Eve doesnt hold 10,000 on one server it links multiple servers together so it gives that impression, everyone plays one group of servers, no choice, i dont know exactly how many servers make up the group but the norm for a mmo is a max of about 2k to 3k per server. One thing you forget though imo nc was never ment to compete with eq or daoc its a small developer and fits a niche in the market, i cant see it ever getting thousands per server and i dont have a problem with that, as long as theres enough people playing for mmo interactions im happy.
Originally posted by Genty I never claimed Neocron could handle 600 people, currently anyway, as for eve handling 10000, it may do but i have currently not seen more than 8000. 99% of EVE is just...nothing, you can go through planets and space stations like they don't exist. EVE is a pritty game and I suppose on some levels it can be enjoyable, however gameplay wise it is not on the same level as Neocron. Also...where did i rubbish EVE?.....Just saying it is simple...which it is.
Eve has more depth and complexity then neocron imo, which may be why very few NC players like it.
Also you cant move through stellar objects
You said it's server didnt have to deal with very many complex things, unlike NC's.
@Cyphor, eve has approx 64 nodes(each node being a seperate PC), each node is dynamic and as a sector becomes more heavily populated, more node power is assigned to it.
Originally posted by Celt0r @Cyphor, eve has approx 64 nodes(each node being a seperate PC), each node is dynamic and as a sector becomes more heavily populated, more node power is assigned to it. So you are completely wrong.
"The game world is based on a network of servers in London maintained by CCP, handling all interactions between the world and the players. When players log into the game, they instantly become a part of the same game world as all other players that are logged on at that time."
So no i'm not completely wrong all i said was the servers are linked so everyone plays together, where in other mmo's there are multiple servers, you get a choice of which server to play. Call them nodes or servers it doesn't really matter how it works.
Originally posted by cyphor Originally posted by Celt0r @Cyphor, eve has approx 64 nodes(each node being a seperate PC), each node is dynamic and as a sector becomes more heavily populated, more node power is assigned to it. So you are completely wrong.
"The game world is based on a network of servers in London maintained by CCP, handling all interactions between the world and the players. When players log into the game, they instantly become a part of the same game world as all other players that are logged on at that time."
So no i'm not completely wrong all i said was the servers are linked so everyone plays together, where in other mmo's there are multiple servers, you get a choice of which server to play. Call them nodes or servers it doesn't really matter how it works.
No mmo's that I know of have 1 game server = 1 physical server.
Even neocron has multiple boxes per server(iirc)
It's silly to expect a game server to reside only on 1 physical server
Originally posted by Celt0r No mmo's that I know of have 1 game server = 1 physical server.Even neocron has multiple boxes per server(iirc)It's silly to expect a game server to reside only on 1 physical server
I know that, the point isnt how many servers it has but that what would norm be used as a server is linked with others so there is ONE game world rather than many choices...eg pluto saturn uranus venus and jupiter.
Anyway why is Eve being compared to nc, they aren't even similar...
Originally posted by Saza ReaKKtor ReaKKtor are great guys. I myself know one or two, and they are as friendly a company as you could wish for. However, when it comes to keeping deadlines, they truly do SUCK. BUT, each of the delays, whether for patches or for B:DoY has been backed up with a valid reason, and I myself disbelieve that KK would even give out these deadlines if they didn't try their hardest to keep them. DoY was promised in April 2003, but take a look when that claim was made. Neocron was only just into retail. They had no idea the playerbase would keep them in constant demand. So it was put back. Development started, slowly, but surely, but they hit another snag. They had no publisher. Plans for DoY were put on hold, at least as the community knew, and instead kept us happy with the steady trickle of new items and attempts at balance. But now, with the trailer released ON its deadline, we at the Neocron playerbase truly believe. DoY is coming in September. The preorder is out. We have sneak peeks, screenshots, everything. Its no hoax. DoY is around the corner. Some other points about KK. Firstly, please try to remember they are a small company. Don't expect the granduer of Sony, but they get the job done in the end. I can probably list all the employees of ReaKKtor. And all of them work their socks off to give us the best game ever. Secondly, they can come down hard on cheaters and/or exploiters hard when they want to. Only a few weeks ago a multitude of accounts were banned due to this offence. Any wind of an exploit/hack/cheat is immediately followed up. Thirdly, their support isn't half bad. The longest I have had to wait for a reply is two or three days, over an exploitable matter, and the incident was looked into straight away. Only yesterday I mailed one of the GMs with a request about a self organised event, (pretty low on their priority list, you might think). View these times:
Sent : 08 July 2004 11:43:36 On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:33:53 +0000, Sammy Burdock wrote: Taken directly from the e-mail sent to my hotmail account. 10 minutes was how long it took, and it wasn't an auto responder either. My friend has also requested a name change for his character, which took only a day or two to process. Bugs No doubt about it, Neocron is a buggy place. But to be honest, can you blame KK for that? If they fixed the bugs, people would complain about DoY being put off, if they work hard to get DoY out to us, the bugs remain unfixed. Among the bugs are such fun items as, turning into another character (which is actually quite funny), items in trade being replaced into the inventory, weird graphical lines appearing, and the infamous "green guys" (but that makes you famous, so who can complain ). But there are the two daddies. The dreaded fatal and synch. As Neocron is made up of many sectors, you cant expect seamless interaction between them. Every 1 in 50 or so (for me at least) zone crossings can either crash the game (fatal, but these can happen at any time) or it will stick you in an endless loading process (synch). People severely overexaggerate the problems with these bugs. Starting up Neocron again takes 10 seconds if you have NeoLauncher Pro (an excellent 3rd party program made by a few of the playerbase of Neocron). However, the trouble sets in if it happens during battles, which is very uncommon. But when it happens it will stick out in your mind above all the other fatals/synchs like a bloody spot. However, there is one point when synching is common and annoying. The zoneline between PP1/P3. PP1 the entrance to the red light district, guarded by the powerful Tsunami Syndicate. On the other side lies the Plaza, the haven of Neocron's supporters. So clashes are inevitable. With P3 under the watchful eyes of the copbots, fighting takes place right on the zone line of PP1. So you can imagine the game becomes pretty unstable - and who can blame it? With 10 players constantly crossing over this point the server is likely to go bonkers. The only other issue is lag, but there isnt much to say except it occurs mainly on the populace heavy Saturn, but a decent computer sorts it out in 90% of cases. I never drop below 40 FPS. Gameplay Ah, finally. The big mother of them all. Well, to be blunt, gameplay on Neocron is a wonderful experience. There are four classes, each severely different. The standard average runner, the Private Eye. There is the GenTank, a creation designed for all out war. There is the Spy, the weakest of all classes but also very diverse and masters of technology and tradeskilling. And finally the PSI Monks, who have powerful spells. There are five main skills. Each class can attain different levels in the skills. The maximum level is 100. With every skill level, 5 free points are given to be distributed in to that skills subskills. Still with me? These subskills are possibly the most important part of the game. They decide your setup. One point could make it or break it for your character. People devote months to finding the best setup for them, and most are still tweaking with the changes that come with the patches. Weapons are a little complex in Neocron, so I'll break it down. You have the following weapons: Pistols; Rifles; Cannons; Melee; APU spells; PPU spells; Droners. The first four of these are further separated into two types, tech and non-tech. Tech guns fire energy or plasma, while non-tech are standard bullets, shells are rockets. All of the types of weapons are again split into many different sub categories, like Ray, Plasma, Laser for the first three. These determine the type of gun, its rate of fire, its damage and so on and so forth. Finally each of these types is split into levels, usually these 4: Level 1; Level 2; Level 3; Rare. For example, their is a pistol called the Ryker Napalm PP_v42. This is the level 3 plasma pistol. Also in the plasma pistol line are the level 1 gun (A&W PP183k Plasma Pistol), the level 2 gun (Plasma Pistol), and the Rare (Judge). The Rare weapons cannot be bought from any store, and must be sought after through parts obtained from the high level creatures of Neocron. The classes/weapons are not balanced. Thats an important fact to note. But KK are closer to this goal than they ever have been. Private Eyes can diversify greatly to achieve whatever their player wishes. The rifle spies own the immensly powerful sniper rifles, while pistol spies can use speed to outwit their opponents. Droning spies have also come a long way, now with the ability to aid the fight against PPUs and the fact they do not have to commit their runners body to the battle makes them a handy asset. Tanks have camoflauged armour suits and powerful accurate cannons, while Melee tanks have amazing accuracy and very good damage up close. Aggressive (APU) Monks have spells which cast an area of effect damage, which can be put to great tactical use while their Passive (PPU) counterparts, are very hard to kill, and have the ability to ressurect dead runners. APUs are also the nemesis of PPUs, as they have the ability to remove all of the latters protective spells, reducing them to little more than a frail man in a cloak. However PPUs can cast the dreaded Paralysis, which freezes the receiver of the spell so he can move only at a very slow pace. This is the hot topic of balance at the moment, and has been for some time. PPUs and APUs can also intermix, to become Hybrid, meaning they have some defence and some power, but cannot be amazing in either. PvP in Neocron consists of aiming your chosen weapon, and firing until your opponent is dead. Sound familiar? It should, its the basis of the FPS, the most popular type of computer game ever. Neocron is the first MMORPG to use FPS style combat (although 3rd person is also available if you find that option better.)
Everything this guy said up to the part about reactor was true. Notice how he says "I know a few of them myself" Even the most shallow and self centered people have friends and usually treat their friends decently. The issue is weather or not they are mature, intelligent and objective enough to run a mmorpg and the answer is no.
Even if you are the type that sucks up when you have to just to keep things easier you will probably have a run in with a gm that you don't know and doesn't know you and who will screw you over. And besides that the number of things which are not allowed takes a large part of the fun out of the game, not only by themselves but in combination with the fact that they are not clearly defined... Leaving you to wonder if anything you do is going to get you in trouble. But don't expect the rules to stop your enemies from using exploits if they happen to be friends with the gms...
You make a lot of excuses for KK. Running a business isn't about excuses. They can do research to try and determine what will happen, how much QA they might need, how long it will really take to develop something. At the very least they could use their ongoing experience to make better predictions about things like release dates. They could use some mathematical modeling to figure out game balance issues which instead they see saw back and forth on based solely on public opinion. They could use some logical thinking to better design the game even with the same amount of content to be more fun towards the end and motivate people to have clan wars and pvp etc. They could learn about people so they would know the best way to handle their customers, and the inherent problems with their current system. All of these things take nothing more than the will to succeed and an honest buisness agenda (ie to provide a service)....
Its also amazing the kinds of statements people will make about KK just because they haven't been the one getting screwed yet. It goes pretty much like this, until a person is the one getting shafted they are naive and defend the game and the company because it has some good gameplay aspects. Then once they get screwed over by a mod, gm, customer service etc they are severely pissed. Think about it... how could any player possibly know the things they claim about the company. for example "they work their socks off" Everyone percieves themselves as working their socks off no matter what and they would tell the customer base that even if they knew they werent. That doesn't mean they are actually working hard. The only way to gauge this is by how you and other players are treated and your experience. That the game can be in shambles at times and players are often treated terribly and then anyone could actually believe them when they say "were working our socks off" is silly, but not as silly as a fanboi repeating it from his own mouth as if he knew somehow.
How bad the service is depends on the problem. Several players have lost everything they had in the game due to a bug (it all just got randomly deleted) and didn't get any of it back. The problem with them being "hard on exploiters/cheaters" is that the majority of exploits people get in trouble for are not well defined. You might know someone who gets banned for a particular "exploit" such as poisoning someone and then zoning to avoid penalties, but then when you send pictures of some clan that is friends with a gm doing it might not be a real exploit all the sudden. Funny about that email, because they always send auto reply emails with a ticket number right after sending in a tech request.
btw you left out that its not a pure fps system... that would be kind of lame actually. You have to aim before you can shoot like deus ex.
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Issues about gm's etc have been discussed in other threads and while yes at the start of retail there may have been a small problem with it, kk at a company cracked down and fixed the problem to the extent the problem isn't there anymore. Why dredge up information from over a year ago that isn't relevant anymore? How long has it been since you played now anyway? Im not trying to be rude but the game "facts" change constantly and if i remember correctly you left months ago, therefore criticizing the state of the game based on out of date info seems slightly unfair imo.
I agree with you on kk not giving the impression of the best business minds at times, but then a lot of that in the past was down to cdv and the marketing of the game. Lets just hope with doy on the way they pull their socks up and manage to get some advertising done. By the looks of things they are starting with banner ads and competitions appearing on a few well known gaming sites...this one inc
Originally posted by cyphor Issues about gm's etc have been discussed in other threads and while yes at the start of retail there may have been a small problem with it, kk at a company cracked down and fixed the problem to the extent the problem isn't there anymore. Why dredge up information from over a year ago that isn't relevant anymore? How long has it been since you played now anyway? Im not trying to be rude but the game "facts" change constantly and if i remember correctly you left months ago, therefore criticizing the state of the game based on out of date info seems slightly unfair imo. I agree with you on kk not giving the impression of the best business minds at times, but then a lot of that in the past was down to cdv and the marketing of the game. Lets just hope with doy on the way they pull their socks up and manage to get some advertising done. By the looks of things they are starting with banner ads and competitions appearing on a few well known gaming sites...this one inc
You know before I respond I have to ask the question what makes you think you know that this stuff doesn't happen any more. It makes perfect sense that people who experience bad treatment at the hands of the company reps in whatever form they may take know that this stuff doesn't happen. But how could any person know that it DOESN'T happen? Its physically impossible. Of course they are going to say it happened before but its been stopped. In reality the only way to tell if it doesn't happen any more when it once did is that eventually the complaints and people saying that it does happen will die down.
I know for 2 reasons - A) I check up from time to time on whats going on and know people that play the game still. It isn't an issue of weather there are dishonest gms working for them or not or weather they pay attention. Their system is inherently flawed. Imagine if there was such a thing as volunteer policemen that had nothing to lose for abusing their power. It doesn't matter how many controls you put on them, they would always find a way to abuse their power once they got comfortable.
And besides that 90% of KK's policies are inherently dishonest. For example, if you have nothing to hide then you have no reason to censor people. Investors etc should know what running a given business is like and therefore are not going to be shocked about legitimate complaints on there etc. If a company has more such complaints than another company then they choose the one with less for finding a way to deal with their customer better. But censoring your customers complaints so you can hide how badly you treat them is dishonest and in the long run its suicide. Besides censoring the forums this goes as well for their lack of willingness to investigate complaints about gms etc. If you have nothing to hide then don't hide it.
Their policy for dealing with "exploits" is inherently dishonest as well. If you failed to foresee possible imbalances in the game that is your fault not the players. It is the players goal to find the best way to succeed in the game. To constantly attack players for their own inability to design properly is rediculous. Of course noone is perfect, but take responsibillity for your own shortcomings especially when you are running a business. No company should ever ban someone for doing anything short of hacking the game with an external program. At the very worst a company should shut down a server to stop an exploit for ruining the game long term and get it back up as soon as possible.
That goes for their level of agression towards their customers for any other reason as well. If they have a problem they should learn how to overcome it not chastize their customers out of their own fear that they don't know how to run a buisness.
PS no offense but can we please stop with the "What do you know you left?", "Oh well you still play it so you must really like it" defense. People who use this are basically trying to claim that anything bad said about the company is not true just because its criticism which is just rediculous.
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i still fail to understand why u guys need to bash at neocron, so some of u people have disagreements with gm's or even forum moderators and quit the game in a tantrum and take it upon themselves to trash the game everywhere you can, if im wrong im wrong but thats the image you guys paint. ive played lots of mmo's and some have had far worse customer support, EnB's support was dire, and it also had a huge amount of CTD's (crash to desktops) more frequent than fatals. yes fatals are an inconvinience but some of u guys blow it way out of proportion.
the game crashes every now and again, but so do loads of other mmo's and neocron is far from the least stable.
there is lag like in every other mmo, the effects of it however dont cause rubber banding
the sync bug happens when the servers are really laggy 90% of the times ive had it its been totally harmless as most of the dangerous zones dont get laggy enough to have the sync bug
vanishing backpack is very very very rare but like its stated in the tos they dont replaced lost items die to the people who kept scamming
the community, some people are very nice and some people are fuckers new players wont get killed all the time beacuse they start with the le chip if they take it out then they might get attacked by the assholes, my adivce is keep it in.
some people here lie and some people here speak the truth its a matter of opinion all opinions are biased like everyone here. my biased favourable probably inconcivable to some of the pople hear opinion is that the bugs that exist dont impact on the gaming experience enough to stop it being fun and fucking adictive. everyone who played it for ages thought that at some point.
nc fun > nc bugs. you cant flame me for my opinion
Originally posted by Kriminal99 PS no offense but can we please stop with the "What do you know you left?", "Oh well you still play it so you must really like it" defense. People who use this are basically trying to claim that anything bad said about the company is not true just because its criticism which is just rediculous.
It isn't meant to discredit your opinion, rather bring up the point that the longer you are away from a game the more it changes and if your not playing your not up to date with whats going on and so your info might be out of date. You have said you try to keep up to date so you may know some of what has changed but without playing you cant know it all.
Why i don't think gm's are abusing their powers currently? Its as simple as i haven't heard of it and have had no experiences where i would have to think otherwise. I also have faith in the measures taken by kk (logging what gms do and restricting their powers, cant alter char stats or spawn equipment etc.). Could i be wrong and it is happening? Yes, (even if i doubt it), but if the average player isn't finding it disrupting their game then does it really matter? If it is happening it cant be anything major or it would have been uncovered.
As for exploiting, players don't normally get a ban if what they have done has been innocent, however if you purposely abuse mechanics in the game and you are aware its against the rules i agree with being banned for it. Players have to be responsible for their own actions.
As for censorship, the mods on the official forums are very fair imo, they follow the rules which are there to stop chaos and any attention being drawn to specific players etc. Most threads that are deleted either discuss specific exploits, are spam or bring attention to specific players. Every game forum is as strict as this from my experience, its just that being a pvp based game nc attracts alot of immature people who find it hard to control themselves and act within the rules.
It isn't meant to discredit your opinion, rather bring up the point that the longer you are away from a game the more it changes and if your not playing your not up to date with whats going on and so your info might be out of date. You have said you try to keep up to date so you may know some of what has changed but without playing you cant know it all. Why i don't think gm's are abusing their powers currently? Its as simple as i haven't heard of it and have had no experiences where i would have to think otherwise. I also have faith in the measures taken by kk (logging what gms do and restricting their powers, cant alter char stats or spawn equipment etc.). Could i be wrong and it is happening? Yes, (even if i doubt it), but if the average player isn't finding it disrupting their game then does it really matter? If it is happening it cant be anything major or it would have been uncovered. As for exploiting, players don't normally get a ban if what they have done has been innocent, however if you purposely abuse mechanics in the game and you are aware its against the rules i agree with being banned for it. Players have to be responsible for their own actions. As for censorship, the mods on the official forums are very fair imo, they follow the rules which are there to stop chaos and any attention being drawn to specific players etc. Most threads that are deleted either discuss specific exploits, are spam or bring attention to specific players. Every game forum is as strict as this from my experience, its just that being a pvp based game nc attracts alot of immature people who find it hard to control themselves and act within the rules.
