I think some people are misunderstanding where I am coming at with my earlier comments. It's not about making the perpetrator suffer. It is about just punishment for a crime. Frankly, I have no interest in making someone suffer *unless* that suffering leads to an understanding as to the crime they have committed. If it doesn't, then it is pointless and, in fact, cruel.
We should not take joy in giving punishment to those who deserve it. Rather, it is a grave thing and should be done with some reluctence. If we have to execute someone for having done some particularly heineous crime, then we should not feel any glee in doing so.
I am a Christian, and as one, I feel that anyone *can* be redeemed. I think that we should do all we can to help a person repent evil done to others, or even done by themselves to themselves. However, we live in an imperfect world of limited resources and abilities. It is, I think, sometimes beyond us to affect a cure to someone's damaged soul, to heal them of whatever it is that has so twisted them. We should not make the innocent suffer in an attempt to redeem the guilty. When we spend millions or billions of dollars on prisions that are supposed to rehabilitate but often instead do the opposite, we are using dollars that could be spent in other places, or even (gasp) left in the hands of the populous in the form of a lower tax burden.
Someone brought up accidentally killing someone. There is a difference between accidental and intentional. Accidental deaths are *not* murders. It's not a difference between whether you murdered someone because you hated them or because you wanted their money, but rather between whether or not you had any intention of bringing harm to them at all. Societies since the dawn of time have made the distinction between murder and accidental killing. In fact, the Bible itself specifies "Thou shalt not murder." Murder, not kill, and this is very frequently mis-translated. So saying that these two things should be equated insofar as punishment goes is wrong.
Justice is very important to a well-regulated society. If our punishments are not just, either by leniency or severity, then it weakens a society and can eventually cause it to break down. I think having a huge portion of our population in prison implies to me that our system of justice is off-kilter... maybe badly. The ultimate result of this is making itself known every day and will continue to do so into the future.
Is the Death penalty the answer to monsterous criminal behaviour? No. At least not for the mad. But it does save the tax payers untold wealth to keep them locked up for life. And does send a signal to would be villians to think twice about commiting atrocious acts.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Originally posted by Netzoko
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Is the Death penalty the answer to monsterous criminal behaviour? No. At least not for the mad. But it does save the tax payers untold wealth to keep them locked up for life. And does send a signal to would be villians to think twice about commiting atrocious acts.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Originally posted by Netzoko
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Is the Death penalty the answer to monsterous criminal behaviour? No. At least not for the mad. But it does save the tax payers untold wealth to keep them locked up for life. And does send a signal to would be villians to think twice about commiting atrocious acts.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Originally posted by Netzoko
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Maybe the US just has more nutjobs per capita?
To be honest... I have NO IDEA why murder rates are so (relatively) high in the US.
Is the Death penalty the answer to monsterous criminal behaviour? No. At least not for the mad. But it does save the tax payers untold wealth to keep them locked up for life. And does send a signal to would be villians to think twice about commiting atrocious acts.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Originally posted by Netzoko
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Maybe the US just has more nutjobs per capita?
To be honest... I have NO IDEA why murder rates are so (relatively) high in the US.
Drugs, alchohol, ummmm...Husbands that come home early.
The usual.
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Interesting that countries with a greater degree of property right's have a much lower homocide rate.
Look at the bottom of the list, most of those country's rank with some of the highest rates.
It would appear the degree of personal economic liberty have a bearing on the rates.
"6. Confusing association with causation This is similar to the post-hoc fallacy in that it assumes cause and effect for two variables simply because they are correlated, although the relationship here is not strictly that of one variable following the other in time. This fallacy is often used to give a statistical correlation a causal interpretation. For example, during the 1990’s both religious attendance and illegal drug use have been on the rise. It would be a fallacy to conclude that therefore, religious attendance causes illegal drug use. It is also possible that drug use leads to an increase in religious attendance, or that both drug use and religious attendance are increased by a third variable, such as an increase in societal unrest. It is also possible that both variables are independent of one another, and it is mere coincidence that they are both increasing at the same time. "
I think that if they are convicted, they should hang from the neck until dead. Or perhaps a firing squad, but honestly I think a hanging is a more appropriate punishment for this sort of crime.
People who think like you and say such things really scary me , mean you like killing as well and proly are subconsciously also proon to it...
when we punish a killer , the idea is to remove him from society because he is a problem and danger to us, not to practise our own revange and sutisfy our own lust for blood ....
