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Dynamic MMO- a dreamers dream
jasco20
Member Posts: 46
Wouldn't it be grand if "they" found a way to make a truly dynamic, interactive MMO that had regular and surprising new twists and turns, upset the status quo, GM created and sponsored events?
I really long for the day when the demonic horde overruns stormwind and Elwynn forest, burns it to the ground and changes the face of the game forever. It's going to be great for the forces of the alliance to take back Duskwood and The Redridge Mountains and build the new stronghold on the hill above Lakeshire.
Nearly a decade ago I was minding my own business on the docks in the Oasis in Everquest. Suddenly, a Sand Giants waltzed through the area. And then another showed up. Laid waste to everything and scattered the puny masses to the wind, those that lived. This was not an NPC... it was a GM choreographing a spontaneous zone wide event. It became the talk of the town for weeks and by an overwhelming margin, the players loved it and begged for more.
Unpredictability.
A little chaos.
Terror unleashed, gotta think on my feet, no planning, no coordinating. Just panic and action!
<sigh> how great it would be for really dynamic content to run amuck in our stale, aging MMO's.
What zone would you like to see changed forever? What radical shift would you love to be surprised by?
Why doesn't it happen already?
Comments
Use to really enjoy those kinds of events in AC back before it became a bot fest
Ryzom had this sometimes.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
I remember stuff like this happening all the time in Everquest back in the day! I had my troll shadowknight (Gryzlnad) in Estate of Unrest on the Tallon Zek (if I remember correctly) server and the GM's came out of the depths of the mansion there attacking players and stuff...such sweet sarrow when I quit that game.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
They could easily make an MMO as u described in OP, but they won't cause everyone wants to make a WoW successful game and they think they have to copy everything WoW does to be a success. Blah, make something new and unique and stop trying to copy everyone else hoping for an overnight success. Its not gonna happen.
There are tons of great ideas thats never been touched before, and I don't understand why nobody will add them to their game. I'm currently designing a 2D MMO and have this list of at least 15 things over the years I've been playing MMOs thats hasn't been done and I think would be great to do. I'm doing my best to incorporate them into a working design atm and quite a few of them are a success.
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
ok, let's make a LIST!!
here's one, i'd like to see quests involving puzzles that are mind boggling, e.g., like going through a set of stairs that go round, diagonally or even inverted till you get to the other end.
Great idea, but after meeting the WoW community that couldn't even read the text provided for every quest that told u exactly what to do...u really think they would be able to figure this out...!
...and ultimately if the puzzle didn't change and be radically different for every player...all there would be is shouting, whats the answer, how do I do this, Help me, blah blah blah all day until they get the answer.
Course maybe if they just did like FFXI and made the game challenging and harsh enough, adding this kinda stuff all the tards would run away crying like they already did.
Yeah I'm in rant mode all over the place.....hehe
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
My friends and I have often discussed what is stopping Blizzard from doing these sorts of things?
They're making millions and now billions of dollars hand over fist. It seems they would have a huge amount to be gained by putting a team of dynamic content GM's in place that would do these sorts of things. I know it messes with players status quo, but some of the greatest memories I have in EQ are when these sorts unscripted events took place.
Of course there is cost involved, but it has to be something more than money that is stopping big MMO producers from loosening the reigns a bit, right?
What gives?
WoW is never going to be like that as it was designed for people that have never played a MMORPG before. I think Blizzard's next MMORPG will add more complex stuff as the current fan base will be use to the basic mmorpg that they will want something different.
Great idea, but after meeting the WoW community that couldn't even read the text provided for every quest that told u exactly what to do...u really think they would be able to figure this out...!
The WoW crowd is pretty much the same then other MMO crowd. The reason why they don't bother to read quest is because the game is selling itself as a fast food MMO, so you don't expect anything but a shallow/fast consumption experience when you play it.
If you would have a game that set up a different mind set, you would be surprised at how many of those same people you believe who can't read, would like your puzzle game. Because like most of us: We're not all carebears, griefer or hardcore all the time. Sometimes you feel like eating junk, and some other times you want fine cuisine. The problem right now is that there are only different version of the most popular McDonald MMO, so instead of attempting to become the master of Pastas or Grill, they keep popping burger bars all over the place.