Because any system dependent on people acting in other peoples best interest rather than their own is doomed to miserable failure (see communism) People are selfish, every person is the center of their own universe, and the only thing that counteracts this is that people need each other in order to make themselves happy. The best overall world result from everyone using their own resources to make themselves happy.
As long as KK's system is dependent on unpaid volunteer gms to be honest its not going to work, but besides that I know that stuff still goes on because I read the forums when outbursts happen before the threads are locked/deleted, know people that still play, and because people who get screwed badly by them often come here after.
But btw there is a fundamental error in your reasoning - You believe KK because you haven't heard it happeneing to many people, but KK censors any complaints regarding the subject so of course you don't hear about it until it happens to YOU. And besides why would KK need to censor complaints about this stuff if its not going on? There is no legitimate reason.
And about the logs, controls etc, you really have no clue unless you go there and see the logs, the strict rules that require them to check ANY time someone makes an accusation AND requires them to fire the gm for doing something wrong regardless of who they did it too. It is in KK's best interest to lie about this stuff therefore it is grossly naive to just assume they are telling the truth.
Continuing the theme of interests, it is the players interest to excel in the game. It is the developers interest to create a game that cannot be beaten easily so they can get the players money for a longer period of time. It is most certainly NOT the players responsibility to make sure they do not excel too quickly or speculate as to what the developers intended or did not intend. That goes against the whole reason they are paying for the game. The notion that a company should ban players for their own lack of foresight is absolutely absurd. We pay the company to make an arena for us to pursue goals in. If there is a shortcut or problem with the arena it means we did not get what we paid for.
The rules of their forums are dishonest themselves. Punishing for discussing exploits is dishonest for the reason outlined above, punishing for discussing corruption is dishonest because the only reason for this is to allow mistreatment of customers while not suffering the consequences (although it is ultimately unsuccesful in this goal), and who cares about bringing attention to specific players. They let "whos the best threads" stand all the time so I gather that you missed the true reason behind whatever you were talking about there. But besides this stuff the mods do not limit their activity to enforcing forum rules, there is in fact a thread linked from this forum where the mod attempts to restrict the participants to bashing this forum rather than the Neocron one. There are other reasons the mods try and bully posters as well, and in fact many of the current forum rules started out as just the poorly reasoned ideas of what should be done by some snot nosed forum moderator. And you can believe they were enforced long before they became rules.
But you go ahead and continue to believe that KK has your best interests at heart. You might ask yourself though, why every major MMORPG company REALLY is so bad about meeting deadlines, when it has been proven time and time again that people will continue to pay for moths on end thinking that something new is just around the corner, and that even players who leave will come back for the new stuff.
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After playing for almost 2 years and not running into any corruption yes i am happy about the levels. Yes it has gone on but i haven't heard of gm corruption in almost a year, that includes the forums. Also yes part of the problem may have been volenteer gms, however only the top gms have to power to do anything of consequence now, they are all very credible people most of them being kk employees and paid. Also to pay all gms would cost the company alot meaning a higher sunscription and alot more work for a small company. GM corruption happens in all mmo's, from what i've seen lately nc appears to have relatively minor probs compared to some others about.
The comments edited on the forums are about exploits and kk are actively banning people for it as any decent company would. I can't believe someone is trying to defend exploiting If a person leaves his keys in his car by mistake, does that make it ok to steal it? In mmo games, due to there size, having the foresight to see every possible problem which could cause an exploit is impossible imo. The people who are guilty of exploiting know what they are doing and they know it is wrong. To go out of your way, abusing the game mechanics to give you an advantage over other players is wrong, simple as that, the game is meant to be played in a certain way and like all games it has rules you have to adhere to, if a player doesn't want to play by the rules they get banned.
Football would be a lot easier if players picked up the ball and ran with it, doesn't mean their allowed to
Originally posted by Saza Roleplay Roleplay is not dead on Neocron. People roleplay everyday when they attack faction enemies, quoting the old phrase "red is dead". A red runner is an enemy, so he should be killed in the name of your faction, hence roleplay. Tradeskilling is taking on a role, as is taking outposts. Yes its not pure roleplay, but even that isn't completely gone. It isn't very common, but Phoenix Ltd. for one are amazing roleplayers, selling guns, vehicles and other items to the Neocron population. Some people roleplay on their own too, but it isnt an essential part of Neocron. Neocron is more of an FPS than and RPG, true, but it still has enough RPG overtones to make Roleplay possible. (I even know of two people that got married in-game, which was intresting as I believed I was currently engaged to the bride.)
This is one mans view of RP (more specifically your view of RP in Neocron) while everyone is entittled to an optinion, and yours is equally valid its important to remember that other people may have their own ideas about RP that will be different
Personally, RP in Neocron for me was more about politics than gunfights - red = dead is far too dumbed down for my liking, while it works for some factions like City Admin Vs Twilight Guardian it doesnt work [as well/at all] for factions like NEXT Vs Protopharma - 2 city factions that, while they wouldnt be opposed to covert strikes against one another, would avoid all out conflict because it would be bad for business, their reputations and for the city (and its much needed unity) as a whole.
red = dead introduces zero tension in an encounter between hostiles because you _know_ someones going to pull the trigger. Theres no attempted parley(sp?) negitiations, bribes etc and thus (IMO) no RP. One person is going to die, its normally prettu obvious which one and the encounter plays out the way everyone expected (the expecter loser...loses and the attacker continues on his way, or camps the belt waiting for the now-even-weaker-player to return and collect his item(s) )
Red = dead also expects maxed out players to automatically kill lower levels who have no chance or defence (IMO one of the biggest problems the game has and certainly [a big] part of the reason for the player base decline) and seem to expect lower level runners to suicidally attack higher level runners - no RP here either, just people with either no regard for their own lives or people mindlessly pulling that trigger again
Originally posted by cyphor. The comments edited on the forums are about exploits and kk are actively banning people for it as any decent company would. I can't believe someone is trying to defend exploiting If a person leaves his keys in his car by mistake, does that make it ok to steal it? In mmo games, due to there size, having the foresight to see every possible problem which could cause an exploit is impossible imo. The people who are guilty of exploiting know what they are doing and they know it is wrong. To go out of your way, abusing the game mechanics to give you an advantage over other players is wrong, simple as that, the game is meant to be played in a certain way and like all games it has rules you have to adhere to, if a player doesn't want to play by the rules they get banned. Football would be a lot easier if players picked up the ball and ran with it, doesn't mean their allowed to
How can you possibly claim you have seen no signs of corruption. I just told you I know people playing the game that are still having problems and you claim its not true. Of course you haven't seen any signs of it if you simply claim that anyone saying the gms screwed them over are lying. If everyone who had a problem with it were allowed to post about it on the forums you would see how much of a problem it is, but they aren't allowed to post about it.
Stealing and trying to get somewhere in a mmorpg have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you would try to relate the two shows just how brainwashed you are. There is no clearly defined line between trying to excel and exploiting.
Here is an example of what I mean. When I fought mobs I used to run behind cover and shoot the mobs with only part of my virtual body exposed so I could easily shoot the mobs and they could not shoot me. Is this an exploit or not? Lets weigh the evidence.
Against being an exploit:
1) Its done in real life 2) Its common sense 3) If the programmers didn't want to allow this all they would have had to do is make it so weapons fire shot from the same point that enemy fire snapped to.
For: It allows you to kill large numbers of mobs without being killed as long as you remain vigilant.
Obviously this is not an exploit right? Wrong. Apparently if some snot nosed gm with limited mental capacity decides it doesn't seem fair to the mobs you can get banned. And several people did. The gm tried to say that you could only run behind cover to heal. Now it no longer is considered an exploit last I heard.
If you want to claim exploits are wrong then you first have to answer this question... What is the criteria for determining if something is an exploit?
Because right now the criteria being used is just weather or not the gm likes it or not. I'll give you a hint : The best answer is that there is no such thing as an exploit because it is the developers responsibility to design the game correctly.
The only POSSIBLE alternative is to claim what KK had it defined as before but did not adhere to, which is taking advantage of something which is OBVIOUSLY a bug in the game such as duping items by for example turning off the computer when you log out or something like that. But it is still stupid to blame PAYING CUSTOMERS for your mistakes. YOU DONT PAY PEOPLE MONEY TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO.
And besides that look back at say classic platform games, the beginning of gaming. When you fight say an end boss, most games had some position where you could stand and the enemy couldn't get to you. In some games this was done on purpose to give a way to beat the bad guy. In other games it was a glitch. In either case the player didn't stop and think "Oh Im exploiting this is wrong" The only reason its an issue now is because greedy ass mmorpg developers dont want you to get ahead faster than they intended so they get less of your money.
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I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist so i prefer to experience things first hand or see proof before I accept it. Give me proof of current gm corruption, screenshot etc and il agree and im sure send that same screenshot to kk and they'll do something about it
As for exploits, it is an exploit to hit a mob where it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to hit you, this gives certain players unfair advantage over others and removes the skill which is not what was intended. Those banned were well aware it was against the rules, yet persisted. They deserved getting banned because they purposely broke the rules, you need rules in EVERY game and players have to adhere to them!
As for comparing this exploit to old single player games...them games also had codes you could give yourself god mode etc. Suppose we should allow mmo player to use that to eh?
The difference is in a single player game you are playing against yourself so if you want to cheat its up to your standards and if you still find a game fun while cheating. In online gaming however you compete against other players and so cheating is not allowed as it gives cheaters an unfair advantage over others.
EVERY MMO has rules just as all good games in other formats do, if you cant play by rules you shouldn't be playing with other players simple as that. Games developers have every right to make up the rules and tell you how to play their game because it is THEIR GAME, if you don't want to pay to play by their rules then don't!
Also devs arent super humans they cant foresee every exploit possible, just because its possible doesnt mean its not against the rules.
Originally posted by cyphor I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist so i prefer to experience things first hand or see proof before I accept it. Give me proof of current gm corruption, screenshot etc and il agree and im sure send that same screenshot to kk and they'll do something about it As for exploits, it is an exploit to hit a mob where it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to hit you, this gives certain players unfair advantage over others and removes the skill which is not what was intended. Those banned were well aware it was against the rules, yet persisted. They deserved getting banned because they purposely broke the rules, you need rules in EVERY game and players have to adhere to them! As for comparing this exploit to old single player games...them games also had codes you could give yourself god mode etc. Suppose we should allow mmo player to use that to eh? The difference is in a single player game you are playing against yourself so if you want to cheat its up to your standards and if you still find a game fun while cheating. In online gaming however you compete against other players and so cheating is not allowed as it gives cheaters an unfair advantage over others. EVERY MMO has rules just as all good games in other formats do, if you cant play by rules you shouldn't be playing with other players simple as that. Games developers have every right to make up the rules and tell you how to play their game because it is THEIR GAME, if you don't want to pay to play by their rules then don't! Also devs arent super humans they cant foresee every exploit possible, just because its possible doesnt mean its not against the rules.
You are seriously missing the point here. First of all about the corruption, what makes you think its going to be something that pictures can be taken of? It could simply be the act of not investigating the exploits used by friends of his, something that happened to me. Whatever restrictions are put on gms, the gms know what they are and how to do whatever they want and not get caught. Thats why you see flaming mad players posting on the forums and all they have is a pic of the gm saying "stfu" or something. The fact that the players are flaming mad SHOULD make you realize something. Of course the gms are going to make it hard to prove.
Innocent till proven guilty doesn't mean you lend everyone around you cash with no paper trail and no way to prove that you lent them anything and expect them to pay you back. There is only one way to deal with the issue of corruption that is not hypocritical and that is to assume everyone IS selfish and corrupt and will only do what is expected of them if it is in their own best interest.
Next about exploits, Im not talking about some dude hiding where the mob couldn't get to him in some boxes. Im talking about a time where a gm banned people just for ducking behind a wall. I argued with the gm on the help channel about it and he was saying your only allowed to duck behind cover to heal and you ahve to run out in the open to fight. I don't think that person is even a gm anymore, and I don't think anyone else has tried to claim that but he did ban people for it.
Plus how does someone even know if the mob can get to you or not. Am I supposed to wait till I get killed at every spot I want to fight mobs from just to make sure I can? You think I pay them money for that crap?
Stop trying to argue with meaningless cliches and metaphors, if you have a point make it. The single player game example was to show that there is no fine line between smart playing and exploiting.
It's not an "unfair" advantage. If I am smart enough to say calculate the fixed and unit costs and the profit for making different items in an mmorpg and then discover I can make a fortune by manufacturing certain items is it "unfair" that I am smarter than people who can't do this? You want to go around handicapping everyone with more brains than you so the world can be what you percieve to be fair? Unless something is clearly defined as an exploit to everyone, if you DON'T do it then you can expect to be left in the dust in an online game. Theres always going to be people like me who will do it and then bitch out anyone who tries to claim its an exploit because it wasn't clearly defined to be. And others who will just do it thinking its ok.
Even if your talking about hacking its still not an "unfair advantage" because anyone can do this. There is an argument against hacking, but this argument isn't worth crap for any purpose. Sounds like your just regurgitating the bs arguments off of the Neocron website...
The rules of an MMORPG are controlled by the design of the game. There is no need to make rules such as in say basketball. Its not impossible to do so, but the thing that makes it stupid to do so when you can control the game simply by its design is the fact that people are PAYING YOU to play the game.
If a game is boring as heck because the design is terrible then noone plays it. The company doesn't make any money. If a company (in most cases) treats their customers like crap then people are not going to remain and they don't make any money. This is subject to the amount of competition and the value of the service. In the case of Neocron you have a very valuable service to the people that play it and very little competition. It is only this enviornment that this kind of attitude can exist at all without the company going under instantly.
Soon a mmorpg company with at least half a brain between its members will figure out it doesn't cost anything to treat customers decently when you know what you are doing and makes them much more attractive then other companies. When this happens companies like KK and idealogies like yours where "The company is always right" will cease to exist.
No the devs aren't perfect, that doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibillity for their own screw ups rather than rampage at the customers for being frusterated at themselves.
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To your first point, i never believe anything except what i hear from those i respect. In online games most people get so deluded by their triumphs that when struck down they find any excuse as to why, "he hacked"..."he had god mode" etc, why not think about lag, skill, bugs etc, just because it looks fishy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 There is only one way to deal with the issue of corruption that is not hypocritical and that is to assume everyone IS selfish and corrupt and will only do what is expected of them if it is in their own best interest.
I seriously pity anyone who takes that sad viewpoint in life.
Next a gm can't ban anyone...he has to refer a situation to senior gms, who based on FACTS make a decision on what to do about the player. I'm not talking about using initiative, im talking of exploits that were made perfectly clear were not allowed yet people persisted and they wondered why they got banned. Children of five know the difference between right and wrong, is it really so hard for you to grasp? KK own the game, they make the rules, they say don't do that or you get banned, people do it, their surprised they get banned
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The rules of an MMORPG are controlled by the design of the game. There is no need to make rules such as in say basketball. Its not impossible to do so, but the thing that makes it stupid to do so when you can control the game simply by its design is the fact that people are PAYING YOU to play the game.
There is need to make rules as there are always ways in which a player can abuse game mechanics, EVERY MMORPG HAS RULES! As for basketball, i suppose everybody who plays basketball plays professionally?
Games devs don't take their "screw ups" out on players, however once aware of problems that take time to fix they make it clear to abuse the problem is exploiting and anyone caught in the act will have consequences. Those who abuse the mechanics innocently (don't know they are doing anything wrong), get off with a warning, but if they know they are doing something wrong they get banned...THEY KNOW ITS WRONG YET THEY PERSIST.
If an authority figure tells you not to do something, you don't do it, to be in authority means they have control over a scope of activities, in a MMO case devs in authority over the game, if you act against the authority you are punished. It happens in all online gaming and in life, work hierarchy, military, school...the legal system!
I really don't see how i can make it any clearer...try cleaning your monitor.
Originally posted by cyphor To your first point, i never believe anything except what i hear from those i respect. In online games most people get so deluded by their triumphs that when struck down they find any excuse as to why, "he hacked"..."he had god mode" etc, why not think about lag, skill, bugs etc, just because it looks fishy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.
I seriously pity anyone who takes that sad viewpoint in life. Next a gm can't ban anyone...he has to refer a situation to senior gms, who based on FACTS make a decision on what to do about the player. I'm not talking about using initiative, im talking of exploits that were made perfectly clear were not allowed yet people persisted and they wondered why they got banned. Children of five know the difference between right and wrong, is it really so hard for you to grasp? KK own the game, they make the rules, they say don't do that or you get banned, people do it, their surprised they get banned
There is need to make rules as there are always ways in which a player can abuse game mechanics, EVERY MMORPG HAS RULES! As for basketball, i suppose everybody who plays basketball plays professionally? Games devs don't take their "screw ups" out on players, however once aware of problems that take time to fix they make it clear to abuse the problem is exploiting and anyone caught in the act will have consequences. Those who abuse the mechanics innocently (don't know they are doing anything wrong), get off with a warning, but if they know they are doing something wrong they get banned...THEY KNOW ITS WRONG YET THEY PERSIST. If an authority figure tells you not to do something, you don't do it, to be in authority means they have control over a scope of activities, in a MMO case devs in authority over the game, if you act against the authority you are punished. It happens in all online gaming and in life, work hierarchy, military, school...the legal system! I really don't see how i can make it any clearer...try cleaning your monitor.
Losing and claiming you have been hacked is not the same thing as claiming a gm cursed you out or refused to investigate an exploit, or that a person suddenly died or something dissapeared from their cabinet. While someone might start claiming someone hacked just because they lost, its very unlikely that someone is going to lie and claim one of these things. As much as you claim that people lie out of frustration, you refuse to consider that KK is not the most trustworthy buisness because of your fanboy attitude (no offense) and the fact that you argue with people who complain and thus they become your opponents. Objectivity is indeed a valuable trait to have, but I would not say you have it.
