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are developers afraid or just out of ideas?
madmanxtra
Member Posts: 3
Ive been playing mmos for about 5 years or more now and at first (in my opinion anyway) you saw new and intresting ideas and concepts when new games were made or planned.
but nowdays it seems like developers are scared to lose their funding or not get any if they take some chances on a game and rather "stick with what works". I used to play swg(pre CU) and that had imo the most customizeable character system ive seen in any mmo, then for some reason SOE decided to make it more "mainstream" to appeal to the larger community. In a way i was happy that they failed horribly with that but I was also sad that they destroyed one of the best mmo's to date.
Now we do not see games like it, we see games that have the monotone grinding level systems with level 1-XX(insert max cap here) and the occational customizing system on the side (talents in wow, achievements in eq2) character customization are at best limited to what items you chose to use and what stat bonus they give or at worst to what class you chose (Lineage2, new swg and so on). Now ive played DDO and prolly tested most other mmos aswell so i know that this isnt a fact in all games but the future looks grim for character customization, most games i read about seem to have the same 1-XX leveling system, predifined classes and hardly any option to make gaming unique to your character.
Maybe its time to replace the genre "mmorpg" with something more fitting? perhaps: massive multiplayer online grinding game, since the character customization is clearly gone in most cases or in others limited to a few tiny choices that at best makes your characters build worse or better compared with the "ultimate" builds that everyone is required to use to survive(not sure how it is now but when i used to play DDO fighters more or less had to focus on AC builds)
while this is mostly characters and levelsystem related, you often see game developers copying other games ideas right off or nearly remaking the entire game and changing maybe 1 or 2 things(most korean mmo's)
Im not sure about what others read "rpg" as but for me its character customization, ability to play in a way more or less "unique" to your playingstyle and forming your own story and role in the world.
so whats your thoughts? do the "odd" projects not get any funding? are developers afraid of loosing their sponsors if they try something "new"? or maybe this IS what mmorpg should be like and the genre is what it is? are the odd projects that have been planned just "bad" and the good ideas are just out there waiting for someone to use them?
Comments
There's a lot of factors... there's a possible brain drain in the industry and also since MMOs are high stakes business people tend to stick to tried and true formulas.
It's all about the money.
Even if the Dev's want to make a unique game, the financial backers will have a problem with that. They all see how succesful WoW has become and they want their share of the billions.
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle
It takes a lot of money to make these games. So companies bring out the 'grey suits', the guys who crunch numbers, do demographics, etc. They have MBA's, PHD's, etc. Mostly what they think they know they learned out of a textbook or from some motivational speaker who incidentally couldn't motivate his own kid to go out and mow the lawn. They don't know crap about gaming, but they fool all the manager types and investors with their credientials and phony formulas for success.
Then after the game bombs, the grey suits close up their suitcases and silently bow out, while the developers take all the heat for yet another failed, uninspired attempt at creating the next big WOW clone.
Your post implies that you think SWG preCU was NOT a grinding game.
I stopped reading when I realized this was the premise of your post, primarily because I couldn't stop laughing.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
why bother you're just going to buy their games anyways. while fanboys enforce the 'fact' that the game they/will play is completely different and possibly deserving of it's own genre since it doesn't deserve to be classed with the crap you play.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
the grinding was there and its not grinding that im opposed to im opposed to all games having the predifined classes and 1-XX level system with very little or none at all ability to customize your character. and that new ideas are rare in the mmo world.
I have to agree with the OP.
The point is that nobody since SWG early on has had the balls to step outside of the safe zone and allow players to be whatever they want. To do away with cookie cutter classes and let us choose the skills which suit our play style. The huge success of that MMO on training wheels that is WOW has handicapped he genre as a whole making developers afraid to step outside those formulaic boundaries.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
This great article can give you an idea:
www.firingsquad.com/features/killing_game_development/
I agree with most of your points. UO and SWG both had it, that open ended sandbox feel that a lot of us are desiring. Whats the point of playing a game when you can predict what's ahead of you? That's what I liked about UO, log in, and you decide what you want to be. I could be a swordsman one day, and change my gameplay style the next day and be a lumberjack with that same character. Skills in lumberjacking go up the more I'm into it, due to me doing it more, while swordsmanship starts to degrade over time due to me doing something different. Perfect emulation of skill atrophy in real life.
What they need to do is base a games mechanics on real world mechanics. Sure it's easy to go get a job at mcdonalds or starbucks ( this would be your neophyte skills ( and I appologize to anyone who works at these places )) It takes quite a bit more training and practical experience to be a pilot for example. Going to school, applying the skills / concepts, etc.. gives you experience, you gradually get better and eventually become a pilot ( 50 skill points out of 100 ). By the time you're at 100 points you're flying blackbirds for the military and stuff.
So in a game you'd divide all this stuff up, skills, concepts, things that bring your skill up ( investing time, learning about the skill, appying concepts, etc.. ) things that bring your skill down ( not investing time in learning or using the skill, not applying concepts, working on other skills, etc.. ).
