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So AoC is anather WoW/EQ2/VG game? no more sandboxes?
Shadowhearth
Member Posts: 174
So i am waiting for this game, and had a big hopes, but now this just makes me think ( i know, i am surprised aswel 
) .
I quited WoW becouze its gear based, end game - raid. Lotr - same mix as WoW, VG - Have some cool futures, but still WoW mix. EQ2 same mix only deeper.
So like all mmorpg give same mix, just with few new futures, better graphics...Aoc going same way as far as i see, same classes same as in all those mmos, only different names, dungeon based ...
We will just getting same thing in different packadge, and different name, this time instaed of WARCRAFT lable , we getting CONAN label...
So point is, dont you whant a game where you could start equal like anyone else in game and work your character the way you whant? ( ultima online in its golden age). I dont whant to be a mage, or be a warrior . I dont whant to be a rogue anymore , hidding in shadows, and killing lowbies.....
I whant to be only carpenter etc, make some small items first.... then grow up and do furniture, open my shop of " shadowhearth world of kitchen tables!". ( just example lads 
)
Or be Mapmaker! explore world and and do maps for ather advanturers!
Be a blacksmither, have my own shop, and repair people equipment, upgrade it, biuld new armors on orders!
Be a real assasin/thief, hunt down mine victims, loot theyr stuff, and then hide, have a secret headquarters, where i could hide, while all gets quite again! Make a secret thief society...
All this, well atleast some of it, had UO... Now UO is something strange tbh... its like a dragon with one wing choped of...I mean: its still trying to be a sandbox game, but not that good like it used to before....
Anyway guys, you can have my head now, for mine ironic opinion about AOC, but i think that market is overfilled with gear driven, raid based "end game" games ( Wow etc.), we need ather stuff now!
Remember WW2 shooter era recently..... Cod4 wasnt anather ww2 game ,it took ather way, couze they understood: ww2 market overfilled, people are sick of it, market whants fresh stuff!
Okay, i am all yours now. " where do i stand?" " oh, by that wall"? " emmmm can i have atleast mine last fag"? "thank YOu........."
Edited:
P.S. My native language is not ENGLISH, i speak english only for few years, my spelling and grammar sux, i know. But there is no need to make fun of me. I can speak Lithuanian,Russian,English. I dont have good typing english skills, but atleast i try, and i dont ask you to talk mine native language, dont i?
Comments
Sandboxes don't sell well, games like WOW do. (or so the current crop of developers believe).
So don't expect much to change in the near future, unless somehow DF manages to get released.
Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
To be 100% honest, i cannot understand what your talking about. Im not saying you need 100% perfect grammer and typing, but some of the words you typed dont even have the same meanings as what i think you were trying to type. If your foriegn to english, you might want to try an online translator that works good. Sorry i just had to mention this, and also note spellcheck from above.
Now to answer your titled thread, in my opinon AoC is not another WoW/EQ2/VG. But i have not yet played it, and this is only from information i have read.
EvE is the game you are looking for.
Considering that the last mainstream sandbox that was released SWG (that I know of) failed because of bugs and not the fact that it was a sandbox, and the last mainstream sandbox released before that was UO and we all know what that did for the MMO genre...
Saying sandboxes don't sell well is like saying cars that run off water don't sell well. It has more to do with the fact that people like to copy others and take the easy way out, the sure way out, the proven way that they can sell to people.
There will be a day when that sandbox game comes out and shows everyone what the true potential of sandboxes can do. And mark my words every game that comes out after that game will copy every little thing about it till the next big game come out that isent afraid to do new things comes along. Look at movies, music, fashion, culture in general the masses normally just go along for the ride and follow those that are paving the way into the unknown where no one has gone before...
Sandbox MMO's are the way of the future...
"Sticking with what works doesn't make good games, it remakes them, I quit playing that a while ago.
After all, no artist got anywhere from repainting the Mona Lisa as a black women in a white dress...
It's about the paintin man, it's about the paintin..." -Goply
EvE, is not the game for everyone looking for a sandbox game, I personally like games that are action packed with decision making around every corner, eve just seems too slow like I'm staring off into space, pun definitely intended(but thats just my opionin) and I also beleave the littlest things can turn people away from a game all together, but I do like that someone said that name in here it only helps to prove my point that you can't blame sandboxes for sales.
A game is like art, if your doing it for money it's going to suck, and suck it will very very badly, its also not what you put into the game but how you put that into the game...
Deleted my comment about the grammer comment, that was my bad sorry, probably should have read it alittle more clearly...
I was going to edit more onto the thread but I suddenly lost interest and don't really care anymore lol, you eather know how things work with game development and publishing and how it hurts games, ect... or you don't so ehhh. whatever right....