As for my "sad viewpoint" it is not A viewpoint it is the only valid one. It has been proven time and time again that systems that depend on people to consider other people's well being more than their own are doomed to failure. This is because people only have A) a limited amount of resources and are barely competent to know how they can increase their own happiness with their limited resources much less anyone else. Like I said the factor that counteracts this is peoples need for other peoples respect or warmth to make themselves happy. I go the extra step to call it hypocritical because by by trying to enforce any other system on a person you are trying to make themselves value themself as worthless since you want them to trade the infintesimal amount of happiness their effort and resources would bring to other people for the large amount of happiness it would bring themself.
It was said up until recently that the gms will be solely responsible for determining and enforcing punishment for exploits on the website. And yes people did get banned for using cover.
First of all there is no such thing as right and wrong outside of human perception. Second, Children of 5 have a very naive and unthoughtout view of right and wrong (as do you) that does not weather in the real world. Any number of situations would instantly shatter such beleifs, and even without direct demonstration of their incorrectness the world makes it clear that they are unrealistic over time. If a fat man is stuck in a cave exit and you and your 5 friends cannot escape before dieing without blowing the fat man up do you do it or not? If a man murders someone should he also be put to death? If you value human life above all else then you cannot kill him as long as he can be kept from murdering anyone else. If you do not value human life above all else then his crime is not as serious. If you believe in an "eye for an eye" then you cannot kill him unless he does the exact same thing the person did to him before he was killed. The truth is the ideas of right and wrong of most people are based on nothing but ignorance and selfishness.
In basketball, the position of KK is a immature crybaby player, who in response to every new tactic thought up by his opponent, yells "HEY THATS CHEATING". Perhaps KK hangs around the basket waiting for the opponent to approach the basket and the opponent instead shoots a three pointer. It would take an infinite amount of rules to limit the opponent to only doing things that the player expects, and if this was done there would no longer be any uncertainty to the game and there would be no game anymore. KK does not play Neocron, but they play the game of trying to get peoples money and they don't like exploits because it makes them lose that game. Rather than set out on this impossible, stupid and selfish task, the unexpecting player should just learn and adapt to the new strategies. For KK that means they should simply adjust the game to eliminate what they didn't expect or want the people to be able to do, and become more vigilant in their designing of the game. And if people do not like the game after what they eliminate they just leave.
What part of this is so difficult for you to understand. Its NOT wrong to exploit, that is a very naive and selfish viewpoint on the behalf of the developers. Even calling "adapting to the game" exploiting is propaganda.
Now the source of the errors in your reasoning become even more apparent. There is no such thing as a true authority figure. Trying to force someone to respect you when you haven't earned it is inherently hypocrytical. Furthermore the only example you cited which even resembles an MMORPG is school, which is equally as screwed up. Do you not think it silly when someone repeatedly says how they beat up so many people and noone should mess with them because of it? Do you not think that this person should prove it rather than trying to force undeserved respect? It is no different with any other situation.
The design of school started when great philosophers such as Socrates challenged the ideas of everyone and earned the respect of many young people. These young people then sought out these philosophers and asked them to share their ideas, and challenged them. In todays day and age, we have streamlined the teaching process so that any schmo can become a teacher. This would be fine, were it not for the fact that not every teacher, in fact few teachers actually earn the respect of their students. Instead people pay the teachers salaries their entire lives, they only exist because of the students, and yet the teachers and staff try and force the students to give them undue respect. The only reason this system was not thrown out ages ago is because most students are un self sufficient young people. Were most students independent adults then this school would be nothing like it is now.
In the other cases, your boss is still not an authority figure. You do what he tells you only because you want to be paid. Everyone knows subconsiously it is inappropriate for him to make demands not relevant to the job (which is the deal you made with him) or treat you disrespectfully. That is why people get angry when they attempt to do so.
The whole concept of exploits is really quite simple... A Company with KK's position is trying to force you to work for ITS own desires rather than your own which is immature and selfish.
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Originally posted by Kriminal99 Losing and claiming you have been hacked is not the same thing as claiming a gm cursed you out or refused to investigate an exploit, or that a person suddenly died or something dissapeared from their cabinet. While someone might start claiming someone hacked just because they lost, its very unlikely that someone is going to lie and claim one of these things.
While i agree being cussed or refusing to investigate an exploit is an obvious abuse of gm power, under these circumstances you can report them gm, and take evidence, if the evidence is indisputable then kk would have to take action. As for things disappearing from cabinets or suddenly dieing, I see that as jumping to the wrong, first and easiest conclusion. Snipers can kill very quickly, and people can misplace things or their account can be "hacked". Yes if well set-up the char might have reason for suspicion, but then it may also be a bug and it wouldn't exactly be the first bug in nc As for "hacking" it has been proved that under most circumstances it happens due to shared accounts (yes proved in some cases where items could be tracked/evidence was found), while I have no facts to say no accounts have been properly "hacked" no one can prove that they have either unfortunately(if there are people being hacked, I'd rather evidence was found so that something can be done about it.) Also I disagree, I've seen many cases where people in clans Ive been in have sent exploit reports after op wars they lost because "he seemed too fast", "he couldn't die" etc. Yes, again I can't prove it wasn't a gm using his mystical powers to boost the player or give him god mode, Im pretty confident that in most cases its either lag or people not liking to loose.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 As for my "sad viewpoint" it is not A viewpoint it is the only valid one. It has been proven time and time again that systems that depend on people to consider other people's well being more than their own are doomed to failure. This is because people only have A) a limited amount of resources and are barely competent to know how they can increase their own happiness with their limited resources much less anyone else. Like I said the factor that counteracts this is peoples need for other peoples respect or warmth to make themselves happy. I go the extra step to call it hypocritical because by by trying to enforce any other system on a person you are trying to make themselves value themself as worthless since you want them to trade the infintesimal amount of happiness their effort and resources would bring to other people for the large amount of happiness it would bring themself.
I'm not disagreeing that some people aren't influenced by greed and are selfish and corrupt; I believe your view point is sad by painting everyone with that brush. If you second guess or presume everyone you meet in life has ulterior motives then I find it sad as I can't imagine not being able to trust someone. If the phrase was used to try and emphasise a level of extremism in your view then that's possibly not as bad, but I prefer to judge a person on their actions rather than pre-suppose them. Also without rules there would be anarchy, a system has to be enforced or conflicting views of what is right and wrong will result in chaos, a general consensus based on the views of society in general is used to determine moral rules and how they are implemented and enforced. When applying this to mmo's, the company becomes the authority and with good right, they design the game, they have the copyrights, it is their intellectual property. Just as you can invite people to your house they can invite people to play their game and just as when you invite people to your house you expect them to abide by your rules, those who play a mmo must abide by theirs. Yes you pay to play but you pay to play by the rules, you agree contractually when you subscribe to comply with the rules created by kk, they as the owners, developers and company who run the game have every right to create and apply rules they feel are required. If you disagree with the rules, you aren't forced to play, you can cancel and quit.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 It was said up until recently that the gms will be solely responsible for determining and enforcing punishment for exploits on the website.
Gms was in plural, and regardless that was "up until recently", as this post is about a review of the current state of the game and not its history the past doesn't apply
Originally posted by Kriminal99 And yes people did get banned for using cover.
I have yet to see any proof or hear of any case of being banned for using cover, with the exception of here. Yes people were banned for hitting a mob where there was no chance of it hitting them and rightly so, it gives them an unfair advantage and removes skill much like macros in other games. However, if a case of the above did arise, it would take multiple gms to implement a ban, thus a gm with a grudge wouldn't be able to have you banned without proof of an exploit. NB: there is no rule that you can use cover.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 First of all there is no such thing as right and wrong outside of human perception.
It is created by consensus of society, based on moral views in the age to which rules and laws are enacted. It may be objective with people in disagreement over certain topics however that is irrelevant, right and wrong are created in laws and rules so to prevent chaos and protect the general population from anarchy and corruption.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Second, Children of 5 have a very naive and unthoughtout view of right and wrong (as do you) that does not weather in the real world.
I find (most) five year olds have a very pure view of right and wrong, unpolluted by the corruption of the world. And the rules are apparent and true in the real world, whether people abide by them is another story...
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If a fat man is stuck in a cave exit and you and your 5 friends cannot escape before dieing without blowing the fat man up do you do it or not?
I can't really picture your analogy outside of a cartoon situation so I'll forego it and move on to the next one.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If a man murders someone should he also be put to death? If you value human life above all else then you cannot kill him as long as he can be kept from murdering anyone else. If you do not value human life above all else then his crime is not as serious. If you believe in an "eye for an eye" then you cannot kill him unless he does the exact same thing the person did to him before he was killed.
You put him in prison for life, thus preventing him from killing again without sinking to his level.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The truth is the ideas of right and wrong of most people are based on nothing but ignorance and selfishness.
They arise from values past down through history that allow people to enjoy their life and that they accumulate in it without interruption from an unwanted party. They protect the populous from harm, and allow the smooth running of society. They are the complete opposite of selfishness as they promote the helping of others and condemn the harming of another.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In basketball, the position of KK is a immature crybaby player, who in response to every new tactic thought up by his opponent, yells "HEY THATS CHEATING".
KK are the referees and governing body, they create the rules and enforce them, they don't take part in the game and so can't be the "crybaby player".
Originally posted by Kriminal99 It would take an infinite amount of rules to limit the opponent to only doing things that the player expects, and if this was done there would no longer be any uncertainty to the game and there would be no game anymore.
Rules aren't there to limit players; they're there to create a level playing field so that all players compete against each other using legitimate, in game means. Exploits are prohibited as they are taking advantage of flaws in the game mechanics which weren't intended to be in the game, the games company makes it clear it isn't allowed, and then work on removing the possible action/exploit. Yes they made the mistake but they also have to try their best to fix it to allow a level playing field for all players. Using the basketball analogy again, would it be fair if one team played with the net at a 1m level and their oppositions net was at 20m?
Originally posted by Kriminal99 For KK that means they should simply adjust the game to eliminate what they didn't expect or want the people to be able to do, and become more vigilant in their designing of the game.
As the developers they have a vision for the game and how they decide it should work, it is their game (see above) if they find they have made a mistake in the implementation or design of a certain aspect it is their job to fix that error, and prevent people from abusing it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its NOT wrong to exploit, that is a very naive and selfish viewpoint on the behalf of the developers. Even calling "adapting to the game" exploiting is propaganda.
It's the developers' game, they make the rules, the rules are there to make the game fair. If they decide something is against the rules it is and the players have to abide by it. Also there is nothing wrong with "adapting to the game", you simply aren't allowed to abuse flaws which aren't meant to be in the game to your advantage, if you do without knowing you shouldn't be banned however after kk makes it clear it is not to be done and is not legitimate to do something in the game and makes it a rule not to do it, then by persisting you are breaking the rules and you are no longer innocent.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Now the source of the errors in your reasoning become even more apparent. There is no such thing as a true authority figure. Trying to force someone to respect you when you haven't earned it is inherently hypocrytical.
Dictionary.com 1. a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge. b. One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government officials
Authority doesn't have to derive from respect (at least not individual respect), it is created by power, more importantly those who have power have the authority to enforce it. KK is invested with the power over their property by law, their property being intellectual and the game neocron itself. They have the authority over the game due to this power inferred on them by law. While your opinions are very philosophical they are not based on facts, you may not agree with kk having authority or with the rules of right and wrong, the legal system etc but that doesn't mean you can ignore them, they have the power and however nice hypothetical situations can sound, they aren't real.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Furthermore the only example you cited which even resembles an MMORPG is school, which is equally as screwed up. Do you not think it silly when someone repeatedly says how they beat up so many people and noone should mess with them because of it? Do you not think that this person should prove it rather than trying to force undeserved respect?
I think the bully who beats people up should be punished by the school, his parents and if it comes to it the law. Taking the law into your own hands is never the answer, and violence solves nothing. In a school the authority is the teachers not the bullies or any other form of pupil, they are simply those who abuse the rules.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In todays day and age, we have streamlined the teaching process so that any schmo can become a teacher. This would be fine, were it not for the fact that not every teacher, in fact few teachers actually earn the respect of their students. Instead people pay the teachers salaries their entire lives, they only exist because of the students, and yet the teachers and staff try and force the students to give them undue respect. The only reason this system was not thrown out ages ago is because most students are un self sufficient young people. Were most students independent adults then this school would be nothing like it is now.
I don't disagree with you over the state of current school systems, though it may be slightly over dramatic, which may be down to differences between the UK and US schooling systems. However this is getting slightly off topic...
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In the other cases, your boss is still not an authority figure.
He has the power to exert rules on you, you must obey his commands within the scope of your job, if you don't he has the power to punish you, (see above) authority doesn't require respect (while it can help), it requires power over a given situation and your boss does have that over his employees.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 You do what he tells you only because you want to be paid.
And this is the power and influence he has over you.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Everyone knows subconsiously it is inappropriate for him to make demands not relevant to the job (which is the deal you made with him) or treat you disrespectfully. That is why people get angry when they attempt to do so.
This is because he doesn't have power to instruct you outside the scope of your work and so doesn't have the authority to.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The whole concept of exploits is really quite simple... A Company with KK's position is trying to force you to work for ITS own desires rather than your own which is immature and selfish.
It is their game, they have a vision for it and players play it out, it is their job to create rules which give each player equal standing to coincide with that vision. They can't force you to pay/play their game, if you don't like their game/vision you don't have to play it but they have the right to carry on their vision the way they intended to as they have built it from the ground up and it is their property. Also in a commercial sense they have to follow the majority of their custom base which is against exploiting and pro fair play.
To finish up, I seem to be repeating myself a lot and get the impression we are going round in circles in our arguments. While the arguments are a lot more constructive than a lot of posts on these boards it does seem we cant see eye to eye on these points so it may be better to agree to disagree? I am quite satisfied that both sides of the argument have been laid out and Im sure those who read it can create their own opinions, based on what is said.
I'm not disagreeing that some people aren't influenced by greed and are selfish and corrupt; I believe your view point is sad by painting everyone with that brush. If you second guess or presume everyone you meet in life has ulterior motives then I find it sad as I can't imagine not being able to trust someone. If the phrase was used to try and emphasise a level of extremism in your view then that's possibly not as bad, but I prefer to judge a person on their actions rather than pre-suppose them. Also without rules there would be anarchy, a system has to be enforced or conflicting views of what is right and wrong will result in chaos, a general consensus based on the views of society in general is used to determine moral rules and how they are implemented and enforced. When applying this to mmo's, the company becomes the authority and with good right, they design the game, they have the copyrights, it is their intellectual property. Just as you can invite people to your house they can invite people to play their game and just as when you invite people to your house you expect them to abide by your rules, those who play a mmo must abide by theirs. Yes you pay to play but you pay to play by the rules, you agree contractually when you subscribe to comply with the rules created by kk, they as the owners, developers and company who run the game have every right to create and apply rules they feel are required. If you disagree with the rules, you aren't forced to play, you can cancel and quit.
Gms was in plural, and regardless that was "up until recently", as this post is about a review of the current state of the game and not its history the past doesn't apply
I have yet to see any proof or hear of any case of being banned for using cover, with the exception of here. Yes people were banned for hitting a mob where there was no chance of it hitting them and rightly so, it gives them an unfair advantage and removes skill much like macros in other games. However, if a case of the above did arise, it would take multiple gms to implement a ban, thus a gm with a grudge wouldn't be able to have you banned without proof of an exploit. NB: there is no rule that you can use cover.
It is created by consensus of society, based on moral views in the age to which rules and laws are enacted. It may be objective with people in disagreement over certain topics however that is irrelevant, right and wrong are created in laws and rules so to prevent chaos and protect the general population from anarchy and corruption.
I find (most) five year olds have a very pure view of right and wrong, unpolluted by the corruption of the world. And the rules are apparent and true in the real world, whether people abide by them is another story...
I can't really picture your analogy outside of a cartoon situation so I'll forego it and move on to the next one.
You put him in prison for life, thus preventing him from killing again without sinking to his level.
They arise from values past down through history that allow people to enjoy their life and that they accumulate in it without interruption from an unwanted party. They protect the populous from harm, and allow the smooth running of society. They are the complete opposite of selfishness as they promote the helping of others and condemn the harming of another.
KK are the referees and governing body, they create the rules and enforce them, they don't take part in the game and so can't be the "crybaby player".
Rules aren't there to limit players; they're there to create a level playing field so that all players compete against each other using legitimate, in game means. Exploits are prohibited as they are taking advantage of flaws in the game mechanics which weren't intended to be in the game, the games company makes it clear it isn't allowed, and then work on removing the possible action/exploit. Yes they made the mistake but they also have to try their best to fix it to allow a level playing field for all players. Using the basketball analogy again, would it be fair if one team played with the net at a 1m level and their oppositions net was at 20m?
As the developers they have a vision for the game and how they decide it should work, it is their game (see above) if they find they have made a mistake in the implementation or design of a certain aspect it is their job to fix that error, and prevent people from abusing it.
It's the developers' game, they make the rules, the rules are there to make the game fair. If they decide something is against the rules it is and the players have to abide by it. Also there is nothing wrong with "adapting to the game", you simply aren't allowed to abuse flaws which aren't meant to be in the game to your advantage, if you do without knowing you shouldn't be banned however after kk makes it clear it is not to be done and is not legitimate to do something in the game and makes it a rule not to do it, then by persisting you are breaking the rules and you are no longer innocent.
Dictionary.com 1. a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge. b. One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government officials
Authority doesn't have to derive from respect (at least not individual respect), it is created by power, more importantly those who have power have the authority to enforce it. KK is invested with the power over their property by law, their property being intellectual and the game neocron itself. They have the authority over the game due to this power inferred on them by law. While your opinions are very philosophical they are not based on facts, you may not agree with kk having authority or with the rules of right and wrong, the legal system etc but that doesn't mean you can ignore them, they have the power and however nice hypothetical situations can sound, they aren't real.
This is because he doesn't have power to instruct you outside the scope of your work and so doesn't have the authority to.
It is their game, they have a vision for it and players play it out, it is their job to create rules which give each player equal standing to coincide with that vision. They can't force you to pay/play their game, if you don't like their game/vision you don't have to play it but they have the right to carry on their vision the way they intended to as they have built it from the ground up and it is their property. Also in a commercial sense they have to follow the majority of their custom base which is against exploiting and pro fair play.
You know GM's can shoot people with normal weapons just like everyone else in the game. Even the lowest gms have teleport and I believe invisibility (unless recently changed) so they can get around and not interfere with the game when not needed. Thats not a good combination when GM's have no stock in their position. But it doesn't matter how many controls you put there will always be a way to manipulate things...
Your and the companies attitude towards corruption heavily encoruages it. For the same reason it is hypocritical to try and force undue respect it is equally as hypocritical to refuse to investigate corruption as long as it is physically possible. Expecting good from people and preparing for the worst are not mutually exclusive. If you have pure motives there is no reason not to be forthcoming and design systems where people can not abuse their power. KK's continual badgering of customers in combination with claiming how uncorrupt gms are and how it is wrong to accuse them because they are volunteers (as if its our job to compensate the people responsible for maintaining the quality of their product) is rediculous.
