Invisible walls usually means the "Linear Bread Crumb Trail" formula. Shall we refresh our memories from childhood? Your fighting your way through a "PATH" in a jungle and low and behold.......there is a fork. "OMG, what shall I do?????" Insert childhood memory......" Eenie beenie catch a meanie, Ahh boo bumble beenie, Atchie batchie boob-a-lachie, OUT goes you!" Whoo Hoo...... I'll go....... "LEFT!" Maybe the next time around....... let me think...... yes..... next time I'll go RIGHT! ~Hairysun~
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
Ive played two games without invisible walls, SWG and Vanguard.
Both games allowed total freedom of movement, but there was costs for that, in SWG you could go anywhere, but you couldnt jump, or get on top of buildings because there was an invisible barrier on the top of them. So there was still limits.
Vanguard had major chunking which cause a few seconds of loading between areas breaking the immersive feel even in a open world environement.
Do you guys get what im saying? Developers have to sacrafice one thing for another, its just the way it works.
-jive
True, and i have the feeling AoC will have a good mix of freedom and performance.
Well I for one don't really give a flying frask about invisible walls or not. I pre-ordered, and will keep it pre-ordered, and won't let some minor element of the game dictate my thoughts about it as a whole.
So you can't explore that mountain top or whatever (like in that valley video that was leaked), fine.. chances are since theres a wall there, there is nothing to explore and discover up there anyway.
Now if the rest of the game is full of other minor elements that turn out to be annoying, then perhaps they will build up and break it for me... dunno. But I am not going to get out of the way of a pebble if there's no avalanche behind it.
Not exactly, you're not fighting your way thru a path. "Invisible walls" might be present, but not in that way. You still are free to explore, and u can explore alot in every zone, but you can get into a new zone only by passing an entrance, so invisible walls only deny u from getting from zone to zone while swimming, climbing etc. Thats how i see it, and thats why the world isn't seamless.
Perhaps definitions vary.....invisible walls to me channel you down a path that is, yes, determined by the devs. A complete and total lack of freedom to make choices outside of the occasional fork in the road. The epitome of single player games....
I just came from reading a democratic political blog... And you people are nuts. You make people who follow politics looks sane. You make pundits sounds reasonable... ...Invisible walls? People are getting upset that there may be invisible walls in a game? So upset that they're canceling preorders and utterly writing off a game they've been following for months or years? Invisible walls have been in virtually every 3d game ever made. And all MMOs I can think of, including AC. So I suggest you all calm down until you hear that there might be something unusual about the use of invisible walls in this game as compared to others(All I've seen is blown out of proportion rumour mongering).
yes but we are tame compared to conservative republicans....those guys are off the edge of the map
Ive played two games without invisible walls, SWG and Vanguard.
Both games allowed total freedom of movement, but there was costs for that, in SWG you could go anywhere, but you couldnt jump, or get on top of buildings because there was an invisible barrier on the top of them. So there was still limits.
Vanguard had major chunking which cause a few seconds of loading between areas breaking the immersive feel even in a open world environement.
Do you guys get what im saying? Developers have to sacrafice one thing for another, its just the way it works.
-jive
Actually you only played one game without invisible walls, Vanguard. SWG had invisible walls, 4 on each planet, and I'm not referring to the limits you mentioned.
Invisible walls usually means the "Linear Bread Crumb Trail" formula. Shall we refresh our memories from childhood? Your fighting your way through a "PATH" in a jungle and low and behold.......there is a fork. "OMG, what shall I do?????" Insert childhood memory......" Eenie beenie catch a meanie, Ahh boo bumble beenie, Atchie batchie boob-a-lachie, OUT goes you!" Whoo Hoo...... I'll go....... "LEFT!" Maybe the next time around....... let me think...... yes..... next time I'll go RIGHT! ~Hairysun~
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
Yep, map boundaries......you can see all kinds of stuff in the distance. Trees, hills, mountains.....etc. You will however never be able to get to them because of invisible walls that the devs use to channel you. It is a cop out method used to make small zones "APPEAR" larger than they really are.
Not exactly, you're not fighting your way thru a path. "Invisible walls" might be present, but not in that way. You still are free to explore, and u can explore alot in every zone, but you can get into a new zone only by passing an entrance, so invisible walls only deny u from getting from zone to zone while swimming, climbing etc. Thats how i see it, and thats why the world isn't seamless.
