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Ignoring the lesson Blizzard taught?
De4th_M0nKee
Member Posts: 203
I truly believe that the latest crop of mmos that have launched and the crops that WILL launch post WoW have ignored the biggest lesson to be gleaned from what Blizzard accomplished. That most important lesson is "You don't have to re-invent the wheel". Meaning if a game currently on the market has a great UI, then tweak it a little and use it in your game! That other MMORPG has a combat system that the players love? Model yours as closely as possible and run with it.
You may be asking yourself "But isn't that cheating?!?" The short answer is no. Car designers DO NOT sit around wondering what shape to make the wheels on a new car. With all the MMOs that have been, and are currently on the market you mean to tell me from all the multi millions of dollars spent and different in game systems used from crafting, to economy, to combat. They all SUCK?
I can't understand why a lot of the teams developing games feel the need to start from scratch on every single aspect of a game to put their company "Vision" on it. It would appear to me, that with the myriad systems being used out there all you would really need to focus on is great content and a halfway decent I.P. (Warcraft anyone?)
Am I a huge WoW fan? No, I am not. But I am a fan of what works, as most gamers I know are. The success of WoW has, I think been misinterpreted again and again as simplistic game play. That may very well be a part of it, but the almost completely ignored part is that almost everything in the game is a borrowed and reshaped element of some other game system that was proven to work well for years.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
Comments
Any genre needs to evolve. There is a growing number of gamers who are all played out on the style of gaming wow copied. There will always be a market for interesting innovations.
We'd all be living in caves if mankind used your philosophy.
MMORPG
This doesn't , mean that there isn't room for improvment or even a new interface that is more intuitive.
But nothign exists in a vacuum and everything can be built on.
For instance, computers evolved to using a keyboard. Then Apple discovered Xerox's mouse and purchased the rights to use it. Then other looked at the mouse and thought it could be made better... etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yeah, I can see it now... The caveman is watching the other guy build a house. "You know, there's really no reason to reinvent the Cave..."
Anyway, maybe WOW does show us a few things... but all the WOW clones fail... I think it's time to start moving away from the WOW sub-genre.
i think the biggest problem here is there's not really GREAT stuff out there to copy.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What I am saying is that what we seem to have now is a state of runaway evolution.
Lets use your humans in caves analogy, ok?. Instead of incremental improvements to that cave "Hey lets hang a bear skin up to block some of the cold air getting in!".
Its more of a every cave man grows up and looks around and says "I can't use a cave for shelter! My father did that!" "I know! I will live in the water under the sea!" It's never been tried!" "I'm a genius!" And so he drowns and dies. The next cave man says "Well water and caves are out...Hmmm I guess I will try up in a tree!" ect ect.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
I don't have an issue with games copying things such as UI...I mean afterall, WoW has a great UI and there's no real reason to use anything that really differs from it in any significant way. There are things like combat and crafting though that I believe need to continue to evolve in order to keep gamers interested in...You can't just keep rereleasing WoW with the same combat and quest system and expect gamers to keep playing.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
lol, funny example
monty pythonesque
I understand what you are trying to say but I just don't see those examples actually happening. If anything it is the opposite with a million billion mmorpgs all using the same combat system, same class systems, same crafting systems, same quests, same ui etc etc etc.
MMORPG
Its a damned if they do, damned if they dont scenario.
If they take and slightly update the current MMO structure, people will bash them for being copy cats and unoriginal. "ooooo, so they changed this element... big deal, its still a clone"
If they try to appease people by making something wholey original, people will bitch that they went too far and that it should have been more like GameXYZ. "The UI sucks, it should be more like that game. I liked raiding in the other game better. Where are my orcs and elves?"
The lesson Blizzard taught was that MMOs can be successful if they don't aim for just 1 type of player, and that they are easily accessible to every player. WoW was made with simple PC specs and easily accessible controls. A player could figure out the ins and outs of the game in a matter of about 2 hours, so they could play with everyone else without having to worry about learning the UI. WoW also tried to make the game appeal to the more familiar player, by giving them elements they had in games they loved. The learning curve of the game allowed you to just goof off while becoming a better player.
What game companies need to realize is Blizzard made a Step One style MMO. A game that got a ton of people hooked on the genre. What they need to do is build off of that and evolve gradually. Keep system reqs based 1-2 generations behind the current generation and dont shock players with a radically different game play system. If you plan on making a game for the MMO Old Schoolers who are looking for a blast from the past style game, thats fine. But if you want to grab at the majority of the WoW base you have to offer them something familiar yet new.
But the biggest thing developers need to learn is: Do Not Make Promises Unless You Know You Can Deliver On.
One thing Blizzard did right was give vague descriptions of thier game ideas and a lot of explanation on what was currently in and working. The mistake they did make was talking about Hero Classes, but thats fine. They lead people to think "Cool, Blizzard is making a Warcraft MMO, I might check it out." and that was it. Then when it was released people were amazed.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This doesn't , mean that there isn't room for improvment or even a new interface that is more intuitive.
But nothign exists in a vacuum and everything can be built on.
For instance, computers evolved to using a keyboard. Then Apple discovered Xerox's mouse and purchased the rights to use it. Then other looked at the mouse and thought it could be made better... etc.
However, neither Apple nor Microsoft were the first commerical systems with mice or GUI. Symbolics Inc, beat both of them and in the big lawsuit many years ago, the court went to the Symbolics Chatsworth facility to look at an old LM-2 to see previous work. Also, Xerox gets and derserves a lot of credit for what they did. They didn't do it alone.By the time Xerox Park was doing it's research, there were many publications and hundreds or thousands in the same areas they were exploring. They all built upon each other.
Take a look at a book like Newman and Sproulls Principal's of Interactive Computer Graphics. First edition was 1973 and the second edition 1978. My second edition copy has over five hundred references in the Bibliography for articles and publications going back into 1962 on the subject. It ticks me off when someone just pushes the Apple did this first babble when it is total not true.
Actually, given hundred of thousand of years, mankind WOULD move out of the caves even with incremental improvements. In fact, rapid progress is unknown until the 20th century. Human takes a LONG time to move out of caves but we did.
Actually the biggest lesson WoW has taught that has been totally ignored is. POLISH SELLS GAMES.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I wrote an article on what Blizzard did right and did wrong with WoW. Take a look HERE
I wonder if in the end, WoW didnt revolutionize the MMORPG gameplay, but revolutionized the industry and marketing.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
In general, I agree with the linked article, but I preface it on the fact that there were other factors in '04 that made WoW the favored candidate to win the "MMO wars." Two of these factors come to mind: fatter wallets and cheaper, more powerful computers. 2004 was the turning point year from the DotCom Bubble which was further deepened by the 9/11 attacks (which some projections suggested offset the recovery by 1 and 1/2 years), and it was also a turning point in technology too. We saw faster PCs with sufficiently capable embedded GFX chipsets that could handle a game like WoW even on middling settings (barring low end PCs of the day). And with both of these factors in mind in the context that SWG and EQ2 being the only other major released titles it's small wonder why WoW won: it didn't require the top end of PCs to run it as the other two candidates demanded (with EQ2 as the top of the overhead scale of that day).
With that in mind, WoW can be considered more of an economic phenomenon rather than one of simply good developers (which there were on WoW as it had the least number of complaints that I've seen for hardware related issues of all MMOs I've played or heard of). In essence, Lady Luck was on Blizzard's side, but it does require me to preface this too on the fact that Blizzard also got WoW out under budget probably (I can't confirm, only suppose) and had capital to spare for growing pains (which I swear some MMO developers completely forget). In the end, WoW is two parts luck with eight parts elbow grease (for a 10/10 ratio here), but never discount that two parts of pure luck as it really did swing them from being moderately successful (in today's terms) to insanely successful (then and today's terms).