There was no rules for a lot of things before gms just started getting people in trouble for them. I got teleported and yelled at by a gm just for running around shooting people because he saw my character warp due to lag. He tried to tell me I had to delete my character or he would do it for me. He was obviously very pissed off. I got out of it by arguing with him, but this just shows the type of thing that can be done. (minus maybe the teleport now) That kind of thing happens all the time with police.
Laws are not determined by majority consensus of ethics... The majority often wants to do things that are very unfair and the law does not allow it - like own slaves. They are determined by competent people who usually base them on pure experience of what happens. And wanting punishment for exploits IS NOT the majority consensus anyways. It is natural to believe that when you pay for a game you can do whatever you want to excel in the game.
Situations like the fat man happen all the time anywhere where people regularly face danger. The question about the murderer was a trap although I can't say for sure you fell for it. There is one more thing that is hypocritical- A murderer is created by the events in his life which led him up to the point where he murdered someone. You can stop a murderer by reeducating him and if you can be sure he will not murder again you could let him lose, or at least when he is no longer physically able. The only reason to keep him locked up would be because of the personal whims and hatred of the people afflicted, but if you did that then the system is no better than the murderer. You said to lock him up to prevent him from killing... ok. But you claim that most people have a non selfish sense of right and wrong, how many people do you think would say they wouldn't just assume kill the murderer or at least say never let him see the light of day?
Let me ask you a question, have you ever talked about someone behind their back? This is an act of aggression in which you are delighting in someone elses suffering. Almost everyone does it. The reason most people do this even as they speak of compassion is because they are angry, because they are insecure that the given person doesn't have interest in them, thinks they are better etc. even if they have done nothing purposely to give that impression. Its done because the philosophy which I speak of is the only one that actually works in the real world, and since the subconsious which controls anger only works on inductive reason its the one most peoples emotions are based on. Anyone who does this however does not demonstrate a nonselfish sense of right and wrong.
The only way to counteract the impulse it is to show yourself that people only attack others out of fear by making those people your friends over and over. In this way you teach yourself that passive aggresiveness is based only on fear inductively besides just knowing it deductively.
The fact that everyones emotions work on a philosophy different then the philosophy that you believe in should be a good sign that it is not a good one to base any system on. In the case I just mentioned it doesn't work because most people are inductively ignorant of how the human mind works. But there are plenty of cases where a "fresh out of high school" philosophy of right and wrong is just flat out incorrect. Do you give money to any homeless person on the street? Of course not for all you know he could just go get high with it and make his life worse. And if you and others don't give him money he might realize he has to get out of the situation hes in and clean himself up. And if you use that money yourself you maybe could buy yourself and your wife a nice dinner at a resturaunt and have a good time, and you can be much more sure of that then the happiness your money might bring the homeless person.
Another thing that doesn't make sense about your viewpoint. If everyone uses an exploit, then it is not unfair advantage for any one person to use it. And you probably wouldn't call it an exploit anymore either. There is only one party that has an interest in controlling the use of so-called exploits and thats the developer. Yes KK is in the game, just not the actual mmorpg. Theyre game is to continually get your money for as long as possible, and this is the only game in which the concept of exploits is relevant.
The players do not care about exploits, they only care that the game is fun to play. If it ceases to be fun because exploits allowed them to get ahead to fast they just go play a different game. If someone uses a new tactic on them that they hadn't thought of then they just adapt to it and possibly learn how to do it themselves. This goes for even say duping items. In the case of the basket ball game, if the height of the net is variable in the game then the team with the lower net will simply raise theirs as well. Its only unfair if the rules DICTATE that one side have a higher net then the other team. So the answer is yes its fair because they thought of it first.
If you want to look at the argument against "authority figures" in terms of online definitions then fine... #1 in your list of definitions says that authority is the power to exact obedience. However it is physically impossible to exact obedience without a persons consent. Therefore there is no such thing as an authority figure. You however seem to just be claiming that they have the abillity to enforce your contract. Well fine if you want to look at it that way then I have equal authority over the supposed "authority figures" - I can simply not pay them, or quit my job, or drop a class.
And this is in fact what I am referring to when I say that what KK is doing is bad even though their contract dictates that thats the terms of their deal and thats what you agree to before playing the game. It costs little to have an intelligent system that does not encourage corruption. It costs nothing to treat customers respectfully. It probably SAVES money to adopt a policy of only dealing with exploits by fixing them, and only makes the game more fun for the players. Therefore for any company in KK's position, another company can run a game and make the same or more money doing all the things I have cited. And this is what I am trying to inform other players of, so they can make educated decisions about the competiveness of Neocron.
No company will ever stop all exploiters, because only they know naturally know what "exploiting" is. If banning players does not even stop them from doing it, and the only thing that fixes it is fixing the game, then whats the point at running around banning random players rather than just depending on fixing the problems?
I never agree to disagree because there is only one right answer to every question, and even when you can't find it there is a best answer. Exploiting has nothing to do fairness to other players. And no customers are not against exploiting... It takes a good deal of brainwashing to even get them to know what an exploit is. I respect your debating ability however.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 You know GM's can shoot people with normal weapons just like everyone else in the game. Even the lowest gms have teleport and I believe invisibility (unless recently changed) so they can get around and not interfere with the game when not needed. Thats not a good combination when GM's have no stock in their position. But it doesn't matter how many controls you put there will always be a way to manipulate things...
Yes i know this is true, however recently i haven't heard of or witnessed enough situations which have lead me to believe this goes on. While yes in the past gms have abused their power I don't see it as a problem anymore, atm cheating or breaking of the rules tends to come from players exploiting, though again the exploits around today are a fraction of those in the past. Possibly why its less of a problem atm is with the low pop there is no need for a large number of gms so its easier for kk to control and vet the few they have.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Your and the companies attitude towards corruption heavily encoruages it. For the same reason it is hypocritical to try and force undue respect it is equally as hypocritical to refuse to investigate corruption as long as it is physically possible.
If i've gave the impression i don't think corruption should be investigated then that wasn't my intention, quite the opposite, my view is that as long as KK monitors the situation and keeps it under control I have no criticisms. From what I am aware of, since the corruption issues arose KK clamped down on GMs and so the chance of it happening has decreased.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Expecting good from people and preparing for the worst are not mutually exclusive. If you have pure motives there is no reason not to be forthcoming and design systems where people can not abuse their power. KK's continual badgering of customers in combination with claiming how uncorrupt gms are and how it is wrong to accuse them because they are volunteers (as if its our job to compensate the people responsible for maintaining the quality of their product) is rediculous.
I've not been badgered nor heard anyone accuse them of it before, unless you are referring to bans for exploiting? If thats the case then there is still disagreement on which side is in the wrong . As for not accusing GMs because they are volunteers, again I've never heard that, at least not phrased that way, what has been said is that due to GMs being volunteers and the recruiting process being over the net, its very difficult to screen candidates fully and so some rotten eggs will slip through the cracks and have to be dealt with when their true nature becomes apparent.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 There was no rules for a lot of things before gms just started getting people in trouble for them. I got teleported and yelled at by a gm just for running around shooting people because he saw my character warp due to lag. He tried to tell me I had to delete my character or he would do it for me. He was obviously very pissed off. I got out of it by arguing with him, but this just shows the type of thing that can be done. (minus maybe the teleport now)
There has always been rules, however there has had to be some flexibility to counter exploiting; it is not the gms that make the rules, they just enforce them, if a gm has tried to tell you otherwise I guess he's just one of the "bad eggs". As for the situation that is out of order, yet i would presume that was during the time when KK had too much faith in the goodwill of gms, now as it would take more than one gm (need a senior as well afaik) you would be able to appeal and report the gm for anything he said that was unsatisfactory. he would also need proof to give to the other GMs who would prob monitor you playing (invisibility) to confirm any suspicions of exploits etc.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 That kind of thing happens all the time with police.
As much as I'd like to say thats not true I do know that police do abuse their powers at times, thankfully for the most part those who are given unfair treatment tend to be criminals who are persecuted without enough evidence, this is still no excuse. There are some cases where completely innocent citizens get abused, generally there are racial or other discriminatory motives, however these cases are few and far between, and almost always get highlighted in the media for the injustice caused.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Laws are not determined by majority consensus of ethics...
Most jurisprudence doctrines would disagree; almost all state right and wrong derive from consensus (in some form or another) and the distortion of what is viewed as human nature. And even not taking account of legal philosophy, laws are created by Parliament, which is a representation of the people in a democratic society (replace Parliament with Legislator in your country of origin), they represent the view of those who elect them in creating and altering laws.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The majority often wants to do things that are very unfair and the law does not allow it - like own slaves.
Good theory, bad analogy. Only a minority of people in the western world would believe not being able to own slaves is unfair. Many may believe however that getting a parking ticket for parking on double yellow lines is unfair, this though isn't so much a law of right and wrong, but more of practicality and positive duties for the smooth running of society.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 They are determined by competent people who usually base them on pure experience of what happens.
Yes but that experience is influenced by the views of the majority of society, they can't act against public views of morality (in most circumstances) and furthermore as said above in a democratic society the legislator is elected by the people, the people elect those with common values and experiences and so the laws are created by the views of society in a more direct way. Do you think a legislator could change the law to allow murder and stay in power thus being able to enforce it? No, when the law was in its first stages of being drafted there would be an uproar and most likely a vote of no-confidence in the cabinet.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 And wanting punishment for exploits IS NOT the majority consensus anyways.
Just yesterday, there community forum had a large post with players protesting about an exploit, kk took action about it (though i don't agree with their method). This not only shows kk are listening to the community but that players aren't happy that this exploiting is happening.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 It is natural to believe that when you pay for a game you can do whatever you want to excel in the game.
I'd add within the rules of the game, then agree.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Situations like the fat man happen all the time anywhere where people regularly face danger.
If you mean based on morals you have to make the judgement of their life or yours or one life over many then yes i can see situations where that would occur, an obese man in a cave entrance isn't one however maybe i just lack imagination.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The question about the murderer was a trap although I can't say for sure you fell for it. There is one more thing that is hypocritical- A murderer is created by the events in his life which led him up to the point where he murdered someone. You can stop a murderer by reeducating him and if you can be sure he will not murder again you could let him lose, or at least when he is no longer physically able. The only reason to keep him locked up would be because of the personal whims and hatred of the people afflicted, but if you did that then the system is no better than the murderer. You said to lock him up to prevent him from killing... ok. But you claim that most people have a non selfish sense of right and wrong, how many people do you think would say they wouldn't just assume kill the murderer or at least say never let him see the light of day?
I didn't want to bring rehabilitation into the equation as there is obviously flaws in it, in that the only way to tell if its worked or not for sure is to wait for a crime to be committed. I also find myself dubious of rehabilitation based on the severity and circumstances of the crime. Also to point out under most legal systems life rarely means life. By not letting the murderer see light of day protects society from the danger the criminal imposes, and allows the criminal to live out their life, while yes not freely that is the punishment for committing a wrong, I don't see it as selfish as it is thinking about the safety of society at large, without completely disregarding the rights of the criminal. Yes its a fine balance but one that can work.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Let me ask you a question, have you ever talked about someone behind their back? This is an act of aggression in which you are delighting in someone elses suffering.
That depends what you are talking about, and where it is negative, if it is based in fact or rumour.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its done because the philosophy which I speak of is the only one that actually works in the real world,
There are many different philosophies, each equally right to different individuals, however my criticism was that the rules do exist even if you don't agree or like them, while you are welcome to your own opinions and philosophies you can't ignore rules or laws just because you disagree with them.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The fact that everyones emotions work on a philosophy different then the philosophy that you believe in should be a good sign that it is not a good one to base any system on.
If everyone believed in a system of philosophy different from my own then i would have to reconsider mine as being right, however when it comes to philosophy there is often little facts, its is mainly opinion and so there are always conflicting views, disagreement doesn't make one philosophy right or wrong, I just accept the rules enforced by law and those in authority over me.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 there are plenty of cases where a "fresh out of high school" philosophy of right and wrong is just flat out incorrect.
I agree but I put that down to bad education or not enough philosophies being taught to allow students to create their own opinions.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Another thing that doesn't make sense about your viewpoint. If everyone uses an exploit, then it is not unfair advantage for any one person to use it.
Everyone doesn't exploit though, and by saying everyone should can ruin the game and the developers vision of it, take the current rhino rep exploit, rather than capping chars by fighting mobs should we just all sit our chars in front of a rhino repping it and go afk for 24 hours till we cap? Kind of defeats the purpose of the game in my and most of the communities opinions. More importantly in KKs opinion, as i've said before, being their game it is they who have the right to alter it to fit their vision. Many people believe in fair play, in the same way that over powered hybrids were imbalanced and people condemned them, people condemn exploits which hurt the balance of the game, it makes it less fun. Everyone could have just rolled a hybrid and had a equally over powered character but that wouldn't have been fun and would have restricted game development. In a real life circumstance, two teams might be ahhpy playing a game of football with no rules, not everybody would however as without rules the competition becomes hollow, rules keep the game going smoothly and allow it to run in a orderly manner.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The players do not care about exploits, they only care that the game is fun to play.
True and in my experience most players feel exploits ruin a game and make it less fun.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If it ceases to be fun because exploits allowed them to get ahead to fast they just go play a different game.
Or they exploited to get where they are missing out most of the game and so the fun was removed so they move on to another game. Either way they leave, if they don't find the game fun in playing through it properly then it's obviously not for them.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If someone uses a new tactic on them that they hadn't thought of then they just adapt to it and possibly learn how to do it themselves.
Theres a difference between "tactic" and "exploit", exploits are abusing game mechanics, tactics are using valid game mechanics to your advantage. Who decides whats valid? The people who develop the game.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 This goes for even say duping items.
Whats the point in working for items in a game when you can use features that aren't meant to be in it to get them with little or no effort? Duping ruins mmo's is wrecks economies makes the whole loot from hunting side of the game irrelevant. MMO's aren't just about pvp or the end game, levelling and collecting items are a part of them, they are the method designers have decided in the mmo world you will get items, to act against the game design makes playing it irrelevant.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In the case of the basket ball game, if the height of the net is variable in the game then the team with the lower net will simply raise theirs as well.
And what if they can't? Certain exploits can be class specific, or what if they don't want to, it may ruin the fun for them. Yes you can say that its their choice, but then if the majority are the ones not having fun then the devs have to do something. Not everybody wants to exploit, just as in single player games most people don't see the point in cheats when playing through a game, especially for the first time.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its only unfair if the rules DICTATE that one side have a higher net then the other team. So the answer is yes its fair because they thought of it first.
But what if the net manufacturer didn't intend for the net to have its height varied by the players? And what if by putting both nets at 20m makes the game boring as it's almost impossible for a side to score. A ppu v ppu fight would be pointless and impossible for either to win, certain exploits overpower classes to the extent if everyone did it the game would become stale. Take standing in boxes to avoid being hit, if everyone done it no one could hit anyone.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If you want to look at the argument against "authority figures" in terms of online definitions then fine...
I could easily use the Collins or Oxford English dictionary for a definition but then it wouldn't be a common source all sides have access to.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 #1 in your list of definitions says that authority is the power to exact obedience. However it is physically impossible to exact obedience without a persons consent. Therefore there is no such thing as an authority figure. You however seem to just be claiming that they have the abillity to enforce your contract. Well fine if you want to look at it that way then I have equal authority over the supposed "authority figures" - I can simply not pay them, or quit my job, or drop a class.
You have the right to quit your job etc, you don't have the power to tell your boss what to do however, there is a difference between rights and authority. Obedience is gained through the nature of the power the authority derives from, your boss has authority over you and has the power to tell you want to do as you have an interest in keeping your job, mainly for income and career purposes, due to that interest you have to do what he says or he can fire you, he doesn't have to do what you tell him as he can simply hire another employee, you have rights but they don't give you power over others, just mainly over yourself and your actions.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 It costs nothing to treat customers respectfully.
I agree and with the exception of corruption in the past that they have dealt with, I have never heard of them being rude to customers.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 It probably SAVES money to adopt a policy of only dealing with exploits by fixing them, and only makes the game more fun for the players.
Thats what they do, there has to be a period though between when the exploit is discovered and when they can fix it that they have to police to stop the exploit being used.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Therefore for any company in KK's position, another company can run a game and make the same or more money doing all the things I have cited. And this is what I am trying to inform other players of, so they can make educated decisions about the competiveness of Neocron.
Thats your opinion, while I might not agree with it, I'm not saying its invalid, opinions aren't based on facts, there is no right and wrong, just perception of the given situation. While some people might agree with you, that doesn't make those who don't wrong.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 No company will ever stop all exploiters, because only they know naturally know what "exploiting" is. If banning players does not even stop them from doing it, and the only thing that fixes it is fixing the game, then whats the point at running around banning random players rather than just depending on fixing the problems?
To stop people using them while they fix them, the players who are banned know they will get banned if caught, they are the ones risking it, kk has to make an example of them as a preventative measure, otherwise whenever an exploit is found there will be nothing stopping people using it until it is fixed.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 I never agree to disagree because there is only one right answer to every question, and even when you can't find it there is a best answer.
Right and wrong when it comes to opinions is simply a matter of perspective. Very few of the arguments are fact, at least not the ones that aren't getting off topic, so there is no right, wrong or best answer, every person will see the situation differently.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Exploiting has nothing to do fairness to other players. And no customers are not against exploiting... It takes a good deal of brainwashing to even get them to know what an exploit is.
Customers are very aware of what exploits are, where do you think the first reports arise from? Also read the forums and you will see a vast array of people against them...(see above, the rhino exploit)
Originally posted by Kriminal99 I respect your debating ability however.
I too respect yours, while I don't agree with you I do understand your opinion and argument and can see why others may agree with you.
While I agree in a certain sense that no person can be wrong persay, because they reason using what they have seen so far, I do believe that some philosophies model the real world while others do not.
The reason there are so many different philosophies is because people reason inductively using metaphors. If there is a connection between 2 different ideas a metaphor implies that the second idea has the same qualities as the first. We reason inductively (and therefore our subconsious tells us they are true) that if there is a somewhat strong connection between the two ideas then the metaphor is useful, but only because we rarely scrutinize the reasoning from different directions. The result is an infinite amount of philosophies on complicated matters that "sound" like they are correct. . None of these are likely to model the real world however, and this is the least useful type of inductive reasoning. If you limit yourself to deductive reasoning, then you can see how there is only one answer to every question.
