Of course that makes sense, but when you desperately need staff and you can't be sure who is abusing their powers and who isn't what would you do?
I'll tell you right now every MMO with GM or counselor types in their game either 1)don't give them any abusable powers thereby making them mostly useless except for linking to troubleshooting websites or 2)suffer from abusers.
So are you and like 3 guys who have time that you can trust going to fly around like a bunch of fairies tapping your wand on the heads of people who need XP rewards?
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Originally posted by Guintu Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by Guintu
Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by Guintu Originally posted by vajuras
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb. Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do. I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better. In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room. Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess.... I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests. I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
you misunderstand, skill-based RPG has nothing to do with player-skill driven games (like CoD4) besides minor similarities (like open character development where one avatar has the potential to unlock any skill)
Skill-based RPGs are games like Ultima Online and some upcoming titles where skills are improved through use.
UO was a sandbox at launch where there were no grouping mechanisms, full looting, no barriers, no quests, etc. Imagine that. Imagine not even having global chat. You had to use outside programs to communicate with others over long distances
Imagine a world where as soon as you walk out of a village you could get ganked and stripped clean. Your corpse would be opened up like a mob and you'd watch in horror as your killers take it all. They risked nothing, but you lost it all
Also imagine all the pkers earning 'red' outlaw status. Then it was blue (pve'ers) vs reds. Sure some blues stood up and fought but they cant be online to enforce justice 24/7
Alas, I have went off tangent. But yeah, skill-based RPGs and player skill are two different concepts....
Forget I mentioned CoD4. Was only trying to explain in vain that earning XP can be fun. Grinding can be fun, depending on the context
Originally posted by nariusseldon I don't think you can make a MMORPG without grinding. I haven't seen one yet. The trick is to make grinding FUN and WOW's approach is a step in the right direction.
Well, the grind never ends in WoW. I would say Guild Wars is a step in the right direction. But then again, its also a step in the wrong direction in other areas I do not care to get into (cause I still plan to play it agan sometime so it would be silly for me to bash it heh)
on the other hand WoW was a step in the right direction. At least they gave us a PVP server, albeit, it wasnt really PVP at launch but more of a fight to survive lol. But that at least made PVE much more interesting for us- added a bit of dynamics to a static world where nothing ever changed....
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills
There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought
Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
you misunderstand, skill-based RPG has nothing to do with player-skill driven games (like CoD4) besides minor similarities (like open character development where one avatar has the potential to unlock any skill)
Skill-based RPGs are games like Ultima Online and some upcoming titles where skills are improved through use.
UO was a sandbox at launch where there were no grouping mechanisms, full looting, no barriers, no quests, etc. Imagine that. Imagine not even having global chat. You had to use outside programs to communicate with others over long distances
Imagine a world where as soon as you walk out of a village you could get ganked and stripped clean. Your corpse would be opened up like a mob and you'd watch in horror as your killers take it all. They risked nothing, but you lost it all
Also imagine all the pkers earning 'red' outlaw status. Then it was blue (pve'ers) vs reds. Sure some blues stood up and fought but they cant be online to enforce justice 24/7
Alas, I have went off tangent. But yeah, skill-based RPGs and player skill are two different concepts....
Forget I mentioned CoD4. Was only trying to explain in vain that earning XP can be fun. Grinding can be fun, depending on the context
Ok I understand where you're coming from now. That would be interesting but at the same time I'm not sure if I would get into it. I always hated games where noobs got killed by level 100's just because some guy with a big ego and a little penis wanted to be big man on campus. Now if you were able to level to a specific level then go into something like that when you know what your doing and you're ready then thats another story.
well, i dont know if any of u guys ever heard of a game called gunz, but it has a unique style of lvling, a noob could take out a veteran with alot of practice ( yes, im talking bout me, MAN was i feeling like big man on campus ) it didnt matter if u a noob or not, it only mattered if u can point and shoot faster than the opponent could, hell i was lvl one wasting lvl 14 and 15's . now if u played that game u would understand that it was a truly great idea.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
There needs to be more player influence on the world. Territories need need to change control and can be developed or destroyed by the faction that holds it. Each territory should have specific resources that benefit the holder. Economy, Politics, Crafting, so on need to play a bigger part of the big picture. Using fantasy Genre for example, Elves play for the good of Elves, Humans for Humans, so on and so forth. Do away with good vs evil and create more race focus. Within each race there could be good, neutral, evil all based on each players actions. Alliances could be made not only between races, but between guilds within each race. One thing I enjoyed about DAOC was the three faction style, but it left me just wanting more to the game.
