PvP in MMO's can it be done right?

Wankler

After playing many MMO's over the years I've come to a realization.  PvP in MMO's just don't mix.

I like the persistence of MMO's but killing NPC mobs leaves me cold.  I like going head to head with other players in battles where the outcome is not certain, i.e. I may lose and I only win because I had better luck or more skill.

The problem with MMO's is that in order to compete in PvP, you have to be in the top 5 levels or so of the game, i.e. if the top level is 70 I have to be at least 65 to even think about competing in PvP.  By the time you have killed NPC's for days or months on end, you finally reach the level where you can compete in PvP and you are burnt out on the game.

Sure there are games that have "Arena" style play that match players up of equivalent level, but that's really just a First Person Shooter model glued onto an MMO.

What I'd like to see in MMO's is the following two choices:

1. Pay your 50 bucks buy the game, level up your character

2. Pay your 50 bucks buy the game, then for an extra 50 bucks you get a Max level character, i.e. no leveling, you just get level 70, or 50 or the top level without having to grind.

I have a life, I like MMO's and I like PvP.  I'm tired of logging in to a game and getting beat by other players that beat me, not because they have better skills, but because they have more time in their lives to waste pointing and clicking than I do.   Then when they beat you they act as if their level 70 ganking my level 20 was really an accomplishment.

It wears thin and it's a story repeated in many MMO's.  Because of how an MMO is expected to work, i.e. leveling, getting new gear, etc.  It may not be possible to effectively merge MMO's and PvP without having the problem of "Can't PvP unless you are top level"

So if there's an MMO out there that has PvP and you don't have to be maximum level to even compete, they've got my $$, but so far I haven't found one.

 

apertotes

yes, pvp can be done right. just try EVE. no levels, no grind, no uber items, no arena style play.

no, i wouldnt like to be able to buy a top level character.

Rinic

PvP has been done right.

 

Old SWG.

EvE.

Apraxis

About EvE.. it is not completely true.. you need some skills to fight decent, and even more you need some money to buy a ship.. so you cant really fight from the start against other players.

About SwG.. well i passed it.. so i cant really say a lot about it.

But there are a few solution for the problem, just not well done in the past. The first way a lot of games at least try from time to time(arena style) but more enhanced. The example is WAR.

The world is divided in more or less 4 zones(for each race) for every tier. Tiers are divided from 1-10,11-20,21-20,31-40(max level). And in any of those zones is a part of it for RvR(you will be flagged automaticly for PvP, when you enter it.. and any player above the tier will be transformed into a Chaos chicken, and can not do anything. So in other worlds, the problem remains, but the way to level up is not as high.. it may be not clever to run as lvl1 into those pvp area, but as lvl 6 everything should be ok.

Overall, better then nothing, but not really the true solution, the problem remains and is just reduced.

The other solution would be, that you are in competitive range from the very beginning. Or with other words and to take up your example, that a character from char creation is as powerful like the lvl45(in a lvl 50 capped game), and the maxed out char is just a lil bit better lvl50 in this example. So, that the skills you will pick up over the way give you just more tactical options, more diversity, but not improve your power as much.

With that you could pvp from the very beginning, and would have nevertheless some character advancement.. maybe you should also then give the player other possibilities to advance(which should not affect pvp fights), like city building, empire building, social ranks, or just money to give you more prestige, and more influence, but not more power in pvp fights.. and so on and so forth.

Darkfall is trying to do something like that(ok.. i hear the vaporware cryer and yes it is very long in development), but from the concept they have solved a lot of issues like that. Or with other words, if really darkfal should not release anywhen soon(next 1-2 years) other devs should really pick up some of their concept. Because from a pvp standpoint it is, whatever anyone says about it, the holy grail or at least far better than any pvp mmo before..(at least as any i played.. and i played UO, Shadowbane, DAoC and what not.. hell.. even WoW).

So, with other words their are solutions for this problem, some devs have just to realize those elements.

seabass2003

The simple answer is no.

apertotes

Originally posted by Apraxis


About EvE.. it is not completely true.. you need some skills to fight decent, and even more you need some money to buy a ship.. so you cant really fight from the start against other players.


