far better for them to get it to a point where its merchandisable . non of us want another vanguard . personally i m going to try either conan or if thats delayed lord of the rings . am totally bored with warcraft now .
There's a ton of this kind of sentiment floating around. The devs are only saying and have repeated it that they are using this time to POLISH the game. If it was another Vanguard at this point, someone probably would get fired (mark).
However, I think it's at least some measure of BS. They show all these videos saying, "look! look how great it is even though we're still in beta!" and now say, "Oh, oh wait. It's really not that great and we need another 1/3 of a year minimum to polish it up". Four months of polish time? Isn't that what they said the last time the game was delayed? That excuse is wearing thin.
Oh, and Mark? If you're so avid about saying that release times aren't set in stone then take your own advice and stop giving even a general time release. You're better off just saying, "A minimum of x months, but most likely longer. It's finished when it's finished and not soon, so I can't give you even a vague time frame."
Note: I'm not angry about the delay, I expect it with this market. However, if you're going to say one thing, then do another and continually disappoint your target consumer you're shooting yourself in the foot.
In reply to the above post...I do think you're right ...Marketting is definitely involved here...and from what I can glean from P. Barnett's fun-filled videos, everything is watched closely...has a timeline and done for a reason.
I don't have any problems with this..or any problems understanding it. I am not one of those people who will go cry because War isn't out yet...quality takes time..and thats all there is to it. Meantime we have the spring and summer to do other things while we're waiting on War.
People need to realize that all the screaming and yelling in the world ..won't make it come out faster. They need to do what they need to do.
Personally I am pleased they finally gave us an opportunity to pre-order the CE, its something I have been waiting for.
Meantime I will continue to read up on any and all info in regards to Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, because I know its not going to be another Vanguard..for one, and for two I think these guys (my personal impression) are actually excited about their own game. I think they have been as forthcoming as possible with projected dates, nothing ever seems to go as planned...and thats par for the course.
War is my very last online game I'll play...been online since 1995...and when I retire from gaming, War will be the one I regrettfully put down..to do "real life".
Patience ....is STILL a Virtue..I think some folks need to think about that one.
I find the incessant whining that erupts whenever any game is delayed to be extremely childish. Real life is packed with fun activities that make time just fly by.
The pressure is now on Funcom (with Age of Conan) to make a game with lasting appeal instead of fighting EA-Mythic for launch day numbers. It's a no-brainer now that AoC will be the game of the summer but will that reign be short-lived?
I'm looking forward to both games, but with WAR I'm just letting it sit on the back burner now. When I see an actual release date and pre-orders for sale then I'll be interested.
They forgot about step 6 (or maybe 5a). Release the CE version to generate some sales for this quarter and offset the negative hype over the pushback by promising OB access with each purchase.
Don't get me wrong. I'll play WAR. But as one of the earlier posters wrote, I've been around since the middle 90s and have grown tired of 'same old, same old'. WAR will most likely be my last real 'hard core' game. I am hoping it will be good enough to hold me for a while so if they delay, so be it.
At least it takes the burden off explaining to my wife why I bought 2 games in a months time (WAR and AoC being so close in original release dates.) Ha Ha!
It is my impression that Conan is less finished than WAR. Just a gut feeling who knows (unless someone in both betas wants to drop me a PM saying Im wrong). I'm sure i'll play both at some stage obviously the first to hit the shelves will be first on the hard drive. Sadly nowadays MMORPG's only hold me for a few months many not even that. Just wish I could find something that really grabs me by the gonads to play right now.
Milk that cash cow for all it's worth. Funny how I could produce high quality work on time. How did I do that? Well I'm glad you asked. First off I didn't @$&;% around, I worked on jobs that where always a rush. We need this done right away. So what did I do? I worked my a$$ off. I didn't cut corners. The work was of the highest quality. On those very few jobs where there was no rush. Guess what the job went on and on. I milked it for all it's worth. Sometimes placing a time limit on a job isn't such a bad idea (just take a look at Iraq). Is my story rare? I don't think so. Oh and by the way I could care less if WAR ever comes out. Not that I'm mad of the delay, but because WAR brings nothing new to MMORPG.
Uh ..pre-orders are for sale..go to Warhammer's site..its plastered all over the front page. :P Collector's Edition with all kinds of bells and whistles, depending which store you order it from.
Don't think i have much confidence in Funcom, I was in on the release of Anarchy Online..lets just say it wasn't the best release ...and for 3 months after..there were still some rather large problems. :P
The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.