So for a hack n slash game, concepts could be:
Melee fighting
Crafting
Magic Use
Swimming
Horse Riding
I could specialize in Melee Fighting, spend days fighting monsters, polishing my steel, looting, whatever. The more I do this, the more I practice, the better my skills get, I get experience in doing this and anything involving it ( running, hiding, sleeping, surviving, etc.. ).
If the next day I decided to hang up my hat and become a baker, I hunt down those concepts ( mixing, using an oven, staying clean, measuring components, etc.. ) The more I do this, the more experience I get for those concepts, thus making me better over time in the trade and all concepts related to what I'm doing.
If I wanted to be a baking swordsman, as long as I exercised both concepts equally i could excel in both.
I think the problem with this kind of concept is the fear of balance. Whats to stop a smart individual from finding that one flaw in the system that brings it all down. I'm no expert in this, but someone needs to create a true virtual massively multiplayer world without boundries ( other than the servers the world lives on ).
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With a 3-5 year development lifecycle, and AAA titles costing in the millions...do you really think people are just going to roll the dice and see what happens?
The time delay on development alone means that the games released this year were conceived of in 2001-2002. Consider what the MMOG market was like in 2002.
The games that are being conceived of today, which would reflect the trends of the current MMOG market, won't be playable until roughly 2012-2015. The turnaround is slow, the costs are high, and the risks are huge.
So don't look for turn-on-a-dime, daily innovation in this genre. Innovation is rare, it's slow, and it's usually unappreciated until well after the fact.
give it another 10-15 years before MMORPGS can be made faster and cost less to make
Which, ironically, never ever works (except for WoW itself)
When are they going to figure that out? It seems pretty damn obvious to me, from the evergrowing list of mediocre MMOs with borderline sales. It's not some kind of winning formula, at least not in the hands of anyone other than Blizzard. They would do better to try something different.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Having 10 specific servers, with different rules at launch, and a different lead programmer that is a wanna be designer...
That would be a bright idea.
Kinda as a WAR among devs. Can even feature online drama between devs attacking each other concepts.
Of course in RL they would be friend (would they?), but online, they would be like some players, doing drama and trying to get their rules to facedown other servers sets. And they would have a direct feedback, the amount of players subscribing to their server (servers if the numbers justify it).
They would be free to adapt/ignore anything the expansion offer, anyway they choose...but hopefully they would follow their credo and how they attract their playerbase!
Each 6 months, a new server concept would be added...and possibly 1 or more could be terminated (is characters transfer possible? That would be a decision belonging to the "receiving" servers and their set rules). Based on the high ops who would check the "revenues" of each servers.
I wouldn't wage on the FFA PvP server to facedown ever, althought I doubt it would be very popular, I think it would maintain the "revenues" to keep going, and going, and going...
Devs idols! :P
It would give, the "choice" to the players that way.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I agree with the OP...up to a point (I personally felt that SWG was as much grind as anything else that SOE put out before, during, and hence). The issue as a couple of other posters already said is money, each company looks at the daunting development cycle, costs leading up to launch and support, and wants to make sure it has a long future. So they all look at EQ (who started this grind trend) and think that's the best and only way to do it.
WoW came along and showed everyone in the industry that the real money isn't with the hard core no life gamer who will spend days on end getting tiny incremental advances on his character, the real money lay with the masses and giving them access to tiered contact. Unfortunately, WoW still sold out to the Raider mentality initially, due to Jeff Kaplan being the lead dev and still unable to think beyond the box of EQ. Burning Crusade was a concession on his part that he had to include the casual gamer more than he had previously. And therein is the key lesson that MMO developers are missing.
Its not the grind that makes the house its money, its the access to content by a broad diverse population. Making the leveling grind the same but with different window dressing isn't going to insure their income, its making the content engaging and accessible. Another lesson that WoW's Burning Crusade xpac should teach all developers, if you don't know how to properly balance a aspect of the game, go out and hire someone who can. Blizz has totally screwed up their PvP content with the inclusion of their borked up Arena system, which was supposed to be innovative and yet..turned out to be a exploitable grind that in final analysis, breaks the game.
And you can bet that developers of many other potential outfits are going to completely miss the above points, they're going to stick with the leveling scheme as it is, and give into the grind institution till the industry chokes itself lifeless on it. Though I hate to say it, it looks like console developers are far more innovative and in tune with what makes a good game than MMO developers will be for at least another 10 if not 20 years.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
The major flaw is that people who come to the game 6 months to a year later stand no chance of catching up. Therein lies the issue with this concept and that unfortunately is a huge issue.
It's called fear of failure......bolstered by a rationale that points to WOW's lack of innovation but good execution.So...like lemmings...they follow the WOW example.
If you search the Off Topic forums of the Bioware website you should come across a thread called "Bioware games". In that thread Stanley Woo the QA Ninja of Bioware says they don't take suggestions from forum posts. Basically there are already people paid to do that.