-- Brede
MMORPG
Actually, given hundred of thousand of years, mankind WOULD move out of the caves even with incremental improvements. In fact, rapid progress is unknown until the 20th century. Human takes a LONG time to move out of caves but we did.
Where are all these games that are supposedly taking massive leaps? I don't think there are any. Most mmorpgs are still evolutionary developments of previous ones (devolutionary in some cases). Just like wow. So wow did not in fact teach anybody that what they should have all been doing is sticking with tried and tested, they already where and still are. The only thing wow did differently was make a game more polished and professional than the competition. The other devs haven't failed to learn any lesson, they just haven't had the same resources to make a game that polished, so far.
They are NOT supposed to. Cumulate enough small changes and you will have a big change. WOW is the best example of that.And change of setting is big enough for me (Stargate Worlds, Agents, Earthrise ...)
If WoW has such a wonderful UI then why are there pages and pages of UI mods that can be downloaded for the game?
Actually the only thing Blizzard really did was appease the masses straight from the get go. A game that appealed to the gamer wther you are a part-time player or a full-time player.
what's the point of copying WoW? to lose money?
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USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
And for those of you that don't like the word (you know who you are), PERIOD.
WoW has a ton of UI mods because the game is HUGE and they were wise enough to allow modding to the UI in order to build a strong mod community. Not sure if you are aware of this...but mod communities are pretty important to the success of ANY PC game right now.
Truth be told, WoW's initial UI was very much superior to any I had played on before. Also, they integrated popular mod features into the base UI over time as well. They CONSTANTLY improve their UI. I don't want to play a WoW clone...for SURE, but you can bet I'd certainly expect any new game to at least have glanced over the awesome UI features WoW had and use some of the best ones when applicable.
I can sum up Blizzards success in three major parts, and two minor parts.
1) System Requirements. Screw being the biggest resource hog...Blizzard teaches us that if you want a mass market, you make darn certain that you build the game to run on "less-than-uber" PC's and optimize that code until your fingers bleed.
2) Good public history. This one is easy. They have a history of making great games. They have a history of paying close attention to what players like. They have a history of doing the very best they can to give back to their fans. Having a name goes a long way...because it attaches a professional expectation to it that MUST be upheld.
3) More is better. While some players may prefer group content...those players will still want stuff to do when no group is to be found. PvP'ers will want something to do when they don't feel like making war on a given day. Raiders will want some PvP so they can show off their earnings. If you want millions of player...you need millions of options to suit them all.
for the two minor
1) Gameplay which explains itself as you play. If you need to download a 500 page manual to figure stuff out (EVE, I'm looking at YOU) you probably won't be seeing 10 million players. Good utilization of mouseover info goes a long way. Having very clear text does too.
2) Launch a polished game. Having some bugs is okay...hell there will always be weird little things that get missed. For a long time...there was a brazier in some castle that was targetable and bore the name "Object 0091221". We can forgive that stuff. We can forgive little bugs that don't really hinder gameplay too much...especially if you are quick to fix it. Point is, a bad launch kills hype. You lose over half of your potential "in hold" buyers once the bad launch reviews come in. They won't even give you a second chance. Make your launch smooth and tasty if you hold any hope of a good game.
Beyond those points, nothing else matters. Most of those points are things ALL MMO's should be doing at by now. I don't think that we would be calling them clones for holding up to them either. Its all pretty basic stuff. Don't be a douche, and don't even THINK about trying to bleed the players to pay for finishing the game. Do your best to make sure you have an awesome relationship with your fans.
I'm with the OP. These new teams never seem to understand why WoW is huge. They miss EVERY last point.
Summary of the OP:
Just copy things from other MMOs that went well. There is no need to innovate or advance the genre.
