And another thing while looking over the list... "-rp is encouraged"... wait, I thought the devs and gms and support people were all so hostile or indifferent to player concerns. How can they encourage anything?
I didn't say the devs and gms were the ones encouraging RP. I mean, they call it a rp game, but... ...
The game they made is built for fighting.
Sometimes they're hostile. Sometimes they're not. And I'm working on not painting them all with the same brush.
I'm sorry I made things so complicated to understand.
Originally posted by Hiraghm You know, reading over your list, I noticed the last item:
"-players can give content and ideas to development" hm. Not exactly something you can do with most commercial efforts; oh you can give your ideas to customer service droids, but directly to developers? not likely.
"Pstruth" just admit that you are an enemy of the game. You are not some crusader looking for a bastian to express yourself freely your recent comments make it clear you have not been in game for a long time due to a ban. Mmorpg.com continuing to tolerate this transparent poison is a great source of sadness for me. We did our best to make a sincere effort to post straightforward views of issues. When one individual is permitted the chance to "run the table" and say whatever they want unfounded or not there is a problem. I have called upon mods and been answered well. At this point I will have no more to do with this forum. I thank the kind mods who did their best to make sure a fair dialogue occurred here. This "pstruth" character clearly has a destructive agenda aimed at tearing down the game and the fact that he is in any way tolerated or believed to be a neutral poster is so far beyond what I can reasonably accept that I will have no more to do with this forum. I hope to the gods that he will not come back to ps after his ban is lifted. (despite protestations to the contrary this is a person banned for trolling).
All I see in this post is "Noone likes me here. I'm taking my ball and going home!".
More maturity displayed by the PS devs.
It is not this forums fault if you are unable to adequately defend your position or your game from those with negative points to discuss.
Going with "The bad men are against me!" form of argument provides more of a negative shadow against you, as you are saying you don't have a good enough argument to definitively prove your case.
Personally, I think it IS best if the PS devs stay out of this forum, as they have really served no purpose except to keep these threads rolling on.
"Pstruth" just admit that you are an enemy of the game. You are not some crusader looking for a bastian to express yourself freely your recent comments make it clear you have not been in game for a long time due to a ban. Mmorpg.com continuing to tolerate this transparent poison is a great source of sadness for me. We did our best to make a sincere effort to post straightforward views of issues. When one individual is permitted the chance to "run the table" and say whatever they want unfounded or not there is a problem. I have called upon mods and been answered well. At this point I will have no more to do with this forum. I thank the kind mods who did their best to make sure a fair dialogue occurred here. This "pstruth" character clearly has a destructive agenda aimed at tearing down the game and the fact that he is in any way tolerated or believed to be a neutral poster is so far beyond what I can reasonably accept that I will have no more to do with this forum. I hope to the gods that he will not come back to ps after his ban is lifted. (despite protestations to the contrary this is a person banned for trolling).
All I see in this post is "Noone likes me here. I'm taking my ball and going home!".
More maturity displayed by the PS devs.
It is not this forums fault if you are unable to adequately defend your position or your game from those with negative points to discuss.
Going with "The bad men are against me!" form of argument provides more of a negative shadow against you, as you are saying you don't have a good enough argument to definitively prove your case.
Personally, I think it IS best if the PS devs stay out of this forum, as they have really served no purpose except to keep these threads rolling on.
It sounds like that Dev is simply making an exit. No need to kick him on the way out.
As far as PStruth goes, I would happily discuss the things he doesn't like -thinks is bad- about the game. Seems silly that people reference the points PStruth doesn't like in an argument when they're telling someone who has defended against those points to go away....
That being said, what don't you like do you feel needs to be improved, PStruth?
Originally posted by Araroyige As far as PStruth goes, I would happily discuss the things he doesn't like -thinks is bad- about the game. Seems silly that people reference the points PStruth doesn't like in an argument when they're telling someone who has defended against those points to go away....
That being said, what don't you like do you feel needs to be improved, PStruth?
People attack you personally if you say anything critical of the game or its staff.
The devs do it, and there are players who join in on the fun. They're like fanatical defenders of the game.
You can't really challenge the devs or gms without putting yourself at risk. It's a very authoritarian culture.
They say open-source, but they mean free. They say cheat, but they mean mod. They say griefer, but they mean critic. They say pre-alpha, but they mean beta. They say they hate hack and slash, but most of the items and skills are for fighting, and most of the players are fighters.
You get attacked if you say you're unhappy with the current state. It's like a crime. The devs will never talk about parts of the game that suck... instead, they wait for someone else to say it, and then they jump on that person and give all sorts of excuses for the flaw.
The developers used to behave a lot worse though. Talad use to post here and he was really horrible to people. He tried to rescue himself by editting his posts to hide it all. Utmoon, queenoffools, and a few others have been bad as well, although queenoffools is much much better than he was. And Talad hasn't posted since he tried to delete all his posts.
Problems with the game itself are really unimportant relatively speaking because they're just code. Code is easier to fix than people.
