Why argue for PVP or PVE?

Vorglan

First, the number show that about 10% of MMO players play for PVP.   Ok, good for them.  There are PVP games out there, and more on the way (Conan, etc.).  I even wish them a better PVP game soon.

What I'd like to know is why do the vast majority of players seeking a great PVE game have to put up with the boring Grind games?   We find ourselves buying the game, playing for a month or two and then realizing that this is just another endlss grind with no real adventure.

The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one.   But what if I want a group role-playing game?  What this very web site is named, an MMORPG?  Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play).

I don't want to stop PVP players from getting the fun they want in their games (MMOPKGs) but why is it that publishers have to give us MMORPG fans such incredtibly stupid game play?   if I get another 'take this to Bob' or 'bring me 35 wolf fangs' task (I can't bring myself to call them Quests)  I'm going to fall over in boredom.   I'm so tired of buying each game that comes out only to find out it is more of the same crappy game play.

Please, Publishers,  enough with the excuses, have some balls and back a game developer that is willing to make a real game, not a clone of the same boring crap.

elvenangel

The biggest problem is people are looking for the 'end' of the game and compare it to Single Player RPG's.  MMO's were designed to be 'worlds' that you addictively live in and carve out your own adventure in.  Its supposed to be endless, when you walk around the world it doesn't just end does it? No of course not it just circles around and you start a new path around. 

The unfortante problem for designers has become how to do we do that without making it a continued level progression or skill grind?   End Game Design is still the most shakey part of MMOs. 

WoW sort of took everything past MMO's had and simpliefied it and blew it up into giant porportions.  And then dropped the features that Role Players love the most like experience of doing it for yourself without a set path to follow.  Because they have such huge subscriber numbers other games ... like Lord of the Rings have followed this method and honestly...it sucks.   

While I'm all for some structure so that I can do things on a path if I want to and feel like im doing something big I like the freedom of say EQ1 where you didn't have to follow a set path.  It helped if you had an idea of where to go but....doing it yourself without all the hand holding was the best part for days when I really felt like striking out as a Ranger and exploring.   I'm not against some hand holding though somedays you just want to cruise in do something really fun and cruise out.   Otherdays when you have alot of time you want to sail in and take your time setting out on some great long quest or great personal quest to find something unique.

PvE games these days are just to overly structured and its NOT the PvPers fault, thats why there's server rule sets.  Granted since WoW came along they've kind of Hurt what PvP was really about especially for RP PvPers. 

I'm not sure what your trying to really say but suggest that it is PvPers fault wel, as a PvE'er who likes to PvP when its for a reason (like protecting territory from the enemy) I find it really lame that your trying to suggest that its PvPer's fault for the destruction of a PvE game.   Maybe I'm miss understanding your intent, since you weren't really clear.  I came in thinking from the name of the topic alone it had to do with server rule sets only to find a rant that sounds as if you're blaming PvPers for the lameness of recent PvE games.  Or maybe you just don't understand what MMOs really are meant to be.

Its people who come in masses to MMOs who have no idea what MMOs are about and think they should have an 'end' that have destroyed the games.   You can't look for a Single Player Story Game in MMO's you have to create your own story using the setting thats given to you.

Oh..and to your final statement..you'll never find a game that doesn't share similiar features to another one.  Innovation & evolving things that work actually work better and tend to be more popular than totally tossing out everything.  Don't fix whats broken...just evolve it to newer heights.  Thats how the world works. 

Vorglan

Originally posted by elvenangel


I'm not sure what your trying to really say but suggest that it is PvPers fault

Actually, you missed the point.  I wasn't taking ANY shots at PVP play.  I was simply saying that they deserver their game... and so do PVE players (who are the majority).

And who ever made it a rule that MMORPGs have to be endless?  Is there a MMORPG bible somewhere that I missed?  Or... are Publishers just trying to make money?   Well, of course they are, so my question is, why, if you are trying to make money, do you make such a boring MMORPG game that the average player leaves your game in between one and three months?

Why not make a MMORPG that reaches a climax in a full year of play, but at least gives the player the REASON to stay and pay you for twelve months because they are having such a good time?

