The human brain needs simplistic versions of the world and classifies units of information. If one game was good and yet I am not playing it anymore, then what I am doing must be better. The human brain is not very complex.
Wow, there is a pessimistic look at humans and their brains. I can't figure out if you’re speaking metaphorically or literally about the human brain. Brains are very, very complex, people on the other hand can be simple.
Actually, I am speaking literally. The human brain isn't all that complex. It is about as complex as we can understand, but that is because we are using a very flawed tool to try and understand thing i.e. that quite simple brain.
The brain does about 1017th calculations per second. In under ten years, computers will blow past that level with the speed of an Indy car passing a homelss person pushing a shopping cart. From that point on it will all be about writing the software structure to create a "thinking" system. We will be obsolete in the creativity department.
People behave in very predictable ways because we have very limited responces to stimuli. We are not even far from automotons built on the genetic traits we are born with. (One of the reasons why profiling people through genometrics is going to be a very dangerous but inevitable step for the human race)
We tend to live in a dream world of mostly paradolia, inference and reconstructed memory. We are about as good as it gets, but that isn't really all that impressive
But anyway, that was off topic. What were we saying... oh yeah. WoW Rulez! or something
I totally agree though that "Old School" games were all about the Fear Factor of risk and reward! SO TRUE, GOOD POINT! I remember being afraid to go certain place in Asheron's Call because #1 I could get Debt Penality or #2 I could Die and not be able to get back to my body or #3 I could get in to the vicious cycle of body recovery deaths that would wipe me out completely.
In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.
Devs, are you listening? Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Well, while the brain conversation is a lot more interesting, I will also attempt to stay on topic by discussing the issue at hand.
I'll address your comment "
"In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.
Devs, are you listening? Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please. "
The problem as I see it is fairly simple, game structure and the way players earn money is all wrong. My soulution to this problem is pretty complex (more long than complex, but I have to explain the whole thing for it to make sense) and frankly, is for the time being, secret.
Moving on, right now players spend months to achieve whatever goals they set for themselves, but players always (almost anyway) judge their achievements relitive to other players. All achievements take time, after all that is the only real comodity a player has, time. Thus any penalty that causes a player to redo something s/he has already done only matters if what it is that has to be re-done is less enjoyable.
Think about it this way. If you like to shoot hoops and your coach tells you every time you miss three shots in a row in a game you have to run 10 laps around the gym. Now if you hate to run you might not play hoops even though you enjoy it.
If on the other hand your coach said that missing 3 in a row means that you have to stand at the foul line and take 100 shots. Both take time, both pull you out of the game, but shooting 100 shots might be fun, where as running laps is something you might hate.
Most players enjoy fighting NPC's, but after a while it becomes something we all know as the "grind". The penelty of death is often, "more of the the grind". It all goes back to where new wealth in the game comes from and how developers and game designers work to keep these issues in check.
I dont believe it is the end game of WoW that people make most of these statements about, At least it isnt for me. I dont like WoW because levels 1-50 are a no challenge speed fest so you can get to the end game. Why anyone would make a game that everyone can breeze through 50 levels compeletely solo only to get to end game and have to do large group raids is beyond me (not getting into the PVP aspect of end game) And besides EQ and DAOC most of the games you listed are not that much different from WoW in this reguard.
I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out.
I support quick lvling on MMO's because a game is not supposed to be a part time job it's supposed to be a game that you can connect for an hour a be able to lvl up or complete a couple of quests and getting near to lvl up. I hated MMO's that everything is a goddamn job like FFXI some might say; "Ah but the fact that is hard the acomplishment feels great." but sincerely I think I prefer spend time in the real world and accomplish something on my real life than on a pixelated game.
I love MMO's but most companies have to stick with the casual gamer philosophy.
Keeping on topic most of those games that you listed are great games. IMO i didnt like EQ and DAOC becuase everything when i played them took too much time.
VSOH I played the beta and enjoyed it but i dont know about the release version.
I loved LoTRO its fun and theres no ganking what so ever. It is the roleplayer's paradise not that everyon that plays is a role player but it is a solid game and its fun as hell.
EQ2 is very fun one of the best mmos i've played but the problem with this game is that it has so many loading screens that pisses me off.
And finally WoW well it's my favorite mmo of all time played it since release til last month. For me it is one of the greatest mmos ever made its not perfect but is very fun to play.
If you want something diferent try Tabula Rasa is a great game and unique.