I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game.
And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market".
And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p
Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.
The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US. I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game. And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market". And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.
Well I agree with you, but keep something in mind. WoW is so hugely popular for a certain reason...not because of the Warcraft name, or because of any certain graphical styles. It's because the game is fun. That's as much an opinion as it's a convention, and of course a good number of people will play it and not enjoy their time.
But nine million people, more than any other online game before it, many of whom are first timers to the genre, have played the game and become addicted. Still, just calling it 'fun' is a little vague. The character development is interesting, the abilities are fun to try in combat (and constantly changing through patches) the world itself is rather well conceived, and the game is programmed incredibly well. Nearly everything works the way it should, nothing seems too 'slow' or restraining, it's an easy game to just jump into and feel like a part of the world that's fun to interact with. It's on the easy side which makes it even more accessible, but there are a lot of further challenges players can find once the levelling process is tired out. Everything about WoW is solid. All of it comes together and ropes people in who never even thought they'd play a game like this.
I'm not writing a review for WoW, I'm trying to put the desire to emulate WoW's success into perspective. They're not just trying to put out a game made a certain way that will make a lot of money, they're trying to make a game so accessible that people in the millions will jump into this game and come away with it wanting to return. Sure, it will make them a lot of money...and that's why EA is so lenient with Mythic about this.
To put it conversely, think about Final Fantasy XI. There are some people who think the game is utterly badass, and hate the guts out of World of Warcraft. That's great for them, but people like me who think FFXI is just too slow and unforgiving to get motivated enough to play to the endgame simply aren't going to invest time and money into this product. And Mythic's bottom line is simply, why put out such an extensive, immersive product with such a prolific name as Warhammer if you aren't going to aspire to getting as many people to sink as money hours into this experience as they possibly can? Money or not.
BUT. One thing I agree with you about is that I do feel that they're pushing a little too far toward their perceived ideal of perfection. There's only so much improvement you can make before doing more harm than good. I feel that releasing the game pretty close to perfect and then making small changes after (there's these things called patches and expansions games have!) would be good enough.
I do wonder what state the game, and it's gameplay is in considering the extra length of development put in place for WAR. On the one hand, one can only assume this extra development time is a good thing so that it's extra polished, but on the other hand, I'm worried there's issues with balance and the gameplay features that they had to delay WAR again. I have no interest in the Warhammer franchise, and the only reason I'm planning to buy WAR is because I've enjoyed DAOC for years, and I'm hoping Mythic can better themselves with this game.
Well I'll give them a small applaud for not wanting to release something unfinished but lets be honest here, they weren't going to release anywhere near the same time as AOC. So lets not give them that much credit ok ? This game has been in developement for almost 3 years now and seems to be nowhere near finished. The last time they pushed it back they said they wanted to add more things to the game and polish. Ok great for the fans but asking for essentially an 8 month extension to add even more polish is mind boggling and it is not even guaranteed it is going to release in the fall of 2008. Sounds to me either the beta testers were still unhappy with the changes or simply they just don't want to release near AOC. Could be both but either way I wouldn't expect a 2008 release at all.
I think they put themselves into a hole now. If they released now then it would be the next Vanguard, extend the developement and run the risk of competing with other mmo games such as Stargate Worlds, Guild Wars 2, The Agency, Bioware MMO, Aion and also Blizzard has yet to announce its new mmo which hopefully will be announce soon! Hope someone has a big enough rope to pull them out of the hole cause its getting deeper and deeper.
I think some of the people posting they won't play something because it won't be out in the Summer vs the Fall is idiotic. I also think it's idiotic that people are swayed by forum user ignorance. A time frame for release is not the deciding factor for why anyone plays a game. The deciding factor is the community and friends that will be playing. The systems design of WAR appeals to my gaming style. I know many in my guild bought the CE just to make sure they could setup the guild during the Head Start period.
Reality check -- look over the facts and the mechanics of the game, ignore the forum hype and have fun with your guildmates once it goes live. If it's truly going to be a solid MMO, does it matter when it's released? Make up your own mind and don't be swayed either way by the forum cattle. When it comes out, either play it, or don't. This angst about it in the meanwhile is meaningless.
I never base my wanting to play a game..on when its released. INSTEAD I follow the game, watch the videos read what the critics have to say..either pro or con, and decide for myself if this is the game for me.