On one of the "EA threads" on their official discussion part of their forums one of the CEO say basically, "While notions of starving to make a game are romantic we are in the business of making video games".
Goes something like that anyway. Search the threads out on Bioware's web site if you want the exact wording. I give what I collected from them.
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Which, ironically, never ever works (except for WoW itself)
When are they going to figure that out? It seems pretty damn obvious to me, from the evergrowing list of mediocre MMOs with borderline sales. It's not some kind of winning formula, at least not in the hands of anyone other than Blizzard. They would do better to try something different.
exactly vanguard is just another example of a poorly executed wow/eq2/swg wannabe blend. But im guessing the bigger question is how do we the gamers that think beyond grinding make our voices heard? Ofcourse there will always be the brainless or childish players that buys the latest and best looking game but in the mmo world that isnt realy what keeps the games alive, companies want and need long-term subscribers.
So whats the point for companies to make games that a majority will leave as soon as the graphics gets a year old or a copy comes along with more blingbling to equip on your character? Is there anything we can do or should we just accept the masses demand for quantity over quality, graphics over depth?
However, what I would like to add is that some games were quality before they got shutdown. I'm referring to games like Earth and Beyond. I highly doubt they were shutdown because of lack of content.
I still have high hopes for Warhammer.
The DAoC formula is slightly different than the EQ/Wow formula.
If it succeeds at least there are two branches of the genre out there, and hopefully someone can take each of those branches in different directions.
EVE is still doing well for an Indie game, and there is a chance some one will copy this formula, and head in a different direction there.
There's also a chance for the revival of the SWG pre-fuck up formula. Sony was greedy, but SWG was actually making a profit. There's no reason someone couldn't copy that formula, with a few tweaks, and make a good profit if it was done well.
MMORPG Maker
different goes the way of auto assault.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Auto Assault
Mourning
Face of Mankind
Neocron
Roma Victor
Horizons
Shadowbane
Etc...
If you don't support games that try to be different, then don't complain about the lack of diversity in the market. Yes these games had other problems, but honestly few MMO's do not have problems at launch.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
There are more ideas than you can throw a stick at, but unfortunately with each new game you have the re-invent half of the wheel before you can work on "new" concepts. On top of this there is the whole technology race, and it is true that many publishers will not back you if they cannot see obvious results and improvements, like graphics or things like vehicles. Each new revision of this technology puts more and more pressure on the designers and developers to take advantage of the new features, but it does come at the cost of other area's of the end product.
Graphics are in a very tricky situation currently, as the closer you get to realism, the less able people are to detach from reality and ignore the inaccuracies. It subconsciously irritates people, whereas obvious "cartoon style" graphics have the opposite effect. People can actually believe in that world (this concept is popularly known as "suspension of disbelief" ), as there aren't the hundreds of subconscious inconsistencies that break the environment around you. This is one of the many reason's I feel that WoW is so successful to date, as it is a feature that it does not have to contend with, nor does it attempt to.
As things currently stand, each new 'basic' feature of a game (those that simply has to be included as everyone expects it to be there) now adds a prohibitive amount of time to the development cycle. Time and money are both limited. After all, time is money, and so inevitably the original and innovative content and features will suffer.
Developers most certainly are not afraid to try new things, or even out of idea's, but we are most definitely getting less and less time in which to implement them.
Of course, I am only an amateur when it comes to game development. I do what I can for the project on which I work, but at least I now have some idea of the challenges and issues involved.
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..and where does similar take you? I don't see a plethora of 'successful' WoW clone.
For a simple analogy... what maniac in their right mind is going to throw millions (or billions in this example) to compete with Microsoft in the mass OS market. Although WoW doesn't have the same stranglehold on the market, it makes as much sense to grab other sections of the market than go head on (using a team without a pedigree) against a product that resoundingly satisfies its customers.
Although you have a point, where do you think these paids guys take their ideas?
They often think of it alone in the dark. Some of them browse forums. For all we know, maybe you just spawn the future: Pony Online, the MMO killers which would destroy every other game!
Talking about videogames won't change any existing game. But devs, are often insomniacs...and some even read online forums. See, we are not going to fool anyone here...all serious devs take us for what we are...freaking nerds which should do something of their life but rather waste time speaking about games. That doesn't mean we can't make a point, spawn a doubt, a second consideration.
Hopefully, some brilliants devs reading these posts will figure...well, not everyone in a MMO enjoy the same thing, so let's make sure they have as much choice as possible and we never enforce foreign gameplays on their choice. I will never repeat it enought. Best at A, should be Aer. Best at B, should be Ber. (Best soloers in a game should be soloers, as they care, they are willing to solo to earn it, best groupers in a game should be groupers...and so on with each and every other gameplay).
I am pretty sure I will never have any impact on any game I wish I would have. That doesn't mean I won't have a positive impact in another game. Although, maybe I won't like that game at all. I mean...Ponies are cool I guess but...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren