Preferred end game?

Xanrae

This is something I've always been wondering.

For any other part of an MMO, there is usually a 'right' way to do it and an 'easy' way to do it. You can actually fix things like levelling speed at the rate desired by the most players (or most desired by the players). For things like character customisation, more is always better and less saves money. And for level design and  the like, just making levels is considered good enough, but you could go wild with procedural content and such if you have the technology.

But the end-game - a make or break thing - is less black and white.

 

* You don't want the players to feel like they are grinding, yet you don't want to make the game so long that newbies can no longer catch up, never mind development costs.

* Endgame content needs to be have enough meat to it to keep people playing, but you don't want the players to feel like they have to rush to max level asap because that's where the real game is.

 

So far, I have seen grinding for character improvement, PvP, and politicking as endgames. They all have their flaws, but I have a hard time thinking of an alternative option.

I am not a game developer (disclaimer: at the time of writing), but this is $%£ keeping me awake at night. What kind of endgame do you prefer? How would you do it if you were given 10 million bucks, a deadline twenty years away and a team of programmers who will obey your wishes to the letter? Let this be a poll!

Thanks!

 

pussaykat

For me, endgame in WoW has been running guildies through various instance. The whole overpowered aspect of it when visiting lowbie areas.

Xanrae

A future game developer could hardly make 'rushing lowbies' the preferred endgame, though.

pussaykat

I was not aware this was an issue

Czzarre

For me, the end game of any MMORPG that I will stick with for the long term must have viable PvP. To me, PVE raiding is basically the same repetative strategies against the same bosses over and over again...just with different people. PvP is much more dynamic, changing with players, enviornments and gear.

Torrential

vajuras

I'm a big fan of FPS games which I feel have clearly superior character advancement systems in many ways

- There is "no" endgame. Veterans are merely more diverse.

So, if I designed an MMO the journey would never end. If you enjoy questing you can keep on questing and unlocking new abilities. If you enjoy PVP then you can kill others from day #1 to infinity++++++++++++++++

pussaykat

Questing to infinity would mean farming a few mish because there is no such thing as endless content.

Pynda

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Originally posted by Xanrae
...yet you don't want to make the game so long that newbies can no longer catch up, never mind development costs.

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I see this as the least of the problems, and I prefer MMORPGs where there is always at least some character development left to do. If devs start eliminating major elements of play in endgame then that's when I start to lose interest. As for newbs eventually catching up, screw'em. If you can't learn to have fun with wherever you happen to be at in a MMORPG, then you shouldn't be playing them. This complaint is like saying, oh, I'm unsatisfied in life because I can't be a rock star or the President of the United States.

So for me - something like Asheron's Call (essentially no level cap and never ending challenge/variety) equaled a good endgame. That is, it actually had no endgame at all. Something like WoW's endgame - never progressing your character any farther except through a few items, and endlessly grinding two or three instances or doing pointless PvP, equaled bad.

vajuras

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Originally posted by pussaykat
Questing to infinity would mean farming a few mish because there is no such thing as endless content.

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True, but some of us enjoy the comradie of our guild. I personally loved helping the newbs in our guild level up in City of Heroes even though I didnt gain any XP. I like doing things casually wit others whether that mean questing or killin'

Vincenz

Honestly, and I'm sure this will irritate power gamers to no end, but regardless...

 

I wish players would stop expecting an MMO to deliver something interesting to do 100+ hours a month for years on end at the rate of a subscription.

 

it's never...going...to happen.

 

Play games like games, which isn't 3-4 hours a day, you won't worry about end game because you won't outpace development.

vajuras

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Originally posted by Vincenz
Honestly, and I'm sure this will irritate power gamers to no end, but regardless...
 
I wish players would stop expecting an MMO to deliver something interesting to do 100+ hours a month for years on end at the rate of a subscription.
 
it's never...going...to happen.
 
Play games like games, which isn't 3-4 hours a day, you won't worry about end game because you won't outpace development.

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I wonder why we cant expect it when games like Warcraft 3 is still on my hard drive. Other day was thinking bout picking up Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana again too heh

let's not even bring up how much I've played UT alone. No way it had as much content as many of these mmos

Vincenz

Originally posted by vajuras


 

Originally posted by Vincenz

Honestly, and I'm sure this will irritate power gamers to no end, but regardless...

 

I wish players would stop expecting an MMO to deliver something interesting to do 100+ hours a month for years on end at the rate of a subscription.

 

it's never...going...to happen.

 

Play games like games, which isn't 3-4 hours a day, you won't worry about end game because you won't outpace development.

 

I wonder why we cant expect it when games like Warcraft 3 is still on my hard drive. Other day was thinking bout picking up Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana again too heh

let's not even bring up how much I've played UT alone. No way it had as much content as many of these mmos

Well, if you've been playing Warcraft 3 100 hours a month for the last couple years, you should send them a serious check, IMO.  A single game is not meant to occupy FIVE THOUSAND HOURS A YEAR of entertainment for 200 bucks, IMO. 

pussaykat

Meh, some ppl don't have a life...

I know i don't, don't start getting ideas.

Xanrae

Even if an MMO isn't 'meant' to last forever, this should be the goal to strive for. If you want to settle for less, might as well buy a Playbox and get Bioshock.

Some MMOs fail because they suck, others because they misjudge their target demographic. Many fall short because the endgame is a mish-mash of metagame crap and repetition (WoW honour points are a prime example). Do we want the next generation of games to be good or not?

Vincenz

Originally posted by pussaykat


Meh, some ppl don't have a life...
I know i don't, don't start getting ideas.