Perhaps definitions vary.....invisible walls to me channel you down a path that is, yes, determined by the devs. A complete and total lack of freedom to make choices outside of the occasional fork in the road. The epitome of single player games....
~Hairysun~
I can't see how you fear such a thing if u watch any beta leak on youtube you'll see it's not like that you can swim/climb/run/jump. I personally think alot of posts are giving a lot of importance to a minor issue (for some).
TBH, it sounds like a bunch of WAR fanbois are pissy that their game got delayed and everyone was looking at playing AoC instead.
I kind of expect there to be SOME zone restriction. I mean, look at the game's graphics....if the game was a seamless environment, you'd log in and deal with slide-show FPS.
But it really seems to me that this is being blown WAY out of proportion by people who want to discourage people from playing AoC, for one reason or another.
I have to agree. AoC has always been advertised as a zoned game. No surprise at all that there are invisible zone lines. I'm sure they'll eventually be covered up with greenery and such. There are a lot more things to be worried about that zone lines in this game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
TBH, it sounds like a bunch of WAR fanbois are pissy that their game got delayed and everyone was looking at playing AoC instead. I kind of expect there to be SOME zone restriction. I mean, look at the game's graphics....if the game was a seamless environment, you'd log in and deal with slide-show FPS. But it really seems to me that this is being blown WAY out of proportion by people who want to discourage people from playing AoC, for one reason or another.
I agree
But I still think people are confusing the first few levels (which are linear because they are used as an intro/tutorial) being a 1 path deal, with the rest of the game that will be more open. Almost every game makes use of zone boarders/invis walls in some form or another (with the exception being VG as far as I have noticed, unless you discount chunking) even WoW.
The intent was the first 20 levels of AoC were made to be a tutorial type single playerish area. They want you to learn the basics in those levels, so it makes sense that you wouldn't be given free reign.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Invisible walls usually means the "Linear Bread Crumb Trail" formula. Shall we refresh our memories from childhood? Your fighting your way through a "PATH" in a jungle and low and behold.......there is a fork. "OMG, what shall I do?????" Insert childhood memory......" Eenie beenie catch a meanie, Ahh boo bumble beenie, Atchie batchie boob-a-lachie, OUT goes you!" Whoo Hoo...... I'll go....... "LEFT!" Maybe the next time around....... let me think...... yes..... next time I'll go RIGHT! ~Hairysun~
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
Yep, map boundaries......you can see all kinds of stuff in the distance. Trees, hills, mountains.....etc. You will however never be able to get to them because of invisible walls that the devs use to channel you. It is a cop out method used to make small zones "APPEAR" larger than they really are.
Gauntlet? sigh.....
~Hairysun~
Hate to have to break it to you, but since there's only ever been one MMO(Vanguard+hitches) that hasn't had them and the fact that the entire tripleA gaming industry plans to, atleast, multi-platform their future titles. It would seem that invisible walls are the first price that pc players will have to pay.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
Disclaimer - its pretty old leak, but some things might be still valid. Enjoy wall of text
World Design
Oh yeah, this subject again. I think Funcom made some very poor choices, very poor. I'm not going to even go into all the "zenes are too linear" argument, but I'm gonna concentrate on less discussed points of world design. For one, I hate their mob placement, throught the game, I outright hate it and it makes absolutely no sense. Also, mob density + respawn rate sucks in a lot of zones. Let me back up a little to mob placement. There are two things at are outright out of place/wrong with the way mobs are placed. 1. AoC devs thought that it would make more sense to place most of the mobs around pathways/roads, instead of placing them deeper inside the zone. It absolutely makes no sense for me to cut straight through the desert/wood and encounter A LOT LESS mobs than I would encounter if I used the main road/path. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes any sense and I hope it gets reworked by launch. 2. Cramped mobs. This is extremely extremely bad in some zones. I think Eiglopean(sp?) Mountains is the worst example of this. At one spot in EM, there is a thorn down structure of sorts. Imagine a rectangle, divided in two. In one half there are humanoid NPCs (Vanir?), and in other half are wild apes. Density of both mobs areas (rooms) is just stupid, they are on top of one another, yet outside of the stricture there are no mobs (keep in mind that this is torn down structures, with tallest wall being shoulder high, and angle high in some places, I don't see why mobs wouldn't roam outside of this structure, or why is there so many of them in the rooms. Now, the worst part is, the wall that divides these two rooms is knee-high at most!! You are telling me that a wild ape or human can not jump over a knee-high (sometimes lower) wall? Also, in EM for example, Pcitish camp full of canibal picts is within spitting distance of the main village! That just doesn't feel realistic and it looks silly.