Im not saying that my philosophy is a consious consensus, im saying its the common sense philosophy everyone demonstrates in their every day actions, because they know its the only one that works in the real world. (like in the beggar exapmle)
No people don't want to own slaves anymore, but back in the day it was actually common consensus of southern americans that african americans were not capabable of taking care of themselves in civilized society. Representitives cannot do what the people percieve to be wrong, but they DO do what people possibly didn't previously agree with. If they are right then they are able to convince the people. And in the present day thanks to metaphors people can be convinced even of things that are wrong at least to the point where they wont riot.
A few people posting on the forums are not really a consensus of players against exploits. Alot of people I have seen who make a huge deal about "exploiters" are mmorpg vets who were intimitaded by GM's or devs into not using any strategy not known to be approved and get mad that other players do not succumb to such intimidation.
Any exploit that one player can do, any player can do. If all players use exploits then it is not unfair to any one player. You hit the nail right on the head when you said "what if the manufacturer didn't intend it" The only problem is how can we possibly know what a developer intended, even if we are to accept that we should play the game with the developers interests at heart and not our own? Like I said in an earlier post there are often times where all logic points to something being fair and then the developer considers it an exploit. Even when there are things that people aren't banned for, Gm's still toss around the label "exploit" to intimidate people. For instance back when LOM's had no penalties I had one high level spy that I used to make money. I bought barter, const, and research loms and then bought enough parts to build a bunch of troop carriers or something, then lomed to do each thing and sold the results, making a large profit. There is no bug involved in this process. It was fully intended for LOMs to do what they did. It was fully intended at the time that they have no penalties. By no criteria could this be considered an exploit. Yet it was later deemed to be so, just because the developers had not though far enough ahead to realize this could be done and they didn't want people to be able to do that. It would have been rediculous had I been banned for this.
Item or money duping is about the only obvious "exploit" that I can think of. In the case of the Rhino, or one damaging himself in order to level, it is in fact obvious that they should be allowed. If you level con by being shot, it only makes sense that a person would want to be shot as much as possible until his con is capped. This so called exploit is just trying to limit how much of a powergamer someone can be. And people (martial artists) actually have themselves beaten in real life in order to toughen their skin in muscles. In the case of the rhino repair, the developers were the ones who chose to allow people to level through repairing vehicles. They could have easily come up with any leveling system, but they did not. So out of frustration of their own inabillity to think, they ban paying customers. Thats just brilliant...
The people that do cry "sploiter" do not do it when the developers would actually consider whats being done an exploit. They do it any time someone comes up with a strategy they didn't think of. The developers call anything an exploit which allows peopel to excel faster in the game then they intended. The developers are taking advantage of such people's immature responses to competition to enforce their own interests on the players.
Until you are the subject of unfair treatment it is easy to look at every player that gets in trouble after the fact and tell yourself "Yeah its ok they banned him that seems like an exploit" One day you might be getting in trouble for something you thought was perfectly fair, and then you will realize there is no way to tell when the devs are going to consider something an exploit, and this fact alone will ruin the game because it will have you second guessing all your actions.
Its not true that you cannot tell your boss what to do. If your boss does not want to lose you, then you can as long as what you ask is within reason (for example asking for a raise) If noone takes a teachers class then he will lose his job, if noone buys a companies product then they will go bankrupt. Any so called authority one party has over another is due only to that persons desire to maintain the deal with the other. In a competitive free market, paying customers have many choices and therefore the developers are the party that wants to maintain the contract the most. Any authority is had by the customers. However Neocron TEMPORARILY exists in a non competive market (based on the particular game style) and therefore can succeed somewhat with poor and selfish idealoligies. But the second competitive games start popping up they will either have to change their tone REAL quick or dry up. Especially since handling things the right way costs nothing extra. And looking at the incoming games, darkfall, face of mankind and possibly others look to be poised to take a chunk out of neocron.
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I'll agree in principle that some 'features' do end up being called exploits if a player finds a creative or unintended way to do something, on the other hand there are things that any fool can see are definately not intended and should not be possible (dupes being the most obvious one) - just because there is a grey area at one end of the 'exploit' spectrum doesnt means that anything is ok until you are told it isnt
Rumour is you got banned recently (I have no idea if this is true of not) but if so your post comes across miffed that you got caught - if you did get banned I dont know the circumstances around it so I wont directly comment but going on to say that KK need to cut the players more slack because 'they'll be in trouble soon because of it' (or words to that effect) is a waste of time, a game that has the reputation of a cheaters playground (see another post on this forum) is not likely to attract the 'right' kind of player, only the wrong kind - I'm guessing that KK would rather cheese of players in the manner you describe above than cultivating a reputation of exploiter tolorance and driving away legitimate players and only attacting those that want to cheat/exploit
I didn't get banned for anything, I quit the game ages ago because I got sick of dealing with KK's crap. Im just arguing mostly for the sake of spreading ideas. KK is like the epitomy of a bad way to do buisness, like North Korea vs South Korea or something.
Its amazing how people who actually believe that exploiting has any effect on the player believe that many share their view. If your talking about duping items or money, if everyone does it its not unfair to anyone. Its not the players fault for doing it, theyre goal is to get ahead in the virtual world, and they pay the company to make an arena to allow us to do this. If a game is a haven for exploiters its because that games designers are incompetent. They have a bad product. It certainly is not their place to bitch and whine at customers for their own stupidity.
Forget all these ideas that have been pumped into your head for a minute and start from scratch. Before this mentality, finding bugs in video games and exploiting them was just another way to demonstrate skill. Heck someone could have made an mmorpg just based on finding purposely placed glitches in the game to excel in the game. Id certainly play it.
If everyone in a game is using a "so-called" exploit then its not an unfair advantage for anyone person to use it and its not an exploit. If the game is too easily beaten because it was not designed well then players can simply go play a better game (when there is competition). The only party that truly has an interest in stopping so called "exploits" is the company because they want the game to last as long as possible and get your money. What has happened is people have been brainwashed into thinking that the companies interest is their own, when it is not.
If I ran a company I would make a clause in the contract that stated the server could go down for quick fixes to game damaging exploits before I would threaten my customers. Soon someone will figure out that this is a much better way of doing buisness, and this whole "exploit" idealogy will be ancient history. But heck in a perfect market even this would cause you to lose points - there might be someone else with more vigilant designers whose game always stayed up.
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Originally posted by Kriminal99 Im not saying that my philosophy is a consious consensus, im saying its the common sense philosophy everyone demonstrates in their every day actions, because they know its the only one that works in the real world. (like in the beggar exapmle)
I'd say its too cynical and pessimistic and that believing everyone follows it, subconsciously or not is a bit deluded, it may be your beliefs and they are valid but you can't presume what philosophies others follow.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 No people don't want to own slaves anymore, but back in the day it was actually common consensus of southern americans that african americans were not capabable of taking care of themselves in civilized society. Representitives cannot do what the people percieve to be wrong, but they DO do what people possibly didn't previously agree with. If they are right then they are able to convince the people. And in the present day thanks to metaphors people can be convinced even of things that are wrong at least to the point where they wont riot.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with slavery, in the past if was thought to be ok and so was legal, over time it was decided it wasn't so its not. As peoples opinions changed so did the law.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 A few people posting on the forums are not really a consensus of players against exploits. Alot of people I have seen who make a huge deal about "exploiters" are mmorpg vets who were intimitaded by GM's or devs into not using any strategy not known to be approved and get mad that other players do not succumb to such intimidation.
Its not a few people posting on the forums, its a few hundred and when the active population of the English speaking community in the game is most likely less than a thousand, i'd say thats a large proportion, you may get the impression people don't mind it but then you may have associated with those doing it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The only problem is how can we possibly know what a developer intended
They tell us, its them making the rules about exploits.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 even if we are to accept that we should play the game with the developers interests at heart and not our own? Like I said in an earlier post there are often times where all logic points to something being fair and then the developer considers it an exploit.
Because its not meant to be in the game, they know better than you what is (it's their game!) and it is up to them.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 For instance back when LOM's had no penalties I had one high level spy that I used to make money. I bought barter, const, and research loms and then bought enough parts to build a bunch of troop carriers or something, then lomed to do each thing and sold the results, making a large profit. There is no bug involved in this process. It was fully intended for LOMs to do what they did. It was fully intended at the time that they have no penalties. By no criteria could this be considered an exploit. Yet it was later deemed to be so, just because the developers had not though far enough ahead to realize this could be done and they didn't want people to be able to do that. It would have been rediculous had I been banned for this.
It was never said this was an exploit and nobody was banned for this, KK simply added the penalties. At the start of retail they put loms in in that form to allow people who didn't understand the skill system to fix mistakes, it was the players who said people were abusing it in the way you mentioned, kk simply did something about it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In the case of the rhino repair, the developers were the ones who chose to allow people to level through repairing vehicles. They could have easily come up with any leveling system, but they did not. So out of frustration of their own inabillity to think, they ban paying customers. Thats just brilliant...
First off do you even know what this exploit was? Rhinos could be emote repaired even when at full health, and were giving disproportionate exp, thus people would stock up on remote repair nanites and tape their mouse down and go afk, fully capping a spy in about 24 hours. This really defeats the purpose of the game and the player base complained about how unfair it was, yes they could have done it but as it is obviously cheating they would prefer it was removed so the game can be played as it was intended. KK to fix it until they can patch in another method disabled remote repair tools (this i disagree with, imo they should have just removed exp gain from repair). Nobody was banned for it, they found another method quickly and implemented it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The people that do cry "sploiter" do not do it when the developers would actually consider whats being done an exploit. They do it any time someone comes up with a strategy they didn't think of. The developers call anything an exploit which allows peopel to excel faster in the game then they intended. The developers are taking advantage of such people's immature responses to competition to enforce their own interests on the players.
You are only supposed to level and gain items in a specific way, hence the rules to prevent people cheating to gain these things by other means. In chess you can just pick up a pawn move it over the whole board and take the king, it would be stupid if you could and remove the purpose of the game. Rather you have to move at set intervals and play through the game, get the oppositions king into check mate and then you have won. In a mmo there is also a set way you must play the game to attain the objectives, there may be no fixed "win" at the end, but thats just the nature of these games.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Until you are the subject of unfair treatment it is easy to look at every player that gets in trouble after the fact and tell yourself "Yeah its ok they banned him that seems like an exploit" One day you might be getting in trouble for something you thought was perfectly fair, and then you will realize there is no way to tell when the devs are going to consider something an exploit, and this fact alone will ruin the game because it will have you second guessing all your actions.
its not a question of you know if something is fair, its a question of did you have any doubt in your mind that the devs would view it otherwise, if no player has ever said "thats exploiting" or you have not been informed by any other means you are innocent and you wont get in trouble, just informed and warned. However if you have heard on some form that it might be exploiting its up to you to confirm this and stop doing it.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its not true that you cannot tell your boss what to do. If your boss does not want to lose you, then you can as long as what you ask is within reason (for example asking for a raise)
This isn't a power as such, he can still easily refuse your application and let you quit, the power is in his hands, yes you can say you have the power to quit and not do what he says but as is said before thats just a right you have, you have no way of forcing him to comply to your wishes, you aren't as important to him as your job is to you, if you are then you are most likely in a more freelance position. Also in the everyday work enviroment you can't tell him to do task a but he can tell you what to do, due to the employee worker relationship, this is his power.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If noone takes a teachers class then he will lose his job
Very few lecturers teach just one class, in a school system the school assigns you to set classes, in a University circumstance, the compulsory curriculum is split between the lecturers and the advanced classes , if no one subscribes, does not reflect directly on the lecturer until no one has taken it for a while, they get to go back to their research and carry on teaching their classes which are compulsory.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 if noone buys a companies product then they will go bankrupt.
Yes and? If the company has any contracts underway however, those party to them must fulfil their end of the contract, even if the company goes bankrupt the trustee in bankruptcy will fulfil any contracts that can still be fulfilled.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Any so called authority one party has over another is due only to that persons desire to maintain the deal with the other.
Some authority is imposed or inferred by law and there is no way you can get out of it, the authority of the police for example, or the government.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 In a competitive free market, paying customers have many choices and therefore the developers are the party that wants to maintain the contract the most.
The company wants to maintain the majority of its customers not each one individually, especially when they break the rules set out in the contract.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 therefore can succeed somewhat with poor and selfish idealoligies.
It is just your view they are poor and selfish based on your opinions on exploiting, I don't think its selfish for them to run their product the way they see fit and best for their customers, exploiters are a minority of customers and so they are thinking about the majority base, yes they decide what an exploit is but most customers can guess what is and isn't too based on the objectives within the game.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 But the second competitive games start popping up they will either have to change their tone REAL quick or dry up. Especially since handling things the right way costs nothing extra. And looking at the incoming games, darkfall, face of mankind and possibly others look to be poised to take a chunk out of neocron.
Will it NC's population be hurt by future games? Yes most definitely (not that it can get much worse), but not for the reasons you say, I very much doubt any of these games will turn a blind eye to cheating and if they do they will fail.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its amazing how people who actually believe that exploiting has any effect on the player believe that many share their view.
Look at complaints on all forums, which are a representation of the games community, also note how many people say they quit NC because of the level of exploiting in the past.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If your talking about duping items or money, if everyone does it its not unfair to anyone.
But it defeats the purpose of the game then it makes the game meaning irrelevant, if i want to watch numbers fly up i'll use a calculator, in a mmo your meant to earn cash and items by specific in-game methods only.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its not the players fault for doing it
They know its against the rules, so yes it is.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If a game is a haven for exploiters its because that games designers are incompetent. They have a bad product. It certainly is not their place to bitch and whine at customers for their own stupidity.
They must stop their mistakes being taken advantage of and spoiling the game while they work out a fix.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If the game is too easily beaten because it was not designed well then players can simply go play a better game (when there is competition).
But what if its only too easy because of flaws in the game the designer did not intend. The designers fix the flaws so the game keeps with their intention, and people don't have to go to other games. It also makes the game more interesting for those playing, if your annoyed you can't get ahead using illegitimate means, why not work on getting ahead legitimately? Game not fun for you when you can't cheat?
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If I ran a company I would make a clause in the contract that stated the server could go down for quick fixes to game damaging exploits before I would threaten my customers.
And what if the fix was going to take a few days to develop, why would people subscribe for a service they can't use?
Originally posted by 5150 I'll agree in principle that some 'features' do end up being called exploits if a player finds a creative or unintended way to do something, on the other hand there are things that any fool can see are definately not intended and should not be possible (dupes being the most obvious one) - just because there is a grey area at one end of the 'exploit' spectrum doesnt means that anything is ok until you are told it isnt
I agree, while when it comes to certain exploits there may be some vagueness this doesn't mean you can paint them all with the same brush.
Comments
Eve doesnt hold 10,000 on one server it links multiple servers together so it gives that impression, everyone plays one group of servers, no choice, i dont know exactly how many servers make up the group but the norm for a mmo is a max of about 2k to 3k per server.
One thing you forget though imo nc was never ment to compete with eq or daoc its a small developer and fits a niche in the market, i cant see it ever getting thousands per server and i dont have a problem with that, as long as theres enough people playing for mmo interactions im happy.
Also you cant move through stellar objects
You said it's server didnt have to deal with very many complex things, unlike NC's.
@Cyphor, eve has approx 64 nodes(each node being a seperate PC), each node is dynamic and as a sector becomes more heavily populated, more node power is assigned to it.
So you are completely wrong.
EVE FAQ
"The game world is based on a network of servers in London maintained by CCP, handling all interactions between the world and the players. When players log into the game, they instantly become a part of the same game world as all other players that are logged on at that time."
So no i'm not completely wrong
all i said was the servers are linked so everyone plays together, where in other mmo's there are multiple servers, you get a choice of which server to play. Call them nodes or servers it doesn't really matter how it works.
EVE FAQ
"The game world is based on a network of servers in London maintained by CCP, handling all interactions between the world and the players. When players log into the game, they instantly become a part of the same game world as all other players that are logged on at that time."
So no i'm not completely wrong
all i said was the servers are linked so everyone plays together, where in other mmo's there are multiple servers, you get a choice of which server to play. Call them nodes or servers it doesn't really matter how it works.
No mmo's that I know of have 1 game server = 1 physical server.
Even neocron has multiple boxes per server(iirc)
It's silly to expect a game server to reside only on 1 physical server
I know that, the point isnt how many servers it has but that what would norm be used as a server is linked with others so there is ONE game world rather than many choices...eg pluto saturn uranus venus and jupiter.
Anyway why is Eve being compared to nc, they aren't even similar...
Everything this guy said up to the part about reactor was true. Notice how he says "I know a few of them myself" Even the most shallow and self centered people have friends and usually treat their friends decently. The issue is weather or not they are mature, intelligent and objective enough to run a mmorpg and the answer is no.
Even if you are the type that sucks up when you have to just to keep things easier you will probably have a run in with a gm that you don't know and doesn't know you and who will screw you over. And besides that the number of things which are not allowed takes a large part of the fun out of the game, not only by themselves but in combination with the fact that they are not clearly defined... Leaving you to wonder if anything you do is going to get you in trouble. But don't expect the rules to stop your enemies from using exploits if they happen to be friends with the gms...
You make a lot of excuses for KK. Running a business isn't about excuses. They can do research to try and determine what will happen, how much QA they might need, how long it will really take to develop something. At the very least they could use their ongoing experience to make better predictions about things like release dates. They could use some mathematical modeling to figure out game balance issues which instead they see saw back and forth on based solely on public opinion. They could use some logical thinking to better design the game even with the same amount of content to be more fun towards the end and motivate people to have clan wars and pvp etc. They could learn about people so they would know the best way to handle their customers, and the inherent problems with their current system. All of these things take nothing more than the will to succeed and an honest buisness agenda (ie to provide a service)....
Its also amazing the kinds of statements people will make about KK just because they haven't been the one getting screwed yet. It goes pretty much like this, until a person is the one getting shafted they are naive and defend the game and the company because it has some good gameplay aspects. Then once they get screwed over by a mod, gm, customer service etc they are severely pissed. Think about it... how could any player possibly know the things they claim about the company. for example "they work their socks off" Everyone percieves themselves as working their socks off no matter what and they would tell the customer base that even if they knew they werent. That doesn't mean they are actually working hard. The only way to gauge this is by how you and other players are treated and your experience. That the game can be in shambles at times and players are often treated terribly and then anyone could actually believe them when they say "were working our socks off" is silly, but not as silly as a fanboi repeating it from his own mouth as if he knew somehow.
