Originally posted by Annex1 That is an incredibly stupid way of playing any game, and the reason why I quit AC1 and Eve. Storing your best stuff in a station or on a mule because you dont want to risk it being lost or destroyed is ridiculous. What is the point of having those items in the first place? Why have a battleship if you cant use it because its irreplaceable? That is no fun way of playing a game. If I have something good, I want to use it. I want to be proud that I have it. I want to show it off. I want it to elevate me to god status. I dont want to go "hey all, I have Uber Armor of Pwning but its stored in a bank because I dont want to lose it!".
Unlike AC1 items, someone in a cruiser/frigate does provide additional support to a fleet to be considered worthy of having around.While its firepower is much lower, a frigate isn't exactly useless either.All i'm saying is there are many people around who think they're Mr. Hotshit McBattleship and take it into combat, often uninsured and loose it (gasp) and are back to square one, eating veldspar rocks in a thorax.I for one do use battleships and expensive modules, but only if the job requires it.A fleet of frigates is much more fun to play anyway.
I would reall like the option of permadeath, theres nothing like playing with a bunch of other players that dont want to die. First of all teamwork becomes absolutely key to survival and also people bring out there true nature, if they are losing the weak will flee for their lives while the strong fight on. Much like if they were actually living the lives of their characters, and also that introduces skill into an otherwise skill-less roleplaying environment.
I agree with you on some level, Trytone, a harsh death penalty really does cause players to become more involved in teamwork and tactics. This is of course a good thing, especially for community driven games in which interaction should be promoted. But the trouble once again, with permadeath, is that a poor team, or inescapable problems like lag, could cost you it all. If you try to soften it to a merely a heavy penalty, then you just have a system that is unbearable to play, due to the inevitable, immense frustration that comes with death.
Lady of Darkness, you seem to have quite a fair amount of experience with death. You said that a middle penalty, not too hard and not too soft, would be best. What sort of penalty do you think should play into this gap? I ask because I agree with the placement of the best penalty upon the scale of punishment severity, I just cant imagine quite what would be best.
-------------------------------------------
MMORPGs: Treadmills that make you fatter.
www.silkyvenom.com <-- a good site for Vanguard information
While I wouldn't play a game with perma death, I do believe death should have a real sting to it. Otherwise death means nothing, and you just don't get that same feeling of fear in a risky situation.
Personally I believe in some death penalty. But, players should be able to recover from penalty faster if they die multiple times in the same day. It very upsetting in EQ /AO when you die 2 or 3 times while trying to recover corpse and losting 20 or 30% exp.
The people that hate the death penalties the most are the ones that die the most. MMORPG's aren't exactly difficult. Learn to not suck and quit whining, i love harsh penalties, but definitely no perma-death because people CAN die without it being their fault.
Killer 73% Explorer 60% Achiever 46% Socializer 20%
___________________ Killer 73% Explorer 60% Achiever 46% Socializer 20%
Originally posted by Annex1 Stupid Death penalties are the #1 reason why I quit mmrpgs. There is nothing more frustrating than dieing because of external reasons (connection cuts out, lots of lag, someone trains a mob at you etc) and then paying a big price for it. I hated AC1s death system as it was originally, as id spend countless hours sometimes doing a massive search of an area trying to find my damned corpse. On the other hand, I totally loved DAoCs death system. You got a 5% (or less) exp penalty and a trip back to the last stone you bound to. In my opinion, nothing penalizes me more than TIME. If it takes me 30 minues to get back to where I was because I had died, then that is a big penalty for me. Thats 30 minutes of having no fun. I really like how blizzard is taking the approach to the death penalty. In WoW you will have a choice. You can lay there as a corpse and get ressurected, you can do a corpse run as a ghost back to your corpse (unlike AC1 originally, in WoW you will get an arrow showing you were your corpse is AND there are very few enemies to encounter in ghost form), or you can respawn immediately at the graveyard with an exp penalty. Choice is good, and I think WoW is going to appease a lot of people with its system. -------------------------------------- Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2
I just want to make sure you realize that ALL death penalties are TIME sinks Annex1. XP loss, takes time to regain that XP. Res sickness take time to go away. Corpse run takes time to get there.