2nd problem that AoC has is loading screens. First of all, I've only played WoW for about 4 months when it first came out, and that is the only MMO which I've played that has real seemless world. Point being that I'm used to zones and non-seemless world. CoH/V is one of my favorite games, and there is small million of instances in that game. So what's different about AoC? Simple, it takes way too long to load, and each loading screen will potencially decrease your performance dramatically (hopefully this will be fixed by launch). I can load CoH/V zone in 5 - 7 secs (less if I've been there before), but it takes 35 - 90 secs (usually around 50 secs) to load AoC zone on the same system. There is also great amount of instances in AoC, some which make no sense. For example, in tortage you get a quest from a drunken pirate to go inside of hi house and do whatever. The house is right there next to him. You enter his house and you are hit with loading screen, wait 30 secs, it loads, you talk to whoever/take whatever in 10 secs, and than you head back, you are hit with another 50 seconds loading screen. And after you get back into Tortage, you get corrupt chess-board looking textures because of the memory leak. That's just poor design. They could have at least pre-loaded all houses with the zone (like they did with Thirsty Dogg Inn). That's just one example, and very annoying. Hopefully they will fix some of this by launch, but I'm not gonna hold my breath for it.
3rd I hate the fact that I can't go up 45 degreez hill (number might not be correct, but to a naked eye I'm restricted of climbing/walking up the hill which would not present the slightest problem in real life, it just doesn't feel natureal).
Edit : Another intersting post
But as the poster above me explained, the engine was designed with instancing in mind. That was the first and biggest mistake in this instance, no pun intended. But keeping all of that in mind, it's not zoning that will cause failure. It's the lack of travel, the lack of exploration, the lack of a world. If you zoned into an area the size of, for the sake of comparison - The Barrens from WoW, then went and zoned into another area similar in size; everything is peachy. But when you zone into an area not 1/2 that size, not 1/4 that size, not even 1/5 that size and they are all that small, then you have problems. When you see a forest in front of you but cannot go explore it because of a invisible wall sitting in front of you, then you have problems. When one of the largest port cities in the world is the size of, here is another comparison - an outpost, then you have problems. The engine 'may' be the problem, in which case there is not much that can be done. But I am hoping the engine isn't the problem, I don't mind load screens. I am hoping the areas can be opened up, rather it be in patches or game updates. "IF" they can hold on to enough subscribers at launch to gather the funds needed to do such..that's where the doom statements come in.
TBH, it sounds like a bunch of WAR fanbois are pissy that their game got delayed and everyone was looking at playing AoC instead. I kind of expect there to be SOME zone restriction. I mean, look at the game's graphics....if the game was a seamless environment, you'd log in and deal with slide-show FPS. But it really seems to me that this is being blown WAY out of proportion by people who want to discourage people from playing AoC, for one reason or another.
I agree
But I still think people are confusing the first few levels (which are linear because they are used as an intro/tutorial) being a 1 path deal, with the rest of the game that will be more open. Almost every game makes use of zone boarders/invis walls in some form or another (with the exception being VG as far as I have noticed, unless you discount chunking) even WoW.
The intent was the first 20 levels of AoC were made to be a tutorial type single playerish area. They want you to learn the basics in those levels, so it makes sense that you wouldn't be given free reign.
that's a good point too. Hadn't even thought of that.
I don't know if people really understand this subject... I've been seeing a lot using the existince of any kind of invisible walls as evidence that all games will have the same limitations as the ones being argued are in AoC. I don't believe you can use such broad strokes with the term.
Most mmos have SOME kind of invisible wall, yes. But the definining factor is, where and to what extent?
Consider the game hellgate london. You had freedom to move around back and forth on the path that was given, and you could see a lot of graphical artwork that was done outside of that path.. you really had to if you wanted to feel like you were in an actual city and not just plopped down in an instance. You could see all the other ruined buildings that looked nice, but you couldn't get to them, they were just to create the atmosphere. Guild wars has a similar system.
