can't play anymore, so the chargeback is justified.
So, you are your own worst enemies here.
If they are using a stolen CC and you ban them - they get a chargeback - YOU get fined - AND their CC fraud is never investigated since the CC is never billed?
Again, don't ban them. You want to keep them in game so that they have to play the subscription fee. That way, if they are using a stolen CC it becomes fraud and the CC companies have to get involved.
So, suspend part of their account privilages - not enough that they can claim they cannot play the game - but enough that they cannot continue with the Gold Farming.
In PotBS suspending someone's access to the AH would not be game ending - but would certainly slow them down dramatically.
As I say, when their costs in time and money exceed their profits they will leave of their own accord.
The current system (in PotBS) allows a player to accumulate hours on their lots - log in once a week (as an example) - use all those hours at once - place the resulting product on the market and log out in a very short space of time. This is perfect for a Gold Farmer. They can make lots of money in very little actual time spent in game.
Suspension of AH privilages and / or ability to access lots really puts a serious dent in this as the player can still play the game but cannot make large amounts of gold for only a short time in game.
Because they are not "banned" - they are not entitled to a chargeback.
Suddenly the Gold Farmer is trapped - he / she has to either spend hours in game doing missions in order to make gold or move on.
So, these people are finding exploits?
In that case - why are you banning them? Shouldn't you be paying them or thanking them for doing the job the Beta Testers were supposed to have done?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
"If I own land and tell you you can farm it..." so you are leasing me the land?
"You could not work a section and then sell the crop even to another worker..."
No. Sorry. If you are leasing me the land I am not one of your workers or your employee.
If you are talking about two farm workers selling crops to one another when they are simply employed to work the land - you would be correct - but that is nothing like the situation here.
The closest I can think of to compare this to a farm would be a "pick your own" type arrangement.
That is: Members of the public are allowed onto the land to pick their own produce (usually fruit in my experiance) - which they must pay for on exit from the premises.
Now, supposing you do this and two men come on to your land. One is lazy and in a hurry. He wants the fruit but does not want to pick it himself. So, he approaches the other man and offers to 'buy' the fruit that man has already picked.
Is he 'buying' the fruit? NO.
He is actually buying the labor and time - because when he leaves the premises you will weigh the fruit and charge him for it.
The transaction the two men did was between them and does not affect you in the slightest - nor does it effect any of your other customers.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Just thought I would bump this for more comment as FLS is cracking down on Goldsellers it would seem?
What I find interesting here is that the issue doesn't seem to be the Gold Farming itself - but players are upset by the Spam (Fair enough I suppose).
http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6316
In fact, there was even a thread where Rusty commented which once again referred to spam (Cannot find link now).
So, if it is the spamming which is the issue - why target the gold?
I have yet to see a convincing arguement against the trade of gold by itself?
In fact, I wonder if the FLS reaction might be doing more harm than good?
http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6479
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Ban a farmer and he will pop up again. You can never remove them.
But, we do have games where there is no money at all. Still people enjoy playing them.
Quest/mission rewards that all can get. Or free armor/weapons/items when you get a new level. For example look at FPS games that we have today. Some of them are online and have a system that give the player a new weapon (or outfit) when he/she get a new rank.
With that kind of system people can still enjoy (might even enjoy it more) quests/missions and people can still PvP and have fun.
Dev's can sit and work on new quests and rewards and not sit and hunt gold farmers.
Bad part is that you must make a new type of crafting system or not have it at all.
With this system it's impossible to have farmers.
Need me at FLS? Just gimme a call. ^^,
Played:
From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
Ah, the sense of deja vu all over again......
Wasn't it last January that a company by the name of Sigil announced that it was taking serious measures to ban gold farming from it's MMORPG Vanguard, rather than commiting resources to fixing parts of the game that were not working properly, and making customers happy?
I remember when my avatar in Vanguard got stuck under the game world, and customer service told me to just delete the character and start another one. Sigh.....what ever happened to commiting resources to resolving customer issues?
Ah, but I guess that banning gold farmers is a much more noble allocation of resources from a public relations standpoint. It worked well for Sigil/Vanguard didn't it? That must be why Flying Labs is following the Sigil business model.
banning gold buyers, even for 24 hours is a step in the right direction. Three-seven days would make the message a little more clear, but kudos for taking a stance.
There is many MMO companys that bans goldsellers.
So what is with the deja vu and following Sigil's business model?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
There is many MMO companys that bans goldsellers.
So what is with the deja vu and following Sigil's business model?
The game has not even been out a week. Serrvers are unstable, there are bugs to quash, and customer service is performing poorly. Banning gold farmers, and allocating customer service assets to take immediate action, as opposed to assisting subscribers, is the same direction Sigil went. I noted the customer service response time by a poster that reported gold seller spamming, as opposed to my customer service report response time, and can see the priority.
Priorities, my friend. Gold sellers are not paying subscribers, Flying Labs, in their own admission, does not collect dollar one off of them. However, I am a potential paying subscriber that they can collect dollar one from. However, when I turn in a customer service ticket regarding server connectability issues and request the restoration of a single durability point for a problem on their end they respond "Sorry, your fukked, thank you for the bug report, send us your $15/month, have a nice day".