I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out.
I support quick lvling on MMO's because a game is not supposed to be a part time job it's supposed to be a game that you can connect for an hour a be able to lvl up or complete a couple of quests and getting near to lvl up. I hated MMO's that everything is a goddamn job like FFXI some might say; "Ah but the fact that is hard the acomplishment feels great." but sincerely I think I prefer spend time in the real world and accomplish something on my real life than on a pixelated game. I love MMO's but most companies have to stick with the casual gamer philosophy. Keeping on topic most of those games that you listed are great games. IMO i didnt like EQ and DAOC becuase everything when i played them took too much time. VSOH I played the beta and enjoyed it but i dont know about the release version. I loved LoTRO its fun and theres no ganking what so ever. It is the roleplayer's paradise not that everyon that plays is a role player but it is a solid game and its fun as hell. EQ2 is very fun one of the best mmos i've played but the problem with this game is that it has so many loading screens that pisses me off. And finally WoW well it's my favorite mmo of all time played it since release til last month. For me it is one of the greatest mmos ever made its not perfect but is very fun to play. If you want something diferent try Tabula Rasa is a great game and unique.
You said "I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out. "
What is the goal of an MMO? Is it to level? Is it to get stuff you need faster? If so, can someone please explain to me how in an age where processors can handle almost 60 billion instructions per second, how we have evolved from Zelda?
MMO's have become nothing more than playing an advanced version of Zelda, but we play together.
I think that developers have totally lost sight of the fact that MMORPG's are social games, both positive and negative social aspects should be included. What most games are are Zelda style games that never end. This is accomplished through the expansions that the poster mentions. All exspasions are are a way to redefine wealth in the system by making what is already there obsolete.
I think it's pathetic.
Introduce the human element. I don't want to kill a dragon with 500.000 hit points, any player worth his salt with the same number of hit points (or even close) is a much bigger challenge to fight and a greater accomplishment when you win than any AI generated monster. Kill 500 dragons a month or 500 players and see which brings you more respect. Yes you could be despised, but that is just respect rapped in dislike.
The problem is developers haven't figured out how to entrust players to guard the games wealth, if they ask nice I'll tell them
Ok I never played EQ2, I played EQ1 so I'll compare that to WoW.
In EQ1 the challenge was social.
In WoW the challenge is gameplay.
In EQ1 past around level 15 you could not do ANYTHING without a group (except certain classes like Necro could solo like a mofo)
In WoW you can solo to 70 no prob.
In EQ1 there were no battlegrounds, you either rolled on a PvP server or you type /duel
In WoW you can either roll on a pvp server, or go to arena, or /duel, or /pvp flag yourself, or battlegrounds
In EQ1 if you died you lose exp, also you have to ask someone for a SoW and run back to your corpse, where you might die again and again and again dragging it out of whatever cave you died in.
In WoW if you die you have spend cash for repair. If your body is somewhere unrecoverable you use a soul healer and take a 10 minute penalty.
In EQ1 to travel from 1 continent to another, could take like 2 hours.
In WoW travel from Ungoro to lets say the Outlands portal in Blasted Lands on boat/bird is about 15 minutes.
In a way you COULD say Wow is "easier" but I dont think thats the correct word.
What most people call "difficulty" in EQ1 was essentially artificial timewasters, to make you wait longer, level slower, take longer to do everything.
It wasn't actual CONTENT, it wasn't that there was more to do and more to experience, no it was the same amount of content as WoW or even maybe less, it just took LONGER to get anything done, everything took artificially longer to do, so people felt they had an "investment" in the game, they were no longer having fun but after spending 2 years building up your character, people didnt want to quit, even though they were not having any fun at all.
The success of WoW is a wakeup call to the industry to cut out the GARBAGE in their games, the artificial TIME WASTERS.
In a way WoW ruined it for all the other companies.
Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters.
We want the epicness without the waste.
We want the upsides without the downsides.
Dont tell me it can't be done, Mr MMO company, WoW proved that it COULD be done.
Sure now that its 3-4 years old, you can say "ppl solo to 50 before they play" but people didn't used to do that when *I* started playing, they only do that now because they have 7 alts and they've already seen all the content.
People say "its boring at 70" you know why? Because 1-70 was such an awesome ride the first time, that they want MORE.
But alas nobody can WRITE content faster than you can READ it, so once you get to 70 the ride is over and all thats left is grind.
One thing is for damn sure.
I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.