WoW right now offers the best options, becuase it offers you the choice. Even perma death (the delete character button). And it is not permadeath if your "heir" gets your items, it is just solo twinking. Althoug I am interested in seeing what EQII has to offer.
"I disagree with mmorpgs that use xp lose as a death penalty. In PvP age of mmorpgs there shouldn't be such thing as xp lose. "
Thats why in DAoC when you died to PvP you lost no exp. This penalized players in PvE but did not penalize them in PvP, thus encouraging massive pvp fights.
Originally posted by Annex1 Thats why in DAoC when you died to PvP you lost no exp. This penalized players in PvE but did not penalize them in PvP, thus encouraging massive pvp fights. -------------------------------------- Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2
I agree. xp lose penalty is good in PvE couse without it you can die over and over again until you kill the strong creep and get xp, loot for nothing.
I am for an amount of lifes per month(weeks or days) depending on the races, a human can died more then an elf...
No other consequence, losing a life for any spend of time is bad enought, it is a very softcore permadeath thing, yet, it is not permanent! If a player died to much with his toon, he cant play that toon for an amount of time(until lifes refresh), this is VERY harsh no matter what players says(unless you play a gnome with near unlimited lifes), yet, there is no setback, no losing anything you already earned. Such a system make weakers races appealing to many players for the amount of lifes they have!
Folks that plan to play a lot will avoid death like plague, while casuals will not care at all beside for the roleplaying and success aspect. This is what you want of a death penalty system, and it limit false hardcore players(maybe like me, yet, I can play 5 toons to compensate niak niak niak) because they are ghetto and they died, they cant progress as fast.
This system would get only complains at start althought, permadeath lovers will say it is to kind, and the softs folks will complain at how rude and hard it can be...yet...a player that died all his lifes is a player WAITING for them to refresh and motivated, yes, many will curses, but they can play others toons and be more carefull about deaths next time!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think CoH had a nice death penalty. Instead of losing experience you gained debt. When you die half of your xp goes towards the debt pool until it's payed off. So if you need 1000 experience to level but you also have 1000 debt then you'd have to grind the equivilent of 2000 xp. You never lose any levels, and you can still gain levels, but it takes twice as long until debt is payed off.
Players can't reasonably discuss a penalty because players naturally want to take the path of least resistance. You have players who don't really understand game design. They simply equate easy with fun. So anything that isn't easy, isn't fun.
--------------------------------------------- I need more cow bell! Slothman's Home Tree
--------------------------------------------- I need more Cow Bell! Slothman's Home Tree
Originally posted by Slothman Players can't reasonably discuss a penalty because players naturally want to take the path of least resistance. You have players who don't really understand game design. They simply equate easy with fun. So anything that isn't easy, isn't fun.
That isnt quite true. Something that isnt easy falls into two categories: challenging and frustrating. Something that is challenging can often be quite fun. Its when games become frustrating that fun goes out the window.
Death can often be a big source of frustration, especially when it happens outside of your control. When you die, the fun stops. It is at that moment that developers must decide how much time should/must pass by before the Fun resumes. If 15 minutes pass by before you return to the area where you died and can resume having Fun, then that can be considered ok. If you have to spend hours retrieving items, corpses, running back to where you were etc, then that can be considered not ok.
Originally posted by Slothman Players can't reasonably discuss a penalty because players naturally want to take the path of least resistance. You have players who don't really understand game design. They simply equate easy with fun. So anything that isn't easy, isn't fun.
That isnt quite true. Something that isnt easy falls into two categories: challenging and frustrating. Something that is challenging can often be quite fun. Its when games become frustrating that fun goes out the window.
Death can often be a big source of frustration, especially when it happens outside of your control. When you die, the fun stops. It is at that moment that developers must decide how much time should/must pass by before the Fun resumes. If 15 minutes pass by before you return to the area where you died and can resume having Fun, then that can be considered ok. If you have to spend hours retrieving items, corpses, running back to where you were etc, then that can be considered not ok.