How bad the service is depends on the problem. Several players have lost everything they had in the game due to a bug (it all just got randomly deleted) and didn't get any of it back. The problem with them being "hard on exploiters/cheaters" is that the majority of exploits people get in trouble for are not well defined. You might know someone who gets banned for a particular "exploit" such as poisoning someone and then zoning to avoid penalties, but then when you send pictures of some clan that is friends with a gm doing it might not be a real exploit all the sudden. Funny about that email, because they always send auto reply emails with a ticket number right after sending in a tech request.
btw you left out that its not a pure fps system... that would be kind of lame actually. You have to aim before you can shoot like deus ex.
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Issues about gm's etc have been discussed in other threads and while yes at the start of retail there may have been a small problem with it, kk at a company cracked down and fixed the problem to the extent the problem isn't there anymore. Why dredge up information from over a year ago that isn't relevant anymore? How long has it been since you played now anyway? Im not trying to be rude but the game "facts" change constantly and if i remember correctly you left months ago, therefore criticizing the state of the game based on out of date info seems slightly unfair imo.
I agree with you on kk not giving the impression of the best business minds at times, but then a lot of that in the past was down to cdv and the marketing of the game. Lets just hope with doy on the way they pull their socks up and manage to get some advertising done. By the looks of things they are starting with banner ads and competitions appearing on a few well known gaming sites...this one inc
You know before I respond I have to ask the question what makes you think you know that this stuff doesn't happen any more. It makes perfect sense that people who experience bad treatment at the hands of the company reps in whatever form they may take know that this stuff doesn't happen. But how could any person know that it DOESN'T happen? Its physically impossible. Of course they are going to say it happened before but its been stopped. In reality the only way to tell if it doesn't happen any more when it once did is that eventually the complaints and people saying that it does happen will die down.
I know for 2 reasons - A) I check up from time to time on whats going on and know people that play the game still.
It isn't an issue of weather there are dishonest gms working for them or not or weather they pay attention. Their system is inherently flawed. Imagine if there was such a thing as volunteer policemen that had nothing to lose for abusing their power. It doesn't matter how many controls you put on them, they would always find a way to abuse their power once they got comfortable.
And besides that 90% of KK's policies are inherently dishonest. For example, if you have nothing to hide then you have no reason to censor people. Investors etc should know what running a given business is like and therefore are not going to be shocked about legitimate complaints on there etc. If a company has more such complaints than another company then they choose the one with less for finding a way to deal with their customer better. But censoring your customers complaints so you can hide how badly you treat them is dishonest and in the long run its suicide. Besides censoring the forums this goes as well for their lack of willingness to investigate complaints about gms etc. If you have nothing to hide then don't hide it.
Their policy for dealing with "exploits" is inherently dishonest as well. If you failed to foresee possible imbalances in the game that is your fault not the players. It is the players goal to find the best way to succeed in the game. To constantly attack players for their own inability to design properly is rediculous. Of course noone is perfect, but take responsibillity for your own shortcomings especially when you are running a business. No company should ever ban someone for doing anything short of hacking the game with an external program. At the very worst a company should shut down a server to stop an exploit for ruining the game long term and get it back up as soon as possible.
That goes for their level of agression towards their customers for any other reason as well. If they have a problem they should learn how to overcome it not chastize their customers out of their own fear that they don't know how to run a buisness.
PS no offense but can we please stop with the "What do you know you left?", "Oh well you still play it so you must really like it" defense. People who use this are basically trying to claim that anything bad said about the company is not true just because its criticism which is just rediculous.
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i still fail to understand why u guys need to bash at neocron, so some of u people have disagreements with gm's or even forum moderators and quit the game in a tantrum and take it upon themselves to trash the game everywhere you can, if im wrong im wrong but thats the image you guys paint. ive played lots of mmo's and some have had far worse customer support, EnB's support was dire, and it also had a huge amount of CTD's (crash to desktops) more frequent than fatals. yes fatals are an inconvinience but some of u guys blow it way out of proportion.
the game crashes every now and again, but so do loads of other mmo's and neocron is far from the least stable.
there is lag like in every other mmo, the effects of it however dont cause rubber banding
the sync bug happens when the servers are really laggy 90% of the times ive had it its been totally harmless as most of the dangerous zones dont get laggy enough to have the sync bug
vanishing backpack is very very very rare but like its stated in the tos they dont replaced lost items die to the people who kept scamming
the community, some people are very nice and some people are fuckers new players wont get killed all the time beacuse they start with the le chip if they take it out then they might get attacked by the assholes, my adivce is keep it in.
some people here lie and some people here speak the truth its a matter of opinion all opinions are biased like everyone here. my biased favourable probably inconcivable to some of the pople hear opinion is that the bugs that exist dont impact on the gaming experience enough to stop it being fun and fucking adictive. everyone who played it for ages thought that at some point.
nc fun > nc bugs. you cant flame me for my opinion
-=- NC > SWG :-D -=-
gank gank gank gank gank...
It isn't meant to discredit your opinion, rather bring up the point that the longer you are away from a game the more it changes and if your not playing your not up to date with whats going on and so your info might be out of date. You have said you try to keep up to date so you may know some of what has changed but without playing you cant know it all.
Why i don't think gm's are abusing their powers currently? Its as simple as i haven't heard of it and have had no experiences where i would have to think otherwise. I also have faith in the measures taken by kk (logging what gms do and restricting their powers, cant alter char stats or spawn equipment etc.). Could i be wrong and it is happening? Yes, (even if i doubt it), but if the average player isn't finding it disrupting their game then does it really matter? If it is happening it cant be anything major or it would have been uncovered.
As for exploiting, players don't normally get a ban if what they have done has been innocent, however if you purposely abuse mechanics in the game and you are aware its against the rules i agree with being banned for it. Players have to be responsible for their own actions.
As for censorship, the mods on the official forums are very fair imo, they follow the rules which are there to stop chaos and any attention being drawn to specific players etc. Most threads that are deleted either discuss specific exploits, are spam or bring attention to specific players. Every game forum is as strict as this from my experience, its just that being a pvp based game nc attracts alot of immature people who find it hard to control themselves and act within the rules.
Because any system dependent on people acting in other peoples best interest rather than their own
is doomed to miserable failure (see communism) People are selfish, every person is the center of their own universe, and the only thing that counteracts this is that people need each other in order to make themselves happy. The best overall world result from everyone using their own resources to make themselves happy.
As long as KK's system is dependent on unpaid volunteer gms to be honest its not going to work, but besides that I know that stuff still goes on because I read the forums when outbursts happen before the threads are locked/deleted, know people that still play, and because people who get screwed badly by them often come here after.
But btw there is a fundamental error in your reasoning - You believe KK because you haven't heard it happeneing to many people, but KK censors any complaints regarding the subject so of course you don't hear about it until it happens to YOU. And besides why would KK need to censor complaints about this stuff if its not going on? There is no legitimate reason.
And about the logs, controls etc, you really have no clue unless you go there and see the logs, the strict rules that require them to check ANY time someone makes an accusation AND requires them to fire the gm for doing something wrong regardless of who they did it too. It is in KK's best interest to lie about this stuff therefore it is grossly naive to just assume they are telling the truth.
Continuing the theme of interests, it is the players interest to excel in the game. It is the developers interest to create a game that cannot be beaten easily so they can get the players money for a longer period of time. It is most certainly NOT the players responsibility to make sure they do not excel too quickly or speculate as to what the developers intended or did not intend. That goes against the whole reason they are paying for the game. The notion that a company should ban players for their own lack of foresight is absolutely absurd. We pay the company to make an arena for us to pursue goals in. If there is a shortcut or problem with the arena it means we did not get what we paid for.
The rules of their forums are dishonest themselves. Punishing for discussing exploits is dishonest for the reason outlined above, punishing for discussing corruption is dishonest because the only reason for this is to allow mistreatment of customers while not suffering the consequences (although it is ultimately unsuccesful in this goal), and who cares about bringing attention to specific players. They let "whos the best threads" stand all the time so I gather that you missed the true reason behind whatever you were talking about there. But besides this stuff the mods do not limit their activity to enforcing forum rules, there is in fact a thread linked from this forum where the mod attempts to restrict the participants to bashing this forum rather than the Neocron one. There are other reasons the mods try and bully posters as well, and in fact many of the current forum rules started out as just the poorly reasoned ideas of what should be done by some snot nosed forum moderator. And you can believe they were enforced long before they became rules.
But you go ahead and continue to believe that KK has your best interests at heart. You might ask yourself though, why every major MMORPG company REALLY is so bad about meeting deadlines, when it has been proven time and time again that people will continue to pay for moths on end thinking that something new is just around the corner, and that even players who leave will come back for the new stuff.
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After playing for almost 2 years and not running into any corruption yes i am happy about the levels. Yes it has gone on but i haven't heard of gm corruption in almost a year, that includes the forums. Also yes part of the problem may have been volenteer gms, however only the top gms have to power to do anything of consequence now, they are all very credible people most of them being kk employees and paid. Also to pay all gms would cost the company alot meaning a higher sunscription and alot more work for a small company. GM corruption happens in all mmo's, from what i've seen lately nc appears to have relatively minor probs compared to some others about.
The comments edited on the forums are about exploits and kk are actively banning people for it as any decent company would. I can't believe someone is trying to defend exploiting
If a person leaves his keys in his car by mistake, does that make it ok to steal it? In mmo games, due to there size, having the foresight to see every possible problem which could cause an exploit is impossible imo. The people who are guilty of exploiting know what they are doing and they know it is wrong. To go out of your way, abusing the game mechanics to give you an advantage over other players is wrong, simple as that, the game is meant to be played in a certain way and like all games it has rules you have to adhere to, if a player doesn't want to play by the rules they get banned.
Football would be a lot easier if players picked up the ball and ran with it, doesn't mean their allowed to
This is one mans view of RP (more specifically your view of RP in Neocron) while everyone is entittled to an optinion, and yours is equally valid its important to remember that other people may have their own ideas about RP that will be different
Personally, RP in Neocron for me was more about politics than gunfights - red = dead is far too dumbed down for my liking, while it works for some factions like City Admin Vs Twilight Guardian it doesnt work [as well/at all] for factions like NEXT Vs Protopharma - 2 city factions that, while they wouldnt be opposed to covert strikes against one another, would avoid all out conflict because it would be bad for business, their reputations and for the city (and its much needed unity) as a whole.
red = dead introduces zero tension in an encounter between hostiles because you _know_ someones going to pull the trigger. Theres no attempted parley(sp?) negitiations, bribes etc and thus (IMO) no RP. One person is going to die, its normally prettu obvious which one and the encounter plays out the way everyone expected (the expecter loser...loses and the attacker continues on his way, or camps the belt waiting for the now-even-weaker-player to return and collect his item(s) )
Red = dead also expects maxed out players to automatically kill lower levels who have no chance or defence (IMO one of the biggest problems the game has and certainly [a big] part of the reason for the player base decline) and seem to expect lower level runners to suicidally attack higher level runners - no RP here either, just people with either no regard for their own lives or people mindlessly pulling that trigger again
How can you possibly claim you have seen no signs of corruption. I just told you I know people playing the game that are still having problems and you claim its not true. Of course you haven't seen any signs of it if you simply claim that anyone saying the gms screwed them over are lying. If everyone who had a problem with it were allowed to post about it on the forums you would see how much of a problem it is, but they aren't allowed to post about it.
Stealing and trying to get somewhere in a mmorpg have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you would try to relate the two shows just how brainwashed you are. There is no clearly defined line between trying to excel and exploiting.
Here is an example of what I mean. When I fought mobs I used to run behind cover and shoot the mobs with only part of my virtual body exposed so I could easily shoot the mobs and they could not shoot me. Is this an exploit or not? Lets weigh the evidence.
Against being an exploit:
1) Its done in real life 2) Its common sense 3) If the programmers didn't want to allow this all they would have had to do is make it so weapons fire shot from the same point that enemy fire snapped to.
For: It allows you to kill large numbers of mobs without being killed as long as you remain vigilant.
Obviously this is not an exploit right? Wrong. Apparently if some snot nosed gm with limited mental capacity decides it doesn't seem fair to the mobs you can get banned. And several people did. The gm tried to say that you could only run behind cover to heal. Now it no longer is considered an exploit last I heard.
If you want to claim exploits are wrong then you first have to answer this question... What is the criteria for determining if something is an exploit?
Because right now the criteria being used is just weather or not the gm likes it or not. I'll give you a hint : The best answer is that there is no such thing as an exploit because it is the developers responsibility to design the game correctly.
The only POSSIBLE alternative is to claim what KK had it defined as before but did not adhere to, which is taking advantage of something which is OBVIOUSLY a bug in the game such as duping items by for example turning off the computer when you log out or something like that. But it is still stupid to blame PAYING CUSTOMERS for your mistakes. YOU DONT PAY PEOPLE MONEY TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO.
And besides that look back at say classic platform games, the beginning of gaming. When you fight say an end boss, most games had some position where you could stand and the enemy couldn't get to you. In some games this was done on purpose to give a way to beat the bad guy. In other games it was a glitch. In either case the player didn't stop and think "Oh Im exploiting this is wrong" The only reason its an issue now is because greedy ass mmorpg developers dont want you to get ahead faster than they intended so they get less of your money.
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I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist so i prefer to experience things first hand or see proof before I accept it. Give me proof of current gm corruption, screenshot etc and il agree and im sure send that same screenshot to kk and they'll do something about it
As for exploits, it is an exploit to hit a mob where it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to hit you, this gives certain players unfair advantage over others and removes the skill which is not what was intended. Those banned were well aware it was against the rules, yet persisted. They deserved getting banned because they purposely broke the rules, you need rules in EVERY game and players have to adhere to them!
As for comparing this exploit to old single player games...them games also had codes you could give yourself god mode etc. Suppose we should allow mmo player to use that to eh?
The difference is in a single player game you are playing against yourself so if you want to cheat its up to your standards and if you still find a game fun while cheating. In online gaming however you compete against other players and so cheating is not allowed as it gives cheaters an unfair advantage over others.
EVERY MMO has rules just as all good games in other formats do, if you cant play by rules you shouldn't be playing with other players simple as that.
Games developers have every right to make up the rules and tell you how to play their game because it is THEIR GAME, if you don't want to pay to play by their rules then don't!
Also devs arent super humans they cant foresee every exploit possible, just because its possible doesnt mean its not against the rules.
You are seriously missing the point here. First of all about the corruption, what makes you think its going to be something that pictures can be taken of? It could simply be the act of not investigating the exploits used by friends of his, something that happened to me. Whatever restrictions are put on gms, the gms know what they are and how to do whatever they want and not get caught. Thats why you see flaming mad players posting on the forums and all they have is a pic of the gm saying "stfu" or something. The fact that the players are flaming mad SHOULD make you realize something. Of course the gms are going to make it hard to prove.
Innocent till proven guilty doesn't mean you lend everyone around you cash with no paper trail and no way to prove that you lent them anything and expect them to pay you back. There is only one way to deal with the issue of corruption that is not hypocritical and that is to assume everyone IS selfish and corrupt and will only do what is expected of them if it is in their own best interest.
Next about exploits, Im not talking about some dude hiding where the mob couldn't get to him in some boxes. Im talking about a time where a gm banned people just for ducking behind a wall. I argued with the gm on the help channel about it and he was saying your only allowed to duck behind cover to heal and you ahve to run out in the open to fight. I don't think that person is even a gm anymore, and I don't think anyone else has tried to claim that but he did ban people for it.
Plus how does someone even know if the mob can get to you or not. Am I supposed to wait till I get killed at every spot I want to fight mobs from just to make sure I can? You think I pay them money for that crap?
Stop trying to argue with meaningless cliches and metaphors, if you have a point make it. The single player game example was to show that there is no fine line between smart playing and exploiting.
It's not an "unfair" advantage. If I am smart enough to say calculate the fixed and unit costs and the profit for making different items in an mmorpg and then discover I can make a fortune by manufacturing certain items is it "unfair" that I am smarter than people who can't do this? You want to go around handicapping everyone with more brains than you so the world can be what you percieve to be fair? Unless something is clearly defined as an exploit to everyone, if you DON'T do it then you can expect to be left in the dust in an online game. Theres always going to be people like me who will do it and then bitch out anyone who tries to claim its an exploit because it wasn't clearly defined to be. And others who will just do it thinking its ok.
Even if your talking about hacking its still not an "unfair advantage" because anyone can do this. There is an argument against hacking, but this argument isn't worth crap for any purpose. Sounds like your just regurgitating the bs arguments off of the Neocron website...
The rules of an MMORPG are controlled by the design of the game. There is no need to make rules such as in say basketball. Its not impossible to do so, but the thing that makes it stupid to do so when you can control the game simply by its design is the fact that people are PAYING YOU to play the game.
If a game is boring as heck because the design is terrible then noone plays it. The company doesn't make any money. If a company (in most cases) treats their customers like crap then people are not going to remain and they don't make any money. This is subject to the amount of competition and the value of the service. In the case of Neocron you have a very valuable service to the people that play it and very little competition. It is only this enviornment that this kind of attitude can exist at all without the company going under instantly.
Soon a mmorpg company with at least half a brain between its members will figure out it doesn't cost anything to treat customers decently when you know what you are doing and makes them much more attractive then other companies. When this happens companies like KK and idealogies like yours where "The company is always right" will cease to exist.
No the devs aren't perfect, that doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibillity for their own screw ups rather than rampage at the customers for being frusterated at themselves.
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To your first point, i never believe anything except what i hear from those i respect. In online games most people get so deluded by their triumphs that when struck down they find any excuse as to why, "he hacked"..."he had god mode" etc, why not think about lag, skill, bugs etc, just because it looks fishy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.
I seriously pity anyone who takes that sad viewpoint in life.
Next a gm can't ban anyone...he has to refer a situation to senior gms, who based on FACTS make a decision on what to do about the player.
I'm not talking about using initiative, im talking of exploits that were made perfectly clear were not allowed yet people persisted and they wondered why they got banned. Children of five know the difference between right and wrong, is it really so hard for you to grasp? KK own the game, they make the rules, they say don't do that or you get banned, people do it, their surprised they get banned
There is need to make rules as there are always ways in which a player can abuse game mechanics, EVERY MMORPG HAS RULES! As for basketball, i suppose everybody who plays basketball plays professionally?
Games devs don't take their "screw ups" out on players, however once aware of problems that take time to fix they make it clear to abuse the problem is exploiting and anyone caught in the act will have consequences. Those who abuse the mechanics innocently (don't know they are doing anything wrong), get off with a warning, but if they know they are doing something wrong they get banned...THEY KNOW ITS WRONG YET THEY PERSIST.
If an authority figure tells you not to do something, you don't do it, to be in authority means they have control over a scope of activities, in a MMO case devs in authority over the game, if you act against the authority you are punished. It happens in all online gaming and in life, work hierarchy, military, school...the legal system!