Ok I never played EQ2, I played EQ1 so I'll compare that to WoW. In EQ1 the challenge was social. In WoW the challenge is gameplay. In EQ1 past around level 15 you could not do ANYTHING without a group (except certain classes like Necro could solo like a mofo) In WoW you can solo to 70 no prob. In EQ1 there were no battlegrounds, you either rolled on a PvP server or you type /duel In WoW you can either roll on a pvp server, or go to arena, or /duel, or /pvp flag yourself, or battlegrounds In EQ1 if you died you lose exp, also you have to ask someone for a SoW and run back to your corpse, where you might die again and again and again dragging it out of whatever cave you died in. In WoW if you die you have spend cash for repair. If your body is somewhere unrecoverable you use a soul healer and take a 10 minute penalty. In EQ1 to travel from 1 continent to another, could take like 2 hours. In WoW travel from Ungoro to lets say the Outlands portal in Blasted Lands on boat/bird is about 15 minutes. In a way you COULD say Wow is "easier" but I dont think thats the correct word. What most people call "difficulty" in EQ1 was essentially artificial timewasters, to make you wait longer, level slower, take longer to do everything. It wasn't actual CONTENT, it wasn't that there was more to do and more to experience, no it was the same amount of content as WoW or even maybe less, it just took LONGER to get anything done, everything took artificially longer to do, so people felt they had an "investment" in the game, they were no longer having fun but after spending 2 years building up your character, people didnt want to quit, even though they were not having any fun at all. The success of WoW is a wakeup call to the industry to cut out the GARBAGE in their games, the artificial TIME WASTERS. In a way WoW ruined it for all the other companies. Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters. We want the epicness without the waste. We want the upsides without the downsides. Dont tell me it can't be done, Mr MMO company, WoW proved that it COULD be done. Sure now that its 3-4 years old, you can say "ppl solo to 50 before they play" but people didn't used to do that when *I* started playing, they only do that now because they have 7 alts and they've already seen all the content. People say "its boring at 70" you know why? Because 1-70 was such an awesome ride the first time, that they want MORE. But alas nobody can WRITE content faster than you can READ it, so once you get to 70 the ride is over and all thats left is grind. One thing is for damn sure. I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.
Yes, just yes. I too have never understood why the old MMO'ers (particularly EQ1'ers) look down on WoW so. My brother had 5-6 years invested in EQ1 as a cleric. He was in some high ranking guild and acquiring xxx loot every so often. I'd often come to watch him play as well as just generally try to understand what the fascination was. I'd watch the raids that, to be quite honest, looked horrible graphically speaking. Heal chains, feign pulls, etc. Sure it took a bit of skill to "learn" but once it was a skill you possessed it was simply a matter of waiting for your queue and then healing/buffing like the other lemmings.
Once WoW hit I joined up. I ended up becoming a raid leader in the early stage of the game (when onyxia was like the only raid boss), and my bro would come to watch me play. He was so blown away by how much bullshit (forgive the language but that's what it was) was cut out of the game for the sake of pure fun that he quit EQ1 cold turkey. I stayed with WoW for 2+ years myself (stopped at last boss in AQ) and I know that the previously mentioned equation of "time=reward" does not apply to WoW. The equation that best fits WoW is "time+dedication+understanding+luck=reward." You can have weeks to dedicate to an encounter and "never" get it. As a matter of fact on the server I played on that very thing was what lead to the majority of guild disbands. People would come together and couldn't figure out encounters so the guild just imploded. The creative juices had to be flowing when you approached an encounter in WoW. Death isn't a strict penalty in WoW, simply because if it was you'd never get anything done in a reasonable amount of time. There was a period of 3 weeks where my guild spent time wiping day in and day out in Blackwing's Lair. With each defeat we slowly learned a new portion of what worked a what didn't. I say that only to make it clear that death equating to risk is, as previously stated, an artificial time waster.
I really just think the poster above hit the nail on the head. EQ1's challenge was social; whereas WoW is strictly gameplay. Since everyone in WoW is at or can easily attain the level cap; you don't really have to depend on someone as much because as cold as it may sound - they are replaceable.
{SNIP} Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters. We want the epicness without the waste. We want the upsides without the downsides. {SNIP} One thing is for damn sure. I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.
UGH! Isn't this exactly what is wrong with the world today - Marxism!
This isn't a bash at you Fizzle per se. It is just the sickness that I hear day in and day out. I want the upsides without the downsides. I want I want I want.
I want the Win Button!
I want the God-Mode!
I want someone else to pay for my healthcare!
I want to stay home and play games while you pay for the house and pizza!
I want everything to be fair that way I don't have to go to college and can still live in a mansion! (Spread the world's weath evenly and we all get $1700 once. Once, and with that all the economies collapes! Good luck buying anything with your 'fair dollars' Nice. Yeah that's what I want)
This is child-think at its finest. Marxist democrat child-think and I guess it shouldn't suprize me that it is the immature philosophy that is killing the gaming world too.
Grrrrrr
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Anyone who played the early days of Asheron's Call knows that IS more difficult than WoW.
Not just in terms of time spent (which, btw, took most people a couple years to get max level and even longer to max stats). Players had to research and learn spell components which were unique to each character (until people figured out the algorithms and macro'd it). Death was severe. No one ever thought about running into the hardest dungeons for the fun of it or just to check out the scenery.
Thanks everybody for the great thread. I would never have thought that we could have this discussion at thismaturity level!
From what I read, there are two school of thinking. Those who think that a game should be pure straight to the point fun, and those who think that straight to the point is a shortcut when the journey is the goal.
I know it's not exactly that and I saw the subtelty (sp? French as first language here!), but here's how I explain why I still play WoW.
First, I'm a casual gamer with job, girlfriend and two kids. I play from 9 to 11 maybe 3 or 4 times a week for a total between 5 and 10 hours a week.
I played a lot of mmos from Muds to Tabula Rasa and every major games in between and I had a lot of discussions about all this with a RL friend.
Why do I play WoW? Not because I think it's the best game, I'm too emotional to cut straight on this. Not because I like pastel colored armors or because I have a 5 years old computer. I play WoW because everybody I know play WoW. Plain simple. /defensive stance, potions readied.
I used to play pen&paper D&D and WoW in a guild with Ventrilo or TeamSpeak is like a D&D session with all the jokes, the dumb saying, and the fun. (I'm a D&D purist so it's not quite that, but you get the point!) While I was playing Vanguard lastly, I just felt like when I used to play Asheron's call. I felt alone, in a guild using a foreign language (Not that foreign to you, I know!) using chat because I don't use voice chat when I pog. Everybody in RL was asking me to come in their guild in WoW. I tried to convince some of them to play Vanguard or EQ2, but it was like I had asked "Let's move to Groenland!"
Finally, WoW may or may not be the greatest game of all, but one thing I'm quite sure about, it attracted a very large population and this critical mass is not about to change to another game. I hope a lot for Age of Conan or Warhammer, but how many of the millions of WoW players will migrate? 200 000? 500 000? And How many of my RL friends will try one of them? I don't know.
I spent 10 years playing mmos, a weird game that you have to pay each month to play! 10 years alone and then WoW came and brought this genre to the masses. I'm alone no more, but I'm stuck with WoW, being for the better or the worse.
So, the engine in Vanguard may be better, the PvP in DaoC may have been better, the commitment in EQ may have been better, but ...
Am I to play a multiplayer role playing game with my friends?
Blackraist
P.S. The switch from grinding levels to grinding gear is clever. It changes the buzz so that the addiction persist.
{SNIP} Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters. We want the epicness without the waste. We want the upsides without the downsides. {SNIP} One thing is for damn sure. I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.
UGH! Isn't this exactly what is wrong with the world today - Marxism!
This isn't a bash at you Fizzle per se. It is just the sickness that I hear day in and day out. I want the upsides without the downsides. I want I want I want.
I want the Win Button!
I want the God-Mode!
I want someone else to pay for my healthcare!
I want to stay home and play games while you pay for the house and pizza!
I want everything to be fair that way I don't have to go to college and can still live in a mansion! (Spread the world's weath evenly and we all get $1700 once. Once, and with that all the economies collapes! Good luck buying anything with your 'fair dollars' Nice. Yeah that's what I want)
This is child-think at its finest. Marxist democrat child-think and I guess it shouldn't suprize me that it is the immature philosophy that is killing the gaming world too.
Comments
Wow, there is a pessimistic look at humans and their brains. I can't figure out if you’re speaking metaphorically or literally about the human brain. Brains are very, very complex, people on the other hand can be simple.
Actually, I am speaking literally. The human brain isn't all that complex. It is about as complex as we can understand, but that is because we are using a very flawed tool to try and understand thing i.e. that quite simple brain.
The brain does about 1017th calculations per second. In under ten years, computers will blow past that level with the speed of an Indy car passing a homelss person pushing a shopping cart. From that point on it will all be about writing the software structure to create a "thinking" system. We will be obsolete in the creativity department.
People behave in very predictable ways because we have very limited responces to stimuli. We are not even far from automotons built on the genetic traits we are born with. (One of the reasons why profiling people through genometrics is going to be a very dangerous but inevitable step for the human race)
We tend to live in a dream world of mostly paradolia, inference and reconstructed memory. We are about as good as it gets, but that isn't really all that impressive
But anyway, that was off topic. What were we saying... oh yeah. WoW Rulez! or something
I totally agree though that "Old School" games were all about the Fear Factor of risk and reward! SO TRUE, GOOD POINT! I remember being afraid to go certain place in Asheron's Call because #1 I could get Debt Penality or #2 I could Die and not be able to get back to my body or #3 I could get in to the vicious cycle of body recovery deaths that would wipe me out completely.
In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.
Devs, are you listening? Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Well, while the brain conversation is a lot more interesting, I will also attempt to stay on topic by discussing the issue at hand.
I'll address your comment "
"In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.
Devs, are you listening? Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please. "
The problem as I see it is fairly simple, game structure and the way players earn money is all wrong. My soulution to this problem is pretty complex (more long than complex, but I have to explain the whole thing for it to make sense) and frankly, is for the time being, secret.
Moving on, right now players spend months to achieve whatever goals they set for themselves, but players always (almost anyway) judge their achievements relitive to other players. All achievements take time, after all that is the only real comodity a player has, time. Thus any penalty that causes a player to redo something s/he has already done only matters if what it is that has to be re-done is less enjoyable.
Think about it this way. If you like to shoot hoops and your coach tells you every time you miss three shots in a row in a game you have to run 10 laps around the gym. Now if you hate to run you might not play hoops even though you enjoy it.
If on the other hand your coach said that missing 3 in a row means that you have to stand at the foul line and take 100 shots. Both take time, both pull you out of the game, but shooting 100 shots might be fun, where as running laps is something you might hate.
Most players enjoy fighting NPC's, but after a while it becomes something we all know as the "grind". The penelty of death is often, "more of the the grind". It all goes back to where new wealth in the game comes from and how developers and game designers work to keep these issues in check.
I define a lot of the problems I see here http://www.slideshare.net/talin/defining-the-current-state-of-the-mmog-economy/
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I support quick lvling on MMO's because a game is not supposed to be a part time job it's supposed to be a game that you can connect for an hour a be able to lvl up or complete a couple of quests and getting near to lvl up. I hated MMO's that everything is a goddamn job like FFXI some might say; "Ah but the fact that is hard the acomplishment feels great." but sincerely I think I prefer spend time in the real world and accomplish something on my real life than on a pixelated game.
I love MMO's but most companies have to stick with the casual gamer philosophy.
Keeping on topic most of those games that you listed are great games. IMO i didnt like EQ and DAOC becuase everything when i played them took too much time.
VSOH I played the beta and enjoyed it but i dont know about the release version.
I loved LoTRO its fun and theres no ganking what so ever. It is the roleplayer's paradise not that everyon that plays is a role player but it is a solid game and its fun as hell.
EQ2 is very fun one of the best mmos i've played but the problem with this game is that it has so many loading screens that pisses me off.
And finally WoW well it's my favorite mmo of all time played it since release til last month. For me it is one of the greatest mmos ever made its not perfect but is very fun to play.
If you want something diferent try Tabula Rasa is a great game and unique.
You said "I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out. "
What is the goal of an MMO? Is it to level? Is it to get stuff you need faster? If so, can someone please explain to me how in an age where processors can handle almost 60 billion instructions per second, how we have evolved from Zelda?
MMO's have become nothing more than playing an advanced version of Zelda, but we play together.
I think that developers have totally lost sight of the fact that MMORPG's are social games, both positive and negative social aspects should be included. What most games are are Zelda style games that never end. This is accomplished through the expansions that the poster mentions. All exspasions are are a way to redefine wealth in the system by making what is already there obsolete.
I think it's pathetic.
Introduce the human element. I don't want to kill a dragon with 500.000 hit points, any player worth his salt with the same number of hit points (or even close) is a much bigger challenge to fight and a greater accomplishment when you win than any AI generated monster. Kill 500 dragons a month or 500 players and see which brings you more respect. Yes you could be despised, but that is just respect rapped in dislike.
The problem is developers haven't figured out how to entrust players to guard the games wealth, if they ask nice I'll tell them
/steps off his soap box.
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
Ok I never played EQ2, I played EQ1 so I'll compare that to WoW.
In EQ1 the challenge was social.
In WoW the challenge is gameplay.
In EQ1 past around level 15 you could not do ANYTHING without a group (except certain classes like Necro could solo like a mofo)
In WoW you can solo to 70 no prob.
In EQ1 there were no battlegrounds, you either rolled on a PvP server or you type /duel
In WoW you can either roll on a pvp server, or go to arena, or /duel, or /pvp flag yourself, or battlegrounds
In EQ1 if you died you lose exp, also you have to ask someone for a SoW and run back to your corpse, where you might die again and again and again dragging it out of whatever cave you died in.
In WoW if you die you have spend cash for repair. If your body is somewhere unrecoverable you use a soul healer and take a 10 minute penalty.
In EQ1 to travel from 1 continent to another, could take like 2 hours.
In WoW travel from Ungoro to lets say the Outlands portal in Blasted Lands on boat/bird is about 15 minutes.
In a way you COULD say Wow is "easier" but I dont think thats the correct word.
What most people call "difficulty" in EQ1 was essentially artificial timewasters, to make you wait longer, level slower, take longer to do everything.
It wasn't actual CONTENT, it wasn't that there was more to do and more to experience, no it was the same amount of content as WoW or even maybe less, it just took LONGER to get anything done, everything took artificially longer to do, so people felt they had an "investment" in the game, they were no longer having fun but after spending 2 years building up your character, people didnt want to quit, even though they were not having any fun at all.
The success of WoW is a wakeup call to the industry to cut out the GARBAGE in their games, the artificial TIME WASTERS.
In a way WoW ruined it for all the other companies.
Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters.
We want the epicness without the waste.
We want the upsides without the downsides.
Dont tell me it can't be done, Mr MMO company, WoW proved that it COULD be done.
Sure now that its 3-4 years old, you can say "ppl solo to 50 before they play" but people didn't used to do that when *I* started playing, they only do that now because they have 7 alts and they've already seen all the content.
People say "its boring at 70" you know why? Because 1-70 was such an awesome ride the first time, that they want MORE.
But alas nobody can WRITE content faster than you can READ it, so once you get to 70 the ride is over and all thats left is grind.
One thing is for damn sure.
I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.
Yes, just yes. I too have never understood why the old MMO'ers (particularly EQ1'ers) look down on WoW so. My brother had 5-6 years invested in EQ1 as a cleric. He was in some high ranking guild and acquiring xxx loot every so often. I'd often come to watch him play as well as just generally try to understand what the fascination was. I'd watch the raids that, to be quite honest, looked horrible graphically speaking. Heal chains, feign pulls, etc. Sure it took a bit of skill to "learn" but once it was a skill you possessed it was simply a matter of waiting for your queue and then healing/buffing like the other lemmings.
Once WoW hit I joined up. I ended up becoming a raid leader in the early stage of the game (when onyxia was like the only raid boss), and my bro would come to watch me play. He was so blown away by how much bullshit (forgive the language but that's what it was) was cut out of the game for the sake of pure fun that he quit EQ1 cold turkey. I stayed with WoW for 2+ years myself (stopped at last boss in AQ) and I know that the previously mentioned equation of "time=reward" does not apply to WoW. The equation that best fits WoW is "time+dedication+understanding+luck=reward." You can have weeks to dedicate to an encounter and "never" get it. As a matter of fact on the server I played on that very thing was what lead to the majority of guild disbands. People would come together and couldn't figure out encounters so the guild just imploded. The creative juices had to be flowing when you approached an encounter in WoW. Death isn't a strict penalty in WoW, simply because if it was you'd never get anything done in a reasonable amount of time. There was a period of 3 weeks where my guild spent time wiping day in and day out in Blackwing's Lair. With each defeat we slowly learned a new portion of what worked a what didn't. I say that only to make it clear that death equating to risk is, as previously stated, an artificial time waster.
I really just think the poster above hit the nail on the head. EQ1's challenge was social; whereas WoW is strictly gameplay. Since everyone in WoW is at or can easily attain the level cap; you don't really have to depend on someone as much because as cold as it may sound - they are replaceable.