My point was that players naturally want the path of least resistance. When you say the "Fun Stops". That means the player no longer wants to play the game. He'd rather the fun never stopped. The natural player response to death penalties is, "why have them, I don't want the fun to stop." What is too easy or not easy enough will vary from person to person, you'll never reach any kind of consensus.
Its like playing poker and one player not wanting to play high stakes and the other player wanting to play high stakes. You can't evaluate which game of poker is better because the tolerance level varies too greatly. You have to leave those rules up to "The House". The House in this case is the developers.
--------------------------------------------- I need more cow bell! Slothman's Home Tree
--------------------------------------------- I need more Cow Bell! Slothman's Home Tree
I just think the penalty for death should be being brought back to life back at your 'house' or a bind stone.
I get annoyed at being killed, so why do i need a bigger penalty? i dont WANT to die, and if i get killed once at a specific location i am the type of person who will not just throw himself back into combat and die again.
Death penalties are there in order to prevent people doing the same thing 100 times until they finally win. But what these people do with their game time does not have an effect on me, or you. If you dont want to be able to go back to the same spot just to die again then just show some self control and dont go back.
If you think that being killed should put people off doing things that could get them killed then just dont do those things yourself, let other people do them, because what they do has no effect on you.
If you want a thrill out of combat then i do not see how you get a thrill out of avoiding a 5 minute wait, or avoiding losing your sword, or your money.
I get a thrill out of not being killed because i roleplay my characters as best i can, i empathise with them and when i am playing a game i almost AM that character.
And to those who say that people should just get better at games that isnt always possible. Some people simply arent that good, so why punish them for it? Just let them get on with playing the game to the best of their ability and you play to yours. Your paths never really have to cross.
And last point is there should be no penalty in PvP games because when i play PvP games i would say that 95% of my deaths have been when attacked by people so powerful that i cant even hit them, nevermind beat.
Basicly I am an believer in "No Risk No Fun" usualy I get quickly bored with games that don't challange me. Usualy if deaths have no set back exp/items/goal wise it hard to implement an advancement challange(exp, items and so).
But there is the problem of death thru none player influenced situation/deaths lag, bugs and such. Also "the called to death" as I call it also can be undisirable e.g. corpse recovery (item+ stats) los during long spells of lag, bugs can be realy game destroying I admit.
In my there must be some balance between these factors but low risk in the long run soon looses the interest of many players.
--- Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
--- Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
Bsherlock, I am inclined to agree with you that the penalty that is worst, but doesnt destroy gameplay, is inconvinience. The trouble is, if there is a bind stone very close to a good hunting spot, or large monster, then a player could just attack it, die, spawn and repeat, until the monster was dead. Powergamers are a problem as if there is nothing to stop them just going ahead and powering through mobs, with absolutly no worries.
I do agree about the no PvP death penalty though. Well, mostly. I think in a totally PvP game, a penalty is probably needed, but in a game like SWG, where they removed the decay on your items after a PvP death, I think a light or no penalty is best. People dont PvP enough, so this really encourages them. I know I fought more PvP fights once I knew I could just sit back and enjoy myself during a raid on enemy bases
Maybe a lesson of how to handle death could, and perhaps should be also drawn from other games, such as FPSs. For example, in Wolfenstein ET, you die, and are allowed to respawn at your teams spawn point at designated 'deployment' intervals. Here, the punishment is inconvinience - if you die before completing your job/mission, then your time up unitl that point has achieved nothing. A secondary penalty comes at the end of a round, when you are shamed by your statistics. Perhaps these ideas could be applied?
Survival should be awarded, maybe this would be a better idea? Getting benefits, which are then built up over time, or wiped when you die? Nice idea ..
-------------------------------------------
MMORPGs: Treadmills that make you fatter.
www.silkyvenom.com <-- a good site for Vanguard information
Each game is different so there is no one size fits all here but here is my view from past game experiences.
Corpse recoveries, like EQ had setup, was rediculous. Spending hours awaiting someone to summon your corpse doesn't exactly add to the fun factor and no reward is worth the risk of sitting in front of a computer for hours doing nothing. That's not a game, it's not even work, it's just LAME. Corpse recovery like WoW is acceptable.
XP loss can be fine but losing levels seems a bit harsh, especially if XP really is a grind like in Lineage 2 or EverQuest.
Permadeath would depend on how the game is structured. This would never work in games that have XP grinds or any type of required longterm building of a character. Last I checked all current MMO's take time to build a character, so count 'true' permadeath out though I'm not sure how some of you are defining this term. Will be interesting to see how Mourning actually worked this in once gold.
Item loss should only be a part of PvP and each game should be different as in some games items are easy to obtain while in others losing a main item can devistate a character and halt its ability to continue the game. Dropping equipment due to a PvE death so that any newb who did nothing to earn the item can just come along and pick it up is ignoring the reward factor of a game. Lineage 2 is a perfect example of this type of sytem and has alot of risk vs reward problems when you look at the game.
It all boils down to the individual system. Some games XP loss is acceptable but the same XP loss in another game is not. Same for item drops and corpse recoveries. There has to be a balance from top to bottom in risk vs reward and keeping the game exciting vs running your customers off.
Comments
Unlike AC1 items, someone in a cruiser/frigate does provide additional support to a fleet to be considered worthy of having around.While its firepower is much lower, a frigate isn't exactly useless either.All i'm saying is there are many people around who think they're Mr. Hotshit McBattleship and take it into combat, often uninsured and loose it (gasp) and are back to square one, eating veldspar rocks in a thorax.I for one do use battleships and expensive modules, but only if the job requires it.A fleet of frigates is much more fun to play anyway.
I would reall like the option of permadeath, theres nothing like playing with a bunch of other players that dont want to die. First of all teamwork becomes absolutely key to survival and also people bring out there true nature, if they are losing the weak will flee for their lives while the strong fight on. Much like if they were actually living the lives of their characters, and also that introduces skill into an otherwise skill-less roleplaying environment.
I agree with you on some level, Trytone, a harsh death penalty really does cause players to become more involved in teamwork and tactics. This is of course a good thing, especially for community driven games in which interaction should be promoted. But the trouble once again, with permadeath, is that a poor team, or inescapable problems like lag, could cost you it all. If you try to soften it to a merely a heavy penalty, then you just have a system that is unbearable to play, due to the inevitable, immense frustration that comes with death.
Lady of Darkness, you seem to have quite a fair amount of experience with death. You said that a middle penalty, not too hard and not too soft, would be best. What sort of penalty do you think should play into this gap? I ask because I agree with the placement of the best penalty upon the scale of punishment severity, I just cant imagine quite what would be best.
-------------------------------------------
MMORPGs: Treadmills that make you fatter.
www.silkyvenom.com <-- a good site for Vanguard information
While I wouldn't play a game with perma death, I do believe death should have a real sting to it. Otherwise death means nothing, and you just don't get that same feeling of fear in a risky situation.
The people that hate the death penalties the most are the ones that die the most. MMORPG's aren't exactly difficult. Learn to not suck and quit whining, i love harsh penalties, but definitely no perma-death because people CAN die without it being their fault.
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
I just want to make sure you realize that ALL death penalties are TIME sinks Annex1. XP loss, takes time to regain that XP. Res sickness take time to go away. Corpse run takes time to get there.
WoW right now offers the best options, becuase it offers you the choice. Even perma death (the delete character button). And it is not permadeath if your "heir" gets your items, it is just solo twinking. Althoug I am interested in seeing what EQII has to offer.
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: WoW, GW
Heres one for all you religious people.
Doesn't your "God" believe in the death penalty?
Lod234 was killed by God.
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: WoW, GW
"I disagree with mmorpgs that use xp lose as a death penalty. In PvP age of mmorpgs there shouldn't be such thing as xp lose. "
Thats why in DAoC when you died to PvP you lost no exp. This penalized players in PvE but did not penalize them in PvP, thus encouraging massive pvp fights.