Once i do that...its just a waiting/patience game. If the game is pushed back a few times, that tells me that the Devs are not yet satisfied with how things are turning out..and CLOSED BETA is the best time to go back to the drawing board and revise things that looked great on paper but not so good on implementation.
Any work of art.........takes time, patience and love to produce.
I base my game purchasing on a game if said company has made a realtivly close game like it before. In this case, mythic has and two things always stick in my head when I see anything about this title. First, they balance a game to crap and kill the player base. Still have not learned that, second they had another title in the works for a few years and it was deemed "not marketable", Mark's comment about we never bla bla bla, is just like his comments on that cancelled title that "WILL be released" and "Trials of Atlantis was a great expansion to the game", both comments which are and have been proven false.
I give credit were credit is due, daoc rvr was top notch and really the first in game seige type game that was fun and made sense. But everything else was the worse of anything you could think about an MMO. It is why the population went south after so many changes, it is why so many people I know don't care for beta and on and on I can go.
More power to those that will play the title, I just don't eat the b.s. that is being fed here. History speaks mounds more then words, in the case of Conan for instance, I am interested, but pulled my pre-order for the information released started getting double talked, just like they did with AO. Nuff said.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.
snip
I think you have it there. Trouble is WAR is only looking like its going to be incremental improvements on the WoW formula and to be the MMO champ needs a "new generation MMO" I know I sound like an ad-man but seriously it needs something that dosent folow that whole tired EQ WOW formula. I have an opinion on the sort of thing that might be and there are a few titles that have some of the ingredients. Of course when people start to go back and look at what was fun in UO, & before that MUDS, the clues are there. It's all stuff McQuaid stripped out of the genre with EQ.
Man I dont mind the wait just finish it 100%. We as players and Warhammer Fans don't wanna see such a great combination ruined just casue of some people wanting to play early.
Comments
I agree with the Op I also want it when its 100% done. I have faith that we will get a good product.
Anyone else pre-order the Collector"s edition. I did ...from the EA online store in the US.
Can't wait for Warhammer.
There's a ton of this kind of sentiment floating around. The devs are only saying and have repeated it that they are using this time to POLISH the game. If it was another Vanguard at this point, someone probably would get fired (mark).
However, I think it's at least some measure of BS. They show all these videos saying, "look! look how great it is even though we're still in beta!" and now say, "Oh, oh wait. It's really not that great and we need another 1/3 of a year minimum to polish it up". Four months of polish time? Isn't that what they said the last time the game was delayed? That excuse is wearing thin.
Oh, and Mark? If you're so avid about saying that release times aren't set in stone then take your own advice and stop giving even a general time release. You're better off just saying, "A minimum of x months, but most likely longer. It's finished when it's finished and not soon, so I can't give you even a vague time frame."
Note: I'm not angry about the delay, I expect it with this market. However, if you're going to say one thing, then do another and continually disappoint your target consumer you're shooting yourself in the foot.
In reply to the above post...I do think you're right ...Marketting is definitely involved here...and from what I can glean from P. Barnett's fun-filled videos, everything is watched closely...has a timeline and done for a reason.
I don't have any problems with this..or any problems understanding it. I am not one of those people who will go cry because War isn't out yet...quality takes time..and thats all there is to it. Meantime we have the spring and summer to do other things while we're waiting on War.
People need to realize that all the screaming and yelling in the world ..won't make it come out faster. They need to do what they need to do.
Personally I am pleased they finally gave us an opportunity to pre-order the CE, its something I have been waiting for.
Meantime I will continue to read up on any and all info in regards to Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, because I know its not going to be another Vanguard..for one, and for two I think these guys (my personal impression) are actually excited about their own game. I think they have been as forthcoming as possible with projected dates, nothing ever seems to go as planned...and thats par for the course.
War is my very last online game I'll play...been online since 1995...and when I retire from gaming, War will be the one I regrettfully put down..to do "real life".
Patience ....is STILL a Virtue..I think some folks need to think about that one.
Cend
I find the incessant whining that erupts whenever any game is delayed to be extremely childish. Real life is packed with fun activities that make time just fly by.
Ahhh, this is perfect! I was contemplating between War and AoC all the more reason to start with Age of Conan!
The pressure is now on Funcom (with Age of Conan) to make a game with lasting appeal instead of fighting EA-Mythic for launch day numbers. It's a no-brainer now that AoC will be the game of the summer but will that reign be short-lived?