UGH! Isn't this exactly what is wrong with the world today - Marxism!
This isn't a bash at you Fizzle per se. It is just the sickness that I hear day in and day out. I want the upsides without the downsides. I want I want I want.
I want the Win Button!
I want the God-Mode!
I want someone else to pay for my healthcare!
I want to stay home and play games while you pay for the house and pizza!
I want everything to be fair that way I don't have to go to college and can still live in a mansion! (Spread the world's weath evenly and we all get $1700 once. Once, and with that all the economies collapes! Good luck buying anything with your 'fair dollars' Nice. Yeah that's what I want)
This is child-think at its finest. Marxist democrat child-think and I guess it shouldn't suprize me that it is the immature philosophy that is killing the gaming world too.
Grrrrrr
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Anyone who played the early days of Asheron's Call knows that IS more difficult than WoW.
Not just in terms of time spent (which, btw, took most people a couple years to get max level and even longer to max stats). Players had to research and learn spell components which were unique to each character (until people figured out the algorithms and macro'd it). Death was severe. No one ever thought about running into the hardest dungeons for the fun of it or just to check out the scenery.
Thanks everybody for the great thread. I would never have thought that we could have this discussion at thismaturity level!
From what I read, there are two school of thinking. Those who think that a game should be pure straight to the point fun, and those who think that straight to the point is a shortcut when the journey is the goal.
I know it's not exactly that and I saw the subtelty (sp? French as first language here!), but here's how I explain why I still play WoW.
First, I'm a casual gamer with job, girlfriend and two kids. I play from 9 to 11 maybe 3 or 4 times a week for a total between 5 and 10 hours a week.
I played a lot of mmos from Muds to Tabula Rasa and every major games in between and I had a lot of discussions about all this with a RL friend.
Why do I play WoW? Not because I think it's the best game, I'm too emotional to cut straight on this. Not because I like pastel colored armors or because I have a 5 years old computer. I play WoW because everybody I know play WoW. Plain simple. /defensive stance, potions readied.
I used to play pen&paper D&D and WoW in a guild with Ventrilo or TeamSpeak is like a D&D session with all the jokes, the dumb saying, and the fun. (I'm a D&D purist so it's not quite that, but you get the point!) While I was playing Vanguard lastly, I just felt like when I used to play Asheron's call. I felt alone, in a guild using a foreign language (Not that foreign to you, I know!) using chat because I don't use voice chat when I pog. Everybody in RL was asking me to come in their guild in WoW. I tried to convince some of them to play Vanguard or EQ2, but it was like I had asked "Let's move to Groenland!"
Finally, WoW may or may not be the greatest game of all, but one thing I'm quite sure about, it attracted a very large population and this critical mass is not about to change to another game. I hope a lot for Age of Conan or Warhammer, but how many of the millions of WoW players will migrate? 200 000? 500 000? And How many of my RL friends will try one of them? I don't know.
I spent 10 years playing mmos, a weird game that you have to pay each month to play! 10 years alone and then WoW came and brought this genre to the masses. I'm alone no more, but I'm stuck with WoW, being for the better or the worse.
So, the engine in Vanguard may be better, the PvP in DaoC may have been better, the commitment in EQ may have been better, but ...
Am I to play a multiplayer role playing game with my friends?
Blackraist
P.S. The switch from grinding levels to grinding gear is clever. It changes the buzz so that the addiction persist.
UGH! Isn't this exactly what is wrong with the world today - Marxism!
This isn't a bash at you Fizzle per se. It is just the sickness that I hear day in and day out. I want the upsides without the downsides. I want I want I want.
I want the Win Button!
I want the God-Mode!
I want someone else to pay for my healthcare!
I want to stay home and play games while you pay for the house and pizza!
I want everything to be fair that way I don't have to go to college and can still live in a mansion! (Spread the world's weath evenly and we all get $1700 once. Once, and with that all the economies collapes! Good luck buying anything with your 'fair dollars' Nice. Yeah that's what I want)
This is child-think at its finest. Marxist democrat child-think and I guess it shouldn't suprize me that it is the immature philosophy that is killing the gaming world too.
Grrrrrr
LOL, good stuff!
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I play EVE- Online. That game requires way more skill then any of these so I cant comment on this.
Edit: Oh well I do play a little lotro but not anyware near max and dont plan on getting there.
Please help me understand what kind of skill you have to have to play Eve.
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10