--------------------------------------
Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG
Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2
I agree. xp lose penalty is good in PvE couse without it you can die over and over again until you kill the strong creep and get xp, loot for nothing.
In PvP you should loose item(s) not xp.
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: WoW, GW
After some thinking myself...
I am for an amount of lifes per month(weeks or days) depending on the races, a human can died more then an elf...
No other consequence, losing a life for any spend of time is bad enought, it is a very softcore permadeath thing, yet, it is not permanent! If a player died to much with his toon, he cant play that toon for an amount of time(until lifes refresh), this is VERY harsh no matter what players says(unless you play a gnome with near unlimited lifes), yet, there is no setback, no losing anything you already earned. Such a system make weakers races appealing to many players for the amount of lifes they have!
Folks that plan to play a lot will avoid death like plague, while casuals will not care at all beside for the roleplaying and success aspect. This is what you want of a death penalty system, and it limit false hardcore players(maybe like me, yet, I can play 5 toons to compensate niak niak niak) because they are ghetto and they died, they cant progress as fast.
This system would get only complains at start althought, permadeath lovers will say it is to kind, and the softs folks will complain at how rude and hard it can be...yet...a player that died all his lifes is a player WAITING for them to refresh and motivated, yes, many will curses, but they can play others toons and be more carefull about deaths next time!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Players can't reasonably discuss a penalty because players naturally want to take the path of least resistance. You have players who don't really understand game design. They simply equate easy with fun. So anything that isn't easy, isn't fun.
---------------------------------------------
I need more cow bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
---------------------------------------------
I need more Cow Bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
That isnt quite true. Something that isnt easy falls into two categories: challenging and frustrating. Something that is challenging can often be quite fun. Its when games become frustrating that fun goes out the window.
Death can often be a big source of frustration, especially when it happens outside of your control. When you die, the fun stops. It is at that moment that developers must decide how much time should/must pass by before the Fun resumes. If 15 minutes pass by before you return to the area where you died and can resume having Fun, then that can be considered ok. If you have to spend hours retrieving items, corpses, running back to where you were etc, then that can be considered not ok.
--------------------------------------
Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG
Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2
That isnt quite true. Something that isnt easy falls into two categories: challenging and frustrating. Something that is challenging can often be quite fun. Its when games become frustrating that fun goes out the window.
Death can often be a big source of frustration, especially when it happens outside of your control. When you die, the fun stops. It is at that moment that developers must decide how much time should/must pass by before the Fun resumes. If 15 minutes pass by before you return to the area where you died and can resume having Fun, then that can be considered ok. If you have to spend hours retrieving items, corpses, running back to where you were etc, then that can be considered not ok.
My point was that players naturally want the path of least resistance. When you say the "Fun Stops". That means the player no longer wants to play the game. He'd rather the fun never stopped. The natural player response to death penalties is, "why have them, I don't want the fun to stop." What is too easy or not easy enough will vary from person to person, you'll never reach any kind of consensus.
Its like playing poker and one player not wanting to play high stakes and the other player wanting to play high stakes. You can't evaluate which game of poker is better because the tolerance level varies too greatly. You have to leave those rules up to "The House". The House in this case is the developers.
---------------------------------------------
I need more cow bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
---------------------------------------------
I need more Cow Bell!
Slothman's Home Tree
I just think the penalty for death should be being brought back to life back at your 'house' or a bind stone.
I get annoyed at being killed, so why do i need a bigger penalty? i dont WANT to die, and if i get killed once at a specific location i am the type of person who will not just throw himself back into combat and die again.
Death penalties are there in order to prevent people doing the same thing 100 times until they finally win. But what these people do with their game time does not have an effect on me, or you. If you dont want to be able to go back to the same spot just to die again then just show some self control and dont go back.
If you think that being killed should put people off doing things that could get them killed then just dont do those things yourself, let other people do them, because what they do has no effect on you.