Basically, they acknowledge they have server connectibility problems, but will do nothing to correct the problem it caused for the potential subsciber. They are unwilling to restore one durability point on a level 14 cutter (out of 4 durability points total), not a game imbalancing issue. Not really important to them, not really important to me, but it would go a long way toward customer satisfaction. Now, just think what their attitude would be about something that mattered caused by their game product malfunction?
Let me tell you a story about customer service. Apple Computer is the company. My son's $300 ipod stopped working, I took it into Apple, they checked it out and said the board was dead. They also showed me a dent on the back of the case. They said that kids put the ipods in their book bags at school, drop books into the book bags, and eventually one hits the ipod. The ipod case is thin, not durable, and does not protect the board inside, causing it to break. They told me that was not a warrantee issue, but that they would give me a brand new $300 ipod anyway. THAT is customer service!
Why did Apple do that? Because my son and two daughters use the same account, and Apple can see how much money they have spent on song downloads (Itunes cards are good birthday/christmas gifts). So, Apple knows that giving up a $300 ipod will continue the itunes income stream. Apple also knows that I will walk out of the store in shock that I received a new $300 ipod without a fight, and that I will tell my friends and coworkers (which I did). That is good PR for Apple, and brings them the new customers at the expense of the competition..
Now lets fast foreward to Flying Labs business model. During a launch period of unstable servers they are unwilling to give up a single durability point on a level 14 cutter to insure customer satisfaction, and their income steam. This is much, much less of a concession value on their part than a $300 ipod, it basically costs them nothing. Not good customer service at all....too inflexible, too think inside the box.
Sigil had the same problem, think inside the box. Quashing gold sellers and talking about their first expansion was their idea of PR, rather than resolving customer issues. It cost them dearly. I am absolutely amazed that, one year later, Flying Labs is modeling their customer service/PR after Sigil's, as opposed to modelling it after Apple computer. Deja Vu again.....
Pissing people off one customer at a time.......
Well, interestingly, the second thread I linked above has ceased to exist...
Still, I have been following this thread http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3462 with interest.
So again, what is the issue with Gold Farmers?
Is it just the chat spam?
Seriously. Can someone please give me a good argument how Gold Farmers "hurt" a game besides spamming the chat channels?
Let's see;
They spam the chat channels - OK so target the SPAM and abuse of chat!
They find exploits - OK so fix the exploits and say "Thank you for doing what we should have done in Beta"
They "create" inflation - isn't this a design issue? They are creating gold in game as any other player can do? If the economy suffers from inflation then isn't this a design problem?
I'm sorry - but you are not convincing me yet.
And I agree with olddaddy - wouldn't resources be better employed elsewhere?
ATM I read that server "rollbacks" and lockouts are costing players hundreds of thousands of Dubloons?
If anything, isn't this driving people toward dealing with Gold Farmers?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Have you ever played Monopoly?
How would you feel about playing a game of Monopoly with people who had a stash of extra $500 bills in their pocket that they would pull out to 'supplement' their normal income whenever they wanted. How would you feel about playing with those people? How would you feel about them, in general? Do you think it is right, fair, or good for the game for some people to have access to extra Monopoly money, while others do not?
Buying and selling gold is *against the rules* of the game (well, in most games, anyway - and those are the ones we are discussing). If you do it anyway, you are *breaking the rules* of the game. Breaking the rules is the definition of *cheating*. I don't appreciate or enjoy playing games with cheaters; neither do most other people.
There are numerous games out there designed with robust enough economies to survive gold selling just fine. There are even some that sell money directly from the game provider! But there are other games where this is not permitted behavior; where it is against the rules. And so most people follow the rules, giving an edge to cheaters. This is not right, or fair. This is my primary personal objection.
More complex, you have to delve into the concepts of economy in the virtual world. They're pretty weak structures, in general, and easily upset at the best of times. However, they are usually maintained in relative balance by a faucet-drain approach. Players go get money (faucet) from questing and looting; the game then forces them to spend about the same amount as they have earned on upkeep, new gear, etc (drain). The closer in balance these two forces are in a "standard MMO economy" (that is, a DikuMUD style like WOW/EQ/POTBS) the longer the economy will remain stable.
Gold farmers upset this by rushing to a level and then stabilizing there; since to level farther would require them to spend as much gold as they make (or close), they stabilize at one point, and begin farming that level of mob. Thus each gold farmer becomes a faucet without a drain - their income is extra money input which the economy was not designed to support. That money flows around to players (who buy it), who then have more money ingame - which lets them sell things on auction a bit cheaper, perhaps, or give away a few items to newbies who they might not have been able to before. It might let them undercut non-cheating crafters to cut them out of the market completely. The net result is the devaluing of ALL items in the game (or close to all) by a small amount each time gold is sold, instead of being used.
The annoyance factor is not without note as well. If gold farmers stuck to instances, it would be one thing. In general, they do not, and instead locate and farm the best moneymaking areas - over and over - often to a level that prevents other players from using the spot efficiently. Nonstop. Always - 24/7. It's annoying.