Imagine war councils, diplomats, and Trade skills intertwined into the skill system. How cool would it be to make alliies with NPC races through trade and diplomacy? A human contingent makes a pack with Goblins in an effort to take control of a territory and opposing factions can try and get them to forsake the treaty through Diplomacy or brute submission. Guilds have various options they can try to seize control of government and implement some rule set for that race. There could be revolt if the rules displease the masses. Something like this would keep my attention and change the game from grind to strategy and purpose.
To follow up what Fansede said a little, it would also be perfectly plausible in a skill based system to learn more about a certain monster type (a bit like the EQ2 thing) as you kill more and more of them or maybe you spend time observing them in their natural settings so that you are able to use monster specific skills as well.
Sadly most MMOs have a few things that help create a dynamic living changeable world that is immersive and everyone seems to crave so badly. Unfortunately no one has come along and made that compilation game yet. I have no doubt it will happen eventually. It's probably not going to be any major company doing it but people with spare time on their hands who are driven to create such a thing. It will start out small and unobtrusive and one day become something everyone learns about through their friends and the webtalk etc and be the standard for all others to follow until something else comes along.
The MMO industry these days... they arent looking for that. WIth all the money it takes they want what Microsoft said they wanted out of the Marvel MMO. A success defined by using a property that already has a vast following and thus has the potential for a large starting base and then a "quickly" crafted and launched game to make big bucks.
And that... is just not going to be the next big thing no matter what comes down the line until the MMO worlds become the immersive virtual worlds we all want them to be.
Comments
Of course that makes sense, but when you desperately need staff and you can't be sure who is abusing their powers and who isn't what would you do?
I'll tell you right now every MMO with GM or counselor types in their game either 1)don't give them any abusable powers thereby making them mostly useless except for linking to troubleshooting websites or 2)suffer from abusers.
So are you and like 3 guys who have time that you can trust going to fly around like a bunch of fairies tapping your wand on the heads of people who need XP rewards?
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
you misunderstand, skill-based RPG has nothing to do with player-skill driven games (like CoD4) besides minor similarities (like open character development where one avatar has the potential to unlock any skill)
Skill-based RPGs are games like Ultima Online and some upcoming titles where skills are improved through use.
UO was a sandbox at launch where there were no grouping mechanisms, full looting, no barriers, no quests, etc. Imagine that. Imagine not even having global chat. You had to use outside programs to communicate with others over long distances
Imagine a world where as soon as you walk out of a village you could get ganked and stripped clean. Your corpse would be opened up like a mob and you'd watch in horror as your killers take it all. They risked nothing, but you lost it all
Also imagine all the pkers earning 'red' outlaw status. Then it was blue (pve'ers) vs reds. Sure some blues stood up and fought but they cant be online to enforce justice 24/7
Alas, I have went off tangent. But yeah, skill-based RPGs and player skill are two different concepts....
Forget I mentioned CoD4. Was only trying to explain in vain that earning XP can be fun. Grinding can be fun, depending on the context
Well, the grind never ends in WoW. I would say Guild Wars is a step in the right direction. But then again, its also a step in the wrong direction in other areas I do not care to get into (cause I still plan to play it agan sometime so it would be silly for me to bash it heh)
on the other hand WoW was a step in the right direction. At least they gave us a PVP server, albeit, it wasnt really PVP at launch but more of a fight to survive lol. But that at least made PVE much more interesting for us- added a bit of dynamics to a static world where nothing ever changed....
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
you misunderstand, skill-based RPG has nothing to do with player-skill driven games (like CoD4) besides minor similarities (like open character development where one avatar has the potential to unlock any skill)
Skill-based RPGs are games like Ultima Online and some upcoming titles where skills are improved through use.