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
Accept everyone for who they are. A world where love and peace exist is the best type of world anyone could wish for.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
Okay, I don't know why you are stuck on this eye crap..Don't you freakin learn 6th grade social studies? Eye for an eye is saying, whatever you do, happens to you (in a simple term). I just believe these people either deserve to live behind bars or mabye the death sentence.
How the hell is saying questionably looking people stereotipical? So you're not around the best group of people, where this kind of thing would happen morre than in a better envirement.
But listen, there are people who do this shit. And when they do shit like kill people for no reason, you really don't think that they deserve a serious consequence? That's pathetic, for if nothing happens, and he spends 20 years behind bars where they give him food, clothing, etc. then America is too soft on crime,
Don't get me wrong, if something accidental happens, thenm of course this will noot be put into action. As wel as that, it has to be something serious (like killing an innocent man).
It is clear that you haven't watched the news or left your house in a while, for things like this (unfortunately) happen, and if gone unpunishable, or if the other kids gets away, then that is a problem. It is clear that you don't know, no matter how good or bad a person, that they can and may crack. There was a girl in our school, and this kid kept flicking erasers at her all clas.. She admitted that she wanted to take a gun to school and shoot him. I am not saying that peopel are either good or evil, but theyt have limits. Clearly what happened in the case of the man, he did nothing wrong, and the people were just "evil".
I'm done, for this is kind of off-topic..
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
Okay, I don't know why you are stuck on this eye crap..Don't you freakin learn 6th grade social studies? Eye for an eye is saying, whatever you do, happens to you (in a simple term). I just believe these people either deserve to live behind bars or mabye the death sentence.
How the hell is saying questionably looking people stereotipical? So you're not around the best group of people, where this kind of thing would happen morre than in a better envirement.
But listen, there are people who do this shit. And when they do shit like kill people for no reason, you really don't think that they deserve a serious consequence? That's pathetic, for if nothing happens, and he spends 20 years behind bars where they give him food, clothing, etc. then America is too soft on crime,
Don't get me wrong, if something accidental happens, thenm of course this will noot be put into action. As wel as that, it has to be something serious (like killing an innocent man).
It is clear that you haven't watched the news or left your house in a while, for things like this (unfortunately) happen, and if gone unpunishable, or if the other kids gets away, then that is a problem. It is clear that you don't know, no matter how good or bad a person, that they can and may crack. There was a girl in our school, and this kid kept flicking erasers at her all clas.. She admitted that she wanted to take a gun to school and shoot him. I am not saying that peopel are either good or evil, but theyt have limits. Clearly what happened in the case of the man, he did nothing wrong, and the people were just "evil".
I'm done, for this is kind of off-topic..
What those people deserve is something subjective. What they need and more importantly what society needs (they're strangely related tho) is an entirely different matter. I know the an eye for an eye proverb, yes. It's yet another proof that something that sounds good isn't necessarily correct.
I think it's pretty much obvious that people who look questionable don't have to be questionable. IMHO (also a bit due to personal experience) people who look normal are the least to be trusted because you know least what you can expect from them.
But maybe this too is subjective. Perhaps you're a xenophobe and I'm a xenophile or perhas it's not that simple. I simply think that you having an opinion about what is "questionable" and what is not reveals a great deal about how you think.
And you prove my point. "And when they do shit like kill people for no reason"
Why do you assume anyone ever kills for no reason? We're animals. We don't act (consume energy) if there's not a damn good reason. We do everything for a reason. Even if that reason is completely incomprehensible for other people. There is no "evil" that compels people to go and kill. The world isn't that simple.
I'm pretty sure (proof of that are countries with capital punishment) that people who don't think like you or anyone else does care very little about the consequences. Murderers rarely have a good grasp of the consequences.
I've already provided you with a link more or less explaining that capital punishment isn't necessarily cheaper than imprisonment for life.
It's also perfectly obvious that capital punishment isn't much of a deterrent. If you want I can also point out that if there's one thing that kills innocent people then it's the death penalty. As far as I see it there is no advantage to capital punishment. Save maybe that it's comforts people who have a simplistic view on the world. (no pun intended)
Punishment is not much of a deterrence (and most certainly not when you "snap"). Like you said yourself. The girl in your school wanted to have a gun. She didn't consider the consequences.