Than compare that to the invisible walls of say LoTRO or WoW. The invisible walls dont exist around paths, they exist around the zone. But within that zone, you can go whereever you like. The zones were usually square or rectangular (this is important because you need that kind of dimensioning to feel like you have some degree of freedom.)
I think the real question is, does AoC have Path based invisible walls like hellgate, or Zone based invisible walls like other mmos? If there is a forest in AoC, can I actually move through the trees, or do I have to stick to the paths and trails that funcom has explicitly programmed in?
Actually I think thats another good way of thinking about it... did Funcom design the ZONE first and let you free roam, or did they design the paths first and then the rest of the environment sprung up around it? The two design methodologies will result in a completely different feel in regards to immersion and freedom.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
OK.....my definition of invisible walls may be the problem here. I'm not talking about walls that prevent you from walking off the edge of the perceivable world. Nor am I talking about walls(for lack of a better word) that define the various zones within said world.
I am talking about invisible walls that channel you through a zone. They may be in front of a hill or a wall of trees, any number of senarios. You can go forward.....or you can go back......period. (aside from the occasional fork) Yes, these walls completely and totally break immersion for me.
Someone said "Yes, the first 20 levels are absolutely this way but after that the world opens up." Not my ideal game play....but....it is what it is.
Additionally I know the completely open world seems to be a thing of the past. One can only hope a dev see's the light one day.
and for the record.....I'm no pissy WoW fan....I mean WAR fan. : )
Well the thing is that people think AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. You are foolish to think that AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. From what I gather from AoC info is that the game is more for PvE lovers. Sure the game has sieges, so does Shadowbane and many free to play asian mmo's, its nothing new. Its a shame that so many PvP guilds, PvP lovers are going to say why the hell did I buy this World of Warcraft-Guild Wars hybrid clone.
They are looking to make cash from Conan fans who have read the comics and love the movies. They do not want Conan fans to get owned by other players and quit the game only to talk smack so other Conan fans dont play. PvP is going to be choice like most all mmo's out or in the makes. All you need do is watch some dev made videos to get the idea. In all the dev videos I have watched, the game breathes WoW and GW to the core.
Well the thing is that people think AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. You are foolish to think that AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. From what I gather from AoC info is that the game is more for PvE lovers. Sure the game has sieges, so does Shadowbane and many free to play asian mmo's, its nothing new. Its a shame that so many PvP guilds, PvP lovers are going to say why the hell did I buy this World of Warcraft-Guild Wars hybrid clone. They are looking to make cash from Conan fans who have read the comics and love the movies. They do not want Conan fans to get owned by other players and quit the game only to talk smack so other Conan fans dont play. PvP is going to be choice like most all mmo's out or in the makes. All you need do is watch some dev made videos to get the idea. In all the dev videos I have watched, the game breathes WoW and GW to the core.
Then it makes no sense for them to have FFA pvp servers.
I think.. - self-explanatory use your own judgement. WoW, CoH/V - understood but they aren't AoC. Tortage - did he ever get past it? corrupt chess-board looking textures because of the memory leak. it just doesn't feel natureal). - always sucks but it's in beta, Sh*t happens. I am hoping the areas can be opened up, rather it be in patches or game updates - that was their intent with Hyboria from concept on, atleast, in terms of more game content. "IF" they can hold on to enough subscribers at launch to gather the funds needed to do such..that's where the doom statements come in. - fair assessment of anything under production but still subjective and out of date, by over 6months. We'll have to see for ourselves.
I felt a need to do this. It's just the main points, as I see them, in that old leak. I'm not in this closed beta and I have questions, too. But if unofficial beta info. is older than 2weeks, the hell with it.
@ Hairy' About a break in the Immersion, I hate it, as well. As for the big budget devs, I hope so too but there will be Indy Corp.'s to turn to if they don't. .../nod
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
I'm sure when the open beta invites start and people see for themselves the game, they will make up their minds on their own on whether they like it and whether the developer choices interfere or enhance their gameplay experience.
Your few first posts, I could agree with as they seemed like concerns. The last one is all make up. If you're so adamant about something, better have first hand experience about things. When you don't and you're spoon fed misinformation, then you look funny to those with a clearer view of the situation.
