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Low populations, limited marketing...why? I will explain.
Tombs
Member Posts: 185
I am a marketing/home-mortgage consultant for Wells Fargo. As a result, I may have some insights into the "why" of what exactly is going on with AC2.
note: this is entirely hypothetical based on my personal business experience.
-In December, Turbine retook control of AC and received a venture capital loan to improve it for $18 million.
-They are maintaining the servers, and, not only that, releasing patches and new content constantly. On July 30 we will have a revamp of the craft system
-They gave a free trial for 15 days and yet still have not really marketed the game
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OK, so if the game has a small audience why the 18 million dollars, why the non-advertising, why the constant upgrades and maintenance on the servers? They can't be making money...
Get ready.
Here it comes...
WELCOME TO BETA AC2 PLAYERS!
That is right. Instead of killing the game because it is not profitable, they are developing new ideas, revamps, new systems, server improvements, etc for their NEW GAME. It most likely will not be called Asheron's Call but something else to attract a new following (but with references to the current game to try and keep the 3k or so loyal AC2 players).
The free trial is a way to add more beta testers and hopefully get them interested enough to pay for it. WoW is making ZERO DOLLARS from BETA while Turbine has 3k people betaing new ideas and revamps for them and PAYING FOR IT.
Which is actually smarter marketing? Turbine, getting paid by people to test their game and revamps or Blizzard, who has people testing for free?
So, Turbine is still backed monetarily by Microsoft but has full creative and programming control. The removal of Microsoft was necessary because there are many who dislike Microsoft and their monopoly on the world software/internet market and the negative image of a struggling game. Make no mistake, Microsoft is smart and always has been. The 3k customers aren't paying enough to keep the new content coming and the servers up and running, big brother Microsoft is behind the scenes manipulating this.
Next question: Why haven't we heard anything about it?
Like i said. Microsoft is smart. In a "three-for-all" what is the smartest thing to do? Well, you will win if you can sit back and let your two adversaries beat the hell out of each other and then step in and finish off the wounded parties. WoW and EQ2 will be released close to the same time and will duke it out for supremacy. When Turbine is completely ready, after the initial newness of release of WoW and EQ2 is done (many level up fast and get bored and will be looking for the next newest thing), they will begin marketing and release a game based on the AC2 we are currently testing for them ;p .
There ya go 
.
Comments
HAHA! Yes, many people have referred to Asheron's Call 2 as the beta test for Middle Earth Online (Lord of the Rings). It is exactly that and you are right to imply that by continuing to update and expand AC2 they are only helping themselves with their future project(s) [Turbine is also developing D&D Online].
In regards to Microsoft, both Turbine AND Microsoft wanted out of the relationship. As some may know, Microsoft is abandoning PC MMORPGs completely (perhaps for the Xbox?). Shortly after selling off the Asheron's Call franchise, Microsoft pulled the plug on Mythica. Fortunately for Turbine, their mutual interests lined up and I understand Turbine walked off with Asheron's Call for a real good deal. The $18M loan, which seems like alot of cash, is really not that much considering they will be using the capital to enhance their current graphics engine to accomidate their 4G MMOGs, which is basically what you were saying.
People can say anything they want about Turbine, but they have their shiz together. They are developing two of the biggest titles in the fantasy genre, they have survived a brutal release with AC2 and they are still pulling in investment dollars and updating all of their respective game content. Turbine is a kick ass business and software house; most would fold 10 times over from the pressure they endure.
That is an interesting theory and makes some sense. However, I believe the programmers for both games are different.
I'd like to add that Turbine is not neglecting the paid subscribers to AC2 and it is still a very good game and IMO worth the subscription price. I am looking forward to MEO and D&D Online and hope they do incorporate some of the ideas from AC2 and give their loyal subscribers a discount.
Currently Playing:
AC2, WW2Online, SWG
Retired:
Everquest, DAoC
_________________________________
Currently Playing: Eve-Online
On the Backburner: EQ2
Retired: EQ, DAoC, WW2Online
RIP: AC2
Tried: Ryzom, Roma Victor, RoM, KH2, Forsaken World, AO, AoC, APB
Quit: SWG PRE-CU(Radiant/Starsider), WoW
Achiever 47% / Explorer 40% / Killer 87% / Socializer 27%
Tombs,
Intresting ideas. But AC2 has been out for 1 1/2+ years. Plenty of time to beta or "beta" it. And that is not counting AC2's roughly 1-3 months of actual beta testing.
