I was sold on the concept that there should be death penalties when I played EQ. However, except for raiding, 9 out of 10 deaths were due to lag or disconnects. So player skill really only had an effect on 10% of deaths. I have played games with little or no death penalty. Risky encounters are fun. Players do not usually react badly if someone makes a mistake and things go wrong. I am currently exploring Flyff. I had 3 deaths yesterday , all of which were due to disconnects. The 5% xp penalty on death is significant at higher levels. I could buy xp death penalty insurance from the cash shop with real life money. 2 of the disconnects were server disconnects. 1 disconnect was definitely not caused by the game server. For PvP, surely you would prefer to have the opponent return to the field quickly, rather than wait 3 hours while they replace lost gear and make the long trip back? I no longer favor harsh death penalties. Death penalties usually punish the wrong person; they punish the player for poor internet or server performance.
I don't understand why my game should be nerfed because you have a sucky internet connetion. I've died in eq plenty of times and really it isn't the end of the world just suck it up and get your corpse or ask someone for help. It really isn't that difficult.
Players react badly and the team dies. Thats part of the game it isn't about just you it's about the group/raid... A sucky group really isn't much fun but a great group can be poetry in motion. In EQ great players were very noticable and bad players made the list. Talk about a game where skill mattered, if you screwed up you didn't just die your group did and they wouldn't forget you soon if you were playing while watchng TV and not paying attention.
Ultimately though death is just part of the game. Rather then whine about it just man up and deal with it....
I was sold on the concept that there should be death penalties when I played EQ. However, except for raiding, 9 out of 10 deaths were due to lag or disconnects. So player skill really only had an effect on 10% of deaths. I have played games with little or no death penalty. Risky encounters are fun. Players do not usually react badly if someone makes a mistake and things go wrong. I am currently exploring Flyff. I had 3 deaths yesterday , all of which were due to disconnects. The 5% xp penalty on death is significant at higher levels. I could buy xp death penalty insurance from the cash shop with real life money. 2 of the disconnects were server disconnects. 1 disconnect was definitely not caused by the game server. For PvP, surely you would prefer to have the opponent return to the field quickly, rather than wait 3 hours while they replace lost gear and make the long trip back? I no longer favor harsh death penalties. Death penalties usually punish the wrong person; they punish the player for poor internet or server performance.
Rather then whine about it just man up and deal with it....
Thats the major problem though, they're all little boys these days that don't know how to be a man yet, so they whine and hope mommy will cuddle them to sleep! ...and have never played true D&D.
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Played EQ from day 1 and yeah, I died because I dropped and all that. Regardless of the game, that is an inherent threat just from the fact that the game is online.
I have been in groups and some donkey got us killed...whatever. Losing a level because of game death sucks...but that is what makes you good at whatever class you play.
I am also a permadeath fan, but I really think it will be a LONG time til it is implemented in the right way.
As far as a harsh DP?
Yes please.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Played EQ from day 1 and yeah, I died because I dropped and all that. Regardless of the game, that is an inherent threat just from the fact that the game is online.
I have been in groups and some donkey got us killed...whatever. Losing a level because of game death sucks...but that is what makes you good at whatever class you play.
I am also a permadeath fan, but I really think it will be a LONG time til it is implemented in the right way.
As far as a harsh DP?
Yes please.
Nices, I should hire you someday to help build the MMO I'm working on! Mine will have a very harsh DP, mass XP and lvls lost, and the possibility of a form of perma-death I'm working on designing!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
I don't understand why my game should be nerfed because you have a sucky internet connetion. I've died in eq plenty of times and really it isn't the end of the world just suck it up and get your corpse or ask someone for help. It really isn't that difficult. Players react badly and the team dies. Thats part of the game it isn't about just you it's about the group/raid... A sucky group really isn't much fun but a great group can be poetry in motion. In EQ great players were very noticable and bad players made the list. Talk about a game where skill mattered, if you screwed up you didn't just die your group did and they wouldn't forget you soon if you were playing while watchng TV and not paying attention. Ultimately though death is just part of the game. Rather then whine about it just man up and deal with it....