If you want a thrill out of combat then i do not see how you get a thrill out of avoiding a 5 minute wait, or avoiding losing your sword, or your money.
I get a thrill out of not being killed because i roleplay my characters as best i can, i empathise with them and when i am playing a game i almost AM that character.
And to those who say that people should just get better at games that isnt always possible. Some people simply arent that good, so why punish them for it? Just let them get on with playing the game to the best of their ability and you play to yours. Your paths never really have to cross.
And last point is there should be no penalty in PvP games because when i play PvP games i would say that 95% of my deaths have been when attacked by people so powerful that i cant even hit them, nevermind beat.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I believe that surviaval should be rewarded.
Basicly I am an believer in "No Risk No Fun" usualy I get quickly bored with games that don't challange me. Usualy if deaths have no set back exp/items/goal wise it hard to implement an advancement challange(exp, items and so).
But there is the problem of death thru none player influenced situation/deaths lag, bugs and such. Also "the called to death" as I call it also can be undisirable e.g. corpse recovery (item+ stats) los during long spells of lag, bugs can be realy game destroying I admit.
In my there must be some balance between these factors but low risk in the long run soon looses the interest of many players.
---
Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
---
Light laughter and sweet water to you fellow adventures.
Bsherlock, I am inclined to agree with you that the penalty that is worst, but doesnt destroy gameplay, is inconvinience. The trouble is, if there is a bind stone very close to a good hunting spot, or large monster, then a player could just attack it, die, spawn and repeat, until the monster was dead. Powergamers are a problem as if there is nothing to stop them just going ahead and powering through mobs, with absolutly no worries.
I do agree about the no PvP death penalty though. Well, mostly. I think in a totally PvP game, a penalty is probably needed, but in a game like SWG, where they removed the decay on your items after a PvP death, I think a light or no penalty is best. People dont PvP enough, so this really encourages them. I know I fought more PvP fights once I knew I could just sit back and enjoy myself during a raid on enemy bases
Maybe a lesson of how to handle death could, and perhaps should be also drawn from other games, such as FPSs. For example, in Wolfenstein ET, you die, and are allowed to respawn at your teams spawn point at designated 'deployment' intervals. Here, the punishment is inconvinience - if you die before completing your job/mission, then your time up unitl that point has achieved nothing. A secondary penalty comes at the end of a round, when you are shamed by your statistics. Perhaps these ideas could be applied?
Survival should be awarded, maybe this would be a better idea? Getting benefits, which are then built up over time, or wiped when you die? Nice idea ..
-------------------------------------------
MMORPGs: Treadmills that make you fatter.
www.silkyvenom.com <-- a good site for Vanguard information
Each game is different so there is no one size fits all here but here is my view from past game experiences.
Corpse recoveries, like EQ had setup, was rediculous. Spending hours awaiting someone to summon your corpse doesn't exactly add to the fun factor and no reward is worth the risk of sitting in front of a computer for hours doing nothing. That's not a game, it's not even work, it's just LAME. Corpse recovery like WoW is acceptable.
XP loss can be fine but losing levels seems a bit harsh, especially if XP really is a grind like in Lineage 2 or EverQuest.
Permadeath would depend on how the game is structured. This would never work in games that have XP grinds or any type of required longterm building of a character. Last I checked all current MMO's take time to build a character, so count 'true' permadeath out though I'm not sure how some of you are defining this term. Will be interesting to see how Mourning actually worked this in once gold.
Item loss should only be a part of PvP and each game should be different as in some games items are easy to obtain while in others losing a main item can devistate a character and halt its ability to continue the game. Dropping equipment due to a PvE death so that any newb who did nothing to earn the item can just come along and pick it up is ignoring the reward factor of a game. Lineage 2 is a perfect example of this type of sytem and has alot of risk vs reward problems when you look at the game.
It all boils down to the individual system. Some games XP loss is acceptable but the same XP loss in another game is not. Same for item drops and corpse recoveries. There has to be a balance from top to bottom in risk vs reward and keeping the game exciting vs running your customers off.