So what to do about crime? Prevent it. Because otherwise society will never win. Every time a crime is committed then society suffers. Every time there are victims and almost every time someone gets punsihed, which turns him/her in yet another victim. Punishment doesn't mend the damage, it's just deepens the wound. Many countries are attempting to adopt damage control (by, for example, rehabilitation) and in some areas damage prevention. It's proving to work better than the old-fashioned revenge based system where prisons are universities for crime and even the smallest sentence is a life sentence.
You might realize this when you have cast off the yoke of 6th grade social class.
Sociopaths cannot be 'rehabilitated." The illusion that people such as child molesters can simply stop is what makes ultra soft-crime nations melt under the pressure. People like that don't stop because they don't want to be caught, they never stop because they can't. Should we put people like that to death? I personally don't think so, as they are only acting what's natural to them. I do, however, think that a crime should have an equal penalty regardless of mental health. 2nd degree murder? Life without parole even if you are 'insane.' Someone who mistakingly kills is just as dangerous as someone who wants to kill. Nature should not be punished, but dangerous people need to be locked up to protect the greater population. Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
What are your psychological qualifications to make a judgement such as "Sociopaths cannot be 'rehabilitated.'"? I'm afraid to say that there is a drastic amount of evidence to the contrary, based upon the same techniques that can 'cure' people of Autism and severe forms of depression. There is no difference. The patient may be less inclined to -want- to change, which may mean that MOST "Sociopaths cannot be 'rehabilitated.', BUT some can.
In response to your other paragraph, I agree with not putting them to death. I also don't feel that sentences should be given. Rehabilitation targets should. As stated, most will not accept help even if it's there, and thus they will end up locked up permanently. If, however, progress is made, why should someone not be given the chance to live a real life now that their nature is different? You accept, in stating that they shouldn't be put to death, that it's not their responsibility that they were like that, so ultimately if they're a 'different' person after years of rehabilitating treatment, why should they be held responsible for what they did when they knew nothing else?
I tend to agree that people should have to sacrifice what they made someone else sacrifice, but I disagree about accidents. If an accident was caused by negligence, then yes, they should receive the same punishment as if it were intentional, because arguably it was. They knew the possibility was there because of their negligence, but did not change their behaviour. If an accident was entirely accidental - ridiculous things that somehow do happen like tripping over, knocking something over causing someone to break a limb or possibly even die - I think punishment for that is questionable entirely, let alone giving the same punishment as if they'd meant to break their leg or kill them. If you stumble on the street and bump into someone, you don't expect them to floor your for it - and if they did, you'd have them charged with assault, because accidents are accidents. People somehow have a misguided impression that the worse the outcome of the accident, the less of an accident it was, and thus the more punishment should be received; this simply isn't true though - accidents, by definition, aren't intentional or avoidable. Arguably it's a VERY immature thing to seek punishment for accidental behaviour (see Piaget's Ink blobs experiments).
And yes you can. Homicide rates are compared per person, not per country. In fact, you can generally also get the statistics based on population density (to counter the 'well no canadians kill, because it's fucking freezing to get to the next person's house to kill the owners' thing.)
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Because you can't take the other variables into account.
Simply comparing percentages isn't conclusive unless all laws, politics, and social structures are the constant. Yes, the numbers show a difference in murder rates, but my point is that the US rates won't necessarily decline if it starts doing everything like Norway.
Also, you cannot compare Norway homicide rates to massive nations like China and the US.
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Because you can't take the other variables into account.
Simply comparing percentages isn't conclusive unless all laws, politics, and social structures are the constant. Yes, the numbers show a difference in murder rates, but my point is that the US rates won't necessarily decline if it starts doing everything like Norway.
Of course that is true. But unless people in the US and Norway are radically different from each other it would seem that Norway is at least doing something better than the US.
Comments
I think some people are misunderstanding where I am coming at with my earlier comments. It's not about making the perpetrator suffer. It is about just punishment for a crime. Frankly, I have no interest in making someone suffer *unless* that suffering leads to an understanding as to the crime they have committed. If it doesn't, then it is pointless and, in fact, cruel.
We should not take joy in giving punishment to those who deserve it. Rather, it is a grave thing and should be done with some reluctence. If we have to execute someone for having done some particularly heineous crime, then we should not feel any glee in doing so.