I don't have a bad internet connection. Why be penalised because of the poor service from the game provider?
The problem may lie with the game server or the game provider's isp. The game company choses the location of their servers and their isp, so this aspect is also within their control.
I never found the dp in EQ to be harsh. I try not to die too often, no matter the game or the DP involved. I maybe lost a level 2-3 times, but quickly got it back.
I certainly wouldn't want item looting, because that could easily be subject to abuse from higher levels.
Time seems the best death penalty to me. The time it takes for a corpse run, or the time it takes for resurrection illness to dissipate, so you can jump back into the fray. Daoc was like that. The penalty wasn't harsh, but dying certainly wasn't meaningless to me.
For pvp, maybe an illness after death that takes time to go away, and your stats go up as it wears down, and stacks too, so if you run into battle weakened still and die stupidly, the penalty just keeps stacking. So the real morons who say had a 5min sickness could end up with 30 or 40min of crappy stats because they just keep dying over and over. And make sure the sickness doesn't wear off offline.
I would like to see something like that. Incapacitate the stupid. The dumber you are, the longer you can't play on even playing field.
Fully lootable corpses is the way it should be. It makes the game NOT item dependant which is a great thing. It's just sily to have items with +X ability bonuses instead of having that bonuses as part of the character advancement customization. And cause of that forbid corpse looting, because it would be too harsh. AoC obviously won't be any different.
I love the mentality that those against a harsh DP are somehow "not manly". This I find amusing as hell. It's more like we have X amount of time to dedicate to a "Game" a GAME we pay for to enjoy.
Now you toss in your epeen induced harsh DP and for many of us, that time and money becomes not a source of "wow look, despite the obstacles I have arrived!" it becomes a matter of high annoyance at losing that XP, or lost gear to a looter... whatever it is...
It annoys us. We want challenges that are more original then "Die and suffer b****!" That system inherently favors the power gamers that have far more time to play, generally high school an college students that still think they are tough because they can out level most people in a video game...
Doesn't really matter, the days of a real harsh DP are dead and gone, companies cater to the group most likely to bring them a profit, and the epeen nerds of the internet are in no way a profitable demographic to pursue. Besides, in the light of it, AoC is an MMO being made for the 360, released on PC first to mitigate the risk (even FFXI went PC first ). thus they are angling for the casual gamers thus the DP will be light by many on this threads standards.
Which might cost FC a few players, but in the end will net them a larger player base.
You want a harsh DP, go play D&D with some friends.
Dying and dropping stuff which I can then run to the nearest town and rebuy isnt harsh,its just a set back. Corpse runs arent harsh,again its a setback-albeit a very annoying one. Nothing harsh or tough about either.
Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying. No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience. I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#"; deaths.
I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either. I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server. If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.
Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty. Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.
Then go back to WoW if you want the spoon-fed gravy train... I for one am waiting on a challenge, something that will actually make me feel good when accomplishing a lvl,quest, skill ect..
I always felt like harsh DPs weeded out the immature players such as the kids who just try to grief play. This is just speculation and I have no reason to believe that this actually happens, it is just my general assumption. Furthermore, I always felt like orginal UO had a little bit more of a realistic feel to it as a vast, dangerous world due to the fact that dying was a very real liklihood if one would wander and explore by themselves in an unfamilar territory. I guess I just liked that feeling of fear associated with the exploration.
I love how people who rant about realism and about challenges and about how much more rewarding a game with so-called "harsh" DP's go on and on about how pathetic those of us are, who have a different point of view than their own. Like it elevates them to some kind of "better" gamer status. Ridiculous really.