"Sticking with what works doesn't make good games, it remakes them, I quit playing that a while ago.
After all, no artist got anywhere from repainting the Mona Lisa as a black women in a white dress...
It's about the paintin man, it's about the paintin..." -Goply
I was just thinking about this today. Besides of SWG, EVE and Face of Mankind, I can't think of any released MMO's with a dynamic world. I think AoC will have a sandbox element to the endgame though, building your own towns and such?
yeah.. it seems like it will just be like wow with conan stuck over the top, its such a shame i had massive hopes for this game i really wanted the pvp, but they went back on their word of pvp loot and game being dark and gritty and brutal ... sigh it's probably all the polls which were mostly undertaken by only carebears who voted for pvp to be nerfed... Oh well i guess TCOS, or EVE ...
Age of Conan is not World of WarCraft.
Hyboria is not Azeroth.
Conan is not Thrall.
War Mammoths are not Elekks.
Guardians are not Warriors.
Conquerors are not Paladins.
Rangers are not Hunters.
Demonologists are not Warlocks.
Magi are not Magi.
Assassins are not Rogues.
Rogues are not Rogues.
Bear Shaman are not Druids.
Bear Shaman are not Shaman.
Priests of Mitra are not Priests.
Dark Templars are not Death Knights.
Crom is not Sargeras.
Feats are not talents.
Fatalities are not spamming /spit.
Combination attacks are not automatic attacks.
Border Kingdoms are not Battlegrounds.
Cimmerians are not Horde.
Aquilonians are not Alliance.
Stygians are not... goblins?
Heralds of Xotli are not Draenei.
Kilts are not dresses.
Realistic pace of combat is not hyperactive-spastic-arm-twitching-while-desparately-clutching-a-weapon.
...............
Looting options are still to be decided.
You can kill other races including your own.
All servers will have non instanced OPEN pvp on them
The PvP servers will be OPEN everywhere except Hubs/Cities etc.
How the fuck is what you have seen so far not brutal and bloody?
best suggestion for you is to visit the Darkfall forums
AOC won't be a sandbox. It will be a lot more like WoW, EQ2, VG, whatever else.
Well, the sandbox lovers will always the last thriving true sandbox, EVE.
I only played EvE for a short while on a friends account, and never really even got into combat/pvp, but from what I've seen, played and read, the game deserves all of the praise it gets. It's not for the timid, it's not for the impatient, and it's not for the "omg i'm gonna go gung-ho and be uber PvP'er" or else you lose a lot of time (and ISK) in that game.
The only reason the sandboxers haven't fully embraced EVE is because of that whole waiting months to get "leveled-up" to where you can fly something bigger than minuscule frigates and interceptors.
EVE's biggest problem for gaining new subs is keeping people interested in that period between when they start and 2-3 months later when they're flying something cool.
But even with that said, I think I'd leave it how it is. Having people flying those little ships are a part of the game system, and I think that game is doing just fine. If I were to play an MMO, that'd probably be it. The only reason I don't is because from my short experience, I didn't feel like it was worth the 15/month to login and feel like a noob
We have a very long while I believe before we have any more AAA companies making a MMO that is of the sandbox variant. SWG was the last, and the game company suits out there blindly attribute the, IMO, dwindling numbers and bad reputation SOE has gotten to the style of game it was, instead of the game they turned it into (NGE).
So, we'll just have to wait until some company takes that bold step again, but this time sticks to it's format, and in turn will create the next big MMO. Companies want to make MMOGs instead of Massively Multiplayer Online Worlds at the moment.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
While i certainly hope that AOC will not just be another WoW/EQ2 or Vanguard it also will not be sandbox.
And the facts are sandbox games have not been as successful as structured level based games have been. This goes for the levels suck and skills are the way to go arguement also.
Most people would say the the two most popular Sandbox games have been UO and SWG.
UO peaked between 2003 and 2004 at about 250,000 subscribers.
SWG peaked between in 2003 at around 250,000 subscribers.
EQ peaked between 2003 and 2004 at about 450,000-500,000 (depending on the source)
FFXI peaked in the west at about 700,000
Perhaps Sandbox and Skill based are better systems, but more people play games like EQ, FFXI, DAOC, WoW, EQ2 and LoTRs.
I personally don't think the sandbox method has been given a serious, long term shot since UO. I think that if a really well round sandbox game hit the market today with a crafting system like SWG's before the NGE, it would do really well subscriptions wise. No, I'm not one of these people who use the term "wow-killer" as I find it has no point. I'm just saying the game would do very well as it has been proven their is a demand.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I personally don't think the sandbox method has been given a serious, long term shot since UO. I think that if a really well round sandbox game hit the market today with a crafting system like SWG's before the NGE, it would do really well subscriptions wise. No, I'm not one of these people who use the term "wow-killer" as I find it has no point. I'm just saying the game would do very well as it has been proven their is a demand.