I am a Christian, and as one, I feel that anyone *can* be redeemed. I think that we should do all we can to help a person repent evil done to others, or even done by themselves to themselves. However, we live in an imperfect world of limited resources and abilities. It is, I think, sometimes beyond us to affect a cure to someone's damaged soul, to heal them of whatever it is that has so twisted them. We should not make the innocent suffer in an attempt to redeem the guilty. When we spend millions or billions of dollars on prisions that are supposed to rehabilitate but often instead do the opposite, we are using dollars that could be spent in other places, or even (gasp) left in the hands of the populous in the form of a lower tax burden.
Someone brought up accidentally killing someone. There is a difference between accidental and intentional. Accidental deaths are *not* murders. It's not a difference between whether you murdered someone because you hated them or because you wanted their money, but rather between whether or not you had any intention of bringing harm to them at all. Societies since the dawn of time have made the distinction between murder and accidental killing. In fact, the Bible itself specifies "Thou shalt not murder." Murder, not kill, and this is very frequently mis-translated. So saying that these two things should be equated insofar as punishment goes is wrong.
Justice is very important to a well-regulated society. If our punishments are not just, either by leniency or severity, then it weakens a society and can eventually cause it to break down. I think having a huge portion of our population in prison implies to me that our system of justice is off-kilter... maybe badly. The ultimate result of this is making itself known every day and will continue to do so into the future.
A Florida study has concluded that capital punishment can be up to 6 times as expensive as life in prison.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
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A Florida study has concluded that capital punishment can be up to 6 times as expensive as life in prison.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Maybe the US just has more nutjobs per capita?
O_o o_O
A Florida study has concluded that capital punishment can be up to 6 times as expensive as life in prison.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Maybe the US just has more nutjobs per capita?
To be honest... I have NO IDEA why murder rates are so (relatively) high in the US.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Property_Rights_Index
Interesting that countries with a greater degree of property right's have a much lower homocide rate.
Look at the bottom of the list, most of those country's rank with some of the highest rates.
It would appear the degree of personal economic liberty have a bearing on the rates.
A Florida study has concluded that capital punishment can be up to 6 times as expensive as life in prison.
If capital punishment is a deterrence then why don't countries with capital punishment have the lowest homicide rates?
I've seen people say that Norway simply has a low population density and that is the reason why people don'y kill each other.
Then why doesn't a country with a very high population density (like the Netherlands with over 10 times the US population density but with a sixth of the US homicide rate) have a corresponding homicide rate?
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Maybe the US just has more nutjobs per capita?
To be honest... I have NO IDEA why murder rates are so (relatively) high in the US.
Drugs, alchohol, ummmm...Husbands that come home early.
The usual.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
i think its because of the poverty.. but i dont think US is in poverty stage..
"6. Confusing association with causation This is similar to the post-hoc fallacy in that it assumes cause and effect for two variables simply because they are correlated, although the relationship here is not strictly that of one variable following the other in time. This fallacy is often used to give a statistical correlation a causal interpretation. For example, during the 1990’s both religious attendance and illegal drug use have been on the rise. It would be a fallacy to conclude that therefore, religious attendance causes illegal drug use. It is also possible that drug use leads to an increase in religious attendance, or that both drug use and religious attendance are increased by a third variable, such as an increase in societal unrest. It is also possible that both variables are independent of one another, and it is mere coincidence that they are both increasing at the same time. "
If your logic were to be right then high taxes would be causing low homicide rates.
According to some more so than in the rest of the industrialized world.
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People who think like you and say such things really scary me , mean you like killing as well and proly are subconsciously also proon to it...
when we punish a killer , the idea is to remove him from society because he is a problem and danger to us, not to practise our own revange and sutisfy our own lust for blood ....
otherwise we are not any better
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life does not work. Look at the middle east, people kill people because of stuff that happened hundreds of years ago between the families.
Accept everyone for who they are. A world where love and peace exist is the best type of world anyone could wish for.
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
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So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
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So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
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So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
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So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
Okay, I don't know why you are stuck on this eye crap..Don't you freakin learn 6th grade social studies? Eye for an eye is saying, whatever you do, happens to you (in a simple term). I just believe these people either deserve to live behind bars or mabye the death sentence.
How the hell is saying questionably looking people stereotipical? So you're not around the best group of people, where this kind of thing would happen morre than in a better envirement.