Forgetting for a second Tortage, the rest of the areas are surrounded by impassable mountains, big ancient structures or other natural obscurities. Yes, they try their best to cover the fact that you're in a zone and the areas between the zones are not connected directly. Yes, I would love myself if this wasn't the case but that's how they made the game. Since I played AO, I knew what to expect so it wasn't an utter shock for me.
Right now you will find pathing glitches all over the map. Some you can jump over (some invisible object sticking out of the ground), some you can run around and some you can navigate via the /stuck command. Because they are bugs and not by design. And they get erased with every build, so the ancient builds you're referring to don't matter much.
They patch roughly every 10 days. Each patch is 500MB in size on average with patches over 1.2G in size coming on concurrent patch dates. That puts most NDA breakers at least 10 builds behind the present situation. No, the present situation is not all flowers and candy, new bugs are introduced with every build and some of the old are not resolved. But that's what's the beta is all about. Solving problems.
One last thing. At this point I hate fantasy, had enough of it for the last decade, with only AO as a change of scenery in between. I still like this game though, I like the direction it is headed and I understand the limitations it has. First hand experience is the best advice I can give to anyone considering the game. By all means don't pre-order. There is no reason to give money to any game before it launches. I never buy special editions either but that's again my choice to make.
Check the game before you commit yourselves. MMOs are supposed to be a commitment over time. Myself, if I don't see me staying for over a year, I don't bother.
And don't forget to say hi from the FFA PvP server if you're lucky I guess. 80 and counting.
My advice to people is to wait until the NDA is lifted and open beta has started. I would not trust beta leak information, specially if it's negative. If the person dislikes the game the information posted in most regards will be negative and biased. The majority of people who like the game and are in general beta will not post info incase they get caught and get booted from beta.
I know it's nit picking but the posters that stated that Vanguard has not got any invisible walls are wrong. Take a boat out to sea and you will bang into a nice invisible wall.
i havent played beta but im pretty sure they took the AO zoning system which uses invisible walls too, yes it is annoying, but i still played AO for 3 years, to avoid running into invisible walls look at the map carefully
well at least i think thats their system, i might be wrong
actually the ppl who complain that they dont feel like being in hyboria.. thats a serious issue, zones are too small? too lvl dependent? i say throw some bosses in the map ^^
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Comments
Yes Hairy', AoC=Gaunlet(the 2d quarter eater). lol
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
True, and i have the feeling AoC will have a good mix of freedom and performance.
Well I for one don't really give a flying frask about invisible walls or not. I pre-ordered, and will keep it pre-ordered, and won't let some minor element of the game dictate my thoughts about it as a whole.
So you can't explore that mountain top or whatever (like in that valley video that was leaked), fine.. chances are since theres a wall there, there is nothing to explore and discover up there anyway.
Now if the rest of the game is full of other minor elements that turn out to be annoying, then perhaps they will build up and break it for me... dunno. But I am not going to get out of the way of a pebble if there's no avalanche behind it.
~Hairysun~
http://www.straightdope.com/
yes but we are tame compared to conservative republicans....those guys are off the edge of the map
Actually you only played one game without invisible walls, Vanguard. SWG had invisible walls, 4 on each planet, and I'm not referring to the limits you mentioned.
Yes Hairy', AoC=Gaunlet(the 2d quarter eater). lol
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
Yep, map boundaries......you can see all kinds of stuff in the distance. Trees, hills, mountains.....etc. You will however never be able to get to them because of invisible walls that the devs use to channel you. It is a cop out method used to make small zones "APPEAR" larger than they really are.Gauntlet? sigh.....
~Hairysun~
http://www.straightdope.com/
~Hairysun~
I can't see how you fear such a thing if u watch any beta leak on youtube you'll see it's not like that you can swim/climb/run/jump. I personally think alot of posts are giving a lot of importance to a minor issue (for some).
TBH, it sounds like a bunch of WAR fanbois are pissy that their game got delayed and everyone was looking at playing AoC instead.
I kind of expect there to be SOME zone restriction. I mean, look at the game's graphics....if the game was a seamless environment, you'd log in and deal with slide-show FPS.