I really don't see how i can make it any clearer...try cleaning your monitor.
Losing and claiming you have been hacked is not the same thing as claiming a gm cursed you out or refused to investigate an exploit, or that a person suddenly died or something dissapeared from their cabinet. While someone might start claiming someone hacked just because they lost, its very unlikely that someone is going to lie and claim one of these things. As much as you claim that people lie out of frustration, you refuse to consider that KK is not the most trustworthy buisness because of your fanboy attitude (no offense) and the fact that you argue with people who complain and thus they become your opponents. Objectivity is indeed a valuable trait to have, but I would not say you have it.
As for my "sad viewpoint" it is not A viewpoint it is the only valid one. It has been proven time and time again that systems that depend on people to consider other people's well being more than their own are doomed to failure. This is because people only have A) a limited amount of resources and
are barely competent to know how they can increase their own happiness with their limited resources much less anyone else. Like I said the factor that counteracts this is peoples need for other peoples respect or warmth to make themselves happy. I go the extra step to call it hypocritical because by by trying to enforce any other system on a person you are trying to make themselves value themself as worthless since you want them to trade the infintesimal amount of happiness their effort and resources would bring to other people for the large amount of happiness it would bring themself.
It was said up until recently that the gms will be solely responsible for determining and enforcing punishment for exploits on the website. And yes people did get banned for using cover.
First of all there is no such thing as right and wrong outside of human perception. Second, Children of 5 have a very naive and unthoughtout view of right and wrong (as do you) that does not weather in the real world. Any number of situations would instantly shatter such beleifs, and even without direct demonstration of their incorrectness the world makes it clear that they are unrealistic over time. If a fat man is stuck in a cave exit and you and your 5 friends cannot escape before dieing without blowing the fat man up do you do it or not? If a man murders someone should he also be put to death? If you value human life above all else then you cannot kill him as long as he can be kept from murdering anyone else. If you do not value human life above all else then his crime is not as serious. If you believe in an "eye for an eye" then you cannot kill him unless he does the exact same thing the person did to him before he was killed. The truth is the ideas of right and wrong of most people are based on nothing but ignorance and selfishness.
In basketball, the position of KK is a immature crybaby player, who in response to every new tactic thought up by his opponent, yells "HEY THATS CHEATING". Perhaps KK hangs around the basket waiting for the opponent to approach the basket and the opponent instead shoots a three pointer. It would take an infinite amount of rules to limit the opponent to only doing things that the player expects, and if this was done there would no longer be any uncertainty to the game and there would be no game anymore. KK does not play Neocron, but they play the game of trying to get peoples money and they don't like exploits because it makes them lose that game. Rather than set out on this impossible, stupid and selfish task, the unexpecting player should just learn and adapt to the new strategies. For KK that means they should simply adjust the game to eliminate what they didn't expect or want the people to be able to do, and become more vigilant in their designing of the game. And if people do not like the game after what they eliminate they just leave.
What part of this is so difficult for you to understand. Its NOT wrong to exploit, that is a very naive and selfish viewpoint on the behalf of the developers. Even calling "adapting to the game" exploiting is propaganda.
Now the source of the errors in your reasoning become even more apparent. There is no such thing as a true authority figure. Trying to force someone to respect you when you haven't earned it is inherently hypocrytical. Furthermore the only example you cited which even resembles an MMORPG is school, which is equally as screwed up. Do you not think it silly when someone repeatedly says how they beat up so many people and noone should mess with them because of it? Do you not think that this person should prove it rather than trying to force undeserved respect? It is no different with any other situation.
The design of school started when great philosophers such as Socrates challenged the ideas of everyone and earned the respect of many young people. These young people then sought out these philosophers and asked them to share their ideas, and challenged them. In todays day and age, we have streamlined the teaching process so that any schmo can become a teacher. This would be fine, were it not for the fact that not every teacher, in fact few teachers actually earn the respect of their students. Instead people pay the teachers salaries their entire lives, they only exist because of the students, and yet the teachers and staff try and force the students to give them undue respect. The only reason this system was not thrown out ages ago is because most students are un self sufficient young people. Were most students independent adults then this school would be nothing like it is now.
In the other cases, your boss is still not an authority figure. You do what he tells you only because you want to be paid. Everyone knows subconsiously it is inappropriate for him to make demands not relevant to the job (which is the deal you made with him) or treat you disrespectfully. That is why people get angry when they attempt to do so.
The whole concept of exploits is really quite simple... A Company with KK's position is trying to force you to work for ITS own desires rather than your own which is immature and selfish.
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While i agree being cussed or refusing to investigate an exploit is an obvious abuse of gm power, under these circumstances you can report them gm, and take evidence, if the evidence is indisputable then kk would have to take action. As for things disappearing from cabinets or suddenly dieing, I see that as jumping to the wrong, first and easiest conclusion. Snipers can kill very quickly, and people can misplace things or their account can be "hacked". Yes if well set-up the char might have reason for suspicion, but then it may also be a bug and it wouldn't exactly be the first bug in nc
As for "hacking" it has been proved that under most circumstances it happens due to shared accounts (yes proved in some cases where items could be tracked/evidence was found), while I have no facts to say no accounts have been properly "hacked" no one can prove that they have either unfortunately(if there are people being hacked, I'd rather evidence was found so that something can be done about it.)
Also I disagree, I've seen many cases where people in clans Ive been in have sent exploit reports after op wars they lost because "he seemed too fast", "he couldn't die" etc. Yes, again I can't prove it wasn't a gm using his mystical powers to boost the player or give him god mode, Im pretty confident that in most cases its either lag or people not liking to loose.
I'm not disagreeing that some people aren't influenced by greed and are selfish and corrupt; I believe your view point is sad by painting everyone with that brush. If you second guess or presume everyone you meet in life has ulterior motives then I find it sad as I can't imagine not being able to trust someone. If the phrase was used to try and emphasise a level of extremism in your view then that's possibly not as bad, but I prefer to judge a person on their actions rather than pre-suppose them.
Also without rules there would be anarchy, a system has to be enforced or conflicting views of what is right and wrong will result in chaos, a general consensus based on the views of society in general is used to determine moral rules and how they are implemented and enforced.
When applying this to mmo's, the company becomes the authority and with good right, they design the game, they have the copyrights, it is their intellectual property. Just as you can invite people to your house they can invite people to play their game and just as when you invite people to your house you expect them to abide by your rules, those who play a mmo must abide by theirs. Yes you pay to play but you pay to play by the rules, you agree contractually when you subscribe to comply with the rules created by kk, they as the owners, developers and company who run the game have every right to create and apply rules they feel are required. If you disagree with the rules, you aren't forced to play, you can cancel and quit.
Gms was in plural, and regardless that was "up until recently", as this post is about a review of the current state of the game and not its history the past doesn't apply
I have yet to see any proof or hear of any case of being banned for using cover, with the exception of here. Yes people were banned for hitting a mob where there was no chance of it hitting them and rightly so, it gives them an unfair advantage and removes skill much like macros in other games. However, if a case of the above did arise, it would take multiple gms to implement a ban, thus a gm with a grudge wouldn't be able to have you banned without proof of an exploit.
NB: there is no rule that you can use cover.
It is created by consensus of society, based on moral views in the age to which rules and laws are enacted. It may be objective with people in disagreement over certain topics however that is irrelevant, right and wrong are created in laws and rules so to prevent chaos and protect the general population from anarchy and corruption.
I find (most) five year olds have a very pure view of right and wrong, unpolluted by the corruption of the world. And the rules are apparent and true in the real world, whether people abide by them is another story...
I can't really picture your analogy outside of a cartoon situation so I'll forego it and move on to the next one.
You put him in prison for life, thus preventing him from killing again without sinking to his level.
They arise from values past down through history that allow people to enjoy their life and that they accumulate in it without interruption from an unwanted party. They protect the populous from harm, and allow the smooth running of society. They are the complete opposite of selfishness as they promote the helping of others and condemn the harming of another.
KK are the referees and governing body, they create the rules and enforce them, they don't take part in the game and so can't be the "crybaby player".
Rules aren't there to limit players; they're there to create a level playing field so that all players compete against each other using legitimate, in game means. Exploits are prohibited as they are taking advantage of flaws in the game mechanics which weren't intended to be in the game, the games company makes it clear it isn't allowed, and then work on removing the possible action/exploit. Yes they made the mistake but they also have to try their best to fix it to allow a level playing field for all players.
Using the basketball analogy again, would it be fair if one team played with the net at a 1m level and their oppositions net was at 20m?
As the developers they have a vision for the game and how they decide it should work, it is their game (see above) if they find they have made a mistake in the implementation or design of a certain aspect it is their job to fix that error, and prevent people from abusing it.
It's the developers' game, they make the rules, the rules are there to make the game fair. If they decide something is against the rules it is and the players have to abide by it. Also there is nothing wrong with "adapting to the game", you simply aren't allowed to abuse flaws which aren't meant to be in the game to your advantage, if you do without knowing you shouldn't be banned however after kk makes it clear it is not to be done and is not legitimate to do something in the game and makes it a rule not to do it, then by persisting you are breaking the rules and you are no longer innocent.
Authority doesn't have to derive from respect (at least not individual respect), it is created by power, more importantly those who have power have the authority to enforce it. KK is invested with the power over their property by law, their property being intellectual and the game neocron itself. They have the authority over the game due to this power inferred on them by law. While your opinions are very philosophical they are not based on facts, you may not agree with kk having authority or with the rules of right and wrong, the legal system etc but that doesn't mean you can ignore them, they have the power and however nice hypothetical situations can sound, they aren't real.
I think the bully who beats people up should be punished by the school, his parents and if it comes to it the law. Taking the law into your own hands is never the answer, and violence solves nothing. In a school the authority is the teachers not the bullies or any other form of pupil, they are simply those who abuse the rules.
I don't disagree with you over the state of current school systems, though it may be slightly over dramatic, which may be down to differences between the UK and US schooling systems. However this is getting slightly off topic...
He has the power to exert rules on you, you must obey his commands within the scope of your job, if you don't he has the power to punish you, (see above) authority doesn't require respect (while it can help), it requires power over a given situation and your boss does have that over his employees.
And this is the power and influence he has over you.
This is because he doesn't have power to instruct you outside the scope of your work and so doesn't have the authority to.
It is their game, they have a vision for it and players play it out, it is their job to create rules which give each player equal standing to coincide with that vision. They can't force you to pay/play their game, if you don't like their game/vision you don't have to play it but they have the right to carry on their vision the way they intended to as they have built it from the ground up and it is their property. Also in a commercial sense they have to follow the majority of their custom base which is against exploiting and pro fair play.
To finish up, I seem to be repeating myself a lot and get the impression we are going round in circles in our arguments. While the arguments are a lot more constructive than a lot of posts on these boards it does seem we cant see eye to eye on these points so it may be better to agree to disagree? I am quite satisfied that both sides of the argument have been laid out and Im sure those who read it can create their own opinions, based on what is said.
Authority doesn't have to derive from respect (at least not individual respect), it is created by power, more importantly those who have power have the authority to enforce it. KK is invested with the power over their property by law, their property being intellectual and the game neocron itself. They have the authority over the game due to this power inferred on them by law. While your opinions are very philosophical they are not based on facts, you may not agree with kk having authority or with the rules of right and wrong, the legal system etc but that doesn't mean you can ignore them, they have the power and however nice hypothetical situations can sound, they aren't real.
This is because he doesn't have power to instruct you outside the scope of your work and so doesn't have the authority to.
It is their game, they have a vision for it and players play it out, it is their job to create rules which give each player equal standing to coincide with that vision. They can't force you to pay/play their game, if you don't like their game/vision you don't have to play it but they have the right to carry on their vision the way they intended to as they have built it from the ground up and it is their property. Also in a commercial sense they have to follow the majority of their custom base which is against exploiting and pro fair play.
You know GM's can shoot people with normal weapons just like everyone else in the game. Even the lowest gms have teleport and I believe invisibility (unless recently changed) so they can get around and not interfere with the game when not needed. Thats not a good combination when GM's have no stock in their position. But it doesn't matter how many controls you put there will always be a way to manipulate things...
Your and the companies attitude towards corruption heavily encoruages it. For the same reason it is hypocritical to try and force undue respect it is equally as hypocritical to refuse to investigate corruption as long as it is physically possible. Expecting good from people and preparing for the worst are not mutually exclusive. If you have pure motives there is no reason not to be forthcoming and design systems where people can not abuse their power. KK's continual badgering of customers in combination with claiming how uncorrupt gms are and how it is wrong to accuse them because they are volunteers (as if its our job to compensate the people responsible for maintaining the quality of their product) is rediculous.
There was no rules for a lot of things before gms just started getting people in trouble for them. I got teleported and yelled at by a gm just for running around shooting people because he saw my character warp due to lag. He tried to tell me I had to delete my character or he would do it for me. He was obviously very pissed off. I got out of it by arguing with him, but this just shows the type of thing that can be done. (minus maybe the teleport now) That kind of thing happens all the time with police.
Laws are not determined by majority consensus of ethics... The majority often wants to do things that are very unfair and the law does not allow it - like own slaves. They are determined by competent people who usually base them on pure experience of what happens. And wanting punishment for exploits IS NOT the majority consensus anyways. It is natural to believe that when you pay for a game you can do whatever you want to excel in the game.
Situations like the fat man happen all the time anywhere where people regularly face danger. The question about the murderer was a trap although I can't say for sure you fell for it. There is one more thing that is hypocritical- A murderer is created by the events in his life which led him up to the point where he murdered someone. You can stop a murderer by reeducating him and if you can be sure he will not murder again you could let him lose, or at least when he is no longer physically able. The only reason to keep him locked up would be because of the personal whims and hatred of the people afflicted, but if you did that then the system is no better than the murderer. You said to lock him up to prevent him from killing... ok. But you claim that most people have a non selfish sense of right and wrong, how many people do you think would say they wouldn't just assume kill the murderer or at least say never let him see the light of day?
Let me ask you a question, have you ever talked about someone behind their back? This is an act of aggression in which you are delighting in someone elses suffering. Almost everyone does it. The reason most people do this even as they speak of compassion is because they are angry, because they are insecure that the given person doesn't have interest in them, thinks they are better etc. even if they have done nothing purposely to give that impression. Its done because the philosophy which I speak of is the only one that actually works in the real world, and since the subconsious which controls anger only works on inductive reason its the one most peoples emotions are based on. Anyone who does this however does not demonstrate a nonselfish sense of right and wrong.
The only way to counteract the impulse it is to show yourself that people only attack others out of fear by making those people your friends over and over. In this way you teach yourself that passive aggresiveness is based only on fear inductively besides just knowing it deductively.
The fact that everyones emotions work on a philosophy different then the philosophy that you believe in should be a good sign that it is not a good one to base any system on. In the case I just mentioned it doesn't work because most people are inductively ignorant of how the human mind works. But there are plenty of cases where a "fresh out of high school" philosophy of right and wrong is just flat out incorrect. Do you give money to any homeless person on the street? Of course not for all you know he could just go get high with it and make his life worse. And if you and others don't give him money he might realize he has to get out of the situation hes in and clean himself up. And if you use that money yourself you maybe could buy yourself and your wife a nice dinner at a resturaunt and have a good time, and you can be much more sure of that then the happiness your money might bring the homeless person.
Another thing that doesn't make sense about your viewpoint. If everyone uses an exploit, then it is not unfair advantage for any one person to use it. And you probably wouldn't call it an exploit anymore either. There is only one party that has an interest in controlling the use of so-called exploits and thats the developer. Yes KK is in the game, just not the actual mmorpg. Theyre game is to continually get your money for as long as possible, and this is the only game in which the concept of exploits is relevant.
The players do not care about exploits, they only care that the game is fun to play. If it ceases to be fun because exploits allowed them to get ahead to fast they just go play a different game. If someone uses a new tactic on them that they hadn't thought of then they just adapt to it and possibly learn how to do it themselves. This goes for even say duping items. In the case of the basket ball game, if the height of the net is variable in the game then the team with the lower net will simply raise theirs as well. Its only unfair if the rules DICTATE that one side have a higher net then the other team. So the answer is yes its fair because they thought of it first.
If you want to look at the argument against "authority figures" in terms of online definitions then fine... #1 in your list of definitions says that authority is the power to exact obedience. However it is physically impossible to exact obedience without a persons consent. Therefore there is no such thing as an authority figure. You however seem to just be claiming that they have the abillity to enforce your contract. Well fine if you want to look at it that way then I have equal authority over the supposed "authority figures" - I can simply not pay them, or quit my job, or drop a class.
And this is in fact what I am referring to when I say that what KK is doing is bad even though their contract dictates that thats the terms of their deal and thats what you agree to before playing the game. It costs little to have an intelligent system that does not encourage corruption. It costs nothing to treat customers respectfully. It probably SAVES money to adopt a policy of only dealing with exploits by fixing them, and only makes the game more fun for the players. Therefore for any company in KK's position, another company can run a game and make the same or more money doing all the things I have cited. And this is what I am trying to inform other players of, so they can make educated decisions about the competiveness of Neocron.
No company will ever stop all exploiters, because only they know naturally know what "exploiting" is. If banning players does not even stop them from doing it, and the only thing that fixes it is fixing the game, then whats the point at running around banning random players rather than just depending on fixing the problems?
I never agree to disagree because there is only one right answer to every question, and even when you can't find it there is a best answer. Exploiting has nothing to do fairness to other players. And no customers are not against exploiting... It takes a good deal of brainwashing to even get them to know what an exploit is. I respect your debating ability however.
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Yes i know this is true, however recently i haven't heard of or witnessed enough situations which have lead me to believe this goes on. While yes in the past gms have abused their power I don't see it as a problem anymore, atm cheating or breaking of the rules tends to come from players exploiting, though again the exploits around today are a fraction of those in the past. Possibly why its less of a problem atm is with the low pop there is no need for a large number of gms so its easier for kk to control and vet the few they have.
If i've gave the impression i don't think corruption should be investigated then that wasn't my intention, quite the opposite, my view is that as long as KK monitors the situation and keeps it under control I have no criticisms. From what I am aware of, since the corruption issues arose KK clamped down on GMs and so the chance of it happening has decreased.
I've not been badgered nor heard anyone accuse them of it before, unless you are referring to bans for exploiting? If thats the case then there is still disagreement on which side is in the wrong
As for not accusing GMs because they are volunteers, again I've never heard that, at least not phrased that way, what has been said is that due to GMs being volunteers and the recruiting process being over the net, its very difficult to screen candidates fully and so some rotten eggs will slip through the cracks and have to be dealt with when their true nature becomes apparent.