With that you could pvp from the very beginning, and would have nevertheless some character advancement.. maybe you should also then give the player other possibilities to advance(which should not affect pvp fights), like city building, empire building, social ranks, or just money to give you more prestige, and more influence, but not more power in pvp fights.. and so on and so forth.

of course that you need skills to fight on EVE. eve, although space based, is a rpg, so there are skills and character advancement. otherwise we'd have a space CS or Vice City. but there are no levels, no arena play style and gear does not mean a lot, cause it can be easily lost. also, 3 frigates would destroy a single cruiser, although the economic value of 3 frigates is much lower than a single cruiser.

want more? the character with most skills is a complete industrialist, with only 1 gunnery skill, and can not fly any decent combat ship. that means that if confronted with a brand new character that choose the combat school would most certainly loose the fight.

also, the most powerful vessel is at the same time the most vulnerable, cause although its strenth is really impressive, it needs the coordination of a full alliance to be defended, and if caught alone, it will surely die.

add to this that items and ships are destroyable and lootable, and we have the best example of a working pvp system.

and then, there are social skills, station building, empire building, social ranks, infuence, politics, player run economy... that is most of what you posted. and it is already featured on a 4 year old game.

of course, EVE has many problems, and exploits, and bugs, and many gamers hate loosing their gear and ships and despise this game with all their heart. but from a design point, EVE pvp is brilliant.

Apraxis

I know that EvE is at the moment the best working pvp game.. no question, but the problem of the OP remains in EvE, you have to invest a lot of time(not so much really playing, but timer nevertheless) before you can pvp.

And of course we need character advancement... but my point was, that it have to be not as huge, and even more not be solely from skills and especially for fighting. There are a lot of other character advancement beside of skills, and even EvE is one of the better examples of it. So.. i really think it is possible to realize an advanement system, where you can fight and be competive from the very beginning, without lack of further character advancement and improvement. I really didnt want attack EvE, especially it is really one of the better mmorpgs nowadays.

apertotes

Originally posted by Apraxis


I know that EvE is at the moment the best working pvp game.. no question, but the problem of the OP remains in EvE, you have to invest a lot of time(not so much really playing, but timer nevertheless) before you can pvp.
And of course we need character advancement... but my point was, that it have to be not as huge, and even more not be solely from skills and especially for fighting. There are a lot of other character advancement beside of skills, and even EvE is one of the better examples of it. So.. i really think it is possible to realize an advanement system, where you can fight and be competive from the very beginning, without lack of further character advancement and improvement. I really didnt want attack EvE, especially it is really one of the better mmorpgs nowadays.

are you proposing to limit any kind of combat advancement, and let the players advance only on social, economic, etc, skills? i wouldnt mind at all, since for me, combat is just a small part of MMORPGs, but i do not think many people would like that.

still, i believe that eve does ok with new players. on level based games, a top level character can hardly be damaged by multiple low level players. meanwhile, on eve, a new player can be very competitive on a interceptor or a cruiser in less than a month. and a pack of cruisers is a very dangerous enemy for anybody caught alone, even for a experienced player on a multibillion fitted battleship.

of course, 1vs1, with comparable ships, the newer player is bound to loose if the older player has trained combat skills. but i think that is a desirable thing. experience and skills, just like in real life, should matter.

Forcan

Originally posted by Wankler


After playing many MMO's over the years I've come to a realization.  PvP in MMO's just don't mix.
Not that PvP in MMO's don't mix, but rather it is stuck in the mindset of level/class/gear restrictions due to developers' own preferences.
I like the persistence of MMO's but killing NPC mobs leaves me cold.  I like going head to head with other players in battles where the outcome is not certain, i.e. I may lose and I only win because I had better luck or more skill.
Many would like the same thing if the system is set up and implement correctly.


The problem with MMO's is that in order to compete in PvP, you have to be in the top 5 levels or so of the game, i.e. if the top level is 70 I have to be at least 65 to even think about competing in PvP.  By the time you have killed NPC's for days or months on end, you finally reach the level where you can compete in PvP and you are burnt out on the game.
This is the downside of using level as progress indicator, not PvP in general.  So you are more against character progression using level which limits and restrict the PvP aspect.


Sure there are games that have "Arena" style play that match players up of equivalent level, but that's really just a First Person Shooter model glued onto an MMO.
What I'd like to see in MMO's is the following two choices:
1. Pay your 50 bucks buy the game, level up your character
2. Pay your 50 bucks buy the game, then for an extra 50 bucks you get a Max level character, i.e. no leveling, you just get level 70, or 50 or the top level without having to grind.
The second one is but an idiotic way of design.  Not that your idea isn't a valid one, but if such system exist, then most would just pay that extra 50 bucks to play a max level character and bypass the whole point of a MMORPG (the journey to become great...).  It has its merits, but I doubt it should ever be implemented in the present MMO's.
I have a life, I like MMO's and I like PvP.  I'm tired of logging in to a game and getting beat by other players that beat me, not because they have better skills, but because they have more time in their lives to waste pointing and clicking than I do.   Then when they beat you they act as if their level 70 ganking my level 20 was really an accomplishment.
Again, the point you made is against character progression in level, and its effects on PvP aspect.  But you value your time, so does other players.  You feel that you shouldn't need to spend the time to become better at your character while others spend countless hours to learn the ins and outs of their characters.  And you think such action is wasted?  What's your complain really?  (Again, of course some of the systems isn't well-thought out right now, but that doesn't make an excuse to label the time people spend on a game as wasted.
It wears thin and it's a story repeated in many MMO's.  Because of how an MMO is expected to work, i.e. leveling, getting new gear, etc.  It may not be possible to effectively merge MMO's and PvP without having the problem of "Can't PvP unless you are top level"
It's the developers' unimaginative mindset on what a MMORPG should contain that's the problem, not the other way around.  Having leveling, new and better gear isn't what MMO is about.  But due to the mindset of developers, that's the focus right now.  (Only a few game where crafters are made to have a impact on the game world.)  As for PvP, the point still remains that it's the character progression system using level as indicator which is the problem.  If all skills were to be opened, and a limiter is set to the pursue of the skills, then PvP would be about how much you know your own character instead of how high a level you are.


So if there's an MMO out there that has PvP and you don't have to be maximum level to even compete, they've got my $$, but so far I haven't found one.
There are a few out there, but they are not main-stream so you wouldn't really hear much about it.  Damn I want my SWG-PreCU... such a good game, and it was one of the best PvP at the time (I was competing when I wasn't even a full template yet.... such fun time..)
 

 

nethervoid

You contradict yourself when you say you want an MMORPG's complexity and depth of market and systems, but you want to just start out at max level and just PvP.  So what part of starting out at max level and just PvPing all the time requires any part of an MMORPG?  Just play any console FPS out there and you have what you're asking for.  Also there's planetside.  You are competative right out of the gate, yet as you get more kills and hacks you can get access to more weapons etc.

The main problem with your argument is you seem to both want and not want the aspects of an MMO at the same time.  More precisely you say you don't want to play a FPS but yet you then say you wish devs built an MMORPG that had the exact aspects of a FPS, except maybe add a market on there for selling and buying goods...except how are you going to make money if all you do is PvP or how are you going to have anything to sell if all you do is PvP.

Yeah if the other person dropped gear then maybe, but then again the gear he drops won't be any better than yours because if you're losing your gear all the time everyone will be wearing common gear.  Nobody's going to PvP in something expensive when they drop all their stuff when they die.

In conclusion, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

nomadian

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Would you play an MMO where it was possible to purchase a max level character and bypass grinding?

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Sorry to be anal, but surely it would be better to play a multiplayer game in which case? I mean multiplayer- you have no advancement. I understand for sure that pvp should be more 'skill-based' than who is the higher level, or who has the most twink equipment- but its like you're asking for a pre-made set class. You select your class and play- why play a mmorpg in that case?

Briansho

I think it can work out if its fully tested pre-release. Some of the pvp add-on with games just doesn't work because they are forever balancing/nerfing everything.

Apraxis

Originally posted by apertotes

are you proposing to limit any kind of combat advancement, and let the players advance only on social, economic, etc, skills? i wouldnt mind at all, since for me, combat is just a small part of MMORPGs, but i do not think many people would like that.
still, i believe that eve does ok with new players. on level based games, a top level character can hardly be damaged by multiple low level players. meanwhile, on eve, a new player can be very competitive on a interceptor or a cruiser in less than a month. and a pack of cruisers is a very dangerous enemy for anybody caught alone, even for a experienced player on a multibillion fitted battleship.
of course, 1vs1, with comparable ships, the newer player is bound to loose if the older player has trained combat skills. but i think that is a desirable thing. experience and skills, just like in real life, should matter.

Yeap.. EvE does ok, but it could be even better.. the initial time you need for EvE is a little bit long, if you ask me. Sometimes i think the best way would be buy it.. create character.. wait 3 month until you have enough skills. And then play.

You should not need to invest more time for it, as you need to get comfortable with the use of your skills and the basic game mechanics.. so roughly a day or a few hours. And then you should be able to pvp.

So yes i propose to limit the range of combat advancement.. with other word, that the combat advancement are just more tactical options, but not so much more powerful attacks. Just as health points, no need to increase them much, if at all. With other words, more diversity in skills, but not more damage.. with that you would have on the one side advancement, but on the other side not so much difference in fighting strength, that the noob can fight against the veteran.. and the player skill becomes more important.

 

Danhilderman

It's already been done right. It's called Ultima Online and AC1