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Understanding & Reconciliation in the Post WoW Era
Timberwolf0
Member Posts: 424
Greetings and salutations friends.
I write today to address a serious issue which I have found cropping up repeatedly on the mmorpg boards. Firstly, and in the interest of full disclosure, let me say that the first MMO I ever played was DAoC, and I have never played World of Warcraft. That said, I cannot understand the hatred and venom so many people here direct towards WoW players. It seems like most anyone who posts about wow or their past experiences in wow and how they relate to a current issue are immediately set upon and/or flamed.
This post is a call for understanding. We can't blame them if they started MMO's with WoW, indeed WoW popularized the whole MMO genre to a much greater degree and brought in more people to the market which means more money coming in and hopefully better games as a result. Don't blame people just because they started with WoW; it's mindlessly prejudiced to do so.
Everyone had that first MMO they played, whether it was Everquest, Anarchy Online, DAoC or something else, we all have that first mmo sitting in our pasts like an ex girlfriend or boyfriend, and inevitably we have all been heavily shaped by that first interaction. So please, the next time a person references wow or uses it, remember to be understanding.
Comments
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I'm curious -- why isn't WoW on your "played" list, especially considering that you fully acknowledge its importance and influence?
I simply haven't had the time. I know if I started playing I'd probably sink too much time into it so I choose not to for now.
I would like to add that people play WOW not necessarily because that is the only one they have encountered.
In fact, I started with Kingdom of Drakkar (a small small game with may be hundreds of accounts) which I bet no one has ever heard of. I beta-tested both UO & EQ and played EQ since its release for a few years.
But at the end, i chose WOW because it is casual friendly. I am pretty seasoned in MMORPG but still, I have a life (wife, kids + job) and only have little time. Plus, MMORPG is entertainment for me. I don't want extra stress in my entertainment. Thus, the UO PvP turned me off immediately (never subscribe beyond beta) and the camping of EQ is just NOT fun.
WOW is successful because it makes grinding (quest-based) casual friend and FUN.
Honestly, I think some of the frustration with the WoW phenomenon is that it became a financial gauge for other games success or failure, regardless of how good a game might actually be.
"You only have 100,000 subscribers???...that game must suxxors!!!"
Even worse, many "good games" that were being fully enjoyed by subscribers have been altered to systems and ideas to "WoW-ify" them in attempt to chase those kind of numbers.
Personally, however, I get WoW's success...I just don't particularly like the game.
MMO players are very defensive about their games.
And the honest to god truth is that WoW is a major threat to every fantasy based MMO out there for many different reasons.
As some mentioned before game developers are driven by $ and they see WoW's success with the dumbed-down leveling, cartoonish art & casual game play and well they copy that formula in an attempt to get a few millions subscribers.
Which is stupid. The MMO market needs diversity so that it can cater to the billions of different tastes in one way or another.
The logic should be:
WoW is loot-centric with arena pvp?
Well than I am going to make a open pvp, skill based game with a whole different artistic style to get those people who don't like wow.
Unfortunately that is not the case and those that have that logic lack the talent to pump out a semi-decent title.
Some other reasons WoW is a threat:
A lot of those other people who play those other games and hate it lost a lot of friends/guild members to wow.
Those people are who defensive of their games are jealous of its success and probably feel rejected as funny as that sounds. It's the whole notion that your tastes aren't as cool as the billion people who play WoW's taste so the companies don't care about you.
I could probably brainstorm random reasons all day but my boss is giving me weird looks and he may come over here and look at what I am typing so quickly.
Personally speaking a lot of WoW players are just nice friendly people.. It's the ones that come into forums and even in general channels within a game and generally spout abuse about how the game 'sucks' and how WoW is always better..
It's just not on, but many seem it perfectly normal to try and trash a game that isn't WoW, comparisions i can deal with, but blantly going out and upsetting a player base and try and 'take down' an up and comming game is just not fair.. I understand being defencive to your favourate game but going out and being agressive to a non-WoW game, and finding excuses to bash it EVEN within it's own walls feels very gameist..