LOL!  Hey, I spend too much time on games too...I just don't bother to get upset if I outplay them is all

pussaykat

Thing is, when i outplay them i can only stare at walls for so long...

It would really help if i was beeing objective about the games i play.

sh4dowst4lkr

It's difficult to end a game, let alone do it well, but I believe an ending should be epic but leave the door for expanding so sorta like its over but you can picture what will happen next.

Still though, Halo 3's ending pissed me off, man for like a week I was like wtf? Is that it? but there was an open ending...

davcha

I recall an expression oftenly used during discussions about EQ (and other mmos) : "pain is fun".

Basically, the core idea behind this expression is : it's fun when you are rewarded for a big and painful effort. And the feeling of accomplishment it gives you, leads you to continue the "game", and start the next painful activity, because you know you'll be happy once you finally achieve this activity.

 

Imho, "pain is fun" is really good..... for people who havent kept in mind that what they are currently playing are supposed to be games.

All that "pain is fun" concept leads players to create "military guilds", to take the game way too seriously, to whine about class imbalances, to cheat to get rewards more easily and more quickly. All that because "pain is fun" can only work if there is a reward at the end of the pain.

"Endgame" is a consequence of this "pain is fun" concept.

In mmorpg, endgame... Would you play WoW if all the content was comparable to level 1 content ? Think about it few minutes, then ask yourself : is there really a big difference between the core concepts of level 1 and endgame in WoW (or other mmo like this one, based on "pain is fun") ?

 

 

The opposite of this kind of games are "fun is fun" games. When i first used this expression on an EQ board, people thought i was saying that everything should be ultra-easy and that i should be rewarded immediately with highest level character fully epicced, just for creating a toon.

Well... First, i'd like to say that many many players enjoy PTRs of WoW when premades are available. This ,alone, should give some clues to many people.

Then, secondly, i'd like to highlight the funny fact that players are so used to the "pain is fun" concept, developpers, mmo editors, ... did such an awesome job, that players really think that "pain is fun" is the only available - or at least the best - way to create a game.

But when you think about it.... You can play chess indefinitely, and pretty much never get bored. You can play go the same way, and go's rules are even more simple than chess' rules. Chess, go, card games, trivial pursuit, etc... In these games, the reward and the act of playing the game are the exact same thing. There's no need for additional rewards at the end, since the game itself is enjoyable enough : the game itself is the reward.

pussaykat

Did you ever get the feeling that final fantasy 6 or chrono trigger from the snes was better than all the mmog out there? i think it's because those games are balanced for fun and rewarding time spent playing. Lots of rewards in that game, new skills, level ups, cinematics.

MMOG are sometimes too focused on making money by stretching the time ppl need to be online to reach the end of content. How many times have you finished ff6 or chrono trigger vs the times you leveled a toon to endgame? If the journey is fun and rewarding, odds are ppl will do it again. Mashed potatoes classes where everyone has buff, everyone has cc and everyone is the same kinna kills that.

davcha

Originally posted by pussaykat


Did you ever get the feeling that final fantasy 6 or chrono trigger from the snes was better than all the mmog out there? i think it's because those games are balanced for fun and rewarding time spent playing. Lots of rewards in that game, new skills, level ups, cinematics.
MMOG are sometimes too focused on making money by stretching the time ppl need to be online to reach the end of content. How many times have you finished ff6 or chrono trigger vs the times you leveled a toon to endgame? If the journey is fun and rewarding, odds are ppl will do it again. Mashed potatoes classes where everyone has buff, everyone has cc and everyone is the same kinna kills that.

That's basically exactly what i said in my post =p

pussaykat

Ya, i kinna thought i agreed :P

Vincenz

I don't think you can ever expect the same, completely immersed and engaged experience from an MMO that you've gotten from great SP RPG titles.  It's just not realistic.  Hell, I had more fun playing KOTOR II the last few weeks than I have in my MMO, and it's not even that good of a game.  But again, I don't play KOTOR II for a couple years obviously, and most importantly I play it alone...with the mechanics of the game and the story...not with anyone else to compete with or annoy me.

JarredStone

Endgames I've personally been through mainly consisted of; tons of raiding, tons of pvp or, guess what, no endgame at all.

 

Personally I enjoy MMO's who don't *really* have an endgame to it, sandbox style mmo's. Eve online comes to mind, sure you can, after four - five some years, acquire almost every skill, ship, whatever, but the game doesn't really have a set endgame. 0.0 alliance wars is the closest to endgame you really get, but almost anyone can join and contribute, a fresh off the mill newbie or a hardened veteran. Yet, it's a huge aspect of the game and cannot be compared to say, WoW's endless raids for the best purple gear out there.

Complete freedom throughout the game is the "endgame" I look for

x_rast_x

I dislike the concept of end-games.  To me, it means the devs failed to anticipate someone (or someones) might do it all and see it all and now they have to scramble to make some grindtastic content to keep them busy.

After a period of 'learning the ropes', the gameplay of an MMO should stay roughly the same, or if it does change, should do so gradually and not in a sudden 'OMG you are max level, now you can play this kind of the same but totally different game now!'

Kyerna

No 'endgame' for me whatsoever; I hate forcefully being shut out to access gamefeatures based on level or skill requirements. The possibilities open to me when I start out as a player should just be the same as for vet if I choose to access them. It goes without saying it would be harder to cope with when starting out, but I should at least have the possiblity to access all features.

Vrazule

I'll take any kind of end game that doesn't have to do with puking raiding.