The /tells are even worse. Designers are trying to wrack their brains for ways around THAT little mess right now... The real flaw is the free accounts, of course, but those free accounts net huge returns in cash. The answers I've heard bandied around range from limiting free accounts per IP address per month; or requiring a credit card for a free account, and not allowing more than one free account per card; or turning off /tells on free accounts; or limiting the number of /tells per hour from free accounts (usually coupled with limiting # of free accounts somehow, as mentioned above... There are not really any *great* solutions - so long as you have free accounts, you're going to have issues with spammers, most likely. Doesn't make me any happier to have to listen to their garbage.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
I kind of agree with Gyrus. Gold Farming is teh result of bad design. People who suggest it causes inflation apparently haven't yet figured out that most video games don't actually have an economy. IN a real economy, there is a FINITE amount of money in circulation. If more is introduced into circulation, the value of each individual note goes down.
In a lot of these video games, money is CONSTANTLY being produced from thin air. Inflation is going to happen regardless of Gold Farming because the entire system is forcing it by not limiting the amount of money inside it. In a perfect world, the would be very finite amounts of "gold". That would create a true economy, where this set amount got passed around from vendor to vendor and player to player. Eventually, you'd find a situation very similar to the world we see now...where some people would be very well off and others would never be.
But as long as these games still introduce money into the system from thin air....ingame economy will just never exist.
Interesting you should mention Monopoly. Sadly for you I have done some serious analysis of Monopoly in the past (when I was really into game design)...
Monopoly actually has a couple of things in common with todays MMOs.
Do you know that when it was first shown to Parker it had "52 design flaws"?
http://www.hasbro.com/games/kid-games/monopoly/default.cfm?page=History/history
And Monopoly does actually suffer from inflation in the same way as MMOs and for the same reason:
PASS GO - COLLECT $200.
Also, due to Monopoly's design the game can rapidly stalemate if players DON'T agree to trade properties "off the board" via negotiation... oh oh... what's that then? Starting to look a lot like Gold Farming?
{FWIW Junior Monopoly is actually a better game (in terms of game design) IMHO.}
As for the rest of your post: As for it being "against the rules" - OK fair point - but WHY?
Again we come back to weaknesses in the virtual economies.
It causes inflation? No, being able to endlessly produce money causes inflation.
You sum it up nicely with the faucet and drain analogy.
You again mention issues which fall back on game design and spamming of chat channels.
So once again, what is the issue here. If it's the chat spam - target that.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
The game has not even been out a week.
Exactly...
Serrvers are unstable, there are bugs to quash, and customer service is performing poorly.
Have you asked those that have used customer service and recieved it well or are you only looking at those that have issues with it and judge it by that. For your Apple example, do you think they only have positive reviews about their customer service.
Banning gold farmers, and allocating customer service assets to take immediate action, as opposed to assisting subscribers, is the same direction Sigil went.
They are assisting subscribers, ofcourse they why wouldn't they.
I noted the customer service response time by a poster that reported gold seller spamming, as opposed to my customer service report response time, and can see the priority.
I have had response time withing the hour and got that issue fixed withing the hour. The reason that the gold spam was responded to can be that it is easier, and faster, to fix.
But still even though your issue had longer response time does not equal that they don't care. Your issue could be something that they have to think and discuss about first.
Priorities, my friend. Gold sellers are not paying subscribers, Flying Labs, in their own admission, does not collect dollar one off of them. Basically, they acknowledge they have server connectibility problems, but will do nothing to correct the problem it caused for the potential subsciber. They are unwilling to restore one durability point on a level 14 cutter (out of 4 durability points total), not a game imbalancing issue.
Which is not that strange, sorry for your loss, but if they would start to do that it could be abused in the end. In which case it is better to keep a straigth line from starters.
They told me that was not a warrantee issue, but that they would give me a brand new $300 ipod anyway. THAT is customer service!
Awfully nice of them. So if I buy cheap broken Ipods on ebay I can go and get a new one, not likely.
There is something called "goodwill" but that is not used regurarly.
That is good PR for Apple, and brings them the new customers at the expense of the competition..
SOE offered me 1½ months free subscription even though they didn't need to, is that the same as expecting them to do it to all, no.
Pissing people off one customer at a time.......
You are assuming that FLS would not care about their customer based on that they did not help you. Sorry but that is black/white thinking and is in any cases wrong.
Your story could be used with any company, not only MMO's, out there.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
If it is against the rules, it is cheating. Cheaters SHOULD be barred from playing the game. I'm not arguing here whether it *should be* against the rules or not - but it is, and if it is, then banning those players is the right thing to do.
Yes, virtual economies are generally weak and easily abused. So rules are set into place to help prevent that sort of abuse. People who break those rules for profit are hurting every player.
Should the devs work at developing a better economic model? Perhaps. But should the players feel like they are being ethical cheating at the game because there is a flaw in the design? I would think not.
Yes, those economies will eventually run into trouble anyway, even without gold farmers. But it will happen much, much faster with them.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com