I know this happened before WoW but post Wow this seems to be on the rise... and consequintly this is why players bash WoW, it's blacklash from those players set out to destroy anything not WoW.. I just wish those type of people would just stay in there own games if it's so 'perfect' to them, theres no need to bash a game purly on the basis it's not your top game, which seems to happen with a lot of WoW players, I wonder what would happen to them if WoW suddenly closed on them? Would they stop playing or just give up on life as 'WoW is life' if they act as they do...?
Game devs shouldn't really try to 'clone WoW' as it just fuels the flames, but then it's hard not to as Blizzard are known for taking any idea and reformatting into their games just to keep on top of things, which isn't a bad busness thing, it's just making it impossible to make a MMO without those WoW L33Test comming at it with pitch forks.. Take WAR for example even tho it's got some very good fresh ideas to the indrustry it's currently being hacked to death by those players as the imagery looks the same and screams of 'don't play this they ripped off WoW' but thats due to an old history and the IPs are related..
I question what do these gamers want? If you take out everything that WoW has from your fantasy MMO either way it'll just be a chat room and nothing much left..
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
They made it, Ultima Online. It went down in flames. Open PvP kills games dead. Ultima Online is now used as a cautionary example of how gangs of anti-social teenagers can drive a game into obscurity by making the game unplayable.More people have quit WoW in the past few years than have ever played MMOs before. The gangs of "After WoW" players expect the same level of quality and fun, and no game out now can deliver it. This results in a lot of grousing and shouts of "Go back to WoW!"
I appreciate the tone and the message of the OP, but I find these threads to be very arrogant. In one fell swoop people are belittling and stereotype the largest MMO community . As if annoying people didn't exist in other games, give me a break.
The WoW community isn't as bad as people paint it, when I played I only encountered chat channel annoyance when I was in Goldshire or The Barrens. Most people I met in the game were just fine. The judgement coming from other players is unreasonable, but then I'd be a fool to expect reason to actually exist on a forum.
You know, I never even played UO, but I remember hearing stories of kids dragging tables or benches or something into an area that blocked all the brand new players in a little spot so they could just grief them endlessly
You know, I never even played UO, but I remember hearing stories of kids dragging tables or benches or something into an area that blocked all the brand new players in a little spot so they could just grief them endlessly
Classic UO was a nightmare compared to anything on the market today. It would be laughed out of the marketplace if anyone tried to release such a non-game nowadays.
All the people that play WoW right now will see how bad that game was for the industry after they out grow that game and look for another.
HOGG4LIFE
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Look at it this way, on the "bad WoW'ers"...
If every MMO has 2-3% of their community who are absolute tools, fortunately that's only 2-6 thousand people for most games total.
If WoW has 2-3% of their community who are absolute tools, that's gonna be 2-6 HUNDRED thousand people total...
Now, if there's a few hundred thousand WoW tools running around...
certainly increases the chance that people are gonna have contact with them, no?
EDIT: in fact, extend those numbers and say that only 1% of the absolute tools from each game actually come to MMORPG.com...
so that means your average MMO has what, 20-60 of them here...
WoW, however, would have SEVERAL THOUSAND OF THEM!
Thing is, it seems obvious WoW has caught the majority as far as tastes go. Answer me this, why would developers and/or producers want to cater to the tastes of the minority? It just doesn't make good business sense. There are niche games out there, but as a general rule, you want to appeal to as many people as possible, not "that group that likes player looting and encouraged spawn camping to cleanse the n00bs."
Wow great responses people thanks for discussing this issue. To the person who posted about my tone being condescending I'm sorry; I didn't mean to come off that way, just trying to promote a little understanding between communities.
edit: decided my post was a lil hostile in tone after reading sensible replies.
but i think the dreaded casual large audience that WoW has makes it feel like their 'special exclusive club' of niche players is getting invaded. oh noez!
You have to understand that WoW did nothing pioneering with gameplay. Small zoned areas, extremely cookie cutter characters, instances, no world events etc. etc.. So now you've got millions of new people to the mmorpg community.
This throng of new people to the community has boosted WoW as doing things the right way when it's really only doing things the way that it has been done nearly the whole MMORPG time. WoW being so successful with old technology that the rest of the MMORPG world was trying to move on from really is a huge step backwards. Now the industry is set at something that many veteran MMORPG'ers consider to be extremely limiting and outdated.