WoW and EQ2 are being targeted towards different core markets. WoW is being first targeted towards the 8 million + Blizzard fans. If WoW can get just a fraction of them to go for the idea of paying to play a MMORPG then WoW will have succeeded. EQ2 is being targeted first towards former EQ players who have left EQ, which number roughly 1 million gamers..... and second towards current EQ players.
Thus WoW and EQ2 will both succeed. Since both games are targeting different core markets. What was AC2 originally targeting as their core market? AC players? The majority of AC players do not support, nor like, AC2. The number of players have not taken a noticeable nosedive over the past 1 year.
Tombs, what do you think about what many are saying that MEO and DDO will end up compeating vs each other?
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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More games:
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I may not be Tombs, but I think I can answer this one. MEO is targeting Tolkien fans more than current AC1 and AC2 players.
D&D online is targeting all the Dungeons & Dragons purists. I'm sure that by using the D&D name, they have to follow the D&D rules.
Both games are very ambitious and intriguing. It will be interesting to see what Turbine has learned with their first 2 games and how ready the games will be when released, especially with Microsoft out of the loop.
I think you missed my point X. I am not saying AC2 is beta for itself, but a sounding board/testing ground for the games they release in the future. Liz hit the nail right on the head. I think they realize it will never become their "cash cow" but it is such a great resource for "testing" that many of the new things you see in AC2 will end up in MEO or DDO.
Tolkien has a huge following and MEO will be a game that a lot fo people will "try" even while playing EQ2 or WOW. Just like SWG survived off the huge base of star wars fans, MEO can make it on the great number of Tolkien fans.
Use me as an example. I am a 4 and a half year EQ player that won't play EQ2. I am waiting patiently for WOW. However, I started the trial for AC2, like it, will pay for it after the trial is up, and continue it until I get a chance to try WOW. I am guessing I will cancel it and be full time WOW. However, because I got a chance to play it and like the game and company, they will definitely get my business on MEO. Without this free trial, I most likely would not have bought MEO, even though I am the biggest Tolkien fan and scholar ever.
Why do I like the company? I have made two petitions and both times got a GM in an hour or so. With Everquest it took from three days to a week. For a game that only has 2000 people on at a time that is damn impressive and worthy of some support.
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As far as DDO and MEO I think it is a mistake to have two games. DDO is there for name recognition. Most mmorpgers roots lie with D&D and they have a soft spot for it. My guess is that they are hoping if you don't like one you will like the other and they will do some cross-marketing. Cross marketing is where you are a paid subscriber to one and get a free shot at the other or pay a discounted rate to have both. I personally would prefer them to put all their effort into MEO and make it badass.
/e Shakes Head....
LOL what kind of theory is that?!
You're making it sound like there is some kind of conspiracy hiding behind a mask that is Ac2.... I seriously hope you are not serious about your post. And if you are, please tell me which company you market for so i can make sure not to buy their products...lolAsherons Call 2 - Level 60 - Tonk CB
Proud Member of Half Dozen
Darktide
A couple of points:
1) I stated who I work for in the opening line of my original post.
2) It isn't a conspiracy theory. I highly doubt Turbine has the funds, even with the $18 million capital received, to a) keep the servers running with constant expansions and "on the dot" in-game customer support with a paying population of less than 3000 for AC2, b) pay to develop TWO huge mmorpgs coming out in less than a year - Middle Earth Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online, c) suck up the costs that will be associated with a mega-release in terms of marketing, and d) AFFORD to buy back the rights to AC2 from Microsoft. Therefore, I believe Microsoft is still part of the picture.
I tried to hint at it in a way that everyone could understand but I will spell out more specifically, besides the above reasons, why I think Microsoft would prefer to be a silent partner/investor with someone else's name out front:
1) Microsoft has little experience in this market and does not like to lose or be second place and does not want to deal with the possibility of another failure.
2) There are people that oppose Microsoft due to their above mentioned monopoly on the world operating system/internet markets.
3) They DID relinquish creative control and thus want another company to be publically responsible.
......
What is going on now with EQ2 and WOW? On these boards even? Well, for some reason you have half knocking one and half knocking the other saying "they suck" or "this isn't good" or whatever. Thus, the two games have the fans trying to beat each other up... I am sorry if you don't see this.