WoW and McDonald are the leading fast food product in their domain. Nobody will ever replace it.
There is plenty of room now for a different gastronomy and a good portion of the MMO player base will at least try it if it's done well. After that, who knows... Once you've tasted great and healthy food, it's hard to return to big macs. We just need to be more exposed to it for our taste buds to evolve.
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
WurmOnline changes itself pretty often. if you leave for a couple of months there will be new forests and some others missing, towns will be gone/moved, and even new towns will be around.
this happens by itself in player controled worlds, I fail to see why developers would need to plan out a few dozen events every month when the players are perfectly capable of doing it themselves when you give them the ability to choose their own 'fate'. not to mention planned events are a total farce, you have developers forcing the story that they want even if the players ended up doing something that would trigger a different story.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I bet here are the reasons why this is never done in mass.
1) cost effectiveness.
If you want GM to go in and dynamically changing events, it is very very costly because one GM essentially can only serve the people he interacted with .. so may be in the hundreds. The same person, who scripted some new content and release to all the servers can affect millions. So yes, Blizzard probably *can* afford it but it still does not make good business sense when the same amount of resources can be used to service millions.
2) lost of control and unforeseeable consequences
I bet Blizzard is extremely worried about any game changing issue that they cannot predict and creates problem (like that virus thingie). So they would test and test again all their content before they are released. So spontaneous events are out.
3) market is small
I don't think there are enough people want it enough to warrant spending significant resources on this. If all the players are happy with what you got right now, why not just produce more expansion? Why run the risk of changing the business model?
4) People don't like the unknown
Remember that people are looking for ENTERTAINMENT in their games. Most people go onto websites to find out how to do quests anyway. You really don't want lots of people suddenly lose the ability to do that.
3 servers? you can easily hire 3 GMs and train them, code the events, and have fun with it.
300 servers? Now you've got a bit of a problem...
You can't have live events on this server but not that one, the GMs all have to be trained and run the event in the "same" ish kind of way so that everyone has a good time.
Trying to do that on 300+ servers, worldwide, etc. is no small task.
It's legistics. Plain and simple.
You could create code to make random game-system run events, but then they lack the "human" feeling of having a GM at the controls.
No matter how random, random is always a matching of variables, and each variable is predefined. Only through real human interaction (i.e. GMs) can you get this kind of dynamic event.
But, if you own a multibillion dollar company and want to give it a try, go ahead, I'd love to participate. But unless you do, you have no idea how much work it'd be for the company to do these things on a regular basis.
Absolutely true on all accounts, Heerobya. The cost for a company like WoW to implement this would be likely be astonomical. And since their business model doesn't depend on dynamic human content, they might stand to loose more revenue than they gain.
I suppose dynamic human created content would have to be worked into the business model and gameplay mechanics from the outset, but what a blast it would be!
In EQ2, I wanted to the #*$# gnolls completely overrun Qeynos... to be able to join with the guard in the battle... to die... to get wiped... to rez and rejoin the battle and ultimately kick the gnolls out. To see buildings burn... and then to watch over the coming weeks, the rebuilding efforts. And finally to join the guard on a raid of Blackburough. That would have been sweet.
How cool would it be to walk out the gates of Ironforge to be met by an onslaught of trolls? The catapults actively blasting away? Too see the entire playerbase in Ironforge come out to meet them in battle... lest they make it through the gates and begin attacking the innocent populace of Ironforge, looting, pillaging, plundering the shops and shop keepers.
Just dreaming...
Actual as described in the above 2 posts, this could very easily be done and in the same way that most guilds function in all MMOs. Blizzard just need to set aside a separate server just for live events then set up dates for planned live content and it be based on a 1st come, 1st sign up basis!
Then the GMs that run the event either transfer all ppl that signed up for the event to this event server for the day, or do a char copy for everyone invloved. When the event day starts, everyone that signed up now has a 1 day access to this server and can come and go as they want. However they can't use their char on their original server for those 24 hrs.
After its over everyone is then returned to their original server with whatever they earned in the event or the event server copy is added to their original char/server. Problem solved and this could be done maybe 2-4 times a month.