That being said, anything proposed in this thread as harsh, is, in fact, -NOT- harsh, nor is it realistic. It's merely -ANNOYING-. Losing XP? Just causes you to kill x more mobs. Losing your equipment? Just causes you to run and get new stuff. Stat Loss? Also just a matter of more invested time. There's nothing -HARSH- about that, it's just plain added time-sinks. Why? Because no matter how good you are, you will never continually survive in a MMO. Eventually, your char WILL die and you will invest more time to fix the DP. No matter if it's because of lag, a player who's simply better than you, or being ganked.
The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
This post is by no means intended to flame anyone. I just find it funny how some people think they are so much better than the rest.
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
I might be in the minority here, but I don't consider anything I have done playing a video game to be an accomplishment.
You have only played "games" to where MMORPGs use to be "worlds". See that is the difference in how today's gamers feel about mmorpgs and the ones in the past felt about them. EQ was a living breathing world and you felt like you was in it. World of Warcraft is a fun little video game and that is all.
In a world it takes longer to adventure to the in, you had a lot more player interaction, there was more mystery, you were not led around by linear quest, and death was something you didn't want to happen. I liked WoW initially for a little while it was a fun "game". The community was horrible, there was no common bond between players like in EQ. EQ formed these bonds by making you rely on each other to get things completed.
It is ashame a lot missed out on what EQ was. Now EQ is garbage, don't even try it. It would not be worth it. EQ has changed too much. MMORPGs are going the way of the console games. Shallow instant gratification garbage that is too easy.
I love how people who rant about realism and about challenges and about how much more rewarding a game with so-called "harsh" DP's go on and on about how pathetic those of us are, who have a different point of view than their own. Like it elevates them to some kind of "better" gamer status. Ridiculous really.
That being said, anything proposed in this thread as harsh, is, in fact, -NOT- harsh, nor is it realistic. It's merely -ANNOYING-. Losing XP? Just causes you to kill x more mobs. Losing your equipment? Just causes you to run and get new stuff. Stat Loss? Also just a matter of more invested time. There's nothing -HARSH- about that, it's just plain added time-sinks. Why? Because no matter how good you are, you will never continually survive in a MMO. Eventually, your char WILL die and you will invest more time to fix the DP. No matter if it's because of lag, a player who's simply better than you, or being ganked.
The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
This post is by no means intended to flame anyone. I just find it funny how some people think they are so much better than the rest.
So the original poster did not insult other players for enjoying a different style of play? I think he did and he got exactly what he was looking for. He came to upset others. I hate to say it, but a lot of people with his mindset that games should be cake walks, instant gratification garbage tend to be very verbally childish.
So the original poster did not insult other players for enjoying a different style of play? I think he did and he got exactly what he was looking for. He came to upset others. I hate to say it, but a lot of people with his mindset that games should be cake walks, instant gratification garbage tend to be very verbally childish.
Compare this:
Never, ever ever have I understood this.
Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying. No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience. I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#"; deaths.
I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either. I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server. If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.
Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty. Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.
To this:
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
The OP as compared to one of the more recent advocates of Harsh DP's. Notice something? Who is the insulting one?
Regardless of that, I am well aware that both sides tend to insult each other. I was not insulting anyone, I was merely pointing out why I believe that "Harsh" DP's as propagated in this thread are merely an illusion. I tried to explain why I think that way, that's all.
So the original poster did not insult other players for enjoying a different style of play? I think he did and he got exactly what he was looking for. He came to upset others. I hate to say it, but a lot of people with his mindset that games should be cake walks, instant gratification garbage tend to be very verbally childish.
Compare this:
Never, ever ever have I understood this.
Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying. No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience. I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#"; deaths.
I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either. I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server. If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.
Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty. Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.
To this:
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
The OP as compared to one of the more recent advocates of Harsh DP's. Notice something? Who is the insulting one?