But listen, there are people who do this shit. And when they do shit like kill people for no reason, you really don't think that they deserve a serious consequence? That's pathetic, for if nothing happens, and he spends 20 years behind bars where they give him food, clothing, etc. then America is too soft on crime,
Don't get me wrong, if something accidental happens, thenm of course this will noot be put into action. As wel as that, it has to be something serious (like killing an innocent man).
It is clear that you haven't watched the news or left your house in a while, for things like this (unfortunately) happen, and if gone unpunishable, or if the other kids gets away, then that is a problem. It is clear that you don't know, no matter how good or bad a person, that they can and may crack. There was a girl in our school, and this kid kept flicking erasers at her all clas.. She admitted that she wanted to take a gun to school and shoot him. I am not saying that peopel are either good or evil, but theyt have limits. Clearly what happened in the case of the man, he did nothing wrong, and the people were just "evil".
I'm done, for this is kind of off-topic..
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
So I stab you in the eye, and in return I lose an eye...I think that I wouldn't stab someone in the eye again
But still you stabbed someone in the eye to begin with.
Why is that?
Cause I hoped I could get away with it, but now I realize that I will probably get caught again.
What made you want to poke someones eye out in the first place?
This is hypthetical...hypotheticallym speaking...
cause i felt like it? I dunno
Yea, I was on to that.
But I was trying to get you back from lala-land where people have REASONS why they do stuff (like poking out eyes).
First of all, it doesn't have to be an eye. If I kill a man, I should die (especially with no motive)
But if we have to stay on eyes....
I was walking down the street with my girlfriend the other day. We live in a nice little town, but sometimes we have some questionable looking people around. So while we were walking, I say some perv looking at her from the other side of the street. This only bothered me a little, but when he whistled at her, I ran over. I argued with him a bit, but then he started insulting me, saying I was not good enough for my own girlfriend. I was very angered by this, as I am very much in love, and out of rage pulled my pocketknife out. I yelled, "look at my girlfriend now, perv!" and stabbed him in the eye. Realizing what I had done, I quickly ran back to my house and locked the doors.
Whew, I should write a fiction novel!
You assume that people are caricatures of err... people. That they're unmotivated and either "good" or "evil". Earlier you had a hypothetical person with no reasoning behind his actions.
You're also fond of stereotypes ("questionable looking people").
Two elements that tell me you don't really have a basis to judge complicated stuff. No offense.
Besides, every day countries prove that "an eye for an eye" doesn't yield the best results in crime-fighting.
Okay, I don't know why you are stuck on this eye crap..Don't you freakin learn 6th grade social studies? Eye for an eye is saying, whatever you do, happens to you (in a simple term). I just believe these people either deserve to live behind bars or mabye the death sentence.
How the hell is saying questionably looking people stereotipical? So you're not around the best group of people, where this kind of thing would happen morre than in a better envirement.
But listen, there are people who do this shit. And when they do shit like kill people for no reason, you really don't think that they deserve a serious consequence? That's pathetic, for if nothing happens, and he spends 20 years behind bars where they give him food, clothing, etc. then America is too soft on crime,
Don't get me wrong, if something accidental happens, thenm of course this will noot be put into action. As wel as that, it has to be something serious (like killing an innocent man).
It is clear that you haven't watched the news or left your house in a while, for things like this (unfortunately) happen, and if gone unpunishable, or if the other kids gets away, then that is a problem. It is clear that you don't know, no matter how good or bad a person, that they can and may crack. There was a girl in our school, and this kid kept flicking erasers at her all clas.. She admitted that she wanted to take a gun to school and shoot him. I am not saying that peopel are either good or evil, but theyt have limits. Clearly what happened in the case of the man, he did nothing wrong, and the people were just "evil".
I'm done, for this is kind of off-topic..
What those people deserve is something subjective. What they need and more importantly what society needs (they're strangely related tho) is an entirely different matter. I know the an eye for an eye proverb, yes. It's yet another proof that something that sounds good isn't necessarily correct.
I think it's pretty much obvious that people who look questionable don't have to be questionable. IMHO (also a bit due to personal experience) people who look normal are the least to be trusted because you know least what you can expect from them.