I'd take 12 times $15 every day over 3 times $15, but maybe they use new math or something.

paulscott

MMO does not equal grouping.

even if all you do in a MMO is solo the MMO still offers an experiance that is completely different when compared to a single player RPG.

gillvane1

I like to have both PvP and PvE in a game so I can switch back and forth. Either one by itself is boring.

rikilii

Originally posted by Vorglan


First, the number show that about 10% of MMO players play for PVP.   Ok, good for them.  There are PVP games out there, and more on the way (Conan, etc.).  I even wish them a better PVP game soon.
I'd love to see where you get these numbers.
What I'd like to know is why do the vast majority of players seeking a great PVE game have to put up with the boring Grind games?   We find ourselves buying the game, playing for a month or two and then realizing that this is just another endlss grind with no real adventure.
What does this question have to do with the presence or absence of PVP in a game?  PVP can be just as big a grind as PVE if there is no story attached to it.
The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one.   But what if I want a group role-playing game?  What this very web site is named, an MMORPG?  Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play).
I don't want to stop PVP players from getting the fun they want in their games (MMOPKGs) but why is it that publishers have to give us MMORPG fans such incredtibly stupid game play?   if I get another 'take this to Bob' or 'bring me 35 wolf fangs' task (I can't bring myself to call them Quests)  I'm going to fall over in boredom.   I'm so tired of buying each game that comes out only to find out it is more of the same crappy game play.
What is a MMOPKG?  Is this your way of saying the PVP and RPG are mutually exclusive.  If that's the case, then you are totally wrong.  At the end of the day, most players don't seem to give a crap about the story in the game.  They just want to do the quest and get the xp.  If you don't believe me, please explain why there are so many "guides" to tell you how to get through quests without figuring them out yourself.  The minute a quest requires you to explore for something or spend some time thinking rather than just going out and killing x number of mobs, all you see is people complaining about how it is too vague, spamming the public channels for someone to tell them how to do it, going to a website for the answer, or asking for a high level character to run them through it.
Please, Publishers,  enough with the excuses, have some balls and back a game developer that is willing to make a real game, not a clone of the same boring crap.

 

Vorglan

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Vorglan


First, the number show that about 10% of MMO players play for PVP.   Ok, good for them.  There are PVP games out there, and more on the way (Conan, etc.).  I even wish them a better PVP game soon.
I'd love to see where you get these numbers.
What I'd like to know is why do the vast majority of players seeking a great PVE game have to put up with the boring Grind games?   We find ourselves buying the game, playing for a month or two and then realizing that this is just another endlss grind with no real adventure.
What does this question have to do with the presence or absence of PVP in a game?  PVP can be just as big a grind as PVE if there is no story attached to it.
The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one.   But what if I want a group role-playing game?  What this very web site is named, an MMORPG?  Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play).
I don't want to stop PVP players from getting the fun they want in their games (MMOPKGs) but why is it that publishers have to give us MMORPG fans such incredtibly stupid game play?   if I get another 'take this to Bob' or 'bring me 35 wolf fangs' task (I can't bring myself to call them Quests)  I'm going to fall over in boredom.   I'm so tired of buying each game that comes out only to find out it is more of the same crappy game play.
What is a MMOPKG?  Is this your way of saying the PVP and RPG are mutually exclusive.  If that's the case, then you are totally wrong.  At the end of the day, most players don't seem to give a crap about the story in the game.  They just want to do the quest and get the xp.  If you don't believe me, please explain why there are so many "guides" to tell you how to get through quests without figuring them out yourself.  The minute a quest requires you to explore for something or spend some time thinking rather than just going out and killing x number of mobs, all you see is people complaining about how it is too vague, spamming the public channels for someone to tell them how to do it, going to a website for the answer, or asking for a high level character to run them through it.
Please, Publishers,  enough with the excuses, have some balls and back a game developer that is willing to make a real game, not a clone of the same boring crap.