I very much agree with you. I definetly think there is plenty of room for sandbox games (and i would play them). I think there is room for every kind of MMO that can be thought up, diversity is FANTASTIC. I would rather have 10 games with 250000 players then 1 game with 2.5 million players.What im saying is that the Devs see that subscriptions have historically been higher for class/level based games so that is what they make. Its all about the money.
Not saying its right, just saying thats how it is.
I think the era of sandbox mmo is over. I wouldnt hold my breath for any AAA sandbox game within the next 5 years. Looking back its almost like a conspiracy
UO 3D was canceled, SWG was NGE'ed. Darkfall is in development since ..uhm.. 100 years or so :P Then UO created a new client , but it wasnt a real AAA 3D client.
Back then people made games they thought would be cool. It was a completely new thing. Gariott created UO, McQuaid created EQ, Cyan created Myst. Every game was unique because it was a complete new thing to play on a PC.
Today people invest money into the PC gaming industry. People analyse the market, target audience and what not. Its a business now.
But companies are trying new things. AoC has quite a few things that are different in detail. IMHO they really showing some guts with their combat system and their approach to itemization. SOE will release a *cough.. yeah really* skill based game (The Agency). SOE has changed gameplay of EQ2 into something more open. SIMU still has HJ in the queue.
If all those games do well, there is a good chance for a huge AAA+ sandbox in the future.
I personally don't think the sandbox method has been given a serious, long term shot since UO. I think that if a really well round sandbox game hit the market today with a crafting system like SWG's before the NGE, it would do really well subscriptions wise. No, I'm not one of these people who use the term "wow-killer" as I find it has no point. I'm just saying the game would do very well as it has been proven their is a demand.
I very much agree with you. I definetly think there is plenty of room for sandbox games (and i would play them). I think there is room for every kind of MMO that can be thought up, diversity is FANTASTIC. I would rather have 10 games with 250000 players then 1 game with 2.5 million players.What im saying is that the Devs see that subscriptions have historically been higher for class/level based games so that is what they make. Its all about the money.
Not saying its right, just saying thats how it is.
The best approach, in my opinion, is to launch your MMO with a lot of content, and add sandbox elements in as the game matures. SWG had a high population turnover pre-CUNGE (remember Smed boasting of over a million titles sold, yet only 200-250k subscribed), that turnover in part was due to lack of content. The boards were full of people complaining about the lack of content.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
The only "sandbox" MMO currently available started small and grew little by little. There maybe a market for sandbox games out there, but it's not very visible at the moment. So starting big, aka investing a lot of money and time in an endeavour that in all probability will fail miserably is not something that I foresee. It'll be easier to start with the core sandbox mechanics in place and a skeletal world and expand according to the player base you manage to achieve. The problem with this approach will be that the game will not be recognised as a AAA title and a good portion of people will stay clear of it. I don't think that EVE would have the development it achieved today if it launched tomorrow in the way it did back then.
But I'm going too off topic with that.
Yes, it seems that the core mechanics are not sandbox enough, in the pure sense of things. Does that mean that it'll be a bad game? Not necessarily. Perhaps character development is more linear that most desire, but perhaps again the gameplay allows for freedom in an immersive environment. Hard to tell at this point.
Bottom line, I doubt you'll see pure sandbox games released before you see some semi-sandbox receive some market appeal. Also expect the mature themed MMOs to die fast if AoC is not well received, regardless of the reasons.
I personally don't think the sandbox method has been given a serious, long term shot since UO. I think that if a really well round sandbox game hit the market today with a crafting system like SWG's before the NGE, it would do really well subscriptions wise. No, I'm not one of these people who use the term "wow-killer" as I find it has no point. I'm just saying the game would do very well as it has been proven their is a demand.
I very much agree with you. I definetly think there is plenty of room for sandbox games (and i would play them). I think there is room for every kind of MMO that can be thought up, diversity is FANTASTIC. I would rather have 10 games with 250000 players then 1 game with 2.5 million players.What im saying is that the Devs see that subscriptions have historically been higher for class/level based games so that is what they make. Its all about the money.
Not saying its right, just saying thats how it is.