I'm looking forward to both games, but with WAR I'm just letting it sit on the back burner now. When I see an actual release date and pre-orders for sale then I'll be interested.
"It’ll be done when it’s done."
Ah the memories...
They forgot about step 6 (or maybe 5a). Release the CE version to generate some sales for this quarter and offset the negative hype over the pushback by promising OB access with each purchase.
Don't get me wrong. I'll play WAR. But as one of the earlier posters wrote, I've been around since the middle 90s and have grown tired of 'same old, same old'. WAR will most likely be my last real 'hard core' game. I am hoping it will be good enough to hold me for a while so if they delay, so be it.
At least it takes the burden off explaining to my wife why I bought 2 games in a months time (WAR and AoC being so close in original release dates.) Ha Ha!
What i find funny is... ppl still think AoC will be released on time...
It is my impression that Conan is less finished than WAR. Just a gut feeling who knows (unless someone in both betas wants to drop me a PM saying Im wrong). I'm sure i'll play both at some stage obviously the first to hit the shelves will be first on the hard drive. Sadly nowadays MMORPG's only hold me for a few months many not even that. Just wish I could find something that really grabs me by the gonads to play right now.
Milk that cash cow for all it's worth. Funny how I could produce high quality work on time. How did I do that? Well I'm glad you asked. First off I didn't @$&;% around, I worked on jobs that where always a rush. We need this done right away. So what did I do? I worked my a$$ off. I didn't cut corners. The work was of the highest quality. On those very few jobs where there was no rush. Guess what the job went on and on. I milked it for all it's worth. Sometimes placing a time limit on a job isn't such a bad idea (just take a look at Iraq). Is my story rare? I don't think so. Oh and by the way I could care less if WAR ever comes out. Not that I'm mad of the delay, but because WAR brings nothing new to MMORPG.
Heres to the cow, may her teats never dry up.
Send me $30 and I'll gladly send you my boxed copy.
Uh ..pre-orders are for sale..go to Warhammer's site..its plastered all over the front page. :P Collector's Edition with all kinds of bells and whistles, depending which store you order it from.
Really hard to miss.
Cend
Don't think i have much confidence in Funcom, I was in on the release of Anarchy Online..lets just say it wasn't the best release ...and for 3 months after..there were still some rather large problems. :P
Cend
You're probably right. This latest delay opens the door for Funcom to delay again and still release several months before WAR.
I hope they can taker there time, and not get forced pulling a "Vanguard". The game has the potential to be a really ground breaking game.
~H
Haradek Shadowstalker
EQ,EQII,SWG,AO,DAOC,Planetside,COH,WOW
The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.
I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game.
And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market".
And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p
Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.
Well I agree with you, but keep something in mind. WoW is so hugely popular for a certain reason...not because of the Warcraft name, or because of any certain graphical styles. It's because the game is fun. That's as much an opinion as it's a convention, and of course a good number of people will play it and not enjoy their time.
But nine million people, more than any other online game before it, many of whom are first timers to the genre, have played the game and become addicted. Still, just calling it 'fun' is a little vague. The character development is interesting, the abilities are fun to try in combat (and constantly changing through patches) the world itself is rather well conceived, and the game is programmed incredibly well. Nearly everything works the way it should, nothing seems too 'slow' or restraining, it's an easy game to just jump into and feel like a part of the world that's fun to interact with. It's on the easy side which makes it even more accessible, but there are a lot of further challenges players can find once the levelling process is tired out. Everything about WoW is solid. All of it comes together and ropes people in who never even thought they'd play a game like this.
I'm not writing a review for WoW, I'm trying to put the desire to emulate WoW's success into perspective. They're not just trying to put out a game made a certain way that will make a lot of money, they're trying to make a game so accessible that people in the millions will jump into this game and come away with it wanting to return. Sure, it will make them a lot of money...and that's why EA is so lenient with Mythic about this.
To put it conversely, think about Final Fantasy XI. There are some people who think the game is utterly badass, and hate the guts out of World of Warcraft. That's great for them, but people like me who think FFXI is just too slow and unforgiving to get motivated enough to play to the endgame simply aren't going to invest time and money into this product. And Mythic's bottom line is simply, why put out such an extensive, immersive product with such a prolific name as Warhammer if you aren't going to aspire to getting as many people to sink as money hours into this experience as they possibly can? Money or not.