 

It amazes me how you people keep trying to make this post  an argument about PVP and RPG when even the title clearly states "Why argue for PVP or PVE".   I've acknowledged PVP as a viable fan base, and though the ratios I've heard may be right or wrong, that really doesn't matter in this discussion.  Let me put this to rest once again, whether you want PVP mixed with your RPG options, or just want RPG, it doesn't affect the fact that the RPG elements of the current MMO games are about sixth grade level entertainment.  Collect ten rat tails, come on, that's what you think a good RPG quest should be about? 

As to players who can't figure out how to play a decent quest, that's not my problem.  I have to believe that there are enough intelligent people out there to back a good game, otherwise everyone in the world would play checkers, and no one would play chess.  Everyone would watch children's comics, and no one would go to see a good movie.   If we only make games for idiots, what does that say about us all?

 

Vorglan

 

Originally posted by gillvane1


I like to have both PvP and PvE in a game so I can switch back and forth. Either one by itself is boring.

 

I couldn't agree more with the last part of your statement, either one by itself is boring.   But, what I'm asking is why does it have to be that way?  Why make the RPG part boring?   Why not make it... drum roll please... interesting?   God help us if I had to deal with that god aweful concept... an interesting quest.

No, instead I have to be bored stiff by moronic grocery list tasks.   God, what a great book or movie it would have been for Lord of the Rings if Gandalf had arrived in the Shire and said to Frodo.  Your Quest, young hero, is to obtain eight cabbages!"

Frodo, "What about the evil ring of power?"

Gandalf, "Er.... just bring me the cabbages, then I'll send you after some rat tails."

 

Rayalist

Originally posted by Vorglan
 
 If we only make games for idiots, what does that say about us all?
 

That you can make tons of money off of idiots?

Vorglan

 

Originally posted by Rayalist


 
Originally posted by Vorglan
 
 If we only make games for idiots, what does that say about us all?
 

 

That you can make tons of money off of idiots?

 

That's true, but also kind of a misconception.   Certainly WoW is making billions of dollars off of moronic game play, but ask the countless clones that go out of buisness after spending 30 to 70 million in development if they made money off idiots?  Or were they the idiots to spend that kind of money developing a clone doomed to failure?   If you are a publisher, and you want to make money, offer something different from WoW, otherwise why would players leave WoW? 

Reklaw

Originally posted by Vorglan


 
The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one.   But what if I want a group role-playing game?  What this very web site is named, an MMORPG?  Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play).
Once people realise how different it is to simply build a single player rpg compared to build a MMO we will not see questions like that anymore, as it 's quit simply: single player RPG's are build for ONE person, no imagine to build a game that could house thousends if not millions of players, many want world effect where something like that takes allot of time and above all TECH that is able to translate that onto the screen, we not there yet...we will but this will take time. Due to me being into games for such a long time i can say that games have evolved greatly, some in good way's some in way's i don't like but all in all compared to the games i played 10 years ago the difference is HUGH.
Now wait a few years then look at where we are with MMO's. Also if you want to roleplay nobody is stopping you, only thing that stops people in most cases to roleplay is that some seem to be depended on roleplay feature's that are in the game, the imagination of some people does not reach far so i do understand some depend on games their feature's instead of doing what they want to do.  I'm not saying that MMO's should NOT have more feature's that would catter to the roleplay community, but to me to many people seem to be very depended on feature's instead of themselfs.

 

Vorglan

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Vorglan


 
The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one.   But what if I want a group role-playing game?  What this very web site is named, an MMORPG?  Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play).
Once people realise how different it is to simply build a single player rpg compared to build a MMO we will not see questions like that anymore, as it 's quit simply: single player RPG's are build for ONE person, no imagine to build a game that could house thousends if not millions of players, many want world effect where something like that takes allot of time and above all TECH that is able to translate that onto the screen, we not there yet...we will but this will take time. Due to me being into games for such a long time i can say that games have evolved greatly, some in good way's some in way's i don't like but all in all compared to the games i played 10 years ago the difference is HUGH.
Now wait a few years then look at where we are with MMO's. Also if you want to roleplay nobody is stopping you, only thing that stops people in most cases to roleplay is that some seem to be depended on roleplay feature's that are in the game, the imagination of some people does not reach far so i do understand some depend on games their feature's instead of doing what they want to do.  I'm not saying that MMO's should NOT have more feature's that would catter to the roleplay community, but to me to many people seem to be very depended on feature's instead of themselfs.

 

These are all good points that you make.   But I'm not so sure that the technology is not available to create a better MMORPG game now,  There are developers out there right now getting ready (or already working) on games that will address these issues.  I think we need to tell them in forums like this, that we want more.  That if they will spend the effort to build these more interesting games that we will come and play them.  They have an audience out here for better games, so give us the good stuff.

If there are any devs out there working on games with better RPG game play, I'd love to hear from you.  Just don't tell me about how much better your graphics are, or how cool your equipment is, or how neat your advancement system is going to be, tell me that you have better game play, more interesting quests and stories.  I want action, adventure, thrills... give me a roller coaster ride through an epic adventure... please, no more 'collect a number of these' quests.  No more clones of the same old MMO game.

paulscott

since PvEers buy and play collect 35 wolf claw games that's what you get.  The only way you're ever going to get something different is voting with your wallet and so many are doing so by playing WoW.

Reklaw

Originally posted by Vorglan


 
These are all good points that you make.   But I'm not so sure that the technology is not available to create a better MMORPG game now,  There are developers out there right now getting ready (or already working) on games that will address these issues.  I think we need to tell them in forums like this, that we want more.  That if they will spend the effort to build these more interesting games that we will come and play them.  They have an audience out here for better games, so give us the good stuff.
 
If there are any devs out there working on games with better RPG game play, I'd love to hear from you.  Just don't tell me about how much better your graphics are, or how cool your equipment is, or how neat your advancement system is going to be, tell me that you have better game play, more interesting quests and stories.  I want action, adventure, thrills... give me a roller coaster ride through an epic adventure... please, no more 'collect a number of these' quests.  No more clones of the same old MMO game.

I agree the tech that is availble could do much more, tho tech. in mmo''s i personaly see as being behind 2/3 years from that what i see is possible in single player games. But i do agree tech already could do more then what we see these day's, but .........we also know what happens when developers do take those risks. Personaly i feel it will be very hard to please everyone with MMO's, but i'm sure there will come a day......

Vorglan

Originally posted by paulscott


since PvEers buy and play collect 35 wolf claw games that's what you get.  The only way you're ever going to get something different is voting with your wallet and so many are doing so by playing WoW.

I'd love to vote with my wallet.  I don't pay WoW to play, so they don't get my money.  And sadly, I can't find a game out there to give my money vote to that offers great quests.   So, I'm stating (straight from my wallet) I'll pay to play a game with better game play.  Developers and Publishers, give me the chance to give you my money, please.

ThomasN7

I think most developers go behind the philosophy of making simple easy to grasp games because they are afraid that if you give people something too complex to do they won't like it and won't continue to play or even buy your game. It is mostly about appealing to the masses on what type of things they like. Some of us may find it to be stupid silly boring quests and gameplay but if 90% of the population likes those types of things then I believe developers are going to go with what works. They aren't going to cater to the 10% who wants something more difficult to do because obviously they will make more money catering to the 90% rather than those 10% who want something different or even more challenging.

Vorglan

Originally posted by SaintViktor


I think most developers go behind the philosophy of making simple easy to grasp games because they are afraid that if you give people something too complex to do they won't like it and won't continue to play or even buy your game. It is mostly about appealing to the masses on what type of things they like. Some of us may find it to be stupid silly boring quests and gameplay but if 90% of the population likes those types of things then I believe developers are going to go with what works. They aren't going to cater to the 10% who wants something more difficult to do because obviously they will make more money catering to the 90% rather than those 10% who want something different or even more challenging.

Yes, I agree with you.  However, by making another clone of WoW they are NOT going to get that 90% of the population, as it is already entrenched in WoW.  There is no reason for them to leave.  I'd rather get 10% of the population that wants a different game, and would be willing to leave WoW to get it, than a fraction of a percent of the people who want WoW and already have it.  This is why so many of the clone games go out of business, or just fail to claim any significant portion of the player pie.

paulscott

Originally posted by Vorglan

Originally posted by paulscott


*stuff*

I'd love to vote with my wallet.  I don't pay WoW to play, so they don't get my money.  And sadly, I can't find a game out there to give my money vote to that offers great quests.   So, I'm stating (straight from my wallet) I'll pay to play a game with better game play.  Developers and Publishers, give me the chance to give you my money, please.

guildwars offers some of the best story quests around(in a MMO), judging from random jumps into the vanguard forum they have at least some very good quests there as well(shame you'd be supporting a game/company that thinks they can have crap releases), and just to further demonstrat the pitifulness of current MMO questing runescape has a well above average MMO quests are(the community kills so much).

________________

as for my views on questing it's the same as yours on soloing,  why the hell are you playing a MMO.  there aren't many current designs that are suited for it.   and in a single player game you can completely affect the world making it so much more entertaining.   this is mainly meant for food for thought since your views seem to drift towards 'this is how MMO's should be played'.

Vorglan

Originally posted by paulscott


 
as for my views on questing it's the same as yours on soloing,  why the hell are you playing a MMO.  there aren't many current designs that are suited for it.   and in a single player game you can completely affect the world making it so much more entertaining.   this is mainly meant for food for thought since your views seem to drift towards 'this is how MMO's should be played'.

The answer to your question is very simple, I have a LOT of game playing friends, and we all want to play together.   I have no desire to solo all the time.  I want to have a guild where my friends can gather and group up in various configurations and go out on an engaging and interesting quest.  So far we get everything accept the interesting quest part.  Only an MMO situation can supply us with everything we want, but only if they improve the quests.  

Josher

Are there still boneheads that think you HAVE TO follow a specific path in WOW.  The path is right there if you want it, but you don't have listen to one single direction.  The only path you HAVE TO follow is, in order to get to lvl 6 you have to get through level 5 first.  How you do it is up to you.  You can do quests.  You can exlpore and kill random things.  You can train a whole bunch of different crafting skills or not.  You can train cooking, or not.  You can learn to make bandages or not.  You can use the AH to buy gear or quest for it or find it randomly.  You can do dungeons and group up or solo.  You can get a mount or 2 or 3, or not.  You can buy every spell for your class, or not.  You can collect pets or not.  You can collect hats or shirts or not.  You can use fireworks or not.  You can throw snowballs at people or not.  You can Roleplay or not.  You can PvP or not.  You can gank people or not.  You can explore every inch of the world or not.  You can read all the in-game lore by collecting all the books, or not.  You can do loads of loads of things or you can just solo, play by yourself, get to lvl 20 and deem the game boring and simplistic.  You can enjoy all the things WOW has to offer, or not.

Also, are there boneheads who actually beleive every quest in WOW is "Go collect 5 widgets.".  If you think that, you can't have an opinion, because you never played the game past lvl 10 or stepped foot in a dungeon.  Other MMOs have great quests.  WOW has lots of great quests, and loads of simple ones.   It doesn't make the simple ones bad.  Just be thankful they're even there.  As always, you don't have to do any quests in the game if you don't want to.  You can play like EQ or AC and just grind spawns till your fingers fall off;)  TO say WOW quests are boring or simplistic means you never even bothered looking for the good ones.  If you think EVERY single quest should be awesome and unique, you never programmed a game in your life.

 

Anofalye

Actually, you are alien to me.  I would play EvE, WAR or AoC if it was all re-arranged to rewards the PvE-groupers with everything.

 

You complains at the gameplays themselves. I myself never even raise a question at the gameplay itself, I just want to make sure that foreign gameplays (PvP/Raiding/RvR) are not put on me.  You want MORE than what they can offer.  However, sometimes they are just not believing in themselves...prolly because of peoples like you.

 

I don't know why such devs believe that I would accept to cope with PvP... I won't.  I just want to play their PvE game, completely, fully, totally.

 

You scare these devs.  They think PvE, they think of you.  I just want the SAME game, but geared, totally toward PvE-grouping.  Many peoples are just as simple as I am... Why they don't believe and deny us, is just a mystery.  Sure, a dev himself may not understand why I enjoy the game.  Total War devs don't understand why I purchase their game and play the GBT only.  Who cares?  I enjoy completely and support it, I am not forced to do RTS battles ever.

 

FACT: I would still play EQ if it was not for the raiding...or CoX if not for the nerfs.  Many players would be doing like me.  Peoples are simple (not stupid), how many peoples never PvP in these PvP games?  They are just a tiny fraction of the PvE player base which doesn't try the game because of it.  Force PvP has the same impacts on me as raiding or nerfs.

 

PvE-grouping server would at least double the income of any PvP-oriented game...if present at release.

Vorglan

Originally posted by Josher


Are there still boneheads that think you HAVE TO follow a specific path in WOW.  The path is right there if you want it, but you don't have listen to one single direction.  The only path you HAVE TO follow is, in order to get to lvl 6 you have to get through level 5 first.  How you do it is up to you.  You can do quests.  You can exlpore and kill random things.  You can train a whole bunch of different crafting skills or not.  You can train cooking, or not.  You can learn to make bandages or not.  You can use the AH to buy gear or quest for it or find it randomly.  You can do dungeons and group up or solo.  You can get a mount or 2 or 3, or not.  You can buy every spell for your class, or not.  You can collect pets or not.  You can collect hats or shirts or not.  You can use fireworks or not.  You can throw snowballs at people or not.  You can Roleplay or not.  You can PvP or not.  You can gank people or not.  You can explore every inch of the world or not.  You can read all the in-game lore by collecting all the books, or not.  You can do loads of loads of things or you can just solo, play by yourself, get to lvl 20 and deem the game boring and simplistic.  You can enjoy all the things WOW has to offer, or not.
Also, are there boneheads who actually beleive every quest in WOW is "Go collect 5 widgets.".  If you think that, you can't have an opinion, because you never played the game past lvl 10 or stepped foot in a dungeon.  Other MMOs have great quests.  WOW has lots of great quests, and loads of simple ones.   It doesn't make the simple ones bad.  Just be thankful they're even there.  As always, you don't have to do any quests in the game if you don't want to.  You can play like EQ or AC and just grind spawns till your fingers fall off;)  TO say WOW quests are boring or simplistic means you never even bothered looking for the good ones.  If you think EVERY single quest should be awesome and unique, you never programmed a game in your life.
 

I've played WoW and every other MMO into higher levels, so I've seen what you are calling 'great quests'.  They are simplistic and endlessly boring.  Having played all these games, I know about all the types of so called 'game play' that they have offered.  I don't need a list.   None of that changes the fact that they don't have interesting quests.  

You obviously expect much less in a game than do I, and  WoW has certainly proven that there are a lot of people like you.   I'd like a game with a little more attention to game play elements like quests.  I'll tell you what, you describe the most amazing quest you ever went on in WoW, and I'll explain the most simple of quests that would make a game enjoyable for me.  Let's see how they compare. 

BlackWatch

I think that a 'sand box' game is really the only way to provide what it seems you are looking for. 

Otherwise, you will be forced to follow 'a path'... path dictated by your level and how you can relate to the world around you.  Creature level, armor level, etc.,...

 

Celimah

I personally don't like PvP.  I tried it in WOW and EQ2.  What surprised me was the lack of actual tactics used.  Initially I found a heightened sense of fun do to worrying about who was going to attack me.  Even that faded after a short period. 

On the other hand I am bored with PvE.   I keep drifting from game to game trying to find something that interests me and can hold my attention.  As each new game comes out, I give it a try.  Unfortunately, no game has yet met my expectations.   I can only hope.

talismen351

Why argue that Ford is better/worse than Chev? Ppl just like to argue. N one side always thinks they are right and the only way to think is their way or you are an idiot...quite simple.

paulscott

perhaps you should run through what the perfect quest should be.   that would surely enlighten us all.