IMHO wow was only partially successful because of it's good gameplay. Most of WoW's success comes from the blizzard name, and then the subsequent popularity of the game. Many people play wow only because their friends do, they are not true MMORPG'ers.
My personal vitriol towards wow comes into play when every new MMORPG is measured against wows gameplay. I feel the game play was a huge step in the reverse direction and every major mmorpg to hit the market has been built in the standard "WoW" style. That is one more thing I dislike, WoW gets a lot of credit for that setup and they were NOWHERE near the first to use it.
Just my opinion there.
Although I agree with the sentiment. People get very atached to the characters they have created in the games. In my experience, players just have a hard time of "Letting Go". Hatred for SOE for things they did back in EQ1, Hatred of WoW changing the player demographics, Hatred of SWG since the NGE...Those things just stick with some and fester. IN thier defense however, we now have an overabundance of MMORPGs on the market and not enough money or time to dedicate. The game history of the developing company plays a BIG part in our decision.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Quote:
No one is talking about In Game Chat Channels they're talking about the annoying behavior of some very vocal minority from WoW that seem to pop up everywhere. Look fanbois are fanbois but WoW fanbois are usually the worst and the most ignorant. Personally I can't stand ignorant troll fanbois of any game but WoW just gets my ire because they tend to be the worst. I dont hate WoW but I am turned off by rather large chunks of their community. Most old school MMOers wouldn't have a problem with WoW's community if the fanboy trolls weren't the most prominant example that shows up on boards like this one.
Interesting, but to be honest I don't see it. The rabid WoW fanbois don't seem to be any less annoying then the hardcore pvp'rs, old school UO/Eq1 players, the pre-CU SWG players, or any one else that looses perspective over a game. It's all the same to me. If you judge a community by something as trivial as forums then you are missing the bigger picture, very few players actually participate actively on forums. If I was to play games based solely on what I found in forums, then I would never play another game again.
Wow brought shooter fans and kiddies to the MMO genre, I don't think we need them. Hopefully the wowers stay in wow for ever
What does it matter if nothing was pioneered? Very little has been pioneered in most game genres, it doesn't devalue the games that come out.
Blizzard did alot of things right where they could just as easily have done alot of things wrong. Saying they just copied other games doesn't do it justice. If it were that easy ALL games would be that good. But its not like that. Alot of games screwed up in so many ways. wow didn't screw up. Don't fault them for that.
Several times i was in wow asking myself, how come other games didn't do that, several seemingly obvious things that other games didn't do but should have.
I predict a lot of games will follow wow and do poorly because they don't copy the good decisions wow made.
WoW brought in large amounts of players who never played MMOs or even computer games. From my experience quite a few of the 'kiddies' came with their parents. As for people acting like children, I've seen that in all the MMOs I've played.
Funny, this is exactly the opposite of what the OP wanted.WoW brought in large amounts of players who never played MMOs or even computer games. From my experience quite a few of the 'kiddies' came with their parents. As for people acting like children, I've seen that in all the MMOs I've played.
Exactly...and by substantially broadening the overall base of mmo-players, and investor dollars as a result...guess what, the MMO you are playing right now may have been created as a result, indirectly, of WoW's success...and those shooter fans and kiddies suddenly being willing to spend money.
p.s Before you get on a high horse about how immature the WoW community is, I'd say for every single immature WoWster posting, there's 15-20 anti-WoW "kiddies" invading every thread on the board.
This is absolutely the most ignorant thing I have EVER heard. Children have been in EVERY MMO I've ever played...long before the days of WoW. So shove off. WoW did not "appeal" to kiddies, kiddies already frequented the Griefing games like UO for a long time. WoW appealed to the adults, of which whom do not have the TIME to play standard grindfest, forced grouping, MMO's.
It brought players into the market that simply could not be here before. And....you know what? We DO need those players. You people speak of a stale market...do you have ANY ideal how stale this market was before? Of the possible games there were simply not that many...and the vast majority were grindfest games that come from over seas. The fact is...the Sandbox style games and other, more reaching, titles could not truely thrive because the player pool was very small and limited.
