Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why Dungeons and Dragons is superior to any MMORPG.
Milky
Member Posts: 339
Any traditional Pen and Paper RPGs like D&D, is and will always be superior to MMORPGS. Why?
In a traditional RPG like D&D, your only limit is your imagination. In a computer game you are limited to budgets, what the programmers and designers have created for you, and what is technilogically available at the time.
Has GMing and storytelling in games become a lost art? In so many 'modern' games these days I do not feel the sense of wonderment or being transported and immersed into another living, breathing world like I once did. Not like I do with a good book, film, or a good GM/storyteller. To me, it seems as games have evolved and have technilogically advanced from bits to gigabytes, something got lost in the process. Game worlds these days seem to have forgotten about good stories and the art of transporting you to another place and time, and instead are more focused on how many FPS you will get, or how cool the graphics will look, or how awesome this weapon will be when I obliterate enemies with it. To me, its all meaningless with no substance behind it all, doing things for the sake of doing. It all gets dull and boring and drab after you've killed the 1,000,000th bad guy in the same generic shooter, rts, rpg you've played 100 times before.
There are some exceptions but they are very few and rare. The Legend of Zelda games always give me that sense of wonderment, on the other hand its a successful formula that has been mastered over time and it is nearly the same forumla in every Zelda game. Then there is Shadow of the Collusus, which is done masterfully as well. Even in a totally empty world where only godly voices and massive creatures reside, and your horse is your only friend I feel completely immerssed and transported to another world. The landscapes speak to you and the world itself is like a character in the game. You feel like you are in a living breathing world. I belive one of the biggest reasons Dragon Quest VIII is so successful is because of the beautiful story behind the game.
In every MMORPG I have played, in every single one, I feel they have missed the mark when it comes to this (SWG got close). And by far it is the most important part.
Comments
I tend to agree with you and coincidentally I rejoined DDO (not the same as pen and paper, I know) just last night. The one thing that online gaming does have that PnP doesn't however, is the opportunity for folks to connect anonymously w/o ever leaving thier homes. PnP needs a group of dedicated players and TIME from thier lives to travel to the gathering as well as staying for X hours to get somewhere.Time is the tough one. Computers make things 'easier'.
Computer/console games allows you to connect pretty much anytime (aside from missing ISP and perhaps maintenence of the game) and poke around solo or with a group just by having a computer.
I will agree though, having PnP does add a heck of a lot to a gaming session if you can find one.
I totally agree that paper and pencil RPGs can be much more immersive and entertaining then computer MMOs because a human GM can react better then an MMO. That being said MMOs are far more convinent then paper and pencil games. Right now I am with out a group to play RPGs with. When I was in a group it was often a struggle to get ready, drive to and then drive home on a Saturday evening. Also, I left my roleplaying group because I didn't agree with the direction the group was taking and some of the players personalities.
With MMOs I can login anytime without having to go anywhere, I can play for 30 minutes,then log out, eat dinner with my wife and then log back in and play some more. If I dont like some one I can /ignore them.
In the end MMOs versus RPGs are a trade off, you can have a great game that is immersive and exciting or you can have the convenience of playing when you want.
It would be great if CRPGs and MMOs could do better at story telling and being immersive, I feel they will improve once the devs figure out that pushing the tech envelope can only go so far and they need to push the plot envelope and make the tech work with that.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
LOL, I still have my original D&D brown cover 1973 Gary Gygax original books around somewhere. Before I gamed online I was very involved with PnP games. It varied from D&D, Gamma World, Traveller, Champions, Battletech, Gurps, and even a couple games of my own design.,Ground Pounder and Flax.
But alas, I computer game. But had fun while the times lasted. Loved the Cons. Dragon, Gen ect.
Well if you don't have a very good imagination a mmo will be better imho
Also having a good GM to lead a pen and paper roleplayergame is also a must...if you don't it just turns into a dicerolling game...
This is slowly changing. I believe the future of traditional pen and paper games will have a place not only in some parent's basement but also online. With chatrooms, software that can randomlly generate dice rolls, software that will allow you to speak to others online with a microphone and headphones, and the development of other online tools the future of traditional D&D can be played in an online enviornment from the comfort of your own home without travel in the same capacity as you could face to face.
There is nothing wrong with a good Monty GM!
This is slowly changing. I believe the future of traditional pen and paper games will have a place not only in some parent's basement but also online. With chatrooms, software that can randomlly generate dice rolls, software that will allow you to speak to others online with a microphone and headphones, and the development of other online tools the future of traditional D&D can be played in an online enviornment from the comfort of your own home without travel in the same capacity as you could face to face.
I was just going to say. PnP RPGs basically involve paper and speaking. No need to be in the same room together.
How hard would it be to create a program that could be accessed by 5+ people, which integrates all the tables or other rules, includes all the character sheets, an interface for die rolls, a VOIP client, and even a simulated miniatures platform (if you're into miniatures). I bet this would be relatively easy to do with a single program.
It would also allow for evolution of the rules to be somewhat more complex, as multiple die rolls could be collapsed into a single input/output event.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
In PnP:
You can hire people to carry and/or "vendor" your stuff. You can climb or fly over ledges. You can build an army if you want to. That overlord you killed stays dead (or otherwise doesn't respawn almost instantly without a specific plot device). And you get all of that overlord's stuff - not random pieces. If you want to disguise yourself as an enemy guard (or otherwise need his gear) you only need to take out one. You can save towns from menaces or you can wipe towns off the map. You can change the world.
Characters aren't limited by classes so much. Even if you're a warrior, you can still use a powerful bow/spear/hammer for significant ranged damage. Taunting and "pulling" attempts are laughed at. Heals are to reduce down time and are rarely used during a fight. And everyone is free to be clever (setting traps/ambushes using the environment, using magic/items creatively, negotiating, stalling, etc.).
In an MMO:
You can't have thousands of heroes/villains changing the world significantly (or at all currently). And you can't program in 'clever options' for encounters that thousands of people repeat dozens or hundreds of times because they will all google for the tricks before or shortly after their first try. And the major game makers have refused to attempt any sort of AI for NPCs (other than tweak what happens when you try to pull them). The advantages of MMOs are: 1) you see what's going on (graphics), 2) you can play whenever, for as long as you want to with or without company, 3) you're in a much larger swimming pool - it's more challenging to be exceptional but if you are you know you've done -something-.
I've seen plenty of "story" in games like CoH, EQ and WoW. I've never felt like I was part of one though because we can't make any choices other than: proceed or quit. And we can't ultimately fail if we don't quit. I almost never pay attention to the 'why'. Half of the time I have paid attention, I've thought that my character wouldn't be doing this... but he 'needs' xp/stuff/rep-to-get-stuff so... A GM really is needed for variety, spontaneity, validation and a real challenge but oh well, at least there's pointless PvP.
NWN had some potential but NWN 2 was just too crappy.
I don't like DnD so much - severe balance issues in everything I've seen since Unearthed Arcana came out - but I certainly agree that no MMO or MUD that I've tried has come close to what a real RPG like DnD is. I'd drop MMOs and join a large enough group of players that played just about anything regularly and had decent GMs... but those are tough to find (and I'm picky).
While i do agree that DnD PnP is of course better than any mmo (atm), i must say that there is a thing thats better than DnD.... thats WFRP , or Warhammer FRP developed by Black Industries... the new W40k Dark Heresy is simply amazing... if you like Warhammer and PnP this is a must.
Which really brings forth the biggest point here: comparing MMOs to PnP is like comparing apples to oranges for one critical reason: PnP is not "massively multiplayer".
Everything in an MMO has to respawn so other players can access it, because it is "massively multiplayer."
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I agree, Online MMo's are a very different experience than PnP. I have so many fond memories of those AD&D, Star Frontiers, Top Sercret, MarvelSUperHEroes, BattleTech, Gurps,..hell..even BootHill,..and The Awful Green Things From OUterSpace!
What MMORPG's have done, you cannot deny,...is broaden the genre to so many more people who never thought what we did on our mom's diningroom table with a few buddies for hours on end was Cool.
It even got more girls involved! And Girls are cool.
: p
Now how is the imagination of ONE person be superior to imagination of a large team? Granted you are asked to do repetitive things. That is purely because developers want to stretch their resources. However, if you just do each thing ONCE, a MMORPG has much more content than a whole year of D&D campaign.
I use to play D&D too and the accounting is horrible. There is a reason why the normal max level is 20. It takes and hour just to do the accounting of leveling up.
And yes, storytelling is becoming a lost art. That is probably because stories no longer sells in video games. Just look at the adventure game genre, which focuses on stories. It is no longer a big market and has gone niche.
People who wants stories go to books, movies & tv show. Video games are for action & hack-n-slash or strategy games.
Wizards is actually putting out an online tabletop system with the 4.0 ruleset.
Well although wizards are putting together their own D&D virtual tabletop for 4e, I currently use www.fantasygrounds.com.
As I'm not that impressed with what I have read about 4e, I'll carry on using 3.5 for an Eberron campaign and fantasygrounds has lots of rulesets that have been made for it by Digital Adventures (with Rolemaster to come this year with a bit of luck)
I truly do not understand the point of drawing this distinction. This is an apples and oranges comparison. You might as well point out that real sex is better than pornography.
I am going to agree and disagree with what you are saying.
I will liken your comparison to books and movies. Books for me have a much greater intrinsic value to movies because as you read you create the world and characters in your head. When I go see a movie of a book I am always disappointed somewhere. The thing is, as much as I love to read, sometimes I prefer a movie for the simple fact that I am a visual person. So what is superior...books or movies. My intellectual self will say a book by far, but my wanting to relax and be entertained self says movies.
Now getting back to your comparison of D & D versus mmo's. I would have to say in principle I agree with you. However, I am 39 years old and married and I don't know a single person that plays D & D anymore. So it would be hard to get the kind of community together that I can experience passively playing an MMO. Also, the convenience of sitting here in my office playing an mmo and not having people over or going over to someone's house to play D & D is a relief. I don't mean to sound antisocial, but I have a very intense job where people are all around me...they are in pain emotionally, physically, some are dying....and the last thing I want to do when I have a day off is spend it around more people. I just want to be at home by myself and have the illusion of being around other people, because I want to relax.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts on the subject.
it will have an online presence too
www.enworld.org/index.php
GenCon 2007
-- "The digital game table was a large part of the conversation, with screenshots on how you generate a character online using the physical books you own, customize its appearance, and then generate a "virtual miniature" for use in the online game experience. The online game is tool, not a game in itself - a mapping system with battlemaps, generators and so forth, all run by a DM.
EQ2 fan sites
For those that say that comparing MMOs and paper and pencil RPGS is like comparing apples and oranges I would like to point out that while that may be true now at one time it wasn't. Back in the day players expected to RPG in their MMORPGs, now the RPG has been removed so that we are left with MMO.
True MMOs today are very different from paper and pencil RPGs but for me and many others we would like to move towards putting RPG back into the genre.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
The biggest draw to any game isnt stats, numbers, graphs or graphics...its interaction. What D&D does is it brings people together ..MMORPG are able to bring more people together but to a lesser extent..there is still a disconnect in MMORPGs.
This may change in time. but at this point, Ill take face to face over vent
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
A "Massively Multiplayer" game isn't that much different from a pen and paper game if you look at it like this:
WoW has 10 million players. But you aren't going to play the game with 10 million people at once. You're going to log onto one server. And that server has maybe 3,000 players on it. But you aren't going to play with 3,000 players at once. Unless you're raiding, you'll be in agroup of something like 6 players, the same as a D&D PnP game.
The big difference, is that in a Paper and Pencil game the GM tells a story, and interacts with the players. You can't do this in 10 minutes, and have a good story that has a beginning, middle, and end. YOu need the same 4-6 people to sit down and commit to 4 or 5 hours of gameplay, then then continue the story later.
In an MMORPG, you can join a group for 15 minutes, complete a quest, then never see those people again. That doesn't work for a Paper and Pencil sort of experience.
The D&D 4th edition is made to play online, so there you go:
<<Which really brings forth the biggest point here: comparing MMOs to PnP is like comparing apples to oranges for one critical reason: PnP is not "massively multiplayer".
Everything in an MMO has to respawn so other players can access it, because it is "massively multiplayer." >>
Content doesn't have to be static but with 2000+ people playing it is a big challenge if it isn't (it would require a much bigger world and fun combat-like activities that don't involve killing/looting for routine grinding/training). Game makers are still too busy running with EQ1's fundamentals so it will be awhile before we get to where most can even imagine something that isn't.
I just don't seem to understand how you can compare PnP to Digital Media. Claiming one is better then other. Two very different forms of entertainment that, go about the process of entertaining in very different ways. It's like comparing a car and a truck. They both have the same underlying function of transportation, but they are still very different in nature. Serving different more specialized needs.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Computer Games > PnP Roleplay/Tabletop boardgames
Nuff said
Look at
http://www.openrpg.com/
I can easily "imagine" it, but the problem is that such a world would either:
1. Have to be primarily player-driven (i.e. PVP); or
2. Require a team of 2000 designers and 10 years to develop using currently available technology.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good