But it really seems to me that this is being blown WAY out of proportion by people who want to discourage people from playing AoC, for one reason or another.
I have to agree. AoC has always been advertised as a zoned game. No surprise at all that there are invisible zone lines. I'm sure they'll eventually be covered up with greenery and such. There are a lot more things to be worried about that zone lines in this game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I agree
But I still think people are confusing the first few levels (which are linear because they are used as an intro/tutorial) being a 1 path deal, with the rest of the game that will be more open. Almost every game makes use of zone boarders/invis walls in some form or another (with the exception being VG as far as I have noticed, unless you discount chunking) even WoW.
The intent was the first 20 levels of AoC were made to be a tutorial type single playerish area. They want you to learn the basics in those levels, so it makes sense that you wouldn't be given free reign.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Yes Hairy', AoC=Gaunlet(the 2d quarter eater). lol
.."Usually means..linear crumb trail"? Since when?
It's always been a term for map boundries, plain and simple, and yep developers decide where they go, in the game. ...It's their job.
Yep, map boundaries......you can see all kinds of stuff in the distance. Trees, hills, mountains.....etc. You will however never be able to get to them because of invisible walls that the devs use to channel you. It is a cop out method used to make small zones "APPEAR" larger than they really are.Gauntlet? sigh.....
~Hairysun~
Hate to have to break it to you, but since there's only ever been one MMO(Vanguard+hitches) that hasn't had them and the fact that the entire tripleA gaming industry plans to, atleast, multi-platform their future titles. It would seem that invisible walls are the first price that pc players will have to pay.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
Disclaimer - its pretty old leak, but some things might be still valid. Enjoy wall of text
World Design
Oh yeah, this subject again. I think Funcom made some very poor choices, very poor. I'm not going to even go into all the "zenes are too linear" argument, but I'm gonna concentrate on less discussed points of world design. For one, I hate their mob placement, throught the game, I outright hate it and it makes absolutely no sense. Also, mob density + respawn rate sucks in a lot of zones. Let me back up a little to mob placement. There are two things at are outright out of place/wrong with the way mobs are placed. 1. AoC devs thought that it would make more sense to place most of the mobs around pathways/roads, instead of placing them deeper inside the zone. It absolutely makes no sense for me to cut straight through the desert/wood and encounter A LOT LESS mobs than I would encounter if I used the main road/path. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes any sense and I hope it gets reworked by launch. 2. Cramped mobs. This is extremely extremely bad in some zones. I think Eiglopean(sp?) Mountains is the worst example of this. At one spot in EM, there is a thorn down structure of sorts. Imagine a rectangle, divided in two. In one half there are humanoid NPCs (Vanir?), and in other half are wild apes. Density of both mobs areas (rooms) is just stupid, they are on top of one another, yet outside of the stricture there are no mobs (keep in mind that this is torn down structures, with tallest wall being shoulder high, and angle high in some places, I don't see why mobs wouldn't roam outside of this structure, or why is there so many of them in the rooms. Now, the worst part is, the wall that divides these two rooms is knee-high at most!! You are telling me that a wild ape or human can not jump over a knee-high (sometimes lower) wall? Also, in EM for example, Pcitish camp full of canibal picts is within spitting distance of the main village! That just doesn't feel realistic and it looks silly.
2nd problem that AoC has is loading screens. First of all, I've only played WoW for about 4 months when it first came out, and that is the only MMO which I've played that has real seemless world. Point being that I'm used to zones and non-seemless world. CoH/V is one of my favorite games, and there is small million of instances in that game. So what's different about AoC? Simple, it takes way too long to load, and each loading screen will potencially decrease your performance dramatically (hopefully this will be fixed by launch). I can load CoH/V zone in 5 - 7 secs (less if I've been there before), but it takes 35 - 90 secs (usually around 50 secs) to load AoC zone on the same system. There is also great amount of instances in AoC, some which make no sense. For example, in tortage you get a quest from a drunken pirate to go inside of hi house and do whatever. The house is right there next to him. You enter his house and you are hit with loading screen, wait 30 secs, it loads, you talk to whoever/take whatever in 10 secs, and than you head back, you are hit with another 50 seconds loading screen. And after you get back into Tortage, you get corrupt chess-board looking textures because of the memory leak. That's just poor design. They could have at least pre-loaded all houses with the zone (like they did with Thirsty Dogg Inn). That's just one example, and very annoying. Hopefully they will fix some of this by launch, but I'm not gonna hold my breath for it.