UO was a sandbox at launch where there were no grouping mechanisms, full looting, no barriers, no quests, etc. Imagine that. Imagine not even having global chat. You had to use outside programs to communicate with others over long distances
Imagine a world where as soon as you walk out of a village you could get ganked and stripped clean. Your corpse would be opened up like a mob and you'd watch in horror as your killers take it all. They risked nothing, but you lost it all
Also imagine all the pkers earning 'red' outlaw status. Then it was blue (pve'ers) vs reds. Sure some blues stood up and fought but they cant be online to enforce justice 24/7
Alas, I have went off tangent. But yeah, skill-based RPGs and player skill are two different concepts....
Forget I mentioned CoD4. Was only trying to explain in vain that earning XP can be fun. Grinding can be fun, depending on the context
Ok I understand where you're coming from now. That would be interesting but at the same time I'm not sure if I would get into it. I always hated games where noobs got killed by level 100's just because some guy with a big ego and a little penis wanted to be big man on campus. Now if you were able to level to a specific level then go into something like that when you know what your doing and you're ready then thats another story.
well, i dont know if any of u guys ever heard of a game called gunz, but it has a unique style of lvling, a noob could take out a veteran with alot of practice ( yes, im talking bout me, MAN was i feeling like big man on campus
) it didnt matter if u a noob or not, it only mattered if u can point and shoot faster than the opponent could, hell i was lvl one wasting lvl 14 and 15's . now if u played that game u would understand that it was a truly great idea.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
gunzonline is a great system. Though mainly as you have good gameplay you don't give two hoots about "grind". Thats what all mmorpgs should be like.
This is a monumentally bad idea that can be abused. I will just make TWO char, find a remote/safe place, and have them take turns killing one another.
Yawn.If people want to waste their time doing that, let them.
How's that any different than standing in one spot repeatedly killing Mobs?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
There needs to be more player influence on the world. Territories need need to change control and can be developed or destroyed by the faction that holds it. Each territory should have specific resources that benefit the holder. Economy, Politics, Crafting, so on need to play a bigger part of the big picture. Using fantasy Genre for example, Elves play for the good of Elves, Humans for Humans, so on and so forth. Do away with good vs evil and create more race focus. Within each race there could be good, neutral, evil all based on each players actions. Alliances could be made not only between races, but between guilds within each race. One thing I enjoyed about DAOC was the three faction style, but it left me just wanting more to the game.
Imagine war councils, diplomats, and Trade skills intertwined into the skill system. How cool would it be to make alliies with NPC races through trade and diplomacy? A human contingent makes a pack with Goblins in an effort to take control of a territory and opposing factions can try and get them to forsake the treaty through Diplomacy or brute submission. Guilds have various options they can try to seize control of government and implement some rule set for that race. There could be revolt if the rules displease the masses. Something like this would keep my attention and change the game from grind to strategy and purpose.
dude, u really should be a game disigner, those r some really good ideas
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
To follow up what Fansede said a little, it would also be perfectly plausible in a skill based system to learn more about a certain monster type (a bit like the EQ2 thing) as you kill more and more of them or maybe you spend time observing them in their natural settings so that you are able to use monster specific skills as well.
Sadly most MMOs have a few things that help create a dynamic living changeable world that is immersive and everyone seems to crave so badly. Unfortunately no one has come along and made that compilation game yet. I have no doubt it will happen eventually. It's probably not going to be any major company doing it but people with spare time on their hands who are driven to create such a thing. It will start out small and unobtrusive and one day become something everyone learns about through their friends and the webtalk etc and be the standard for all others to follow until something else comes along.
The MMO industry these days... they arent looking for that. WIth all the money it takes they want what Microsoft said they wanted out of the Marvel MMO. A success defined by using a property that already has a vast following and thus has the potential for a large starting base and then a "quickly" crafted and launched game to make big bucks.
And that... is just not going to be the next big thing no matter what comes down the line until the MMO worlds become the immersive virtual worlds we all want them to be.