Regardless of that, I am well aware that both sides tend to insult each other. I was not insulting anyone, I was merely pointing out why I believe that "Harsh" DP's as propagated in this thread are merely an illusion. I tried to explain why I think that way, that's all.
i read your other posts and how u explained a illusion of what is or is not harsh...the fact is how many games out have nothing upon death by npc or even pvp if it has any pvp at all....
i can name one game and thats lineage 2...but even lineage 2 has cut its dp down quite alot over the past few expansions cause of all the sissys in it crying....go play c1 of lineage 2 and then come back if u havent hung yourself by your mouse cord and then cry about harsh dp and such but dont complain about a game being pvp b4 you played it just read what the games about and stfu and if its not what you like...GO PLAY SOMTHING ELSE
i read your other posts and how u explained a illusion of what is or is not harsh...the fact is how many games out have nothing upon death by npc or even pvp if it has any pvp at all.... i can name one game and thats lineage 2...but even lineage 2 has cut its dp down quite alot over the past few expansions cause of all the sissys in it crying....go play c1 of lineage 2 and then come back if u havent hung yourself by your mouse cord and then cry about harsh dp and such but dont complain about a game being pvp b4 you played it just read what the games about and stfu and if its not what you like...GO PLAY SOMTHING ELSE
Thank you for proving my point. It's wonderful to be proven right by the people who rant and rave against myself.
I could go on a litany of games I have played that have your beloved "harsh" DP's, but honestly, I do not see why. You mate, are a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Thinking yourself better than others because you think you play a more "challenging" game, a game with more harsh DP's. At least some of the others in this thread have the eloquence necessary to convey their point properly.
Thank you for proving my point. It's wonderful to be proven right by the people who rant and rave against myself.
I could go on a litany of games I have played that have your beloved "harsh" DP's, but honestly, I do not see why. You mate, are a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Thinking yourself better than others because you think you play a more "challenging" game, a game with more harsh DP's. At least some of the others in this thread have the eloquence necessary to convey their point properly.
I rest my case.
{ Mod Edit }
1) I apologize for typing the way I was brought up to do, and I also apologize for knowing and then using words which you apparently think can only be found in a dictionary.
2) Are you getting off insulting me (see red marked passages)? Whatever did I do to you, besides telling you, in much less insulting words, that I think your "harshness" is, in fact, not harsh, but only another way to get people to spend more time in a game.
3) This discussion was not about PVP per se, but about death penalties, which can arise from PvP OR PvE. I don't know where in my posts you read that I am anti-PvP.
4) If you look closer, you will find a series of games that have loss at death etc. etc. How about EVE Online? Where you lose your ship and your equipment can be looted by the other players? How about original DAoC, where you lost XP due to death? Or even Final Fantasy XI where you could even lose levels if you died too often? And as you yourself stated, Lineage 2? I played them all, and I frankly find it intriguing why you would think I have never played such games before. Just because I do not share your point of view does not mean I didn't check out both sides of the fence, does it?
Finally, I would ask you to stop insulting me with senseless accusations and really petty jibes. Calling me an "ass hat" and "douche bag" won't get your point across any better. And by calling everyone who does not share your view at PvP/DP's sissy's, crybabies and whatnot, you -DO- more or less tell people that -you- think you are better than them.
Some people look at Everest and say "What a challenge!" "I will preserver even in the face of death to view the world from the summit!"
While others, look at Everest and and say "They need an escalator here, and a Denny's over there." "You know just for comfort maybe a couple of bathrooms too!" "After all, that stuff wont change the view one bit!"
It doesn't change the view, but it changes the feeling. From one of climbing Everest, to one of visiting Disneyland.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
Makes it more a challenge, you're putting something staking something... gambling with it.... not just doing whatever stupid stuff you wanna do (Like running into a WTFBBQOMG dragon) and knowing you dont lose anything.
Challenge! Thats the keyword bro.