The only point I will disagree with you on here is the "Devs" part. I think, for the most part, the "code monkeys" are gamers too. They hang out on boards with us incognito, and they have a finger on the pulse of what gamers want. I think it's the "Suits", the Smedleys of the world, the ones worried only about their bonus and when their next tee time comes, those are the ones unfortunately making the calls. Those are the ones out golfing with share holders who themselves only want to know "Can we make as much money as that WoW game the kids are talking about?"What we need, I believe, is a true gamer to hit the lottery, or otherwise come into about $300-$500 million. I believe if that could happen, and they take that money to fund a game where raiding, pvp and pve were truly separate and you were required to do either to be good at the other two, a game based on skill and not level, a sandbox game where if I wanted to fish and sell my catch because fish had actual value to other players. Content updates like Turbine did with AC1. Meaningful RvR type PvP like DAoC. Craft system like SWG (Pre-NGE). I'd pay $50/month, easy.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
What you described right there is the greatest game ever. Although to get all those systems working with each other (or separate) would take soo many years of development or some amazing coders. Only the big companies can afford to pull it off, but of course they would not fund a non-wowish game.
If I ever hit the lottery, you can count on me getting a project like that going
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Well Uo was game like that before.
And i dont agree there is no market for sandboxes. There is huge market for proper sandbox, and BTW i newer sow any sandbox released in last few years now.
The only sandbox game there: EVE and UO
EVE: its spaceship sim, its is very specific for taste. Not everyone whants galaxies, empty spaces, and huge starships...
UO: Uo lost it, uo gone the same way as athers mmo, and killed its gloriuos world of sandbox. It is item based now aswel!
And from all those mmorpg that are out now, and are being released soon, there is no more sandboxes, only those 2.... i think market have a huge hole there...
And really guys, you say it had 250k subs in 2003... and comparing it now with 6mils sub of wow now. I think its incorrect yo judge it like that.why?
1. These days pc are more affordable then back then. Now you dont need to sell your kidney to have atleast have decent system. So say it simple: There were not so many poeple with pcs back then, and those people who had it, they moustly were pc geeks. Couze now poeple buying laptop more as fashion accessory.
2. Advertising is huge days! Tell me, how many people didnt knew about UO, Moust people still dont know UO exists, and playing mmorpgs ( WoW players)
The first MMO you play define your experience towards any consecutive ones. Thus it will be hard for current generation of MMOers to jump from "this is the path for glory, follow it and you'll be there" to "there is no path, go wherever you feel like it". Hard, not impossible.
Also I would like to point out that most people tend to be nostalgic about the games of the past (especially when it's over 10 years since we played them). UO had it's good aspects, it's great aspects and it's horrible aspects. Nice, open world, great crafting system, horrible skill grind (I've killed a mouse or two hitting the bloody dummy to raise skills, very entertaining way to pass your time) and heavily unbalanced PvP (one skill combo to rule them all).
By the way, noone seems to mention another great sandbox game, Saga of Ryzom, that died exactly because of lack of interest in a totally open world.
If/ when the demographics is there for a pure sandbox to be viable, somebody will make it, there is no doubt about it. The players dictate the kind of games we get to play and right now it seems that the players have not just yet moved past a certain type of gameplay.
Darkfall has the potential to be a great sandbox game. Yes it is taking forever to develop but is that a bad thing if they are avoiding rushing a game to market before it is ready. Another one that has a vary unique spin on things is called "Spore" and it is due out Q4 2008.
Spore looks interesting. I'll probably take a look at it when it launches.
Darkfall will never launch. It's been on hold for years now (only a few dreamers in denial fail to acknowledge that). Decent concept (on paper) but I won't expect that particular development team to launch anything. It's probably a safer bet to look around other developers with similar concept and a more viable development (and launch) circle.
Not sure why people equate "skill based advancement" with "sandbox".
UO was as successful as it was for two reasons: Macros were allowed and it was the only choice. The instant EQ1 came out, it died.
SW:G was as successful as it was because it had the name "Star Wars" in the title, not because it was skill based. That "sandbox" world was a giant, empty, boring, sandbox. Sure you could run anywhere you wanted, but you didn't need to as it as all the same, empty (At least at the start, though when I played it 2 years after release or so, it was still empty).
Skill based games are much more limiting than class based. You end up with 2-3 templates of the month (and you have to have templates because if you, *gasp* locked people into the skills they learned, they'd cry and whine when their skillset was no longer the most powerful and be unable to switch, they'd quit).
Most people go through life with one profession. Sure there's the odd person with 20 different skill sets, brain surgeon, poet, surfer dude, etc... but they are super rare, and they typically don't FORGET all they've learned when they switch jobs. That's what make skill based systems (or job based like FFXI) so silly in my eyes... "I'd like a frontal lobotomy, fries and a dr. pepper, please." How can you forget that you were a sniper in order to become a creature handler?!?