This event server would also be entirely destructable for the event for maximum entertainment!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Either the demand of the events are too high that the server won't be able to handle it, or if this ONE server can handle it, the demand will be too low (WOW has hundreds of servers, so this will be like <1%) and there is no point doing it.
Oh I'd love it... Absolutely love it...
And one day it may be a reality. When we can program smart enough A.I. to make their own complex decisions and strategies... A.I. smart enough to start a war...
But that's also kind of scary isn't it?
I think it would be a damn good idea to add a platforming system, maybe not a very complicated one, but I hate that when I'm going into a giant tower thats a few thousand years old, it is in perfect shape. THere should be giant gaps in the staircase, walls that you need to climb, skills that would make these things easier for certain players. And in combat if they had places you could platform to in fighting, that would be amazing.
Still, the best idea for an mmo to me, would be to go .hack style and create The World, VR and all.
Oh I'd love it... Absolutely love it...
And one day it may be a reality. When we can program smart enough A.I. to make their own complex decisions and strategies... A.I. smart enough to start a war...
But that's also kind of scary isn't it?
well if you have AIs that smart, they would want to come out to our world and dominate us ....
Absolutely true on all accounts, Heerobya. The cost for a company like WoW to implement this would be likely be astonomical. And since their business model doesn't depend on dynamic human content, they might stand to loose more revenue than they gain.
I suppose dynamic human created content would have to be worked into the business model and gameplay mechanics from the outset, but what a blast it would be!
In EQ2, I wanted to the #*$# gnolls completely overrun Qeynos... to be able to join with the guard in the battle... to die... to get wiped... to rez and rejoin the battle and ultimately kick the gnolls out. To see buildings burn... and then to watch over the coming weeks, the rebuilding efforts. And finally to join the guard on a raid of Blackburough. That would have been sweet.
How cool would it be to walk out the gates of Ironforge to be met by an onslaught of trolls? The catapults actively blasting away? Too see the entire playerbase in Ironforge come out to meet them in battle... lest they make it through the gates and begin attacking the innocent populace of Ironforge, looting, pillaging, plundering the shops and shop keepers.
Just dreaming...
sounds like you want to play WAR
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
The difficulty of implementing interactivity into a game world meant to be static (like WoW) would be prohibitive. Like people mentioned, the cost of hiring GMs to control these events for every server would be far too high.
It'd be much easier if a game were designed from the ground with interactive elements - like the ability for players to affect the world, or a NPC/AI system that allows for larger and more complex NPC interactions with players autonomously.
In a "sandbox" game where players' actions can influence the world, the players can become the content. UO/EVE/Shadowbane/Darkfall. Players build cities, control territory, form the economy, and so forth. The players, by default, make the world dynamic.
The way NPCs are handled, too, can make it easier for developers to code dynamic events. Instead of the standard static placed mob spawns, a game could try to handle monsters intelligently. 5 gnolls do not always spawn in the exact same pattern at the exact same coordinates, and just stand there until "aggroed" by adventurers. A group of gnolls could set up a camp at an arbitrary location, and proceed to expand, harvesting resources and increasing in numbers and strength. They would actively patrol the area and respond to threats intelligently, instead of dumbly standing there waiting to be "pulled". They'd periodically raid settlements. If they grew strong enough, maybe a leader among them would arise and unite other camps and launch a campaign. When the heroes finally wiped them out, they'd be gone.
Until the game respawned them in another place. The game could have an algorithm to place new mobs or camps of mobs in new remote locations. GMs can also surreptitously spawn a new camp, or increase the strength of an existing camp if they saw fit. Want to stage an invasion of Goldshire (without waiting for one to occur naturally)? Spawn a few gnoll camps in the woods to the south. Spawn few leaders among them. Create a few extra resources for them if you want them to be a little more dangerous. No need for GMs to control each gnoll, or even control anything at all. Fire and forget.
This, of course, would require more complex AI than games currently have. It's not impossible - such AI exists in single player games. But to implement it on a large scale would cost additional development time and more powerful hardware.
But in theory, it could work (unlike hiring human operators to control all dynamic events). You don't need true artificial intelligence; the limited AI similar to those in single player games can mimic basic behavoir well enough.