___________________ Give me a good skill based sandbox game, and i'll give you a cookie!
kinda remind me of the kid in highschool who would punch his locker cause a bully picked on him instead of standing up for himself...
or rant on forums with an online tough guy persona,eh?
here it is plain and simple...if u do not like pvp and death penaltys in a game DO NOT PLAY...dont ruin it for others who agree and like the game just gtfo and let the pvpers enjoy themselves or come and play with us and be our tools
The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
dont bother trying to eplain anything to singsofdeath he thinks one way and thats his way and if u dont agree then your insignificant in his holier then thou rants and raves...a pvp game is for pvpers end of discussion u have you have 3 options leave, play, or cry untill you get your way....you can obviously see what option he falls under
ps if u argue with him he just reports you to mods
Comments
I don't understand why my game should be nerfed because you have a sucky internet connetion. I've died in eq plenty of times and really it isn't the end of the world just suck it up and get your corpse or ask someone for help. It really isn't that difficult.
Players react badly and the team dies. Thats part of the game it isn't about just you it's about the group/raid... A sucky group really isn't much fun but a great group can be poetry in motion. In EQ great players were very noticable and bad players made the list. Talk about a game where skill mattered, if you screwed up you didn't just die your group did and they wouldn't forget you soon if you were playing while watchng TV and not paying attention.
Ultimately though death is just part of the game. Rather then whine about it just man up and deal with it....
---
Ethion
Rather then whine about it just man up and deal with it....
Thats the major problem though, they're all little boys these days that don't know how to be a man yet, so they whine and hope mommy will cuddle them to sleep! ...and have never played true D&D.
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Played EQ from day 1 and yeah, I died because I dropped and all that. Regardless of the game, that is an inherent threat just from the fact that the game is online.
I have been in groups and some donkey got us killed...whatever. Losing a level because of game death sucks...but that is what makes you good at whatever class you play.
I am also a permadeath fan, but I really think it will be a LONG time til it is implemented in the right way.
As far as a harsh DP?
Yes please.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Nices, I should hire you someday to help build the MMO I'm working on! Mine will have a very harsh DP, mass XP and lvls lost, and the possibility of a form of perma-death I'm working on designing!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
The problem may lie with the game server or the game provider's isp. The game company choses the location of their servers and their isp, so this aspect is also within their control.
I never found the dp in EQ to be harsh. I try not to die too often, no matter the game or the DP involved. I maybe lost a level 2-3 times, but quickly got it back.
I certainly wouldn't want item looting, because that could easily be subject to abuse from higher levels.
Time seems the best death penalty to me. The time it takes for a corpse run, or the time it takes for resurrection illness to dissipate, so you can jump back into the fray. Daoc was like that. The penalty wasn't harsh, but dying certainly wasn't meaningless to me.
For pvp, maybe an illness after death that takes time to go away, and your stats go up as it wears down, and stacks too, so if you run into battle weakened still and die stupidly, the penalty just keeps stacking. So the real morons who say had a 5min sickness could end up with 30 or 40min of crappy stats because they just keep dying over and over. And make sure the sickness doesn't wear off offline.
I would like to see something like that. Incapacitate the stupid. The dumber you are, the longer you can't play on even playing field.
Fully lootable corpses is the way it should be. It makes the game NOT item dependant which is a great thing. It's just sily to have items with +X ability bonuses instead of having that bonuses as part of the character advancement customization. And cause of that forbid corpse looting, because it would be too harsh. AoC obviously won't be any different.
REALITY CHECK
I love the mentality that those against a harsh DP are somehow "not manly". This I find amusing as hell. It's more like we have X amount of time to dedicate to a "Game" a GAME we pay for to enjoy.
Now you toss in your epeen induced harsh DP and for many of us, that time and money becomes not a source of "wow look, despite the obstacles I have arrived!" it becomes a matter of high annoyance at losing that XP, or lost gear to a looter... whatever it is...
It annoys us. We want challenges that are more original then "Die and suffer b****!" That system inherently favors the power gamers that have far more time to play, generally high school an college students that still think they are tough because they can out level most people in a video game...
Doesn't really matter, the days of a real harsh DP are dead and gone, companies cater to the group most likely to bring them a profit, and the epeen nerds of the internet are in no way a profitable demographic to pursue. Besides, in the light of it, AoC is an MMO being made for the 360, released on PC first to mitigate the risk (even FFXI went PC first ). thus they are angling for the casual gamers thus the DP will be light by many on this threads standards.