There has always been rules, however there has had to be some flexibility to counter exploiting; it is not the gms that make the rules, they just enforce them, if a gm has tried to tell you otherwise I guess he's just one of the "bad eggs".
As for the situation that is out of order, yet i would presume that was during the time when KK had too much faith in the goodwill of gms, now as it would take more than one gm (need a senior as well afaik) you would be able to appeal and report the gm for anything he said that was unsatisfactory. he would also need proof to give to the other GMs who would prob monitor you playing (invisibility) to confirm any suspicions of exploits etc.
As much as I'd like to say thats not true I do know that police do abuse their powers at times, thankfully for the most part those who are given unfair treatment tend to be criminals who are persecuted without enough evidence, this is still no excuse. There are some cases where completely innocent citizens get abused, generally there are racial or other discriminatory motives, however these cases are few and far between, and almost always get highlighted in the media for the injustice caused.
Most jurisprudence doctrines would disagree; almost all state right and wrong derive from consensus (in some form or another) and the distortion of what is viewed as human nature.
And even not taking account of legal philosophy, laws are created by Parliament, which is a representation of the people in a democratic society (replace Parliament with Legislator in your country of origin), they represent the view of those who elect them in creating and altering laws.
Good theory, bad analogy. Only a minority of people in the western world would believe not being able to own slaves is unfair. Many may believe however that getting a parking ticket for parking on double yellow lines is unfair, this though isn't so much a law of right and wrong, but more of practicality and positive duties for the smooth running of society.
Yes but that experience is influenced by the views of the majority of society, they can't act against public views of morality (in most circumstances) and furthermore as said above in a democratic society the legislator is elected by the people, the people elect those with common values and experiences and so the laws are created by the views of society in a more direct way. Do you think a legislator could change the law to allow murder and stay in power thus being able to enforce it? No, when the law was in its first stages of being drafted there would be an uproar and most likely a vote of no-confidence in the cabinet.
Just yesterday, there community forum had a large post with players protesting about an exploit, kk took action about it (though i don't agree with their method). This not only shows kk are listening to the community but that players aren't happy that this exploiting is happening.
I'd add within the rules of the game, then agree.
If you mean based on morals you have to make the judgement of their life or yours or one life over many then yes i can see situations where that would occur, an obese man in a cave entrance isn't one however maybe i just lack imagination.
I didn't want to bring rehabilitation into the equation as there is obviously flaws in it, in that the only way to tell if its worked or not for sure is to wait for a crime to be committed. I also find myself dubious of rehabilitation based on the severity and circumstances of the crime. Also to point out under most legal systems life rarely means life. By not letting the murderer see light of day protects society from the danger the criminal imposes, and allows the criminal to live out their life, while yes not freely that is the punishment for committing a wrong, I don't see it as selfish as it is thinking about the safety of society at large, without completely disregarding the rights of the criminal. Yes its a fine balance but one that can work.
That depends what you are talking about, and where it is negative, if it is based in fact or rumour.
There are many different philosophies, each equally right to different individuals, however my criticism was that the rules do exist even if you don't agree or like them, while you are welcome to your own opinions and philosophies you can't ignore rules or laws just because you disagree with them.
If everyone believed in a system of philosophy different from my own then i would have to reconsider mine as being right, however when it comes to philosophy there is often little facts, its is mainly opinion and so there are always conflicting views, disagreement doesn't make one philosophy right or wrong, I just accept the rules enforced by law and those in authority over me.
I agree but I put that down to bad education or not enough philosophies being taught to allow students to create their own opinions.
Everyone doesn't exploit though, and by saying everyone should can ruin the game and the developers vision of it, take the current rhino rep exploit, rather than capping chars by fighting mobs should we just all sit our chars in front of a rhino repping it and go afk for 24 hours till we cap? Kind of defeats the purpose of the game in my and most of the communities opinions. More importantly in KKs opinion, as i've said before, being their game it is they who have the right to alter it to fit their vision. Many people believe in fair play, in the same way that over powered hybrids were imbalanced and people condemned them, people condemn exploits which hurt the balance of the game, it makes it less fun. Everyone could have just rolled a hybrid and had a equally over powered character but that wouldn't have been fun and would have restricted game development. In a real life circumstance, two teams might be ahhpy playing a game of football with no rules, not everybody would however as without rules the competition becomes hollow, rules keep the game going smoothly and allow it to run in a orderly manner.
True and in my experience most players feel exploits ruin a game and make it less fun.
Or they exploited to get where they are missing out most of the game and so the fun was removed so they move on to another game. Either way they leave, if they don't find the game fun in playing through it properly then it's obviously not for them.
Theres a difference between "tactic" and "exploit", exploits are abusing game mechanics, tactics are using valid game mechanics to your advantage. Who decides whats valid? The people who develop the game.
Whats the point in working for items in a game when you can use features that aren't meant to be in it to get them with little or no effort? Duping ruins mmo's is wrecks economies makes the whole loot from hunting side of the game irrelevant. MMO's aren't just about pvp or the end game, levelling and collecting items are a part of them, they are the method designers have decided in the mmo world you will get items, to act against the game design makes playing it irrelevant.
And what if they can't? Certain exploits can be class specific, or what if they don't want to, it may ruin the fun for them. Yes you can say that its their choice, but then if the majority are the ones not having fun then the devs have to do something. Not everybody wants to exploit, just as in single player games most people don't see the point in cheats when playing through a game, especially for the first time.
But what if the net manufacturer didn't intend for the net to have its height varied by the players? And what if by putting both nets at 20m makes the game boring as it's almost impossible for a side to score. A ppu v ppu fight would be pointless and impossible for either to win, certain exploits overpower classes to the extent if everyone did it the game would become stale. Take standing in boxes to avoid being hit, if everyone done it no one could hit anyone.
I could easily use the Collins or Oxford English dictionary for a definition but then it wouldn't be a common source all sides have access to.
You have the right to quit your job etc, you don't have the power to tell your boss what to do however, there is a difference between rights and authority.
Obedience is gained through the nature of the power the authority derives from, your boss has authority over you and has the power to tell you want to do as you have an interest in keeping your job, mainly for income and career purposes, due to that interest you have to do what he says or he can fire you, he doesn't have to do what you tell him as he can simply hire another employee, you have rights but they don't give you power over others, just mainly over yourself and your actions.
I agree and with the exception of corruption in the past that they have dealt with, I have never heard of them being rude to customers.
Thats what they do, there has to be a period though between when the exploit is discovered and when they can fix it that they have to police to stop the exploit being used.
Thats your opinion, while I might not agree with it, I'm not saying its invalid, opinions aren't based on facts, there is no right and wrong, just perception of the given situation. While some people might agree with you, that doesn't make those who don't wrong.
To stop people using them while they fix them, the players who are banned know they will get banned if caught, they are the ones risking it, kk has to make an example of them as a preventative measure, otherwise whenever an exploit is found there will be nothing stopping people using it until it is fixed.
Right and wrong when it comes to opinions is simply a matter of perspective. Very few of the arguments are fact, at least not the ones that aren't getting off topic, so there is no right, wrong or best answer, every person will see the situation differently.
Customers are very aware of what exploits are, where do you think the first reports arise from? Also read the forums and you will see a vast array of people against them...(see above, the rhino exploit)
I too respect yours, while I don't agree with you I do understand your opinion and argument and can see why others may agree with you.
While I agree in a certain sense that no person can be wrong persay, because they reason using what they have seen so far, I do believe that some philosophies model the real world while others do not.
The reason there are so many different philosophies is because people reason inductively using metaphors. If there is a connection between 2 different ideas a metaphor implies that the second idea has the same qualities as the first. We reason inductively (and therefore our subconsious tells us they are true) that if there is a somewhat strong connection between the two ideas then the metaphor is useful, but only because we rarely scrutinize the reasoning from different directions. The result is an infinite amount of philosophies on complicated matters that "sound" like they are correct. . None of these are likely to model the real world however, and this is the least useful type of inductive reasoning. If you limit yourself to deductive reasoning, then you can see how there is only one answer to every question.
Im not saying that my philosophy is a consious consensus, im saying its the common sense philosophy everyone demonstrates in their every day actions, because they know its the only one that works in the real world. (like in the beggar exapmle)
No people don't want to own slaves anymore, but back in the day it was actually common consensus of southern americans that african americans were not capabable of taking care of themselves in civilized society. Representitives cannot do what the people percieve to be wrong, but they DO do what people possibly didn't previously agree with. If they are right then they are able to convince the people. And in the present day thanks to metaphors people can be convinced even of things that are wrong at least to the point where they wont riot.
A few people posting on the forums are not really a consensus of players against exploits. Alot of people I have seen who make a huge deal about "exploiters" are mmorpg vets who were intimitaded by GM's or devs into not using any strategy not known to be approved and get mad that other players do not succumb to such intimidation.
Any exploit that one player can do, any player can do. If all players use exploits then it is not unfair to any one player. You hit the nail right on the head when you said "what if the manufacturer didn't intend it" The only problem is how can we possibly know what a developer intended, even if we are to accept that we should play the game with the developers interests at heart and not our own? Like I said in an earlier post there are often times where all logic points to something being fair and then the developer considers it an exploit. Even when there are things that people aren't banned for, Gm's still toss around the label "exploit" to intimidate people. For instance back when LOM's had no penalties I had one high level spy that I used to make money. I bought barter, const, and research loms and then bought enough parts to build a bunch of troop carriers or something, then lomed to do each thing and sold the results, making a large profit. There is no bug involved in this process. It was fully intended for LOMs to do what they did. It was fully intended at the time that they have no penalties. By no criteria could this be considered an exploit. Yet it was later deemed to be so, just because the developers had not though far enough ahead to realize this could be done and they didn't want people to be able to do that. It would have been rediculous had I been banned for this.
Item or money duping is about the only obvious "exploit" that I can think of. In the case of the Rhino, or one damaging himself in order to level, it is in fact obvious that they should be allowed. If you level con by being shot, it only makes sense that a person would want to be shot as much as possible until his con is capped. This so called exploit is just trying to limit how much of a powergamer someone can be. And people (martial artists) actually have themselves beaten in real life in order to toughen their skin in muscles. In the case of the rhino repair, the developers were the ones who chose to allow people to level through repairing vehicles. They could have easily come up with any leveling system, but they did not. So out of frustration of their own inabillity to think, they ban paying customers. Thats just brilliant...
The people that do cry "sploiter" do not do it when the developers would actually consider whats being done an exploit. They do it any time someone comes up with a strategy they didn't think of. The developers call anything an exploit which allows peopel to excel faster in the game then they intended. The developers are taking advantage of such people's immature responses to competition to enforce their own interests on the players.
Until you are the subject of unfair treatment it is easy to look at every player that gets in trouble after the fact and tell yourself "Yeah its ok they banned him that seems like an exploit" One day you might be getting in trouble for something you thought was perfectly fair, and then you will realize there is no way to tell when the devs are going to consider something an exploit, and this fact alone will ruin the game because it will have you second guessing all your actions.
Its not true that you cannot tell your boss what to do. If your boss does not want to lose you, then you can as long as what you ask is within reason (for example asking for a raise) If noone takes a teachers class then he will lose his job, if noone buys a companies product then they will go bankrupt. Any so called authority one party has over another is due only to that persons desire to maintain the deal with the other. In a competitive free market, paying customers have many choices and therefore the developers are the party that wants to maintain the contract the most. Any authority is had by the customers. However Neocron TEMPORARILY exists in a non competive market (based on the particular game style) and therefore can succeed somewhat with poor and selfish idealoligies. But the second competitive games start popping up they will either have to change their tone REAL quick or dry up. Especially since handling things the right way costs nothing extra. And looking at the incoming games, darkfall, face of mankind and possibly others look to be poised to take a chunk out of neocron.
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Krim is it me or is the main thrust of you post
cheating is ok if everyone can do it
I'll agree in principle that some 'features' do end up being called exploits if a player finds a creative or unintended way to do something, on the other hand there are things that any fool can see are definately not intended and should not be possible (dupes being the most obvious one) - just because there is a grey area at one end of the 'exploit' spectrum doesnt means that anything is ok until you are told it isnt
Rumour is you got banned recently (I have no idea if this is true of not) but if so your post comes across miffed that you got caught - if you did get banned I dont know the circumstances around it so I wont directly comment but going on to say that KK need to cut the players more slack because 'they'll be in trouble soon because of it' (or words to that effect) is a waste of time, a game that has the reputation of a cheaters playground (see another post on this forum) is not likely to attract the 'right' kind of player, only the wrong kind - I'm guessing that KK would rather cheese of players in the manner you describe above than cultivating a reputation of exploiter tolorance and driving away legitimate players and only attacting those that want to cheat/exploit
I didn't get banned for anything, I quit the game ages ago because I got sick of dealing with KK's crap. Im just arguing mostly for the sake of spreading ideas. KK is like the epitomy of a bad way to do buisness, like North Korea vs South Korea or something.
Its amazing how people who actually believe that exploiting has any effect on the player believe that many share their view. If your talking about duping items or money, if everyone does it its not unfair to anyone. Its not the players fault for doing it, theyre goal is to get ahead in the virtual world, and they pay the company to make an arena to allow us to do this. If a game is a haven for exploiters its because that games designers are incompetent. They have a bad product. It certainly is not their place to bitch and whine at customers for their own stupidity.
Forget all these ideas that have been pumped into your head for a minute and start from scratch. Before this mentality, finding bugs in video games and exploiting them was just another way to demonstrate skill. Heck someone could have made an mmorpg just based on finding purposely placed glitches in the game to excel in the game. Id certainly play it.
If everyone in a game is using a "so-called" exploit then its not an unfair advantage for anyone person to use it and its not an exploit. If the game is too easily beaten because it was not designed well then players can simply go play a better game (when there is competition). The only party that truly has an interest in stopping so called "exploits" is the company because they want the game to last as long as possible and get your money. What has happened is people have been brainwashed into thinking that the companies interest is their own, when it is not.
If I ran a company I would make a clause in the contract that stated the server could go down for quick fixes to game damaging exploits before I would threaten my customers. Soon someone will figure out that this is a much better way of doing buisness, and this whole "exploit" idealogy will be ancient history. But heck in a perfect market even this would cause you to lose points - there might be someone else with more vigilant designers whose game always stayed up.
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I'd say its too cynical and pessimistic and that believing everyone follows it, subconsciously or not is a bit deluded, it may be your beliefs and they are valid but you can't presume what philosophies others follow.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with slavery, in the past if was thought to be ok and so was legal, over time it was decided it wasn't so its not. As peoples opinions changed so did the law.
Its not a few people posting on the forums, its a few hundred and when the active population of the English speaking community in the game is most likely less than a thousand, i'd say thats a large proportion, you may get the impression people don't mind it but then you may have associated with those doing it.
They tell us, its them making the rules about exploits.
Because its not meant to be in the game, they know better than you what is (it's their game!) and it is up to them.
It was never said this was an exploit and nobody was banned for this, KK simply added the penalties. At the start of retail they put loms in in that form to allow people who didn't understand the skill system to fix mistakes, it was the players who said people were abusing it in the way you mentioned, kk simply did something about it.
First off do you even know what this exploit was? Rhinos could be emote repaired even when at full health, and were giving disproportionate exp, thus people would stock up on remote repair nanites and tape their mouse down and go afk, fully capping a spy in about 24 hours. This really defeats the purpose of the game and the player base complained about how unfair it was, yes they could have done it but as it is obviously cheating they would prefer it was removed so the game can be played as it was intended. KK to fix it until they can patch in another method disabled remote repair tools (this i disagree with, imo they should have just removed exp gain from repair). Nobody was banned for it, they found another method quickly and implemented it.
You are only supposed to level and gain items in a specific way, hence the rules to prevent people cheating to gain these things by other means. In chess you can just pick up a pawn move it over the whole board and take the king, it would be stupid if you could and remove the purpose of the game. Rather you have to move at set intervals and play through the game, get the oppositions king into check mate and then you have won. In a mmo there is also a set way you must play the game to attain the objectives, there may be no fixed "win" at the end, but thats just the nature of these games.
its not a question of you know if something is fair, its a question of did you have any doubt in your mind that the devs would view it otherwise, if no player has ever said "thats exploiting" or you have not been informed by any other means you are innocent and you wont get in trouble, just informed and warned. However if you have heard on some form that it might be exploiting its up to you to confirm this and stop doing it.
This isn't a power as such, he can still easily refuse your application and let you quit, the power is in his hands, yes you can say you have the power to quit and not do what he says but as is said before thats just a right you have, you have no way of forcing him to comply to your wishes, you aren't as important to him as your job is to you, if you are then you are most likely in a more freelance position. Also in the everyday work enviroment you can't tell him to do task a but he can tell you what to do, due to the employee worker relationship, this is his power.
Very few lecturers teach just one class, in a school system the school assigns you to set classes, in a University circumstance, the compulsory curriculum is split between the lecturers and the advanced classes , if no one subscribes, does not reflect directly on the lecturer until no one has taken it for a while, they get to go back to their research and carry on teaching their classes which are compulsory.
Yes and? If the company has any contracts underway however, those party to them must fulfil their end of the contract, even if the company goes bankrupt the trustee in bankruptcy will fulfil any contracts that can still be fulfilled.
Some authority is imposed or inferred by law and there is no way you can get out of it, the authority of the police for example, or the government.
The company wants to maintain the majority of its customers not each one individually, especially when they break the rules set out in the contract.
It is just your view they are poor and selfish based on your opinions on exploiting, I don't think its selfish for them to run their product the way they see fit and best for their customers, exploiters are a minority of customers and so they are thinking about the majority base, yes they decide what an exploit is but most customers can guess what is and isn't too based on the objectives within the game.
Will it NC's population be hurt by future games? Yes most definitely (not that it can get much worse), but not for the reasons you say, I very much doubt any of these games will turn a blind eye to cheating and if they do they will fail.
Look at complaints on all forums, which are a representation of the games community, also note how many people say they quit NC because of the level of exploiting in the past.
But it defeats the purpose of the game then it makes the game meaning irrelevant, if i want to watch numbers fly up i'll use a calculator, in a mmo your meant to earn cash and items by specific in-game methods only.
They know its against the rules, so yes it is.
They must stop their mistakes being taken advantage of and spoiling the game while they work out a fix.
But what if its only too easy because of flaws in the game the designer did not intend. The designers fix the flaws so the game keeps with their intention, and people don't have to go to other games. It also makes the game more interesting for those playing, if your annoyed you can't get ahead using illegitimate means, why not work on getting ahead legitimately? Game not fun for you when you can't cheat?
And what if the fix was going to take a few days to develop, why would people subscribe for a service they can't use?
I agree, while when it comes to certain exploits there may be some vagueness this doesn't mean you can paint them all with the same brush.