3rd I hate the fact that I can't go up 45 degreez hill (number might not be correct, but to a naked eye I'm restricted of climbing/walking up the hill which would not present the slightest problem in real life, it just doesn't feel natureal).
Edit : Another intersting post
But as the poster above me explained, the engine was designed with instancing in mind. That was the first and biggest mistake in this instance, no pun intended. But keeping all of that in mind, it's not zoning that will cause failure. It's the lack of travel, the lack of exploration, the lack of a world. If you zoned into an area the size of, for the sake of comparison - The Barrens from WoW, then went and zoned into another area similar in size; everything is peachy. But when you zone into an area not 1/2 that size, not 1/4 that size, not even 1/5 that size and they are all that small, then you have problems. When you see a forest in front of you but cannot go explore it because of a invisible wall sitting in front of you, then you have problems. When one of the largest port cities in the world is the size of, here is another comparison - an outpost, then you have problems. The engine 'may' be the problem, in which case there is not much that can be done. But I am hoping the engine isn't the problem, I don't mind load screens. I am hoping the areas can be opened up, rather it be in patches or game updates. "IF" they can hold on to enough subscribers at launch to gather the funds needed to do such..that's where the doom statements come in.
I agree
But I still think people are confusing the first few levels (which are linear because they are used as an intro/tutorial) being a 1 path deal, with the rest of the game that will be more open. Almost every game makes use of zone boarders/invis walls in some form or another (with the exception being VG as far as I have noticed, unless you discount chunking) even WoW.
The intent was the first 20 levels of AoC were made to be a tutorial type single playerish area. They want you to learn the basics in those levels, so it makes sense that you wouldn't be given free reign.
that's a good point too. Hadn't even thought of that.
I don't know if people really understand this subject... I've been seeing a lot using the existince of any kind of invisible walls as evidence that all games will have the same limitations as the ones being argued are in AoC. I don't believe you can use such broad strokes with the term.
Most mmos have SOME kind of invisible wall, yes. But the definining factor is, where and to what extent?
Consider the game hellgate london. You had freedom to move around back and forth on the path that was given, and you could see a lot of graphical artwork that was done outside of that path.. you really had to if you wanted to feel like you were in an actual city and not just plopped down in an instance. You could see all the other ruined buildings that looked nice, but you couldn't get to them, they were just to create the atmosphere. Guild wars has a similar system.
Than compare that to the invisible walls of say LoTRO or WoW. The invisible walls dont exist around paths, they exist around the zone. But within that zone, you can go whereever you like. The zones were usually square or rectangular (this is important because you need that kind of dimensioning to feel like you have some degree of freedom.)
I think the real question is, does AoC have Path based invisible walls like hellgate, or Zone based invisible walls like other mmos? If there is a forest in AoC, can I actually move through the trees, or do I have to stick to the paths and trails that funcom has explicitly programmed in?
Actually I think thats another good way of thinking about it... did Funcom design the ZONE first and let you free roam, or did they design the paths first and then the rest of the environment sprung up around it? The two design methodologies will result in a completely different feel in regards to immersion and freedom.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
I agree w/the OP
OK.....my definition of invisible walls may be the problem here. I'm not talking about walls that prevent you from walking off the edge of the perceivable world. Nor am I talking about walls(for lack of a better word) that define the various zones within said world.
I am talking about invisible walls that channel you through a zone. They may be in front of a hill or a wall of trees, any number of senarios. You can go forward.....or you can go back......period. (aside from the occasional fork) Yes, these walls completely and totally break immersion for me.
Someone said "Yes, the first 20 levels are absolutely this way but after that the world opens up." Not my ideal game play....but....it is what it is.
Additionally I know the completely open world seems to be a thing of the past. One can only hope a dev see's the light one day.
and for the record.....I'm no pissy WoW fan....I mean WAR fan. : )
~Hairysun~
http://www.straightdope.com/
Well the thing is that people think AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. You are foolish to think that AoC is a hardcore PvP mmo. From what I gather from AoC info is that the game is more for PvE lovers. Sure the game has sieges, so does Shadowbane and many free to play asian mmo's, its nothing new. Its a shame that so many PvP guilds, PvP lovers are going to say why the hell did I buy this World of Warcraft-Guild Wars hybrid clone.