Which might cost FC a few players, but in the end will net them a larger player base.
You want a harsh DP, go play D&D with some friends.
Always change your signature.
Dying and dropping stuff which I can then run to the nearest town and rebuy isnt harsh,its just a set back. Corpse runs arent harsh,again its a setback-albeit a very annoying one. Nothing harsh or tough about either.
Then go back to WoW if you want the spoon-fed gravy train... I for one am waiting on a challenge, something that will actually make me feel good when accomplishing a lvl,quest, skill ect..
I always felt like harsh DPs weeded out the immature players such as the kids who just try to grief play. This is just speculation and I have no reason to believe that this actually happens, it is just my general assumption. Furthermore, I always felt like orginal UO had a little bit more of a realistic feel to it as a vast, dangerous world due to the fact that dying was a very real liklihood if one would wander and explore by themselves in an unfamilar territory. I guess I just liked that feeling of fear associated with the exploration.
I love how people who rant about realism and about challenges and about how much more rewarding a game with so-called "harsh" DP's go on and on about how pathetic those of us are, who have a different point of view than their own. Like it elevates them to some kind of "better" gamer status. Ridiculous really.
That being said, anything proposed in this thread as harsh, is, in fact, -NOT- harsh, nor is it realistic. It's merely -ANNOYING-. Losing XP? Just causes you to kill x more mobs. Losing your equipment? Just causes you to run and get new stuff. Stat Loss? Also just a matter of more invested time. There's nothing -HARSH- about that, it's just plain added time-sinks. Why? Because no matter how good you are, you will never continually survive in a MMO. Eventually, your char WILL die and you will invest more time to fix the DP. No matter if it's because of lag, a player who's simply better than you, or being ganked.
The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
This post is by no means intended to flame anyone. I just find it funny how some people think they are so much better than the rest.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
You have only played "games" to where MMORPGs use to be "worlds". See that is the difference in how today's gamers feel about mmorpgs and the ones in the past felt about them. EQ was a living breathing world and you felt like you was in it. World of Warcraft is a fun little video game and that is all.
In a world it takes longer to adventure to the in, you had a lot more player interaction, there was more mystery, you were not led around by linear quest, and death was something you didn't want to happen. I liked WoW initially for a little while it was a fun "game". The community was horrible, there was no common bond between players like in EQ. EQ formed these bonds by making you rely on each other to get things completed.
It is ashame a lot missed out on what EQ was. Now EQ is garbage, don't even try it. It would not be worth it. EQ has changed too much. MMORPGs are going the way of the console games. Shallow instant gratification garbage that is too easy.
So the original poster did not insult other players for enjoying a different style of play? I think he did and he got exactly what he was looking for. He came to upset others. I hate to say it, but a lot of people with his mindset that games should be cake walks, instant gratification garbage tend to be very verbally childish.
Never, ever ever have I understood this.
Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying. No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience. I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#"; deaths.
I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either. I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server. If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.
Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty. Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.
To this:
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
The OP as compared to one of the more recent advocates of Harsh DP's. Notice something? Who is the insulting one?
Regardless of that, I am well aware that both sides tend to insult each other. I was not insulting anyone, I was merely pointing out why I believe that "Harsh" DP's as propagated in this thread are merely an illusion. I tried to explain why I think that way, that's all.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Never, ever ever have I understood this.
Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying. No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience. I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#"; deaths.
I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either. I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server. If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.
Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty. Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.
To this:
ok look i have read all everyones crying and whining but lets be honest here for a sec.....there are so many game out with no death penaltys,all these little carebear hold your hand i want my mommy to breast feed me waste of time no end game bull@#$%.....
aoc in the begining said this was a PVP game i have watched it hoping it would be a true pvp game..if they change it to the same style as 99% of mmos out there a.k.a asking for duel or just a battel ground or no death penalty at all i throw in the towel now cause it just a cut out other games with different pixels
if alll the sissys want to play this game then shut your mouths strap a pair on and deal with the harsh rules like they were intended to be..dont come here crying trying to ruin the game for REAL players who like the hardcore PVP aspect of a game we get denied cause of pansys like you..go play wow and roleplay and kill some npc mobs
The OP as compared to one of the more recent advocates of Harsh DP's. Notice something? Who is the insulting one?
Regardless of that, I am well aware that both sides tend to insult each other. I was not insulting anyone, I was merely pointing out why I believe that "Harsh" DP's as propagated in this thread are merely an illusion. I tried to explain why I think that way, that's all.
i read your other posts and how u explained a illusion of what is or is not harsh...the fact is how many games out have nothing upon death by npc or even pvp if it has any pvp at all....
i can name one game and thats lineage 2...but even lineage 2 has cut its dp down quite alot over the past few expansions cause of all the sissys in it crying....go play c1 of lineage 2 and then come back if u havent hung yourself by your mouse cord and then cry about harsh dp and such but dont complain about a game being pvp b4 you played it just read what the games about and stfu and if its not what you like...GO PLAY SOMTHING ELSE
I could go on a litany of games I have played that have your beloved "harsh" DP's, but honestly, I do not see why. You mate, are a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Thinking yourself better than others because you think you play a more "challenging" game, a game with more harsh DP's. At least some of the others in this thread have the eloquence necessary to convey their point properly.
I rest my case.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
{ Mod Edit }
1) I apologize for typing the way I was brought up to do, and I also apologize for knowing and then using words which you apparently think can only be found in a dictionary.
2) Are you getting off insulting me (see red marked passages)? Whatever did I do to you, besides telling you, in much less insulting words, that I think your "harshness" is, in fact, not harsh, but only another way to get people to spend more time in a game.
3) This discussion was not about PVP per se, but about death penalties, which can arise from PvP OR PvE. I don't know where in my posts you read that I am anti-PvP.
4) If you look closer, you will find a series of games that have loss at death etc. etc. How about EVE Online? Where you lose your ship and your equipment can be looted by the other players? How about original DAoC, where you lost XP due to death? Or even Final Fantasy XI where you could even lose levels if you died too often? And as you yourself stated, Lineage 2? I played them all, and I frankly find it intriguing why you would think I have never played such games before. Just because I do not share your point of view does not mean I didn't check out both sides of the fence, does it?
Finally, I would ask you to stop insulting me with senseless accusations and really petty jibes. Calling me an "ass hat" and "douche bag" won't get your point across any better. And by calling everyone who does not share your view at PvP/DP's sissy's, crybabies and whatnot, you -DO- more or less tell people that -you- think you are better than them.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
or rant on forums with an online tough guy persona,eh?
Some people look at Everest and say "What a challenge!" "I will preserver even in the face of death to view the world from the summit!"
While others, look at Everest and and say "They need an escalator here, and a Denny's over there." "You know just for comfort maybe a couple of bathrooms too!" "After all, that stuff wont change the view one bit!"
It doesn't change the view, but it changes the feeling. From one of climbing Everest, to one of visiting Disneyland.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
Why not? That is the question...
Makes it more a challenge, you're putting something staking something... gambling with it.... not just doing whatever stupid stuff you wanna do (Like running into a WTFBBQOMG dragon) and knowing you dont lose anything.
Challenge! Thats the keyword bro.
___________________
Give me a good skill based sandbox game, and i'll give you a cookie!
or rant on forums with an online tough guy persona,eh?
here it is plain and simple...if u do not like pvp and death penaltys in a game DO NOT PLAY...dont ruin it for others who agree and like the game just gtfo and let the pvpers enjoy themselves or come and play with us and be our tools
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
dont bother trying to eplain anything to singsofdeath he thinks one way and thats his way and if u dont agree then your insignificant in his holier then thou rants and raves...a pvp game is for pvpers end of discussion u have you have 3 options leave, play, or cry untill you get your way....you can obviously see what option he falls under
ps if u argue with him he just reports you to mods