People attack you personally if you say anything critical of the game or its staff. The devs do it, and there are players who join in on the fun. They're like fanatical defenders of the game. You can't really challenge the devs or gms without putting yourself at risk. It's a very authoritarian culture. They say open-source, but they mean free. They say cheat, but they mean mod. They say griefer, but they mean critic. They say pre-alpha, but they mean beta. They say they hate hack and slash, but most of the items and skills are for fighting, and most of the players are fighters. You get attacked if you say you're unhappy with the current state. It's like a crime. The devs will never talk about parts of the game that suck... instead, they wait for someone else to say it, and then they jump on that person and give all sorts of excuses for the flaw. The developers used to behave a lot worse though. Talad use to post here and he was really horrible to people. He tried to rescue himself by editting his posts to hide it all. Utmoon, queenoffools, and a few others have been bad as well, although queenoffools is much much better than he was. And Talad hasn't posted since he tried to delete all his posts. Problems with the game itself are really unimportant relatively speaking because they're just code. Code is easier to fix than people.
I'm a player, and I've been, afaik, at least decently polite.
Perhaps you're simply presenting any of your critiques wrong? I mean, if you make a masive list of things that you think do not work, without giving any feedback, or a way to change it, you're just telling them "I don't like this. Fix it. Now." And frankly, when people put in a ton of work like the PS team has, they don't enjoy being told how to do what they just did over and over again. While that might be an exaggeration, it's a general rule to think about.
Now, instead of complaining or commenting further, it would be a grand idea if you yourself joined the team to, one: Help fix some of the things that you don't like and/or would like to see tuned up and implemented, two: Finally understand their perspective and feelings, and then do what you can to stop people that attack the team directly, and three: Try to get them to express their ideas and complaints in a positive manner, so as to not have a board degenerate as this one has.
Focusing on past behavior, and bringing it up over and over again is pointless. They're obviously trying to change, and to put on a happy face, so let them. Bringing up the fact that one guy at work was really rude to you over and over again to all his friends when said guy is trying to make amends seems silly, doesn't it? This is the exact same thing. If they're trying to be polite now, then grow up and make amends. I know they weren't incredibly nice, but QueenofFools and UtMoon get thrashed whenever they posts here, you yourself get thrashed most of the time you post here, some players get thrashed whenever they post here.... Now, how on earth can that possibly be productive? The point of this board is to discuss the game, not to keep bringing up that the dev team used to be mean to you, or that you used to be mean to them.
It sounds your problem is with the developmental team..... Yet they're trying to make amends and turn a new leaf. So accept this metaphorical olive branch and then everything is good! Holding on to harsh words in the past is just silly.
In the thread I made, the example was only two days old, the guy was being rude to someone else (not me), and the guy wasn't trying to make amends with anyone.
In fact he even felt he was justified in doing what he did.
He's just one guy though. The team on average is improving, and the change seems to be driven by the leadership.
I don't like the answer "if you want things to improve, join the team". It feels like a cop out, and it isn't a realistic solution anyway. But it seems like the leadership is listening. It's just going to take a lot of work before the rest of them follow their example...
In the thread I made, the example was only two days old, the guy was being rude to someone else (not me), and the guy wasn't trying to make amends with anyone. In fact he even felt he was justified in doing what he did. He's just one guy though. The team on average is improving, and the change seems to be driven by the leadership.
I don't like the answer "if you want things to improve, join the team". It feels like a cop out, and it isn't a realistic solution anyway. But it seems like the leadership is listening. It's just going to take a lot of work before the rest of them follow their example...
Not to sound like a broken record, but...
It is a completely realistic solution.... All you do is apply, and then you can start to work on the project. Admittedly, the phrase is a constant thing, sort of mantra-esque, but it is true. If you want things to improve to your liking, join the team.
And believe me, Mathy is a constant victimizer. She continually acts like everyone hates her, finds ways to paint herself as the victim, and she has minimized major accomplishments of the Dev team. While she is part of the community, she seems hell-bent on alienating herself from it.
In that particular situation, attacking her for what she said was uncalled for. Mathy's comment was provokative, but the post he was replying to was dismissive.
~does research~
Mathy's posts are very positive and agreeable.
It looks to me like Mathy is trying very hard to be a good member of the community. I found a thread where mathy is trying to arrange for a reunion of ps players.
~does more research~
Here's another quote from mathy:
"The bottom line is that we are all in this together and should try to be polite to each other whenever possible. No we do not have to love each other, but we can try to be a team and play the best we can."
It seems like mathy is a "give peace a chance" kind of person.
I'm looking at stuff now where mathy is saying people should remember to be nice and welcoming to players on the forums. Ah, I guess that's why mathy is so hated?
More quotes...
"I could totally wrong here, but this just shows me that the person behind the character has feelings. This means that we should all play respectfully with each other."
"Encouragement is a much better way to help us, yet criticism done correctly is useful also."
"Over the years playing Planeshift I have learned it takes patience."
"Planeshift is great fun and I hope you enjoy it and welcome."
"To the person who I wish to thank the very most
Talad
Thank you for making this wonderful game for us to play and enjoy!!!"
"I want to say thank you to neko. Thank you for always answering my PM’s and helping me make the right decisions. Thank you for your patience when I ask you questions that make you think long and hard to give me the answers that work for the forums. We shall continue as always, you can count on that! Thanks.
I also want to thank Xillix. Not only do you put up with my snide remarks and ridiculous comments, you make it fun when you give it right back. Of course I thank you for all the work you do for PlaneShift. Mostly I want to thank you for being kind and fun to talk to."
Oh no, look at this one:
"I think this is sad. When I first started playing I was so welcomed. I could hardly keep up with the 'tells' and 'group chats' and the role plays going on. The thing is that I was invited to be part of this family so warmly I could not wait to play again!! What happened to that? Why do our newer players feel so put out and uninvited? Could this lead to the real reason for this thread? If we try to make the new people feel welcome, wouldn't that lead to less boredom because there would be more people to role play with and more things to do?"
See? A comment that brings up past irrelivancies doesn't help at all with any current argument. I bring up Mathy, and you bring up a large list of moderately useless quotes. You bring up Xillix, UtMoon, Talad, and most players rush to defend them as well. I'm sorry I had to use Mathy to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear.
However, Mathy -did- minimize the accomplishments of the developmental team of a free online game. The accomplishments of people who work on this game in their free time. I can see why such a reaction occured.
I can also see that arguing over her previous statements won't help.... So...
I am honestly glad there are people out there trying to defend other people, but I truly believe you are trying to back the wrong person.
I am speaking of course about Mathy. I've had some personal dealings with that individual though IRC, E-mail, Forums, etc. and you need to know that Mathy is not who she claims to be.
Now, you of course have the option of disregarding what I am telling you. That's your choice. But you should really know the truth before you react in that person's defence.
Mathy has been caught numerous times in outright lies and more than once in provoking people into hating her (if in fact she is a woman). You heard me... provoking people into hating her. She will post things or send things in personal e-mails that entice others to say something, then the moment you do, POW, "you hate me and how dare you tell me that", or the ever popular, "please don't, you are making me feel worse."
I've spoken with many people about these posts you continue to upload and frankly, you are starting to look rather foolish. Anyone who does the slightest amount of research on Mathy and reads through the entire postings of the forum she posted in, will be able to tell you that she is the commiserate Victim in all she does and she entices others to bash her so that she can make a point.
I read in another of your posts that the Devs have to treat people well. Not true sir (or miss... apologies if I got it wrong...) The devs don't owe the general everyday user anything. They sure as hell don't owe me anything!!!! They could simply develope the game on their own, perfect it, then sell it and we'd all then have to pay enormous amounts of money to play something we've all come to love.
No one that I know of (in game that is) complains about their beards looking the same as someone elses or their fur doesn't have the right texture. We are all focused on other things like, "how the hell do you get this quest", or "(Player x) said what about my fighting skills? Where is he.... let me at him".
I for one am very thankful of the Developer's hard work and constant fixing of the game. They are wonderful people and take to heart everything that is presented to them in the Bug Tracking System. I can't even begin to tell you about the thousands of bugs that have been caught and dealt with. AND LETS NOT FORGET THIS IS STILL A BETA GAME!!!!!!
Please sir, let it go. You are backing the wrong horse (as it were). Unless of course you have a personal stake in this Mathy person???? You and Mathy aren't the same person are you???
If your not, then you really should ask around. Talk to people in game about that person. I could give you many many many names including that of her latest victim. He contacted me in game after she told him not to. (smart man to check someone out first after a person tells you not to and before posting stuff in forums about a person you've had little dealings with).
See? A comment that brings up past irrelivancies doesn't help at all with any current argument. I bring up Mathy, and you bring up a large list of moderately useless quotes. You bring up Xillix, UtMoon, Talad, and most players rush to defend them as well. I'm sorry I had to use Mathy to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear.
However, Mathy -did- minimize the accomplishments of the developmental team of a free online game. The accomplishments of people who work on this game in their free time. I can see why such a reaction occured.
I can also see that arguing over her previous statements won't help.... So...
Why not apply for the team, PStruth?
I'm very confused. You and Utmoon have both said bad things about mathy. I looked for proof in mathy's posts. Instead of being a trouble maker, it looks like mathy is really nice and wants to make a positive contribution to the ps community. That's why I found those quotes and posted them.
You've told me that mathy is a trouble maker who's trying to hurt others and alienate herself. But I just don't see the evidence.
It's fine to be critical of someone. Just back up your assertions with proof.
We aren't arguing over her previous statements. You said she was, basically, a jerk. And because she's a jerk, it's ok to be mean to her. I'm just trying to evaluate the validity of your claim.
I'm very confused. You and Utmoon have both said bad things about mathy. I looked for proof in mathy's posts. Instead of being a trouble maker, it looks like mathy is really nice and wants to make a positive contribution to the ps community. That's why I found those quotes and posted them. You've told me that mathy is a trouble maker who's trying to hurt others and alienate herself. But I just don't see the evidence. It's fine to be critical of someone. Just back up your assertions with proof. We aren't arguing over her previous statements. You said she was, basically, a jerk. And because she's a jerk, it's ok to be mean to her. I'm just trying to evaluate the validity of your claim.
I don't remember saying that Mathy was a jerk. Quite the contrary. I think the individual is quite sad. A jerk; most definitly NOT the word I would use.
Not all proofs pstruth are in the forums. As I mentioned, I have many many people who have dealt with that person. To protect them, I will obviously NOT post their names in this forum. As I said, I have many e-mails and chat logs from IRC. If you wish for proof, go find Mathy, start up a conversation and lets see how long you last.
The point is that you claim that simply by looking through a forum you are going to find proof? Uh... No. However, after I looked through the ps forums, even I could see the pattern of her woe is me persona. If you are unable to see that, then perhaps speaking with others in game and asking them might also be appropriate.
All I'm saying here is gather more proof than what you have. Forums are not the end all be all (as it were).
I've done research on mathy. I looked at all her posts on the forum.
It's true that I don't know what she's done with irc, email.
Right now, I see no evidence that mathy is a bad person or a trouble maker. All I have is your testimony.
The devs should treat people well unless they don't care about the project. A community based project based on community contributions won't work if you have no community.
Are they able to be mean to people? Yes, They have the power. But that doesn't mean they should.
People complain about the Ylian model and how you can't customize the face. The lack of character models is one of the sore points of the game.
I don't have a personal stake in mathy. I do have a personal stake in the truth. If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people. But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk?
Maybe there's evidence that she's a jerk, but there's no proof on the forum.
I've done research on mathy. I looked at all her posts on the forum. It's true that I don't know what she's done with irc, email. Right now, I see no evidence that mathy is a bad person or a trouble maker. All I have is your testimony. The devs should treat people well unless they don't care about the project. A community based project based on community contributions won't work if you have no community. Are they able to be mean to people? Yes, They have the power. But that doesn't mean they should. People complain about the Ylian model and how you can't customize the face. The lack of character models is one of the sore points of the game. I don't have a personal stake in mathy. I do have a personal stake in the truth. If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people. But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk? Maybe there's evidence that she's a jerk, but there's no proof on the forum.
Again, You have pulled only those things that you wished to focus on. You have also used the word Jerk as if someone had called her that. Please re-read my post. I have never called her, nor would I call her a jerk. I think she's rather pathetic. I think she is sad. I think she is an instigator, but a jerk?? That is your term not mine.
Sir, you need to look at the whole of a thing before you can denounce or praise a thing. To pull out individual circumstances and assign empirical data to it based purely on your perspective is cafeterianism at best.
Should the Devs be polite? Only in so much as other people are polite in the general public. There are people who are not, and people who are. Read through the thousands upon thousands of posts the devs have made and you picked out what? 10 tops? which fit the particular profile you wish to exploit.
Should they have bad mouthed a person or wanted to Slap someone publicly? Perhaps not, but the point is, you are finger pointing at something you know very little about.
Let me ask you about the other 10's of thousands of posts they have made which do not support your theory. What about those? Why haven't you mentioned the polite posts? What about those posts in which they praise people for their helpfulness or for the particular bug they found? What about the hard work they have done to bring us great events like the night rogue event? Your going to pick out a handful of posts over 10s of thousands?
I'm sorry, but that to me seems like you either owe this Mathy person something, or you are somehow connected to that person. It doesn' t seem fair and biased to me at all. I am NOT accusing here, merely pointing out that somehow a person who cries foul repeatedly without completely researching something isn't using all avenues available to them. You only have my word so far as you have mentioned, but you also have the word of 3 other people from other posts in this forum. That makes 4 of us. Now... you have an account on PS I assume. Go in, talk to people about Mathy and see their responses. That's all you have to do. If you are unwilling to do so, then what may I ask are you afraid of OR in which way are you connected to Mathy?
Should the PS devs treat their customers with respect? Again sir I ask you: What Customers? We are allowed to play their game. Nothing more. If we wish, we can have fun and help out with programming, but we do not own the game; they do! It is free and open source, but the characters and server are theirs, not ours. We can compile similar worlds, but only they have the quests and character builds and so forth. There are limitations to the license. Perhaps you should read it before you make your claims against them. http://www.planeshift.it/license.html
You are right that there is no community support without a community, but you somehow missed the fact that the game is developing, moving forward, progressing, and there are people who are quite happy with the game. They make simple suggestions, and are for the most part, very very patient. If they are not patient, they get in there and help out where ever they can and that too makes them feel good! AND THEY ARE THANKED CONSIDERABLY for that help. Something you have obviously overlooked in your perusing of the development forums.
At this point there is obviously nothing you will listen to other than your own soap box blathering so I will bid you good day and hope that you are somehow able to get over what ever it is that the person did to you to make you so angry. Perhaps talking it out with that person may be a better way of working through things than bad mouthing something you know very little about.
and I shant be responding any further. I put my voice out there for the public to read. They can make up their own minds.
Edited to add: hmmm... very interesting..... www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173971 Guess you've been down that road before eh? It's absolutely amazing what one can find when someone takes the time to look in the right places. Or am I taking something out of context there?
YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.
I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.
You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.
YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.
I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.
You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.
You need to re-read your posts in the other areas you have posted then. YOU have in fact referred to the players as CUSTOMERS.
You have also used an exact match to what Mathy claimed other people would do. Post and run. How interesting.
I post to offend no one! I have merely made clarifications that you have misread several times now. It is you who are accusitory. Not me. I have called no one names. You did. I have never said you were this or that, You did.
Personally I don't care what you believe or don't believe about me. But I will put all this out there for others to read and make their own minds up rather than listening to you rant without warrant. Your actions and words have been baseless and frankly childish.
If you have that many problems with the game and the developers,
THEN STOP PLAYING AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
OH... who did I offend? You? Then I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to offend you as you have done to the PS Development team.
Again, You have pulled only those things that you wished to focus on. You have also used the word Jerk as if someone had called her that. Please re-read my post. I have never called her, nor would I call her a jerk. I think she's rather pathetic. I think she is sad. I think she is an instigator, but a jerk?? That is your term not mine.
Sir, you need to look at the whole of a thing before you can denounce or praise a thing. To pull out individual circumstances and assign empirical data to it based purely on your perspective is cafeterianism at best. Should the Devs be polite? Only in so much as other people are polite in the general public. There are people who are not, and people who are. Read through the thousands upon thousands of posts the devs have made and you picked out what? 10 tops? which fit the particular profile you wish to exploit. Should they have bad mouthed a person or wanted to Slap someone publicly? Perhaps not, but the point is, you are finger pointing at something you know very little about. Let me ask you about the other 10's of thousands of posts they have made which do not support your theory. What about those? Why haven't you mentioned the polite posts? What about those posts in which they praise people for their helpfulness or for the particular bug they found? What about the hard work they have done to bring us great events like the night rogue event? Your going to pick out a handful of posts over 10s of thousands? I'm sorry, but that to me seems like you either owe this Mathy person something, or you are somehow connected to that person. It doesn' t seem fair and biased to me at all. I am NOT accusing here, merely pointing out that somehow a person who cries foul repeatedly without completely researching something isn't using all avenues available to them. You only have my word so far as you have mentioned, but you also have the word of 3 other people from other posts in this forum. That makes 4 of us. Now... you have an account on PS I assume. Go in, talk to people about Mathy and see their responses. That's all you have to do. If you are unwilling to do so, then what may I ask are you afraid of OR in which way are you connected to Mathy?
Should the PS devs treat their customers with respect? Again sir I ask you: What Customers? We are allowed to play their game. Nothing more. If we wish, we can have fun and help out with programming, but we do not own the game; they do! It is free and open source, but the characters and server are theirs, not ours. We can compile similar worlds, but only they have the quests and character builds and so forth. There are limitations to the license. Perhaps you should read it before you make your claims against them. http://www.planeshift.it/license.html You are right that there is no community support without a community, but you somehow missed the fact that the game is developing, moving forward, progressing, and there are people who are quite happy with the game. They make simple suggestions, and are for the most part, very very patient. If they are not patient, they get in there and help out where ever they can and that too makes them feel good! AND THEY ARE THANKED CONSIDERABLY for that help. Something you have obviously overlooked in your perusing of the development forums.
At this point there is obviously nothing you will listen to other than your own soap box blathering so I will bid you good day and hope that you are somehow able to get over what ever it is that the person did to you to make you so angry. Perhaps talking it out with that person may be a better way of working through things than bad mouthing something you know very little about.
YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.
I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.
You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.
Look harder? I've seen several reactions from her that were more and more of the "Woe is me, everyone hates me, Wah. " Whenever someone jokes around slightly, any joking comment is taken as "I HATE YOU. DIE."
If you like, I could go ask ten more people to post on here and say that Mathy victimizes herself. Would that work?
Comments
I didn't say the devs and gms were the ones encouraging RP. I mean, they call it a rp game, but... ...
The game they made is built for fighting.
Sometimes they're hostile. Sometimes they're not.
And I'm working on not painting them all with the same brush.
I'm sorry I made things so complicated to understand.
Well, I'm glad I was able to teach something...
All I see in this post is "Noone likes me here. I'm taking my ball and going home!".
More maturity displayed by the PS devs.
It is not this forums fault if you are unable to adequately defend your position or your game from those with negative points to discuss.
Going with "The bad men are against me!" form of argument provides more of a negative shadow against you, as you are saying you don't have a good enough argument to definitively prove your case.
Personally, I think it IS best if the PS devs stay out of this forum, as they have really served no purpose except to keep these threads rolling on.
All I see in this post is "Noone likes me here. I'm taking my ball and going home!".
More maturity displayed by the PS devs.
It is not this forums fault if you are unable to adequately defend your position or your game from those with negative points to discuss.
Going with "The bad men are against me!" form of argument provides more of a negative shadow against you, as you are saying you don't have a good enough argument to definitively prove your case.
Personally, I think it IS best if the PS devs stay out of this forum, as they have really served no purpose except to keep these threads rolling on.
It sounds like that Dev is simply making an exit. No need to kick him on the way out.
As far as PStruth goes, I would happily discuss the things he doesn't like -thinks is bad- about the game. Seems silly that people reference the points PStruth doesn't like in an argument when they're telling someone who has defended against those points to go away....
That being said, what don't you like do you feel needs to be improved, PStruth?
*EDIT:* Needed to fix the wiggle room.
Talad promotes uncivil behavior.
People attack you personally if you say anything critical of the game or its staff.
The devs do it, and there are players who join in on the fun. They're like fanatical defenders of the game.
You can't really challenge the devs or gms without putting yourself at risk. It's a very authoritarian culture.
They say open-source, but they mean free. They say cheat, but they mean mod. They say griefer, but they mean critic. They say pre-alpha, but they mean beta. They say they hate hack and slash, but most of the items and skills are for fighting, and most of the players are fighters.
You get attacked if you say you're unhappy with the current state. It's like a crime. The devs will never talk about parts of the game that suck... instead, they wait for someone else to say it, and then they jump on that person and give all sorts of excuses for the flaw.
The developers used to behave a lot worse though. Talad use to post here and he was really horrible to people. He tried to rescue himself by editting his posts to hide it all. Utmoon, queenoffools, and a few others have been bad as well, although queenoffools is much much better than he was. And Talad hasn't posted since he tried to delete all his posts.
Problems with the game itself are really unimportant relatively speaking because they're just code. Code is easier to fix than people.
When I gave an example of how the devs should treat players...
I used a post by QueenofFools as the example.
Everybody deserves a second chance. QueenofFools has improved a lot on the forum. He
I'm a player, and I've been, afaik, at least decently polite.
Perhaps you're simply presenting any of your critiques wrong? I mean, if you make a masive list of things that you think do not work, without giving any feedback, or a way to change it, you're just telling them "I don't like this. Fix it. Now." And frankly, when people put in a ton of work like the PS team has, they don't enjoy being told how to do what they just did over and over again. While that might be an exaggeration, it's a general rule to think about.
Now, instead of complaining or commenting further, it would be a grand idea if you yourself joined the team to, one: Help fix some of the things that you don't like and/or would like to see tuned up and implemented, two: Finally understand their perspective and feelings, and then do what you can to stop people that attack the team directly, and three: Try to get them to express their ideas and complaints in a positive manner, so as to not have a board degenerate as this one has.
Focusing on past behavior, and bringing it up over and over again is pointless. They're obviously trying to change, and to put on a happy face, so let them. Bringing up the fact that one guy at work was really rude to you over and over again to all his friends when said guy is trying to make amends seems silly, doesn't it? This is the exact same thing. If they're trying to be polite now, then grow up and make amends. I know they weren't incredibly nice, but QueenofFools and UtMoon get thrashed whenever they posts here, you yourself get thrashed most of the time you post here, some players get thrashed whenever they post here.... Now, how on earth can that possibly be productive? The point of this board is to discuss the game, not to keep bringing up that the dev team used to be mean to you, or that you used to be mean to them.
It sounds your problem is with the developmental team..... Yet they're trying to make amends and turn a new leaf. So accept this metaphorical olive branch and then everything is good! Holding on to harsh words in the past is just silly.
In the thread I made, the example was only two days old, the guy was being rude to someone else (not me), and the guy wasn't trying to make amends with anyone.
In fact he even felt he was justified in doing what he did.
He's just one guy though. The team on average is improving, and the change seems to be driven by the leadership.
I don't like the answer "if you want things to improve, join the team". It feels like a cop out, and it isn't a realistic solution anyway. But it seems like the leadership is listening. It's just going to take a lot of work before the rest of them follow their example...
Not to sound like a broken record, but...
It is a completely realistic solution.... All you do is apply, and then you can start to work on the project. Admittedly, the phrase is a constant thing, sort of mantra-esque, but it is true. If you want things to improve to your liking, join the team.
And believe me, Mathy is a constant victimizer. She continually acts like everyone hates her, finds ways to paint herself as the victim, and she has minimized major accomplishments of the Dev team. While she is part of the community, she seems hell-bent on alienating herself from it.
I don't think that's true at all.
In that particular situation, attacking her for what she said was uncalled for. Mathy's comment was provokative, but the post he was replying to was dismissive.
~does research~
Mathy's posts are very positive and agreeable.
It looks to me like Mathy is trying very hard to be a good member of the community. I found a thread where mathy is trying to arrange for a reunion of ps players.
~does more research~
Here's another quote from mathy:
"The bottom line is that we are all in this together and should try to be polite to each other whenever possible. No we do not have to love each other, but we can try to be a team and play the best we can."
It seems like mathy is a "give peace a chance" kind of person.
I'm looking at stuff now where mathy is saying people should remember to be nice and welcoming to players on the forums. Ah, I guess that's why mathy is so hated?
More quotes...
"I could totally wrong here, but this just shows me that the person behind the character has feelings. This means that we should all play respectfully with each other."
"Encouragement is a much better way to help us, yet criticism done correctly is useful also."
"Over the years playing Planeshift I have learned it takes patience."
"Planeshift is great fun and I hope you enjoy it and welcome."
"To the person who I wish to thank the very most
Talad
Thank you for making this wonderful game for us to play and enjoy!!!"
"I want to say thank you to neko. Thank you for always answering my PM’s and helping me make the right decisions. Thank you for your patience when I ask you questions that make you think long and hard to give me the answers that work for the forums. We shall continue as always, you can count on that! Thanks.
I also want to thank Xillix. Not only do you put up with my snide remarks and ridiculous comments, you make it fun when you give it right back. Of course I thank you for all the work you do for PlaneShift. Mostly I want to thank you for being kind and fun to talk to."
Oh no, look at this one:
"I think this is sad. When I first started playing I was so welcomed. I could hardly keep up with the 'tells' and 'group chats' and the role plays going on. The thing is that I was invited to be part of this family so warmly I could not wait to play again!! What happened to that? Why do our newer players feel so put out and uninvited? Could this lead to the real reason for this thread? If we try to make the new people feel welcome, wouldn't that lead to less boredom because there would be more people to role play with and more things to do?"
I guess she's evil.
See? A comment that brings up past irrelivancies doesn't help at all with any current argument. I bring up Mathy, and you bring up a large list of moderately useless quotes. You bring up Xillix, UtMoon, Talad, and most players rush to defend them as well. I'm sorry I had to use Mathy to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear.
However, Mathy -did- minimize the accomplishments of the developmental team of a free online game. The accomplishments of people who work on this game in their free time. I can see why such a reaction occured.
I can also see that arguing over her previous statements won't help.... So...
Why not apply for the team, PStruth?
Mr. pstruth,
I am honestly glad there are people out there trying to defend other people, but I truly believe you are trying to back the wrong person.
I am speaking of course about Mathy. I've had some personal dealings with that individual though IRC, E-mail, Forums, etc. and you need to know that Mathy is not who she claims to be.
Now, you of course have the option of disregarding what I am telling you. That's your choice. But you should really know the truth before you react in that person's defence.
Mathy has been caught numerous times in outright lies and more than once in provoking people into hating her (if in fact she is a woman). You heard me... provoking people into hating her. She will post things or send things in personal e-mails that entice others to say something, then the moment you do, POW, "you hate me and how dare you tell me that", or the ever popular, "please don't, you are making me feel worse."
I've spoken with many people about these posts you continue to upload and frankly, you are starting to look rather foolish. Anyone who does the slightest amount of research on Mathy and reads through the entire postings of the forum she posted in, will be able to tell you that she is the commiserate Victim in all she does and she entices others to bash her so that she can make a point.
I read in another of your posts that the Devs have to treat people well. Not true sir (or miss... apologies if I got it wrong...) The devs don't owe the general everyday user anything. They sure as hell don't owe me anything!!!! They could simply develope the game on their own, perfect it, then sell it and we'd all then have to pay enormous amounts of money to play something we've all come to love.
No one that I know of (in game that is) complains about their beards looking the same as someone elses or their fur doesn't have the right texture. We are all focused on other things like, "how the hell do you get this quest", or "(Player x) said what about my fighting skills? Where is he.... let me at him".
I for one am very thankful of the Developer's hard work and constant fixing of the game. They are wonderful people and take to heart everything that is presented to them in the Bug Tracking System. I can't even begin to tell you about the thousands of bugs that have been caught and dealt with. AND LETS NOT FORGET THIS IS STILL A BETA GAME!!!!!!
Please sir, let it go. You are backing the wrong horse (as it were). Unless of course you have a personal stake in this Mathy person???? You and Mathy aren't the same person are you???
If your not, then you really should ask around. Talk to people in game about that person. I could give you many many many names including that of her latest victim. He contacted me in game after she told him not to. (smart man to check someone out first after a person tells you not to and before posting stuff in forums about a person you've had little dealings with).
Let it go.
I'm very confused. You and Utmoon have both said bad things about mathy. I looked for proof in mathy's posts. Instead of being a trouble maker, it looks like mathy is really nice and wants to make a positive contribution to the ps community. That's why I found those quotes and posted them.
You've told me that mathy is a trouble maker who's trying to hurt others and alienate herself. But I just don't see the evidence.
It's fine to be critical of someone. Just back up your assertions with proof.
We aren't arguing over her previous statements. You said she was, basically, a jerk. And because she's a jerk, it's ok to be mean to her. I'm just trying to evaluate the validity of your claim.
I don't remember saying that Mathy was a jerk. Quite the contrary. I think the individual is quite sad. A jerk; most definitly NOT the word I would use.
Not all proofs pstruth are in the forums. As I mentioned, I have many many people who have dealt with that person. To protect them, I will obviously NOT post their names in this forum. As I said, I have many e-mails and chat logs from IRC. If you wish for proof, go find Mathy, start up a conversation and lets see how long you last.
The point is that you claim that simply by looking through a forum you are going to find proof? Uh... No. However, after I looked through the ps forums, even I could see the pattern of her woe is me persona. If you are unable to see that, then perhaps speaking with others in game and asking them might also be appropriate.
All I'm saying here is gather more proof than what you have. Forums are not the end all be all (as it were).
I've done research on mathy. I looked at all her posts on the forum.
It's true that I don't know what she's done with irc, email.