Actually, given hundred of thousand of years, mankind WOULD move out of the caves even with incremental improvements. In fact, rapid progress is unknown until the 20th century. Human takes a LONG time to move out of caves but we did.
Where are all these games that are supposedly taking massive leaps? I don't think there are any. Most mmorpgs are still evolutionary developments of previous ones (devolutionary in some cases). Just like wow. So wow did not in fact teach anybody that what they should have all been doing is sticking with tried and tested, they already where and still are. The only thing wow did differently was make a game more polished and professional than the competition. The other devs haven't failed to learn any lesson, they just haven't had the same resources to make a game that polished, so far.
They are NOT supposed to. Cumulate enough small changes and you will have a big change. WOW is the best example of that.
And change of setting is big enough for me (Stargate Worlds, Agents, Earthrise ...)
I never said they are supposed to. This whole topic is based on the supposition that that is what has been happening and I have argued that it hasn't as these games with great leaps don't actually exist. Maybe you are replying to the wrong person?
MMORPG
WoW has a ton of UI mods because the game is HUGE and they were wise enough to allow modding to the UI in order to build a strong mod community. Not sure if you are aware of this...but mod communities are pretty important to the success of ANY PC game right now.
Truth be told, WoW's initial UI was very much superior to any I had played on before. Also, they integrated popular mod features into the base UI over time as well. They CONSTANTLY improve their UI. I don't want to play a WoW clone...for SURE, but you can bet I'd certainly expect any new game to at least have glanced over the awesome UI features WoW had and use some of the best ones when applicable.
I can sum up Blizzards success in three major parts, and two minor parts.
1) System Requirements. Screw being the biggest resource hog...Blizzard teaches us that if you want a mass market, you make darn certain that you build the game to run on "less-than-uber" PC's and optimize that code until your fingers bleed.
2) Good public history. This one is easy. They have a history of making great games. They have a history of paying close attention to what players like. They have a history of doing the very best they can to give back to their fans. Having a name goes a long way...because it attaches a professional expectation to it that MUST be upheld.
3) More is better. While some players may prefer group content...those players will still want stuff to do when no group is to be found. PvP'ers will want something to do when they don't feel like making war on a given day. Raiders will want some PvP so they can show off their earnings. If you want millions of player...you need millions of options to suit them all.
for the two minor
1) Gameplay which explains itself as you play. If you need to download a 500 page manual to figure stuff out (EVE, I'm looking at YOU) you probably won't be seeing 10 million players. Good utilization of mouseover info goes a long way. Having very clear text does too.
2) Launch a polished game. Having some bugs is okay...hell there will always be weird little things that get missed. For a long time...there was a brazier in some castle that was targetable and bore the name "Object 0091221". We can forgive that stuff. We can forgive little bugs that don't really hinder gameplay too much...especially if you are quick to fix it. Point is, a bad launch kills hype. You lose over half of your potential "in hold" buyers once the bad launch reviews come in. They won't even give you a second chance. Make your launch smooth and tasty if you hold any hope of a good game.
Beyond those points, nothing else matters. Most of those points are things ALL MMO's should be doing at by now. I don't think that we would be calling them clones for holding up to them either. Its all pretty basic stuff. Don't be a douche, and don't even THINK about trying to bleed the players to pay for finishing the game. Do your best to make sure you have an awesome relationship with your fans.
I'm with the OP. These new teams never seem to understand why WoW is huge. They miss EVERY last point.
ok the original post was about WoW having a great UI and how other game devs should model their UI as close to WoW. when I posted the above it was to say that the ORIGINAL UI was not that great, because if it was people wouldn't be making and downloading these MODS to change the ORIGINAL UI.
Some out-of-the-box UIs are definitely better than others, and WoW's is one of the best.
But the REAL lesson WoW taught us about UIs is that no two people will ever agree on what constitutes a good UI. Therefore your best best is to make the UI customizable. Which Blizzard did. Which is one of many reasons it's the number one game.