BUT. One thing I agree with you about is that I do feel that they're pushing a little too far toward their perceived ideal of perfection. There's only so much improvement you can make before doing more harm than good. I feel that releasing the game pretty close to perfect and then making small changes after (there's these things called patches and expansions games have!) would be good enough.
I do wonder what state the game, and it's gameplay is in considering the extra length of development put in place for WAR. On the one hand, one can only assume this extra development time is a good thing so that it's extra polished, but on the other hand, I'm worried there's issues with balance and the gameplay features that they had to delay WAR again. I have no interest in the Warhammer franchise, and the only reason I'm planning to buy WAR is because I've enjoyed DAOC for years, and I'm hoping Mythic can better themselves with this game.
Well I'll give them a small applaud for not wanting to release something unfinished but lets be honest here, they weren't going to release anywhere near the same time as AOC. So lets not give them that much credit ok ? This game has been in developement for almost 3 years now and seems to be nowhere near finished. The last time they pushed it back they said they wanted to add more things to the game and polish. Ok great for the fans but asking for essentially an 8 month extension to add even more polish is mind boggling and it is not even guaranteed it is going to release in the fall of 2008. Sounds to me either the beta testers were still unhappy with the changes or simply they just don't want to release near AOC. Could be both but either way I wouldn't expect a 2008 release at all.
I think they put themselves into a hole now. If they released now then it would be the next Vanguard, extend the developement and run the risk of competing with other mmo games such as Stargate Worlds, Guild Wars 2, The Agency, Bioware MMO, Aion and also Blizzard has yet to announce its new mmo which hopefully will be announce soon! Hope someone has a big enough rope to pull them out of the hole cause its getting deeper and deeper.
I think some of the people posting they won't play something because it won't be out in the Summer vs the Fall is idiotic. I also think it's idiotic that people are swayed by forum user ignorance. A time frame for release is not the deciding factor for why anyone plays a game. The deciding factor is the community and friends that will be playing. The systems design of WAR appeals to my gaming style. I know many in my guild bought the CE just to make sure they could setup the guild during the Head Start period.
Reality check -- look over the facts and the mechanics of the game, ignore the forum hype and have fun with your guildmates once it goes live. If it's truly going to be a solid MMO, does it matter when it's released? Make up your own mind and don't be swayed either way by the forum cattle. When it comes out, either play it, or don't. This angst about it in the meanwhile is meaningless.
GM Pendragon Regulars - Dwarfs - Warpstone - WAR
ex-GM Celtic Dragon - Hibernia - Pendragon - DAoC
Well said Ghimpi
I never base my wanting to play a game..on when its released. INSTEAD I follow the game, watch the videos read what the critics have to say..either pro or con, and decide for myself if this is the game for me.
Once i do that...its just a waiting/patience game. If the game is pushed back a few times, that tells me that the Devs are not yet satisfied with how things are turning out..and CLOSED BETA is the best time to go back to the drawing board and revise things that looked great on paper but not so good on implementation.
Any work of art.........takes time, patience and love to produce.
Cend
I base my game purchasing on a game if said company has made a realtivly close game like it before. In this case, mythic has and two things always stick in my head when I see anything about this title. First, they balance a game to crap and kill the player base. Still have not learned that, second they had another title in the works for a few years and it was deemed "not marketable", Mark's comment about we never bla bla bla, is just like his comments on that cancelled title that "WILL be released" and "Trials of Atlantis was a great expansion to the game", both comments which are and have been proven false.
I give credit were credit is due, daoc rvr was top notch and really the first in game seige type game that was fun and made sense. But everything else was the worse of anything you could think about an MMO. It is why the population went south after so many changes, it is why so many people I know don't care for beta and on and on I can go.
More power to those that will play the title, I just don't eat the b.s. that is being fed here. History speaks mounds more then words, in the case of Conan for instance, I am interested, but pulled my pre-order for the information released started getting double talked, just like they did with AO. Nuff said.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
I think you have it there. Trouble is WAR is only looking like its going to be incremental improvements on the WoW formula and to be the MMO champ needs a "new generation MMO" I know I sound like an ad-man but seriously it needs something that dosent folow that whole tired EQ WOW formula. I have an opinion on the sort of thing that might be and there are a few titles that have some of the ingredients. Of course when people start to go back and look at what was fun in UO, & before that MUDS, the clues are there. It's all stuff McQuaid stripped out of the genre with EQ.
Man I dont mind the wait just finish it 100%. We as players and Warhammer Fans don't wanna see such a great combination ruined just casue of some people wanting to play early.