This genre now has a very vast player pool, all WoW did was show the industry what standards it must meet to make use of them. That standard is simply this:
Let the overworked adults be able to accomplish things without having to invest 8 hours of gameplay. Simple as that. Adults do not want to spend 2 of their possible 3 hours trying to find a group. Some of them play in off hours, some don't even have 3 hours. At the end of the day, WoW earned its american playerbase by giving people who have very little time something very fun to do. This includes factory workers who have 10-12 hour days some weeks. It includes celebrities who have to spend most of their day in photo shoots and PR. it includes the mother of 3 who can only play in the couple of hours she gets after her kids go to bed.
Nothing makes me seethe with anger more than suggesting WoW brought "kiddies" into the market. Just how stupid does one have to be to actually THINK that? Oh yes....this market was SOOOO kid free before WoW. Obviously kids just weren't playing video games before WoW...no siree....not at all. Moron,
I played WOW for a couple of months only, it wasnt my pair of shoes for some reasons. The longest time I spent in Eq2, SWG and CoH, so I am really no WOW fanboy.
The said, I am quite sure WOW is a hallmark of change in MMOs. I know there are those who say WOW is just casual and a children game, but I dont think that realistic analysis would really support this concept. WOW has however changed some concepts people thought that would be unchangable, concepts to which some hold like religious tenets, and they all come down to one idea: the idea that MMO playing necessarily is based upon creating time-sinks, and the longer a time-sink is the more "difficult" or "hardcore" a MMO is regarded.
Blizzard has revealed this is a misconception, and they streamlined their MMO by eradicating as many un-fun timesinks as possible wihtout making it a mere run-through. People often claim WOW is too casual because you can max level in this and that time-span. The problem of such a calculation is, if you are expert you *can* reach max level in a similar short time in ANY MMO. Its just no valid measure. A much more interesting measure which seperates pre-WOW to WOW-era MMOs is: how much time do you WAIT and do nothing or nothing which is fun.
One of the WOW devs once said, when asked how did they design WOW, he answered, they basically looked at EVERY single part and asked themselves if that was fun to do, and if the answer as No, it was out. The pre-WOW era MMOs are still full of such things most (potential) players regards as non-fun, because those pre-WOW devs often just are not able to think out of the box of the well trodden and known path. One example that stands for many: WOW popularized the quest symbol over an NPCs head. SInce WOW all other MMO started to adapt this. I recall when EQ2 started, it was without such symbols, and when WOW was so successfull, they adapted this, as did SWG and many other MMOs. Blizzard just took existing ideas, brought the best together and started to think out of the box.
If we understand how WOW defined "Second Gen" MMO, we may get an idea what would make a "Third Gen" MMO: they would have to improve existing concepts by thinking out of the box of the known. In that way attempts like Vanguard where destined to fail, because essentially VG tried to turn back the clock of progress WOW brought to pre-WOW. One idea which I see as GREAT potential of advancement is seen in LOTRO: here you dont just listen to a NPC telling you a story, you ARE INSIDE a story. Often those quests, especially the instanced ends of story-arcs make you part of a story going on around you. It really expands the static-world feeling which so add to the sterile feeling of MMO worlds (compared to single player RPGs). The option to make you part of a story and give you more the feeling to impact the game world is a potential still not fully used. The entire part of storytelling and events.
Another part I dont see funlly realized is the living world aspect. MMO worlds are still very stagnant and dont ever change. NPCs have their place and stand there every day and year of the game. They dont even have daily schedules or changes by the proceeding of some game-world history. I am sure that is difficult to implement, but the first to achieve this will have a good chance to dethrone WOW, I think. A part of making a living world is adding more than just combat professions, as the SWG entertainers did. Back in the old days, when there were many entertainers and all cantinas where full of bands and dances and gigs, and some player cities where really buzzing centres, it added a LOT of live to the game world, which entirely NPC driven worlds can never have. Insofar I am quite surprised why this sector of gaming never was used again. There are many ways how a post-WOW MMO gaming can be, however I dont see any of the current MMOs in the making really promise to be worthy of the title "Third Gen MMO" in the sense of making another big step ahead.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert