Please elaborate - what is this "You buy, you keep policy"?
Do you mean a "Bind on acquire"-type thing? Personally, I prefer a "Bind on Equip" system, but I can see where that is abusible... Do you mean "Bind on Acquire" for items from RMT shop only? That would be an interesting idea.
Bind on acquire would reflect my idea here. Since RMT are going to be hidden as well in game in every market, I would expand it to the whole market, but without expanded or not, anything is better than nothing. Speculation hurt the RMT themselves, althought on a superficial level, they are the one doing it the most and the best, and should be the one benefacting from them. But if you take a deeper layer of understanding, speculation on a first layer hurt the casuals, but in the long run, anything which hurt the casuals hurt everyone else in the game.
You buy, you keep. Simple, efficient, and fullfilling the goal of the market, which is the trade of goods for peoples who need them. The more this system work without interferance, the better everyone, including the RMT, would be. Happier and healthy casuals reflect in many ways. (of course, if 1 RMT does speculate and other doesn't...those who don't are shafted badly).
See, unlike some who are officially hunting goldsellers, I see them as my friends. And if a friend is doing something which hurt himself and other, I have to try to put some sense into their head so they stop hurting other first, and second, themselves. A bind on equip would not remove RMT, it would complicated their existance granted. But it would in fact remove most speculation and artificial inflation from the game. A serious RMT organisation would want to see such a feature, as it may outright kill some competition in the same time...and me; I care mostly for the casuals and the game overall health.
I am not the best at explanations however...so I will try the simple equation...
Bind on equip = 99% speculation decrease = less inflation = casuals purchasing more items they want = more real trades = more troubles and complexity for speculators and RMT = less speculators = more careful planning = better game = more casuals = more business for RMT (and less competition) (The more REAL trades happen, the more they want, the more they want, the more business as well for RMT)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Why is everyone making such a big deal out of this like it's something new? Sony has been running the Station Exchange servers for over 2 years now. This is just switching the process to a new company.
I play on one of the servers, and I love the exchange. I make well over 300 bucks a week selling plat on the game.
Heh... As though we needed another example of how low SOE will go for the almighty $$$.
It's a wonderful spin they put on it. "We're doing it to help the players from getting scammed". They're just doing what's best for their subscribers. Aww how thoughtful. They said the same thing of the NGE and we all know how that was received. But, surely SOE *must* be totally honest and looking out for their loyal customers, right?
No they're not.
They're embracing the idea so they get both ends of the deal - the sub fee *and* the RMT money. Come on people. It's clear as crystal. The only thing SOE is dedicated to is their bottom line. If they *really* cared, they would be putting more effort into improving some of the games under their umbrella for the players who still loyally play them in hopes that they will. But they don't. They just soak up whatever revenue they can while doing the absolute minimum with them. Meanwhile, they're negotiating deals with some RMT company to expand their "sanctioned RMT" business. Yeah, their hearts are really with the players.
As for those saying that it's "urban legends" or "myths" that RMT can have an adverse effect on the game... you're full of it. I've seen it happen, before and after, in FFXI, as one example. RMT was running rampant in that game for a while, inflation was out of control, and it was driving people away - especially new players. The lowest level, newbie gear was out of reach for many new players as they simply couldn't make enough to afford it. So they gave up.
And don't even get me started on the higher level rare stuff. RMT groups would actively and openly monopolize certain named mobs who dropped these items, 24/7, so they controlled the market on them, driving the prices up and up and up to the point that people would feel they had no choice *but* to buy the money if they were ever to get one. They would routinely mob-train competing groups of legit players also trying to get claim of the mob. It was to the point that SE altered the mob aggro code so that could no longer happen. But the RMT is harmless right? Has no effect on the game or on legit players, right? It's all just a myth. Yeah.. just keep those blinders on.
See, it's not only the economy that's screwed with. The tactics RMT groups use to get their gil are often intrusive to other players as well - monopolizing mobs, overrunning areas, flooding market with certain items that they can fish/craft/farm 24/7... and on and on. Some have gone as far as trying to hack accounts. So when you're supporting RMT in a game not designed with it in mind (ie. Second Life, etc), you're also condoning those kinds of actions. Good job.
SE finally got serious and started aggressively combatting it in FFXI, removing billions upon billions of ill-intended gil from the economy and making a few in-game changes to certain high-demand items... The result? The economy has come back down to earth; it's now lower in many cases than it was even when I first started 4+ years ago at the NA PC launch. Items that were in the millions are now under 1 mil in price. People just starting out can actually realistically afford gear now that was once out of their reach.
See, that's the difference.
SE, Blizzard, and other companies see RMT for the problem it is, from all angles, and the effect it has on their players long term and aggressively combat it.
SOE sees RMT only as untapped $$$ in their pockets and embrace it wholeheartedly - while still having the gall to try coming out smelling like a rose by saying they're "doing it to protect the players". They're not protecting anyone.. last I checked "non-sanctioned" RMT was alive and well in EQ2. SOE's merely getting their cut of the pie.
So believe whatever you want. Tell yourself whatever you will about how "harmless RMT is on a game". I've seen empirical evidence of it with my own two eyes that it absolutely does have an effect. Of course, I speak only for those of us who believe in playing the game and not buying our way through.
It does sorta amuse me when the people whose progress in a game can be tracked back to charges on their credit card or bank statement, beyond the sub fee, insist RMT has no affect on the game. Well of course not.. Not for you. Not when you see everything you want in the game as "just a transaction away" and buy your achievements instead of actually playing the game as designed. For those who actually still believe in *playing* the game and don't feel entitled to "keep up because they have a job and can't play as much" it has a very real effect. I've seen both extremes of it. So, no, it's not "urban legend" or myth. It's quite real. Though, I realize it's hard to see that when you won't look past your own nose.
I've read all the reasons and rationales and excuses. It all comes back to "I don't want to have to put in the same effort others do to get what I want, so I shouldn't have to. ANd as long as I get what I want out of it, who cares how anyone else is affected by it". The classic "me me me" attitude.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Strange how Smedley says this new service will be better because it can deal with fraud more effectively since most fraud occurs overseas and acknowledges that Blizzard did the right thing by suing Peons4hire, an American company, yet he can't explain why SOE has never sued Playerauctions, also an American company, which made millions off of sponsoring classic EQ gold sales when Ebay removed them.
It's just more bullshit.
Originally posted by Hexxeity
Because with sanctioned RMT, they get a cut of the transaction PLUS two subscriptions (the farmer and the buyer).
And they don't have to worry about balancing the amount of currency coming into the game, as it is all earned legitimately, as opposed to being "created from nothing" when someone buys gold from them directly.
I don't like any form of RMT, but it's true that the Roma Victor and item shop game models of creating items and gold for sale out of thin air, is far worse for the game economy than buying from a famer that earned the item or gold legitimately in game thru expended effort.
Strange how Smedley says this new service will be better because it can deal with fraud more effectively since most fraud occurs overseas and acknowledges that Blizzard did the right thing by suing Peons4hire, an American company, yet he can't explain why SOE has never sued Playerauctions, also an American company, which made millions off of sponsoring classic EQ gold sales when Ebay removed them. It's just more bullshit.
Because Smedley and co don't count on people, like yourself, to look at the situation that closely or critically. They rely on the people who will buy into everything they're told and not question it. And, besides, if it means more $$$ in the end for them, what does a little hypocrisy matter?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
These suits must think that most of us were born yesterday. This is clearly about extracting maximum revenue from customers and nothing more. Period. In a perfect world a smart business would actually think about its customers first and as a result see the profits roll in.
It is obvious you don't understand the market. Despite the fact that you may dislike RMT, the simple fact of the matter is that you are in the minority. This is a thriving online business, and SOE recognizes that many of their customers desire the ability to participate in RMT transactions. In reality, SOE is most definately thinking about its customers first. You're just mad because they aren't thinking about YOU first.
I think I understand the market reasonably well and so does SOE. This is why there are only two RMT servers in EQ2 following the poll they did. This is why they did not at that time make them all RMT. I'd say that is better evidence than your presumtions about me being unhappy, etc.
Heh... As though we needed another example of how low SOE will go for the almighty $$$. It's a wonderful spin they put on it. "We're doing it to help the players from getting scammed". They're just doing what's best for their subscribers. Aww how thoughtful. They said the same thing of the NGU and we all know how that was received. But, surely SOE *must* be totally honest and looking out for their loyal customers, right? No they're not. They're embracing the idea so they get both ends of the deal - the sub fee *and* the RMT money. Come on people. It's clear as crystal. The only thing SOE is dedicated to is their bottom line. If they *really* cared, they would be putting more effort into improving some of the games under their umbrella for the players who still loyally play them in hopes that they will. But they don't. They just soak up whatever revenue they can while doing the absolute minimum with them. As for those saying that it's "urban legends" or "myths" that RMT can have an adverse effect on the game... you're full of it. I've seen it happen, before and after, in FFXI, as one example. RMT was running rampant in that game for a while, inflation was out of control, and it was driving people away - especially new players. The lowest level, newbie gear was out of reach for many new players as they simply couldn't make enough to afford it. So they gave up. And don't even get me started on the higher level rare stuff. RMT groups would actively and openly monopolize certain named mobs who dropped these items, 24/7, so they controlled the market on them, driving the prices up and up and up to the point that people would feel they had no choice *but* to buy the money if they were ever to get one. They would routinely mob-train competing groups of legit players also trying to get claim of the mob. It was to the point that SE altered the mob aggro code so that could no longer happen. But the RMT is harmless right? Has no effect on the game or on legit players, right? It's all just a myth. Yeah.. just keep those blinders on. SE finally got serious and started aggressively combatting it, removing billions upon billions of ill-intended gil from the economy and making a few in-game changes to certain high-demand items... The result? The economy has come back down to earth; it's now lower in many cases than it was even when I first started 4+ years ago at the NA PC launch. Items that were in the millions are now under 1 mil in price. People just starting out can actually realistically afford gear now that was once out of their reach. So believe whatever you want. Tell yourself whatever you will about how "harmless RMT is on a game". I've seen empirical evidence of it with my own two eyes that it absolutely does have an effect. Of course, I speak only for those of us who believe in playing the game and not buying our way through. It does sorta amuse me when the people whose progress in a game can be tracked back to charges on their credit card or bank statement, beyond the sub fee, insist RMT has no affect on the game. Well of course not.. Not for you. Not when you see everything you want in the game as "just a transaction away" and buy your achievements instead of actually playing the game as designed. For those who actually still believe in *playing* the game and don't feel entitled to "keep up because they have a job and can't play as much" it has a very real effect. I've seen both extremes of it. So, no, it's not "urban legend" or myth. It's quite real. Though, I realize it's hard to see that when you won't look past your own nose. I've read all the reasons and rationales and excuses. It all comes back to "I don't want to have to put in the same effort others do to get what I want, so I shouldn't have to. ANd as long as I get what I want out of it, who cares how anyone else is affected by it". The classic "me me me" attitude.
Heh... As though we needed another example of how low SOE will go for the almighty $$$. *snip* I've read all the reasons and rationales and excuses. It all comes back to "I don't want to have to put in the same effort others do to get what I want, so I shouldn't have to. ANd as long as I get what I want out of it, who cares how anyone else is affected by it". The classic "me me me" attitude.
QFT
I couldnt have put this better myself.
Its interesting that in these discussions, the 'against' always come off as really emotional and the 'for' come off as seeming generally interested in a reasoned discussion.
That said, no matter how many people 'quote for truth', there is nothing empirical about 'what you see with your own eyes'. That is annecdotal. You are giving *your opinion* of what you observed in FFXI. There are a million variables you are overlooking and any number of conclusions that could be drawn that arent the same as yours.
Some basic concepts need to be agreed upon or these discussions just come down to inflamed ideologues of one type or another screaming from the mountain while their like minded supporters cheer them on and their detractors either leave the debate or jeer equally loudly.
The first is that people ALWAYS look out for themselves and look for the path of least resistance. This is human nature hard wired into our DNA and there really isnt anything wrong with this basic instinct. If you claim you're immune, you're a liar. Perhaps in *online games* you are some self perceived shining beacon of virtue, but I suspect that *somewhere in life* (probably somewhere a LOT more important), you are cutting a corner or acting out of self interest. If not, then congratulations - you are in the fractional percentage of super humans.
The second is that corporations exist to provide profit to their shareholders and an income to those who work for them. ALL of us work for SOME corporation unless we're self employed, UNemployed, or govt employed (which amts to the same b/c govt cash comes from TAXES which come from corp/employees income). If a corporation being driven by profit is somehow a disturbing shock to you, you have some issues to work through if you want to live under capitalism.
And keep in mind, I doubt many "cooperative" social models would place a high importance on video gaming and let you spend 12 hrs a day talking about, complaining about, and playing MMOs since the majority of people on earth think this is all childish BS. Maybe the corporate model isnt so bad, eh?
All of these drives - the drive for profit, the drive of self interest, the tendency of people to be lazy - they can all be dangerous and destructive. Society is about people coming together and agreeing on rational limits to keep humanity as a whole healthy. Inevitably the lines move over time one way or the other and folks exist who choose to break/stretch the rules.
What most suggest here, because they have a VERY extreme viewpoint, is that HUGE effort be put in to completely counteracting two of the basic drives, rather than SOME effort being put in to LIMITING the impact of these drives while also SATISFYING another (profit).
If the devs were to say "no more new content or bug fixes for X number of months while we completely re-engineer the system to stop farmING and then we'll probably have a yearly blackout to block whatever they come up with", MAYBE the zealots on these threads would cheer. DOUBTFUL as I suspect the disgruntled are always disgruntled. MOST players would say 'huh?' and then eventually get annoyed with lack of bug fixes, bored with lack of content, and leave.
The game with the most farming (WoW) has the highest subscriber base (by FAR) and makes the most money. The game where farming is legendary, Lineage, is solidly number 2. Games with official RMT from day one THRIVE (Second Life). What does this tell you about the importance of this issue? (no matter HOW impt it is to you). Thats pretty empirical.
EQ2, like FFXI, has a very insignificant number of subs. So the sample size becomes much more specific. It is possible that the only folks left playing these niche games are comitted game zealots. Or at least some sizeable percentage is. In this case, if you're down to like 100,000 people and 20% of them feel this is a HUGE issue, then the corporation has no choice but to do SOMETHING.
What I wonder though, is why the emphasis on RMT and farmERS. I suppose all of you still want the mechanisms in place to allow legitimate farmING, right? So its ok for players who have the luxury of 200hrs a week of play time to monopolize the market for high end items. Just as long as its not some guy in China doing it for cash. Or perhaps there should just be no high end items and no differentiation at all? After all, not everyone has the same amount of money or same amount of playtime, therefore everything should be artificially leveled and a standard grey suit can be handed out at lvl 1.
I dont see how you can even begin to address RMT in a reasonable way without speaking to this broader discussion. In life, self interest causes people to always envy those who have more than them (doesnt really matter if you have $1, or $1M, someone always has more). In life, there isnt a lot you can do about it short of becoming some sort of revolutionary (which always ends stupidly and badly) or some sort of criminal (which is very high risk).
In persistent world gaming, the same psychological drivers are there, but the rules are different. There is an almighty you can complain to about "unfairness" - the developers who, in this case, are "god". You can ask the universe to change its rules.
So if you're going to ask the universe to change its rules, what are you asking for specifically? "No farmers!" just trades one inequity (folks with more cash than time) for another (folks with more time than cash)
Wow!! Such a thorough bashing of ignorance. I wish I was as eloquent. It's heartening to see someone well educated in the ways of the world speak up.
Now if we could only kick the village idiots out of our village, we could live happier lives. (After all, we wouldn't have as much stress from idiots trying to create mountains out of molehills.)
OK, what happens when your officially sanctioned RMT gear is nerfed by SOE's capricious developers?
What happens when, on the whim (or mistake) of some codejockey some item is debased that you've paid actual money for?
I know that there have been RL lawsuits over virtual transactions/items/property in Second Life.
When we talk about real money, we're talking about people getting pissed when they discover that they've been ripped off, particularly by the corporation running the entire show, and profits from RMT.
This to me is an incredible can of worms. Restricting it to specific servers might give it the air of being a voluntary thing...but you can bet that there's someone with deep pockets and a law degree out there who can smell an opportunity here to get in on the game as well. I"m not talking about the game everyone else is playing, but Smedley's "let's pick the pockets of our customers" game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Never bring a disgruntled SWG vet into a discussion about Sony...it degenerates into an accusation of how the company robs, pillages and roughs up puppies.
If a company wants RMT, then they understand the risks of what they're doing. You did not attend the meetings that happened prior to the policy, you did not read the risk assessments that would've been produced, nor did you see the financial projections of what the move meant. You are working on limit knowledge of the inner working of the company and basing your argument on personal bias.
They change something you bought, then take them to small claims court. You may even get your money back, though not the time you put into the effort. It's not that difficult to do...to win, well that's a bit more of a problem.
If a company wants RMT, then they understand the risks of what they're doing. You did not attend the meetings that happened prior to the policy, you did not read the risk assessments that would've been produced, nor did you see the financial projections of what the move meant. You are working on limit knowledge of the inner working of the company and basing your argument on personal bias.
Oh, I don't think so.
I think they see dollar signs, and think they can use a EULA as a shield to save them from dealing with the consequences of their actions. SOE thought they were covered with the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion, when they advertised it to their players with features they KNEW they would removed from the game only a few weeks after they released it. Their customers knew they had been ripped off, rage was building, and eventually formal legal action would have resulted. It took only a short time before SOE took the unprecedented step of offering refunds on ToOW, something they stated flat out before they'd never do, in the face of this firestorm of their own creation.
Their vaunted risk assesment abilites seem to have failed them then, a consequence of their own greed.
In China (admittedly not the US) courts have held that if you pay real money for virtual items, there are real money consquences for messing with virutal items.
Second Life has had to deal with this, and the courts have not dismissed legal action against them out of hand. Paying real money for virtual items opens up a new can of worms.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I disagree with your example. Star Wars is a different set of circumstances, they probably didn't have to refund people for the pre-order, they did to attempt to salvage any shred of their now defunct reputation. It did not go to court, and I feel that the courts would side with the company. Admittedly this is because I feel that the American legal system is heavily biased towards companies at the moment.
And yes they see dollar signs, but any decision made in a large company is done with a risk assessment attached to it. So I still stand by my claim that they have thought out the possible ramifications of this move.
The second is that corporations exist to provide profit to their shareholders and an income to those who work for them. ALL of us work for SOME corporation unless we're self employed, UNemployed, or govt employed (which amts to the same b/c govt cash comes from TAXES which come from corp/employees income). If a corporation being driven by profit is somehow a disturbing shock to you, you have some issues to work through if you want to live under capitalism.
The issue is not about company making profit, but about milking its customer base of its money. SOE can make enough money of subs as it is, there is no need to try and tap into RMT market and earn more money at the cost of alienating its client base or encouraging farming and excessive playing.
Imagine you go to a movie. You paid for the ticket, so you expect to see a movie. But, every 10 minutes they show commercials. Wouldnt you be angry? You paid your money for the ticket. That should be enough, there is no other reason to show adds during showtime other then excessive cash milking.
What most suggest here, because they have a VERY extreme viewpoint, is that HUGE effort be put in to completely counteracting two of the basic drives, rather than SOME effort being put in to LIMITING the impact of these drives while also SATISFYING another (profit).
If the devs were to say "no more new content or bug fixes for X number of months while we completely re-engineer the system to stop farmING and then we'll probably have a yearly blackout to block whatever they come up with", MAYBE the zealots on these threads would cheer. DOUBTFUL as I suspect the disgruntled are always disgruntled. MOST players would say 'huh?' and then eventually get annoyed with lack of bug fixes, bored with lack of content, and leave.
I believe your opinion here is the extreme one. I mean, what is the point of video games? Its to have fun, right? So how can you have fun if the game suddenly lets someone with a fat wallet instantly make his character extremely powerful? The whole challenge of ANY competition is to test your skills, NOT your bank account. Imagine Olympic sports allowing for sportsmen to use steroids... but only if they can afford to pay a really big penalty fee. Some will be able to afford it. but would that sport be fair and fun? No.
In any video game, there HAS to be equal opportunity - your bank account should not have any weight in it. If something is really hard to get (rare item for example), then if I do overcome the challenge and obtain that item, I want to be proud of my achievement, I want to know that if someone else also has that item, that means that they also had to go through the same challenge. if they can just buy that item, then the whole point of the game becomes invalid.
Furthermore, the fact that some people are able to "bypass" normal means of obtaining something forces others to do so as well - you gotta be competitive or quit playing. Next thing you know, people without money leave the game altogether, and people with money keep buying new items. Who wins? the company that takes service fee for each transaction, because since every single item is virtual, they dont really have to spend ANY resources making it. Who is the biggest losers? regular players, because they have to spend extra time farming for items they normally wouldnt be forced to do so. The only alternative to that would be buying those items - spending more and more real cash on something that doesnt really exist. This is a perfect scenario for SOE - clients spend time and effort while the company earns a profit. SOE just couldnt resist that one.
The game with the most farming (WoW) has the highest subscriber base (by FAR) and makes the most money. The game where farming is legendary, Lineage, is solidly number 2. Games with official RMT from day one THRIVE (Second Life). What does this tell you about the importance of this issue? (no matter HOW impt it is to you). Thats pretty empirical.
I think your logic is in wrong order. Its not most farming=highest subs. Rather, Highest subs=most farming. Its common logic. Also, I doubt highly you can call Second Life as THRIVING.
EQ2, like FFXI, has a very insignificant number of subs. So the sample size becomes much more specific. It is possible that the only folks left playing these niche games are comitted game zealots. Or at least some sizeable percentage is. In this case, if you're down to like 100,000 people and 20% of them feel this is a HUGE issue, then the corporation has no choice but to do SOMETHING.
Here I agree with you.
What I wonder though, is why the emphasis on RMT and farmERS. I suppose all of you still want the mechanisms in place to allow legitimate farmING, right? So its ok for players who have the luxury of 200hrs a week of play time to monopolize the market for high end items. Just as long as its not some guy in China doing it for cash. Or perhaps there should just be no high end items and no differentiation at all? After all, not everyone has the same amount of money or same amount of playtime, therefore everything should be artificially leveled and a standard grey suit can be handed out at lvl 1.
No, its not OK to make someone who can spend 200hrs a week to monopolize the market. But its not OK to promote unfair competition either. Lets resort to common logic:
Lets assume the game has 100000 active casual players and 1000 active hardcore players.
Scenario A:
The game has strict anti-farming policy. no RMT whatsoever. Most likely all 1000 hardcore players would have most of the high end items. They would split their time between farming, PvPing, trading, exploring and what have you.
Scenario B:
No strict anti-farming policy OR there is a legit RMT system. Most hardcore players would be spending a lot more time farming now, due to the fact that RMT allows them to actually make good money. Furthermore, a lot of casual players would try to do the same because suddenly a large number of high end items are on the market available to anyone who can purchase it (no effort involved). Some players will not have the luxury of that added effort nor can they afford money to purchase those items.
Result? Scenario B has a lot more high end items. A lot of people are doing excessive farming. There will be much bigger rift between different types of players: hardcore, casuals who can afford the extra effort or money and casuals who cant afford it.
Scenario B will have a vastly greater number of cases where one player will have unfair advantage over another.
I dont see how you can even begin to address RMT in a reasonable way without speaking to this broader discussion. In life, self interest causes people to always envy those who have more than them (doesnt really matter if you have $1, or $1M, someone always has more). In life, there isnt a lot you can do about it short of becoming some sort of revolutionary (which always ends stupidly and badly) or some sort of criminal (which is very high risk).
In persistent world gaming, the same psychological drivers are there, but the rules are different. There is an almighty you can complain to about "unfairness" - the developers who, in this case, are "god". You can ask the universe to change its rules.
So if you're going to ask the universe to change its rules, what are you asking for specifically? "No farmers!" just trades one inequity (folks with more cash than time) for another (folks with more time than cash)
The "fair" type of competition is when the game allows you be equally competitive with anyone else without the influence of external factors like bank account. After all, the games we play were made for us to level our characters by investing our time into fighting, trading, manufacturing, harvesting, exploring, traveling. Show me one game where it was written on the box "Join the endless adventure directly connected with your bank account, the richer you are - the more powerful you get".
The ONLY inequity that is fair in this case - when a person has more time and/or skills then the other. And THATS what the spirit of competition is, spend more time to increase your skills to become a better player, not spend more time and money to buy your top character with uber gear in 5 minutes. Are these games about competition of skills or bank accounts?
As regarding companies making selling legal is ok with me and they give people the oppertunity to not be scammed. Thousands of people get scammed every day by so called people selling stuff... they never see the money again so a legal trusted third party company provides a safer environment for all players who decide to spend their real life money to get advantage over the hardcore players that wants to earn it themselves.
It's fairly simple to get rid of the majority of farmers in all games as long as the creators of the game is willing to change the game mechanics.
The monsters, spaceships drop stuff all the time... stupid really... I mean even animals drop stuff and money remove the gold drop from wandering monsters and just make the quest monsters have stuff drop and cash drop. Ofcourse the farmers will probably try to create a marco which enable them to send their character to quest as well.
Spaceships as in EVE when they blow up would most likely in reality never leave anything but scrap to salvage and the bounty systems is so stupid I can never understand why it is there at all. In fantasy games give the npc inteligent creatures which would be using money tp drop a few coins and only bosses drops items of any value.. the rest an axe worth a few bucks... the farmers would have to have an insane amount of farming to be able to get anywhere.
Another issue is crafting stuff... people would ofcourse sell the minerals but then again... make the raw materials unable to transact between players then onyl the finished item however also a limit of how much a person can craft everyday would make it more balanced.
The amount of stuff and money in most mmo games is way too much... if it was in real world the inflation would be insane.
Also to prevent that items which is unique can be sold it's should not be possible to remove it from the account at all.
However I still support the fact that people should be able to buy an account with all it's belongings and it should be legalized in all mmo.
If a person has too much money to dump on a mmo let him do so.
But as for game balance the game creators are not creative enough to find a solution to this.. I would go as far as saying they are actually not willing to stop this at all... because if people can buy everything for real money who needs to play to get any stuff anyway.
The only thing is that I pity all those who get scammed by other players everyday... they ruin the games in the end.
If I had the power I would probably round them all up and send them to a place they don't want to be. Shame on you guys.
As for pve there is not balancing needed because you're playing against the computer anyway and it don't mind loosing because you had all the uber stuff in the world... in pvp however some players has an unfair advantage not because they're skilled but they have a huge wallet.
I hope in the future there will be a mmo that is very balanced when it comes to pvp so far I've tried a huge bunch and well the powerdude will almost always win.
So in short I appeal to the game creators to be a little more interested in actually making a good game instead of counting the cash... however as long as the game company is interested in one thing as most humans are earning money... mmo will always be unbalanced and have scammers, cheaters, farmers or whatever...
Please don't blame the evils of human nature on bad game design. The scammers and such are going to go on no matter how good the game design. There's absolutely nothing the game designers can do to stop this. They can block spammers and offers in game, sue companies that attempt to violate contractual agreements, and ban the accounts of those that make use of services not allowed by the agreed upon contract.
I read a lot of ranting about how companies are just in it for the 'almighty dollar.' Yes, they are. The same reason you go to work every day, they work their asses off making the best mediocre game they can in hopes that they will get a loyal customer base. In an attempt to retain customers, make their own lives easier, and maybe -- just maybe! -- make a little more money, they might support a sanctioned form of RMT. Does this make them evil? Does it make a terrible game? Nope. Just makes them human (just like the rest of us).
Oh, and guess what? That dollar they're chasing is just as artificial as those games we all play. When was the last time you could take a piece of paper money to a bank and exchange for its equivalent in a precious metal? That dollar is only as valuable as the time it took you to earn it. My time may or may not be more valuable than the dollar I spend or earn buying or selling in-game currencies. Because I have 500 platinum pieces to my name doesn't give me a better character than anyone else. I still have to grind my toon up to level 80 just like everyone else. (Sorry, but those that buy toons generally take as much time really learning that toon as getting those levels to begin with. Exceptions do exist to my rule of thumb as always.)
For those complaining about how RMT ruins a game, these RPGs are not the places to look for your arguements. If anything, RMT actually makes things more interesting and fun when done right in RPGs. (As usual, exceptions can exist.) Look to the web-based games and micro-transaction fee games. There you will see games that can and have been completely broken by such methods. I'll use Travian as an example. (Travian is a web-based RTS that plays out over months: up to a year or more in some cases.) Originally, you got a plus account that let you do a few more things, but it wasn't an advantage that couldn't be overcome by resourceful players. Sometime into the game's life, they introduced a gold system where you could literally buy your development. Certain limits on this exist, but as long as the player is willing to pony up the money, they get better resource production, stronger armies, and chances to instantly build up villages. A great player going it completely free of charge will do better than most that are paying, but they'll never win.
In the end, I only have questions to ask. Why is it that players hate RMT systems, especially when they have options to avoid it? The only answers I can see are ones that I don't want to post here. (Everyone else has already posted them, even if they can't see the responses in the response.)
I am passionately against RMT because when I choose to play a game that forbids it, other players violate the rules and my rights to play in such a venue.
The real question should be, why don't gamers who desire RMT stick with games that support it?
Smedley's whole shtick is about how this helps players when it really serves SOE and that is why people are offended by his comments.
Please don't blame the evils of human nature on bad game design. The scammers and such are going to go on no matter how good the game design. There's absolutely nothing the game designers can do to stop this. They can block spammers and offers in game, sue companies that attempt to violate contractual agreements, and ban the accounts of those that make use of services not allowed by the agreed upon contract.
I agree with the above. Before we can actually identify each unique individual on the internet, we cannot stop scammers/spammers/farmers/hackers. The only half-reliable way to filter out farmers abusing free trials is to enter credit card info. But, many people (myself including) are often reluctant to do so. Even still, CC info is not 100% scammer proof.
I read a lot of ranting about how companies are just in it for the 'almighty dollar.' Yes, they are. The same reason you go to work every day, they work their asses off making the best mediocre game they can in hopes that they will get a loyal customer base. In an attempt to retain customers, make their own lives easier, and maybe -- just maybe! -- make a little more money, they might support a sanctioned form of RMT. Does this make them evil? Does it make a terrible game? Nope. Just makes them human (just like the rest of us).
You are missing a point, its not about earning a buck, its about doing anything.. literally ANYTHING to earn 1 buck MORE then they are earning right now. Any MMORPG company earns enough from their monthly subscription plus the box price. There should be absolutely no reason for in-game advertisement, RMT, premium accounts or anything that would give one player a noticable advantage over another by artificial means (as in using real money to buy/improve your character). If a company cannot earn enough money to sustain the game from their monthly subscription, then theres something horribly wrong with its financial books.
Example: I work for a company that does translations of documents into English. For some customers, theres an easier and much cheaper way to do what they need to do. When I serve those customers, I advice them to take the cheaper/easier road. I could do it the other way, more expensive one. They wouldnt know, and I wouldnt break any laws or regulations. Its perfectly legal. but it would be UNETHICAL.
Same here, squeezing that extra buck to give some Joe with rich daddy an advantage in something so trivial as a computer game, which supposed to be fun, is simply UNETHICAL. If you agree with RMT, you either BOUGHT from it, or you SOLD on it. If you dont buy or sell virtual items for real currency, you take away fun from people that dont do it.
Oh, and guess what? That dollar they're chasing is just as artificial as those games we all play. When was the last time you could take a piece of paper money to a bank and exchange for its equivalent in a precious metal? That dollar is only as valuable as the time it took you to earn it. My time may or may not be more valuable than the dollar I spend or earn buying or selling in-game currencies. Because I have 500 platinum pieces to my name doesn't give me a better character than anyone else. I still have to grind my toon up to level 80 just like everyone else. (Sorry, but those that buy toons generally take as much time really learning that toon as getting those levels to begin with. Exceptions do exist to my rule of thumb as always.)
Good example.. Now imagine what would happen if suddenly ALL fake money would be made LEGIT. If you are not in a business that makes fake money, wouldnt you be pissed that your neighbor suddenly became a millionaire JUST because his printer is really good? Im sure you would feel left out. Any discrimination feels crappy, and this is discrimination - the rich will become more powerful while the poor just look on helplessly. After awhile, they unsubscribe and uninstall.
For those complaining about how RMT ruins a game, these RPGs are not the places to look for your arguements. If anything, RMT actually makes things more interesting and fun when done right in RPGs. (As usual, exceptions can exist.) Look to the web-based games and micro-transaction fee games. There you will see games that can and have been completely broken by such methods. I'll use Travian as an example. (Travian is a web-based RTS that plays out over months: up to a year or more in some cases.) Originally, you got a plus account that let you do a few more things, but it wasn't an advantage that couldn't be overcome by resourceful players. Sometime into the game's life, they introduced a gold system where you could literally buy your development. Certain limits on this exist, but as long as the player is willing to pony up the money, they get better resource production, stronger armies, and chances to instantly build up villages. A great player going it completely free of charge will do better than most that are paying, but they'll never win.
I haven't tried any web games, so I cannot comment there. The ONLY exception to RMT that doesnt really bother me is in Eve. As far as I know, you cant "twink" your character n anyway, you can just buy your monthly subscription with in-game currency. This way you can play for free if you are successful in-game AND, at the same time, it doesnt really affect my character in any way... as far as I know that is. Any other system that does affect your character or your gameplay do cause unequal opportunities, thus making fun less fun and more farm.
In the end, I only have questions to ask. Why is it that players hate RMT systems, especially when they have options to avoid it? The only answers I can see are ones that I don't want to post here. (Everyone else has already posted them, even if they can't see the responses in the response.)
How an I avoid it if someone else is doing it right in front of me? This is not a single player game, any action from me, you and the rest of the world affect ALL of us one way or another. Playing with someone who used RMT is JUST LIKE PLAYING WITH A HACKER - you have no control over the hacker, you cannot influence him, you cannot tell him to stop, you cannot compete with him unless you start hacking. Not to say RMT kills immersion! Thats killer of any decent roleplay right there!
I hope people will understand that RMT brings a lot more negative aspects for those who dont like it then positive ones to those who do. The fact that any given game supports any kind of RMT eventually will make the game virtually unplayable by spammer farmers. It doesnt matter if the game will have separate servers with/without RMT - those nasty farmers will just keep popping trial accounts and spamming servers that supposedly forbid RMT.
I call a challenge to RMT supporters - answer the following question honestly please:
- Have you ever bought virtual currency for real money in a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG?
PS: Im being specific with the term "virtual currency" because I dont want people to say they bought expansions, additional premium content or any other content that isnt available by normal means.
You know, SOE has already maximized profit when they screwed a couple 100k of player out of SWG. If they expect anything from the public to pay for their broke down games, they are fooling themselves. I have watched them release some nice game, then turn around after initial sales, and the 14-20 month lifespan of the casual MMO player, and screw the game so badly that nobody wants to play it. They DO NOT care about the gaming community, only themselves.
I know business is business, but I think the MMO players out there ,are about tired of stupid companies taking advantage of us. I truely hope that other MMO companies that were listed in that meeting, do not go the route of "Smedly the terrible".
If SOE was even the slightest bit concerned with anything but profit, they would get back some playerbase, but as it stands right now, this looks like a desperate move to try and gain back some income from their ever failing business decions makers. After the SWG collapse, every MMO they have touched has turned to failure. Either Smedley Needs to go, or whomever is hiring the quacks who think that a Survey on a Target Audience is correct. Matrix online was a failure, SWG a failure after the CU/NGE, Etc,,,Etc,,, a very obvious trend. I think that Filing with the insurance companies on Profeitt/Loss, is making them more than the actual games.
It is always been said that any press is good press, this is just another example of Marketing tactics on SOE's part. If BIOWARE-Austin and other companies Start lettng SOE produce and exploit their games, then I fear a Great drought in this Industry is coming. I just wish Bill Gates or somone with the Financial backing could step forward and create the Next Generation of Video games and run all the competitors out of business.
They are now talking about Implementing the Gameguard Type hackshield into the New line of Next Generation Processors, it seem like the Companies have learned something from the Communist Party about controlling the population. You WILL, buy our virtual items, you WILL use the antihack software, you WILL put up with the constant ruining of online gaming Communities, Etc,,,Etc,,
It is like the gas prices to me as a gamer, I want to play them so I HAVE to pay. You have to drive to work, therefore you WILL pay that 4-6$ a gallon.
Take this Advice SOE, Fire Smedley, Get some real programmers with Innovative thought, Listen to the Voices of Gamers, Not Survey/Research companies and Just keep making the Kiddie Consoles, Stay out of our MMO market, it will be nothing but more dissappointments if you don't.
The Live Gamer thing is nothing but a joke. The more I read about it, the more pissed I become. Any Company that make a Deal with them looses my business, and I may be only one person, but after 20 years of Gaming, I think I have a large Circle that spreads around the world, and remember the Rules of Marketing.
You can Make one person happy and they will tell A friend, But you piss off one and he tells ten, and they tell ten, etc, etc,,,
Comments
Bind on acquire would reflect my idea here. Since RMT are going to be hidden as well in game in every market, I would expand it to the whole market, but without expanded or not, anything is better than nothing. Speculation hurt the RMT themselves, althought on a superficial level, they are the one doing it the most and the best, and should be the one benefacting from them. But if you take a deeper layer of understanding, speculation on a first layer hurt the casuals, but in the long run, anything which hurt the casuals hurt everyone else in the game.
You buy, you keep. Simple, efficient, and fullfilling the goal of the market, which is the trade of goods for peoples who need them. The more this system work without interferance, the better everyone, including the RMT, would be. Happier and healthy casuals reflect in many ways. (of course, if 1 RMT does speculate and other doesn't...those who don't are shafted badly).
See, unlike some who are officially hunting goldsellers, I see them as my friends. And if a friend is doing something which hurt himself and other, I have to try to put some sense into their head so they stop hurting other first, and second, themselves. A bind on equip would not remove RMT, it would complicated their existance granted. But it would in fact remove most speculation and artificial inflation from the game. A serious RMT organisation would want to see such a feature, as it may outright kill some competition in the same time...and me; I care mostly for the casuals and the game overall health.
I am not the best at explanations however...so I will try the simple equation...
Bind on equip = 99% speculation decrease = less inflation = casuals purchasing more items they want = more real trades = more troubles and complexity for speculators and RMT = less speculators = more careful planning = better game = more casuals = more business for RMT (and less competition) (The more REAL trades happen, the more they want, the more they want, the more business as well for RMT)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Why is everyone making such a big deal out of this like it's something new? Sony has been running the Station Exchange servers for over 2 years now. This is just switching the process to a new company.
I play on one of the servers, and I love the exchange. I make well over 300 bucks a week selling plat on the game.
Heh... As though we needed another example of how low SOE will go for the almighty $$$.
It's a wonderful spin they put on it. "We're doing it to help the players from getting scammed". They're just doing what's best for their subscribers. Aww how thoughtful. They said the same thing of the NGE and we all know how that was received. But, surely SOE *must* be totally honest and looking out for their loyal customers, right?
No they're not.
They're embracing the idea so they get both ends of the deal - the sub fee *and* the RMT money. Come on people. It's clear as crystal. The only thing SOE is dedicated to is their bottom line. If they *really* cared, they would be putting more effort into improving some of the games under their umbrella for the players who still loyally play them in hopes that they will. But they don't. They just soak up whatever revenue they can while doing the absolute minimum with them. Meanwhile, they're negotiating deals with some RMT company to expand their "sanctioned RMT" business. Yeah, their hearts are really with the players.
As for those saying that it's "urban legends" or "myths" that RMT can have an adverse effect on the game... you're full of it. I've seen it happen, before and after, in FFXI, as one example. RMT was running rampant in that game for a while, inflation was out of control, and it was driving people away - especially new players. The lowest level, newbie gear was out of reach for many new players as they simply couldn't make enough to afford it. So they gave up.
And don't even get me started on the higher level rare stuff. RMT groups would actively and openly monopolize certain named mobs who dropped these items, 24/7, so they controlled the market on them, driving the prices up and up and up to the point that people would feel they had no choice *but* to buy the money if they were ever to get one. They would routinely mob-train competing groups of legit players also trying to get claim of the mob. It was to the point that SE altered the mob aggro code so that could no longer happen. But the RMT is harmless right? Has no effect on the game or on legit players, right? It's all just a myth. Yeah.. just keep those blinders on.
See, it's not only the economy that's screwed with. The tactics RMT groups use to get their gil are often intrusive to other players as well - monopolizing mobs, overrunning areas, flooding market with certain items that they can fish/craft/farm 24/7... and on and on. Some have gone as far as trying to hack accounts. So when you're supporting RMT in a game not designed with it in mind (ie. Second Life, etc), you're also condoning those kinds of actions. Good job.
SE finally got serious and started aggressively combatting it in FFXI, removing billions upon billions of ill-intended gil from the economy and making a few in-game changes to certain high-demand items... The result? The economy has come back down to earth; it's now lower in many cases than it was even when I first started 4+ years ago at the NA PC launch. Items that were in the millions are now under 1 mil in price. People just starting out can actually realistically afford gear now that was once out of their reach.
See, that's the difference.
SE, Blizzard, and other companies see RMT for the problem it is, from all angles, and the effect it has on their players long term and aggressively combat it.
SOE sees RMT only as untapped $$$ in their pockets and embrace it wholeheartedly - while still having the gall to try coming out smelling like a rose by saying they're "doing it to protect the players". They're not protecting anyone.. last I checked "non-sanctioned" RMT was alive and well in EQ2. SOE's merely getting their cut of the pie.
So believe whatever you want. Tell yourself whatever you will about how "harmless RMT is on a game". I've seen empirical evidence of it with my own two eyes that it absolutely does have an effect. Of course, I speak only for those of us who believe in playing the game and not buying our way through.
It does sorta amuse me when the people whose progress in a game can be tracked back to charges on their credit card or bank statement, beyond the sub fee, insist RMT has no affect on the game. Well of course not.. Not for you. Not when you see everything you want in the game as "just a transaction away" and buy your achievements instead of actually playing the game as designed. For those who actually still believe in *playing* the game and don't feel entitled to "keep up because they have a job and can't play as much" it has a very real effect. I've seen both extremes of it. So, no, it's not "urban legend" or myth. It's quite real. Though, I realize it's hard to see that when you won't look past your own nose.
I've read all the reasons and rationales and excuses. It all comes back to "I don't want to have to put in the same effort others do to get what I want, so I shouldn't have to. ANd as long as I get what I want out of it, who cares how anyone else is affected by it". The classic "me me me" attitude.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Strange how Smedley says this new service will be better because it can deal with fraud more effectively since most fraud occurs overseas and acknowledges that Blizzard did the right thing by suing Peons4hire, an American company, yet he can't explain why SOE has never sued Playerauctions, also an American company, which made millions off of sponsoring classic EQ gold sales when Ebay removed them.
It's just more bullshit.
Originally posted by Hexxeity
Because with sanctioned RMT, they get a cut of the transaction PLUS two subscriptions (the farmer and the buyer).
And they don't have to worry about balancing the amount of currency coming into the game, as it is all earned legitimately, as opposed to being "created from nothing" when someone buys gold from them directly.
I don't like any form of RMT, but it's true that the Roma Victor and item shop game models of creating items and gold for sale out of thin air, is far worse for the game economy than buying from a famer that earned the item or gold legitimately in game thru expended effort.
Because Smedley and co don't count on people, like yourself, to look at the situation that closely or critically. They rely on the people who will buy into everything they're told and not question it. And, besides, if it means more $$$ in the end for them, what does a little hypocrisy matter?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It is obvious you don't understand the market. Despite the fact that you may dislike RMT, the simple fact of the matter is that you are in the minority. This is a thriving online business, and SOE recognizes that many of their customers desire the ability to participate in RMT transactions. In reality, SOE is most definately thinking about its customers first. You're just mad because they aren't thinking about YOU first.
I think I understand the market reasonably well and so does SOE. This is why there are only two RMT servers in EQ2 following the poll they did. This is why they did not at that time make them all RMT. I'd say that is better evidence than your presumtions about me being unhappy, etc.
He who hesitates is lost.
I couldnt have put this better myself.
QFTI couldnt have put this better myself.
Its interesting that in these discussions, the 'against' always come off as really emotional and the 'for' come off as seeming generally interested in a reasoned discussion.
That said, no matter how many people 'quote for truth', there is nothing empirical about 'what you see with your own eyes'. That is annecdotal. You are giving *your opinion* of what you observed in FFXI. There are a million variables you are overlooking and any number of conclusions that could be drawn that arent the same as yours.
Some basic concepts need to be agreed upon or these discussions just come down to inflamed ideologues of one type or another screaming from the mountain while their like minded supporters cheer them on and their detractors either leave the debate or jeer equally loudly.
The first is that people ALWAYS look out for themselves and look for the path of least resistance. This is human nature hard wired into our DNA and there really isnt anything wrong with this basic instinct. If you claim you're immune, you're a liar. Perhaps in *online games* you are some self perceived shining beacon of virtue, but I suspect that *somewhere in life* (probably somewhere a LOT more important), you are cutting a corner or acting out of self interest. If not, then congratulations - you are in the fractional percentage of super humans.
The second is that corporations exist to provide profit to their shareholders and an income to those who work for them. ALL of us work for SOME corporation unless we're self employed, UNemployed, or govt employed (which amts to the same b/c govt cash comes from TAXES which come from corp/employees income). If a corporation being driven by profit is somehow a disturbing shock to you, you have some issues to work through if you want to live under capitalism.
And keep in mind, I doubt many "cooperative" social models would place a high importance on video gaming and let you spend 12 hrs a day talking about, complaining about, and playing MMOs since the majority of people on earth think this is all childish BS. Maybe the corporate model isnt so bad, eh?
All of these drives - the drive for profit, the drive of self interest, the tendency of people to be lazy - they can all be dangerous and destructive. Society is about people coming together and agreeing on rational limits to keep humanity as a whole healthy. Inevitably the lines move over time one way or the other and folks exist who choose to break/stretch the rules.
What most suggest here, because they have a VERY extreme viewpoint, is that HUGE effort be put in to completely counteracting two of the basic drives, rather than SOME effort being put in to LIMITING the impact of these drives while also SATISFYING another (profit).
If the devs were to say "no more new content or bug fixes for X number of months while we completely re-engineer the system to stop farmING and then we'll probably have a yearly blackout to block whatever they come up with", MAYBE the zealots on these threads would cheer. DOUBTFUL as I suspect the disgruntled are always disgruntled. MOST players would say 'huh?' and then eventually get annoyed with lack of bug fixes, bored with lack of content, and leave.
The game with the most farming (WoW) has the highest subscriber base (by FAR) and makes the most money. The game where farming is legendary, Lineage, is solidly number 2. Games with official RMT from day one THRIVE (Second Life). What does this tell you about the importance of this issue? (no matter HOW impt it is to you). Thats pretty empirical.
EQ2, like FFXI, has a very insignificant number of subs. So the sample size becomes much more specific. It is possible that the only folks left playing these niche games are comitted game zealots. Or at least some sizeable percentage is. In this case, if you're down to like 100,000 people and 20% of them feel this is a HUGE issue, then the corporation has no choice but to do SOMETHING.
What I wonder though, is why the emphasis on RMT and farmERS. I suppose all of you still want the mechanisms in place to allow legitimate farmING, right? So its ok for players who have the luxury of 200hrs a week of play time to monopolize the market for high end items. Just as long as its not some guy in China doing it for cash. Or perhaps there should just be no high end items and no differentiation at all? After all, not everyone has the same amount of money or same amount of playtime, therefore everything should be artificially leveled and a standard grey suit can be handed out at lvl 1.
I dont see how you can even begin to address RMT in a reasonable way without speaking to this broader discussion. In life, self interest causes people to always envy those who have more than them (doesnt really matter if you have $1, or $1M, someone always has more). In life, there isnt a lot you can do about it short of becoming some sort of revolutionary (which always ends stupidly and badly) or some sort of criminal (which is very high risk).
In persistent world gaming, the same psychological drivers are there, but the rules are different. There is an almighty you can complain to about "unfairness" - the developers who, in this case, are "god". You can ask the universe to change its rules.
So if you're going to ask the universe to change its rules, what are you asking for specifically? "No farmers!" just trades one inequity (folks with more cash than time) for another (folks with more time than cash)
Wow!! Such a thorough bashing of ignorance. I wish I was as eloquent. It's heartening to see someone well educated in the ways of the world speak up.
Now if we could only kick the village idiots out of our village, we could live happier lives. (After all, we wouldn't have as much stress from idiots trying to create mountains out of molehills.)
OK, what happens when your officially sanctioned RMT gear is nerfed by SOE's capricious developers?
What happens when, on the whim (or mistake) of some codejockey some item is debased that you've paid actual money for?
I know that there have been RL lawsuits over virtual transactions/items/property in Second Life.
When we talk about real money, we're talking about people getting pissed when they discover that they've been ripped off, particularly by the corporation running the entire show, and profits from RMT.
This to me is an incredible can of worms. Restricting it to specific servers might give it the air of being a voluntary thing...but you can bet that there's someone with deep pockets and a law degree out there who can smell an opportunity here to get in on the game as well. I"m not talking about the game everyone else is playing, but Smedley's "let's pick the pockets of our customers" game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Never bring a disgruntled SWG vet into a discussion about Sony...it degenerates into an accusation of how the company robs, pillages and roughs up puppies.
If a company wants RMT, then they understand the risks of what they're doing. You did not attend the meetings that happened prior to the policy, you did not read the risk assessments that would've been produced, nor did you see the financial projections of what the move meant. You are working on limit knowledge of the inner working of the company and basing your argument on personal bias.
They change something you bought, then take them to small claims court. You may even get your money back, though not the time you put into the effort. It's not that difficult to do...to win, well that's a bit more of a problem.
Oh, I don't think so.
I think they see dollar signs, and think they can use a EULA as a shield to save them from dealing with the consequences of their actions. SOE thought they were covered with the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion, when they advertised it to their players with features they KNEW they would removed from the game only a few weeks after they released it. Their customers knew they had been ripped off, rage was building, and eventually formal legal action would have resulted. It took only a short time before SOE took the unprecedented step of offering refunds on ToOW, something they stated flat out before they'd never do, in the face of this firestorm of their own creation.
Their vaunted risk assesment abilites seem to have failed them then, a consequence of their own greed.
In China (admittedly not the US) courts have held that if you pay real money for virtual items, there are real money consquences for messing with virutal items.
Second Life has had to deal with this, and the courts have not dismissed legal action against them out of hand. Paying real money for virtual items opens up a new can of worms.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I disagree with your example. Star Wars is a different set of circumstances, they probably didn't have to refund people for the pre-order, they did to attempt to salvage any shred of their now defunct reputation. It did not go to court, and I feel that the courts would side with the company. Admittedly this is because I feel that the American legal system is heavily biased towards companies at the moment.
And yes they see dollar signs, but any decision made in a large company is done with a risk assessment attached to it. So I still stand by my claim that they have thought out the possible ramifications of this move.
Imagine you go to a movie. You paid for the ticket, so you expect to see a movie. But, every 10 minutes they show commercials. Wouldnt you be angry? You paid your money for the ticket. That should be enough, there is no other reason to show adds during showtime other then excessive cash milking.
I believe your opinion here is the extreme one. I mean, what is the point of video games? Its to have fun, right? So how can you have fun if the game suddenly lets someone with a fat wallet instantly make his character extremely powerful? The whole challenge of ANY competition is to test your skills, NOT your bank account. Imagine Olympic sports allowing for sportsmen to use steroids... but only if they can afford to pay a really big penalty fee. Some will be able to afford it. but would that sport be fair and fun? No.
In any video game, there HAS to be equal opportunity - your bank account should not have any weight in it. If something is really hard to get (rare item for example), then if I do overcome the challenge and obtain that item, I want to be proud of my achievement, I want to know that if someone else also has that item, that means that they also had to go through the same challenge. if they can just buy that item, then the whole point of the game becomes invalid.
Furthermore, the fact that some people are able to "bypass" normal means of obtaining something forces others to do so as well - you gotta be competitive or quit playing. Next thing you know, people without money leave the game altogether, and people with money keep buying new items. Who wins? the company that takes service fee for each transaction, because since every single item is virtual, they dont really have to spend ANY resources making it. Who is the biggest losers? regular players, because they have to spend extra time farming for items they normally wouldnt be forced to do so. The only alternative to that would be buying those items - spending more and more real cash on something that doesnt really exist. This is a perfect scenario for SOE - clients spend time and effort while the company earns a profit. SOE just couldnt resist that one.
I think your logic is in wrong order. Its not most farming=highest subs. Rather, Highest subs=most farming. Its common logic. Also, I doubt highly you can call Second Life as THRIVING.EQ2, like FFXI, has a very insignificant number of subs. So the sample size becomes much more specific. It is possible that the only folks left playing these niche games are comitted game zealots. Or at least some sizeable percentage is. In this case, if you're down to like 100,000 people and 20% of them feel this is a HUGE issue, then the corporation has no choice but to do SOMETHING.
Here I agree with you.
What I wonder though, is why the emphasis on RMT and farmERS. I suppose all of you still want the mechanisms in place to allow legitimate farmING, right? So its ok for players who have the luxury of 200hrs a week of play time to monopolize the market for high end items. Just as long as its not some guy in China doing it for cash. Or perhaps there should just be no high end items and no differentiation at all? After all, not everyone has the same amount of money or same amount of playtime, therefore everything should be artificially leveled and a standard grey suit can be handed out at lvl 1.
No, its not OK to make someone who can spend 200hrs a week to monopolize the market. But its not OK to promote unfair competition either. Lets resort to common logic:
Lets assume the game has 100000 active casual players and 1000 active hardcore players.
Scenario A:
The game has strict anti-farming policy. no RMT whatsoever. Most likely all 1000 hardcore players would have most of the high end items. They would split their time between farming, PvPing, trading, exploring and what have you.
Scenario B:
No strict anti-farming policy OR there is a legit RMT system. Most hardcore players would be spending a lot more time farming now, due to the fact that RMT allows them to actually make good money. Furthermore, a lot of casual players would try to do the same because suddenly a large number of high end items are on the market available to anyone who can purchase it (no effort involved). Some players will not have the luxury of that added effort nor can they afford money to purchase those items.
Result? Scenario B has a lot more high end items. A lot of people are doing excessive farming. There will be much bigger rift between different types of players: hardcore, casuals who can afford the extra effort or money and casuals who cant afford it.
Scenario B will have a vastly greater number of cases where one player will have unfair advantage over another.
So if you're going to ask the universe to change its rules, what are you asking for specifically? "No farmers!" just trades one inequity (folks with more cash than time) for another (folks with more time than cash)
The "fair" type of competition is when the game allows you be equally competitive with anyone else without the influence of external factors like bank account. After all, the games we play were made for us to level our characters by investing our time into fighting, trading, manufacturing, harvesting, exploring, traveling. Show me one game where it was written on the box "Join the endless adventure directly connected with your bank account, the richer you are - the more powerful you get".
The ONLY inequity that is fair in this case - when a person has more time and/or skills then the other. And THATS what the spirit of competition is, spend more time to increase your skills to become a better player, not spend more time and money to buy your top character with uber gear in 5 minutes. Are these games about competition of skills or bank accounts?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
/agree Jimmy the man
As regarding companies making selling legal is ok with me and they give people the oppertunity to not be scammed. Thousands of people get scammed every day by so called people selling stuff... they never see the money again so a legal trusted third party company provides a safer environment for all players who decide to spend their real life money to get advantage over the hardcore players that wants to earn it themselves.
It's fairly simple to get rid of the majority of farmers in all games as long as the creators of the game is willing to change the game mechanics.
The monsters, spaceships drop stuff all the time... stupid really... I mean even animals drop stuff and money remove the gold drop from wandering monsters and just make the quest monsters have stuff drop and cash drop. Ofcourse the farmers will probably try to create a marco which enable them to send their character to quest as well.
Spaceships as in EVE when they blow up would most likely in reality never leave anything but scrap to salvage and the bounty systems is so stupid I can never understand why it is there at all. In fantasy games give the npc inteligent creatures which would be using money tp drop a few coins and only bosses drops items of any value.. the rest an axe worth a few bucks... the farmers would have to have an insane amount of farming to be able to get anywhere.
Another issue is crafting stuff... people would ofcourse sell the minerals but then again... make the raw materials unable to transact between players then onyl the finished item however also a limit of how much a person can craft everyday would make it more balanced.
The amount of stuff and money in most mmo games is way too much... if it was in real world the inflation would be insane.
Also to prevent that items which is unique can be sold it's should not be possible to remove it from the account at all.
However I still support the fact that people should be able to buy an account with all it's belongings and it should be legalized in all mmo.
If a person has too much money to dump on a mmo let him do so.
But as for game balance the game creators are not creative enough to find a solution to this.. I would go as far as saying they are actually not willing to stop this at all... because if people can buy everything for real money who needs to play to get any stuff anyway.
The only thing is that I pity all those who get scammed by other players everyday... they ruin the games in the end.
If I had the power I would probably round them all up and send them to a place they don't want to be. Shame on you guys.
As for pve there is not balancing needed because you're playing against the computer anyway and it don't mind loosing because you had all the uber stuff in the world... in pvp however some players has an unfair advantage not because they're skilled but they have a huge wallet.
I hope in the future there will be a mmo that is very balanced when it comes to pvp so far I've tried a huge bunch and well the powerdude will almost always win.
So in short I appeal to the game creators to be a little more interested in actually making a good game instead of counting the cash... however as long as the game company is interested in one thing as most humans are earning money... mmo will always be unbalanced and have scammers, cheaters, farmers or whatever...
Please don't blame the evils of human nature on bad game design. The scammers and such are going to go on no matter how good the game design. There's absolutely nothing the game designers can do to stop this. They can block spammers and offers in game, sue companies that attempt to violate contractual agreements, and ban the accounts of those that make use of services not allowed by the agreed upon contract.
I read a lot of ranting about how companies are just in it for the 'almighty dollar.' Yes, they are. The same reason you go to work every day, they work their asses off making the best mediocre game they can in hopes that they will get a loyal customer base. In an attempt to retain customers, make their own lives easier, and maybe -- just maybe! -- make a little more money, they might support a sanctioned form of RMT. Does this make them evil? Does it make a terrible game? Nope. Just makes them human (just like the rest of us).
Oh, and guess what? That dollar they're chasing is just as artificial as those games we all play. When was the last time you could take a piece of paper money to a bank and exchange for its equivalent in a precious metal? That dollar is only as valuable as the time it took you to earn it. My time may or may not be more valuable than the dollar I spend or earn buying or selling in-game currencies. Because I have 500 platinum pieces to my name doesn't give me a better character than anyone else. I still have to grind my toon up to level 80 just like everyone else. (Sorry, but those that buy toons generally take as much time really learning that toon as getting those levels to begin with. Exceptions do exist to my rule of thumb as always.)
For those complaining about how RMT ruins a game, these RPGs are not the places to look for your arguements. If anything, RMT actually makes things more interesting and fun when done right in RPGs. (As usual, exceptions can exist.) Look to the web-based games and micro-transaction fee games. There you will see games that can and have been completely broken by such methods. I'll use Travian as an example. (Travian is a web-based RTS that plays out over months: up to a year or more in some cases.) Originally, you got a plus account that let you do a few more things, but it wasn't an advantage that couldn't be overcome by resourceful players. Sometime into the game's life, they introduced a gold system where you could literally buy your development. Certain limits on this exist, but as long as the player is willing to pony up the money, they get better resource production, stronger armies, and chances to instantly build up villages. A great player going it completely free of charge will do better than most that are paying, but they'll never win.
In the end, I only have questions to ask. Why is it that players hate RMT systems, especially when they have options to avoid it? The only answers I can see are ones that I don't want to post here. (Everyone else has already posted them, even if they can't see the responses in the response.)
I am passionately against RMT because when I choose to play a game that forbids it, other players violate the rules and my rights to play in such a venue.
The real question should be, why don't gamers who desire RMT stick with games that support it?
Smedley's whole shtick is about how this helps players when it really serves SOE and that is why people are offended by his comments.
Example: I work for a company that does translations of documents into English. For some customers, theres an easier and much cheaper way to do what they need to do. When I serve those customers, I advice them to take the cheaper/easier road. I could do it the other way, more expensive one. They wouldnt know, and I wouldnt break any laws or regulations. Its perfectly legal. but it would be UNETHICAL.
Same here, squeezing that extra buck to give some Joe with rich daddy an advantage in something so trivial as a computer game, which supposed to be fun, is simply UNETHICAL. If you agree with RMT, you either BOUGHT from it, or you SOLD on it. If you dont buy or sell virtual items for real currency, you take away fun from people that dont do it.
Good example.. Now imagine what would happen if suddenly ALL fake money would be made LEGIT. If you are not in a business that makes fake money, wouldnt you be pissed that your neighbor suddenly became a millionaire JUST because his printer is really good? Im sure you would feel left out. Any discrimination feels crappy, and this is discrimination - the rich will become more powerful while the poor just look on helplessly. After awhile, they unsubscribe and uninstall.
I haven't tried any web games, so I cannot comment there. The ONLY exception to RMT that doesnt really bother me is in Eve. As far as I know, you cant "twink" your character n anyway, you can just buy your monthly subscription with in-game currency. This way you can play for free if you are successful in-game AND, at the same time, it doesnt really affect my character in any way... as far as I know that is. Any other system that does affect your character or your gameplay do cause unequal opportunities, thus making fun less fun and more farm.
How an I avoid it if someone else is doing it right in front of me? This is not a single player game, any action from me, you and the rest of the world affect ALL of us one way or another. Playing with someone who used RMT is JUST LIKE PLAYING WITH A HACKER - you have no control over the hacker, you cannot influence him, you cannot tell him to stop, you cannot compete with him unless you start hacking. Not to say RMT kills immersion! Thats killer of any decent roleplay right there!I hope people will understand that RMT brings a lot more negative aspects for those who dont like it then positive ones to those who do. The fact that any given game supports any kind of RMT eventually will make the game virtually unplayable by spammer farmers. It doesnt matter if the game will have separate servers with/without RMT - those nasty farmers will just keep popping trial accounts and spamming servers that supposedly forbid RMT.
I call a challenge to RMT supporters - answer the following question honestly please:
- Have you ever bought virtual currency for real money in a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG?
PS: Im being specific with the term "virtual currency" because I dont want people to say they bought expansions, additional premium content or any other content that isnt available by normal means.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'm not exactly sure how this will ever affect me, being that I hate handing over any cash besides the monthly fee lol =/
- Ding im bot! -
You know, SOE has already maximized profit when they screwed a couple 100k of player out of SWG. If they expect anything from the public to pay for their broke down games, they are fooling themselves. I have watched them release some nice game, then turn around after initial sales, and the 14-20 month lifespan of the casual MMO player, and screw the game so badly that nobody wants to play it. They DO NOT care about the gaming community, only themselves.
I know business is business, but I think the MMO players out there ,are about tired of stupid companies taking advantage of us. I truely hope that other MMO companies that were listed in that meeting, do not go the route of "Smedly the terrible".
If SOE was even the slightest bit concerned with anything but profit, they would get back some playerbase, but as it stands right now, this looks like a desperate move to try and gain back some income from their ever failing business decions makers. After the SWG collapse, every MMO they have touched has turned to failure. Either Smedley Needs to go, or whomever is hiring the quacks who think that a Survey on a Target Audience is correct. Matrix online was a failure, SWG a failure after the CU/NGE, Etc,,,Etc,,, a very obvious trend. I think that Filing with the insurance companies on Profeitt/Loss, is making them more than the actual games.
It is always been said that any press is good press, this is just another example of Marketing tactics on SOE's part. If BIOWARE-Austin and other companies Start lettng SOE produce and exploit their games, then I fear a Great drought in this Industry is coming. I just wish Bill Gates or somone with the Financial backing could step forward and create the Next Generation of Video games and run all the competitors out of business.
They are now talking about Implementing the Gameguard Type hackshield into the New line of Next Generation Processors, it seem like the Companies have learned something from the Communist Party about controlling the population. You WILL, buy our virtual items, you WILL use the antihack software, you WILL put up with the constant ruining of online gaming Communities, Etc,,,Etc,,
It is like the gas prices to me as a gamer, I want to play them so I HAVE to pay. You have to drive to work, therefore you WILL pay that 4-6$ a gallon.
Take this Advice SOE, Fire Smedley, Get some real programmers with Innovative thought, Listen to the Voices of Gamers, Not Survey/Research companies and Just keep making the Kiddie Consoles, Stay out of our MMO market, it will be nothing but more dissappointments if you don't.
The Live Gamer thing is nothing but a joke. The more I read about it, the more pissed I become. Any Company that make a Deal with them looses my business, and I may be only one person, but after 20 years of Gaming, I think I have a large Circle that spreads around the world, and remember the Rules of Marketing.
You can Make one person happy and they will tell A friend, But you piss off one and he tells ten, and they tell ten, etc, etc,,,