No one has even remotely be successful to generate content by an algorithm. There are attempts such as randomly generated dungeons. Most of those are "boring" without a human touch. The most successful cases are trees and vegetation generation algorithms.
I would highly suspicious of using players to generate content too. You have to set up the rules so that a) they have incentive to do so, and b) the content won't be crap. There are VERY few examples (i think Eve may be counted as one, and may be Second Life) that this is successful.
It is much more reliable to have an experienced, professional team to general x amount of content that can be consumed in y months and sell it as that.
No one has even remotely be successful to generate content by an algorithm. There are attempts such as randomly generated dungeons. Most of those are "boring" without a human touch. The most successful cases are trees and vegetation generation algorithms.
I'm talking about "content" in the broader sense of the word. You're thinking of environments, dungeons, quests, etc.
I'm only talking about dynamically generated NPCs, not environments. Refer to my example with the gnolls in Goldshire. The developers still construct Elwynn Forest. Only now the inhabitants have realistic free reign. Once the framework for such a system is in place, the content (dynamic camps of mobs) is generated autonomously. Or it would be easy for a GM to influence it in a certain way without having to directly control the events.
The difficulty is scaling this level of AI and complexity and implementing in an MMO environment. We already see this kind of thing in single player RTS games, but implementing even a simplified version would be quite a challenge in an MMO.
I would highly suspicious of using players to generate content too. You have to set up the rules so that a) they have incentive to do so, and b) the content won't be crap. There are VERY few examples (i think Eve may be counted as one, and may be Second Life) that this is successful.
It is much more reliable to have an experienced, professional team to general x amount of content that can be consumed in y months and sell it as that.
EVE is exactly what I'm talking about, by allowing players to things like build space stations with all the functionality of an NPC city. Shadowbane is another example; there is NO PVE whatsoever, and the game was designed to have player generated "content" fill in the world.
Second Life is a bad example (IMO I don't even consider it a "game" in the strictest sense of the word). SL is fine for a "social" sim game, but for an MMO it gives people far too much freedom for an actual game.
I don't believe Shadowbane's approach is the best one, but a combination of traditional developer created content and dynamic player generated "content" is the way to go. The developers still have to create the zone, the environment, etc. But if players have the ability to influence and affect the environment, it's a constantly new experience and the content does not have to be "consumed".
For example, in WoW the developers built Westfall as a level 11-20 zone. Its purpose is to level up and gear out levels 11-20. Once players have "beaten" the static content, the zone is virtually useless to them and they require a new zone. The developers then built Duskwood to satisfy that need, all the way to EPL, Burning Steppes, etc. Eventually, those too will be consumed, necessitating an expansion pack, where the same thing is repeated. Not only is this put pressure on the developer to constantly create new zones, new art, new monsters, new lore, new phat lootz... but it's damn boring. And worse, it begets "grinding" as a necessity.
How many times has CCP had to create new star systems? How often do Valve or Bungie release new CS or Halo maps? What these games have in common is, the "content", the "game experience", comes from the interactions with other players within the game environment - not the static game environment itself. People are content to play in Dust 2 or Blood Gulch endlessly, because the combat is the attraction, not one-shot quests. Likewise in EVE. The "content" is the territorial control, the economy, the politics, and the space combat. The developers only had to create the backdrop for that.
It does not matter what kind of content we are talking about. As you have also said, even for NPC AI, no one has successful generated that yet. The technology is simply not here yet.
Player generated content (like the conflict in Eve) can be suitable for only some context. You can have players have a war .. but you cannot have players build an interesting dungeon (or at least very unlikely). Then it is entirely up to the audience of what kind of content they want to consume.
I don't see the slow-generation of content as a problem. It is just a fact of life. When you finish consuming the content of game A, you move onto game B. There is no reason why one has to stick with game A for ever.
This applies to almost every kind of entertainment. Authors write novels slower than one can read them. Producers made movies & tv shows slower than one can watch them. There is no surprise that game developers make games slower than one can finish them. It happens with SP games and it happens with MMO. However, there are many authors, movie/tv producers & game developers concurrently making lots of entertainment. You just have to know when to go to the next one. This model works for a long time and I don't see why it won't work for another long while in the future.