But maybe this too is subjective. Perhaps you're a xenophobe and I'm a xenophile or perhas it's not that simple. I simply think that you having an opinion about what is "questionable" and what is not reveals a great deal about how you think.
And you prove my point. "And when they do shit like kill people for no reason"
Why do you assume anyone ever kills for no reason? We're animals. We don't act (consume energy) if there's not a damn good reason. We do everything for a reason. Even if that reason is completely incomprehensible for other people. There is no "evil" that compels people to go and kill. The world isn't that simple.
I'm pretty sure (proof of that are countries with capital punishment) that people who don't think like you or anyone else does care very little about the consequences. Murderers rarely have a good grasp of the consequences.
I've already provided you with a link more or less explaining that capital punishment isn't necessarily cheaper than imprisonment for life.
It's also perfectly obvious that capital punishment isn't much of a deterrent. If you want I can also point out that if there's one thing that kills innocent people then it's the death penalty. As far as I see it there is no advantage to capital punishment. Save maybe that it's comforts people who have a simplistic view on the world. (no pun intended)
Punishment is not much of a deterrence (and most certainly not when you "snap"). Like you said yourself. The girl in your school wanted to have a gun. She didn't consider the consequences.
So what to do about crime? Prevent it. Because otherwise society will never win. Every time a crime is committed then society suffers. Every time there are victims and almost every time someone gets punsihed, which turns him/her in yet another victim. Punishment doesn't mend the damage, it's just deepens the wound. Many countries are attempting to adopt damage control (by, for example, rehabilitation) and in some areas damage prevention. It's proving to work better than the old-fashioned revenge based system where prisons are universities for crime and even the smallest sentence is a life sentence.
You might realize this when you have cast off the yoke of 6th grade social class.
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What are your psychological qualifications to make a judgement such as "Sociopaths cannot be 'rehabilitated.'"? I'm afraid to say that there is a drastic amount of evidence to the contrary, based upon the same techniques that can 'cure' people of Autism and severe forms of depression. There is no difference. The patient may be less inclined to -want- to change, which may mean that MOST "Sociopaths cannot be 'rehabilitated.', BUT some can.
In response to your other paragraph, I agree with not putting them to death. I also don't feel that sentences should be given. Rehabilitation targets should. As stated, most will not accept help even if it's there, and thus they will end up locked up permanently. If, however, progress is made, why should someone not be given the chance to live a real life now that their nature is different? You accept, in stating that they shouldn't be put to death, that it's not their responsibility that they were like that, so ultimately if they're a 'different' person after years of rehabilitating treatment, why should they be held responsible for what they did when they knew nothing else?
I tend to agree that people should have to sacrifice what they made someone else sacrifice, but I disagree about accidents. If an accident was caused by negligence, then yes, they should receive the same punishment as if it were intentional, because arguably it was. They knew the possibility was there because of their negligence, but did not change their behaviour. If an accident was entirely accidental - ridiculous things that somehow do happen like tripping over, knocking something over causing someone to break a limb or possibly even die - I think punishment for that is questionable entirely, let alone giving the same punishment as if they'd meant to break their leg or kill them. If you stumble on the street and bump into someone, you don't expect them to floor your for it - and if they did, you'd have them charged with assault, because accidents are accidents. People somehow have a misguided impression that the worse the outcome of the accident, the less of an accident it was, and thus the more punishment should be received; this simply isn't true though - accidents, by definition, aren't intentional or avoidable. Arguably it's a VERY immature thing to seek punishment for accidental behaviour (see Piaget's Ink blobs experiments).
And yes you can. Homicide rates are compared per person, not per country. In fact, you can generally also get the statistics based on population density (to counter the 'well no canadians kill, because it's fucking freezing to get to the next person's house to kill the owners' thing.)
Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Because you can't take the other variables into account.
Simply comparing percentages isn't conclusive unless all laws, politics, and social structures are the constant. Yes, the numbers show a difference in murder rates, but my point is that the US rates won't necessarily decline if it starts doing everything like Norway.
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Why not? Of course one should only look at murder rates per capita.
Because you can't take the other variables into account.
Simply comparing percentages isn't conclusive unless all laws, politics, and social structures are the constant. Yes, the numbers show a difference in murder rates, but my point is that the US rates won't necessarily decline if it starts doing everything like Norway.
Of course that is true. But unless people in the US and Norway are radically different from each other it would seem that Norway is at least doing something better than the US.
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