They are looking to make cash from Conan fans who have read the comics and love the movies. They do not want Conan fans to get owned by other players and quit the game only to talk smack so other Conan fans dont play. PvP is going to be choice like most all mmo's out or in the makes. All you need do is watch some dev made videos to get the idea. In all the dev videos I have watched, the game breathes WoW and GW to the core.
Then it makes no sense for them to have FFA pvp servers.
Originally posted by spaceghost77
Disclaimer - its pretty old leak
- yep
I think.. - self-explanatory use your own judgement.
WoW, CoH/V - understood but they aren't AoC.
Tortage - did he ever get past it?
corrupt chess-board looking textures because of the memory leak.
it just doesn't feel natureal). - always sucks but it's in beta, Sh*t happens.
I am hoping the areas can be opened up, rather it be in patches or game updates - that was their intent with Hyboria from concept on, atleast, in terms of more game content.
"IF" they can hold on to enough subscribers at launch to gather the funds needed to do such..that's where the doom statements come in. - fair assessment of anything under production but still subjective and out of date, by over 6months. We'll have to see for ourselves.
I felt a need to do this. It's just the main points, as I see them, in that old leak. I'm not in this closed beta and I have questions, too. But if unofficial beta info. is older than 2weeks, the hell with it.
@ Hairy'
About a break in the Immersion, I hate it, as well. As for the big budget devs, I hope so too but there will be Indy Corp.'s to turn to if they don't. .../nod
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
I'm sure when the open beta invites start and people see for themselves the game, they will make up their minds on their own on whether they like it and whether the developer choices interfere or enhance their gameplay experience.
To Hairysun :
Your few first posts, I could agree with as they seemed like concerns. The last one is all make up. If you're so adamant about something, better have first hand experience about things. When you don't and you're spoon fed misinformation, then you look funny to those with a clearer view of the situation.
Forgetting for a second Tortage, the rest of the areas are surrounded by impassable mountains, big ancient structures or other natural obscurities. Yes, they try their best to cover the fact that you're in a zone and the areas between the zones are not connected directly. Yes, I would love myself if this wasn't the case but that's how they made the game. Since I played AO, I knew what to expect so it wasn't an utter shock for me.
Right now you will find pathing glitches all over the map. Some you can jump over (some invisible object sticking out of the ground), some you can run around and some you can navigate via the /stuck command. Because they are bugs and not by design. And they get erased with every build, so the ancient builds you're referring to don't matter much.
They patch roughly every 10 days. Each patch is 500MB in size on average with patches over 1.2G in size coming on concurrent patch dates. That puts most NDA breakers at least 10 builds behind the present situation. No, the present situation is not all flowers and candy, new bugs are introduced with every build and some of the old are not resolved. But that's what's the beta is all about. Solving problems.
One last thing. At this point I hate fantasy, had enough of it for the last decade, with only AO as a change of scenery in between. I still like this game though, I like the direction it is headed and I understand the limitations it has. First hand experience is the best advice I can give to anyone considering the game. By all means don't pre-order. There is no reason to give money to any game before it launches. I never buy special editions either but that's again my choice to make.
Check the game before you commit yourselves. MMOs are supposed to be a commitment over time. Myself, if I don't see me staying for over a year, I don't bother.
And don't forget to say hi from the FFA PvP server if you're lucky I guess. 80 and counting.
My advice to people is to wait until the NDA is lifted and open beta has started. I would not trust beta leak information, specially if it's negative. If the person dislikes the game the information posted in most regards will be negative and biased. The majority of people who like the game and are in general beta will not post info incase they get caught and get booted from beta.
I know it's nit picking but the posters that stated that Vanguard has not got any invisible walls are wrong. Take a boat out to sea and you will bang into a nice invisible wall.
i havent played beta but im pretty sure they took the AO zoning system which uses invisible walls too, yes it is annoying, but i still played AO for 3 years, to avoid running into invisible walls look at the map carefully
well at least i think thats their system, i might be wrong
actually the ppl who complain that they dont feel like being in hyboria.. thats a serious issue, zones are too small? too lvl dependent? i say throw some bosses in the map ^^
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)