Keyword, "yet." I love that word because it implies it can be done. So, I'm going to suggest this "yet" type of technology is truly what NEXT-GEN, dynamic MMO dev should be about.
"... but you cannot have players build an interesting dungeon." I don't buy it. With the right tools and underlying systems I believe, based on the success of games like Neverwinter Nights, CounterStrike, pretty much any game that can be modded, that the player community is an outstanding source of creativity. The problem to be tackled is accessible tools that don't require a degree in programming and then a system that allows for real-world testing of player generated content such that the crap gets sifted out and only the best player generated content makes it into the game.
Place two player-generated dungeons that meet minimum standard requirements in a zone and give a massive playerbase access to both. After enough play time has passed, the player stats, play time, player feedback and usage of the dungeon will reveal which content is better. Then send the looser back for further development and promote the winner to the next split test against another dungeon. Provide a player feedback system that goes right to the dev team for that content and what you end up with is a self-educating system that develops great content makers.
Of course this process hinges on tools that give the player access to existing art assets so that look and feel is consistent in the game.
Walking or running everywhere, or riding wildlife was once a fact of life. Starting a fire and making light was once a very tedious process and a fact of life. Communicating with family across a continent via snail mail was once a fact of life. Improvement happens. :-)
And when game developers create tools for the player-base to generate content, that's what the playerbase does. I see nothing in MMO's that is so complex that users cannot create content that slips nicely over the top of existing engine and logic systems. It is already being done on a single player and multiplayer gaming level; I imagine it will be the logical step forward for MMO's and I can't wait for the day.
Can't you imagine for a moment having the point and click ability to generate a zone- the geography, choosing a climate base, adding in art assets, generating a forest, drawing in a trail system, generating forests and foliage, setting up MOB camps and developing quests, strategically building a small village... or go with AoC's pattern and define where in the zone a village can be built, but leave it up to the player base at large to gather the resources, buy the land and start building a village/town/city. If the town city is abandoned, AI takes over and the buildings degenerate, the NPC's leave and 'nature' reclaims the land, now you have a set of ruins and wandering wildlife/mobs running amuck through the area. It's Artificial intelligence combined with player generated content. Perhaps if a player generated zone/content goes completely dead, it is locked out entirely and removed from the game. Based on other games in operation or that have come and gone because of poor implementation, the tech is there. Just hasn't been done "right".... YET. Did I mention I love that word, "Yet?"
That's exactly what I said. Nobody has done it yet in an MMO. But the point is, it's theoretically possible (more advanced AI exists in single player games, like RTS) and its not inherently impractical like hiring armies of GMs to manually control events.
That's the type of content I'm talking about - player interaction, not dungeons. I agree that players can't be relied upon to create "dungeons". But if the game is designed around it, players can create cities, economies, battlegrounds - and participation in these dynamic player run "contents" are far more interactive and rewarding than many developer implemented contents. (Compare - real world battles which actively influence the game in EVE vs. static battlegrounds in WoW)
That's if you want to passively play a game like reading a book or watching a movie.
This goes back to the "sandbox or roller coaster" comparisons, where you can have a game on rails where players are "guided" through finite content. Or you can have an open ended game where the players are the content. This model is not often used in current MMOs, but it's the theory behind multiplayer components of SP games.
You can beat the Halo campaign in hours, but spend months beating each other up on Live. Counterstrike has no SP component to begin with, and people have been playing it for years. The players are the content, the fighting is the content; Dust 2 and Hang em High are only backdrops.
The "object" of a game like WoW is to gain levels, acquire gear, complete quests, and so forth. I agree, this type of content cannot be player generated.
But if the "object" of the game is to kill each other, players by definition become the content.
Edit-
To clarify, when I refer to "player generated content" I'm certainly not refering to players doing the developers' jobs. I'm talking about systems in which, through the natural course of play, players' actions become content for themselves.
This is not giving players world-designing tools and telling them to build a dungeon. This is giving players the in-game ability to build their own cities - which, consequently, can effectively become a "dungeon" for other players. Just for one example.