Right now, I see no evidence that mathy is a bad person or a trouble maker. All I have is your testimony.
The devs should treat people well unless they don't care about the project. A community based project based on community contributions won't work if you have no community.
Are they able to be mean to people? Yes, They have the power. But that doesn't mean they should.
People complain about the Ylian model and how you can't customize the face. The lack of character models is one of the sore points of the game.
I don't have a personal stake in mathy. I do have a personal stake in the truth. If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people. But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk?
Maybe there's evidence that she's a jerk, but there's no proof on the forum.
I might try talking to her. We'll see what happens.
Again, You have pulled only those things that you wished to focus on. You have also used the word Jerk as if someone had called her that. Please re-read my post. I have never called her, nor would I call her a jerk. I think she's rather pathetic. I think she is sad. I think she is an instigator, but a jerk?? That is your term not mine.
Sir, you need to look at the whole of a thing before you can denounce or praise a thing. To pull out individual circumstances and assign empirical data to it based purely on your perspective is cafeterianism at best.
Should the Devs be polite? Only in so much as other people are polite in the general public. There are people who are not, and people who are. Read through the thousands upon thousands of posts the devs have made and you picked out what? 10 tops? which fit the particular profile you wish to exploit.
Should they have bad mouthed a person or wanted to Slap someone publicly? Perhaps not, but the point is, you are finger pointing at something you know very little about.
Let me ask you about the other 10's of thousands of posts they have made which do not support your theory. What about those? Why haven't you mentioned the polite posts? What about those posts in which they praise people for their helpfulness or for the particular bug they found? What about the hard work they have done to bring us great events like the night rogue event? Your going to pick out a handful of posts over 10s of thousands?
I'm sorry, but that to me seems like you either owe this Mathy person something, or you are somehow connected to that person. It doesn' t seem fair and biased to me at all. I am NOT accusing here, merely pointing out that somehow a person who cries foul repeatedly without completely researching something isn't using all avenues available to them. You only have my word so far as you have mentioned, but you also have the word of 3 other people from other posts in this forum. That makes 4 of us. Now... you have an account on PS I assume. Go in, talk to people about Mathy and see their responses. That's all you have to do. If you are unwilling to do so, then what may I ask are you afraid of OR in which way are you connected to Mathy?
Should the PS devs treat their customers with respect? Again sir I ask you: What Customers? We are allowed to play their game. Nothing more. If we wish, we can have fun and help out with programming, but we do not own the game; they do! It is free and open source, but the characters and server are theirs, not ours. We can compile similar worlds, but only they have the quests and character builds and so forth. There are limitations to the license. Perhaps you should read it before you make your claims against them. http://www.planeshift.it/license.html
You are right that there is no community support without a community, but you somehow missed the fact that the game is developing, moving forward, progressing, and there are people who are quite happy with the game. They make simple suggestions, and are for the most part, very very patient. If they are not patient, they get in there and help out where ever they can and that too makes them feel good! AND THEY ARE THANKED CONSIDERABLY for that help. Something you have obviously overlooked in your perusing of the development forums.
At this point there is obviously nothing you will listen to other than your own soap box blathering so I will bid you good day and hope that you are somehow able to get over what ever it is that the person did to you to make you so angry. Perhaps talking it out with that person may be a better way of working through things than bad mouthing something you know very little about.
and I shant be responding any further. I put my voice out there for the public to read. They can make up their own minds.
Edited to add: hmmm... very interesting..... www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173971 Guess you've been down that road before eh? It's absolutely amazing what one can find when someone takes the time to look in the right places. Or am I taking something out of context there?
YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS. All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.
I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.
You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.
You need to re-read your posts in the other areas you have posted then. YOU have in fact referred to the players as CUSTOMERS.
You have also used an exact match to what Mathy claimed other people would do. Post and run. How interesting.
I post to offend no one! I have merely made clarifications that you have misread several times now. It is you who are accusitory. Not me. I have called no one names. You did. I have never said you were this or that, You did.
Personally I don't care what you believe or don't believe about me. But I will put all this out there for others to read and make their own minds up rather than listening to you rant without warrant. Your actions and words have been baseless and frankly childish.
If you have that many problems with the game and the developers,
THEN STOP PLAYING AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
OH... who did I offend? You? Then I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to offend you as you have done to the PS Development team.
Took the words out of my mouth. Thank you.
I have NEVER called the planeshift players customers, and I challenge you to find a post where I have.
I haven't talked about what I believe about YOU. I've talked about what I believe about mathy.
I've often posted evidence to back up my assertions, so my assertions are not "baseless".
Nothing you do can offend me. However, your intent is clearly to offend.
Look harder? I've seen several reactions from her that were more and more of the "Woe is me, everyone hates me, Wah.
" Whenever someone jokes around slightly, any joking comment is taken as "I HATE YOU. DIE."
If you like, I could go ask ten more people to post on here and say that Mathy victimizes herself. Would that work?
You could also get ten people to testify that there's nothing wrong with planeshift. Testimony is only worth so much.
If you want to convince me you're right about mathy, I'll need good evidence, like a confession, or a link to a post she's made.