Releases are often timed considering things like Christmans, the release of a blockbuster movie relative to the game, or the "cooling off" period of a competitor and doesn't qualify as some major "conspiracy".
Am i wrong? Sure, I could be. I said it was only a personal hypothesis.
edit: took out the flame
hehe
Tombs, I've thought the same thing for a while now. The cool thing about it, if it is real, is that AC2 only benefits from it. Turbine has even mentioned that they may look into updating AC2 with the future techonologies they are using on the other games.
From Turbines website:
"Last December, Turbine teamed up with TBL, our official Korean AC2 site, to hold an item design contest. Players submitted item design ideas as image or text submissions. Ten finalists were chosen, and from there Turbine selected the winning submission. Congratulations to Gisung Kim, whose butterfly staff suggestion was selected as the winning entry!
The Lycaena staff will be available to players in our March event. Players on the Korean server of Baekdu may get an early peek at the winning design, though, because the winner will be given a unique display copy of the staff during our February event."
So they do have Korean servers.
GW Alpha Member
Legion of Exile
Strange that M$ announced they were moving out of the mmorpg yet kept a competitive bid and won the rights for vanguard.
Changed their minds?
The mighty VANUGARD has been in production roughly longer/as long as AC2 has been around. MicroSoft got rid of AC2 because from MicroSofts Point of View AC2 is an utter failure. (It is... BUT it is MicroCrap's....errrr... MicroSoft's complete and full fault for everything bad that happened to AC2. And for AC2 being in its current situation.).
If you read the wording of the shutting down of Mythica, MS never said they were pulling out of the entire industry. They just felt Mythica would fail. (Mythica is a vaporware MMORPG. And yes MS got taken to court by Mythic for the simular name.)
So MS by the fact it partnered with Vanguard shows MS is not pulling out of the MMORPG industry. It takes 1-5 years to make a MMORPG. Then 5 more years supporting it as it runs its lifecycle. That's 6 to 10 years MS will definatly be in the MMORPG industry because of the mighty, mighty, Vanguard.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Vanguard isn't a company. Its a game.
Microsoft partnered with Sigil Games.
Maxxxi - Frostfell - Asherons Call 2
Actually MicroSoft partnered with Brad McQuaid.
And the context of the post you are replying to uses Vanguard/Sigil as synonoumous(sp). Since Vanguard is Sigil's only game. Every point still holds true.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
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http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
I wish everyone would stop hating on Microsoft!
Even if Microsoft is conspiring to manipulate the mmorpg industry of AC and the like just so it can take #1 for another game. Microsoft is an Empire and I hope they stay that way! Yes, they may well be a monopoly for Software and the like, but hell, whats so bad about that? Microsoft's Software is the best thing that ever happened. Id rather be spending $$$'s on Microsofts Software the spending $$$'s on searching, trying, testing, and hating hundreds of other little companies software if that is, there was never a Microsoft. Praise to Microsoft!
Also, I do no work for Microsoft lol
"Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the 'special olympics'. Whoever wins, your still retarded"
"I fear no enemy! For the Khala is my strength! I fear not death. For our strength is eternal!" - Fenix
Anything is possible, but your 3k subscribers number is a little low. There is a formula to calculate your paying subscritpion base in an mmo.
Roughly 20% of your subscribers are logged in during peak hours on any given day... So, 3kish average players x 5 = 15k paying subscribers. Hence, $195,000.00 monthly income. This is more then enough to support the staff and the updates.
I know that you dont like the truth... now ask me if I care
<Insert insult about ur fat mom here>
Every MMORPG is different and unique to itself. SWG during its first 4 months of release had 50% of its total subscribers online at the same time. It would have had far more, but that was the maximum ALL their servers could hold.
AO had between 50% to 100% of its total subscribers online during its first 1 year out. AO originally had only two servers!
EvE Online is the final bone breaking blow to that old, outdated, and debunked formula you keep trying to adhere to. EvE at peak time has between 12,000 to 15,000 players online at the same time. That is 30% to 50% of its total subscribers. Guess what? When EvE first came out it easily, definatly, had between 50% to 100% of its total subscribers online at the same time. Guess how many servers EvE has? Come on guess
There are 3 major time zones aka "power time zones" in the world. America, Europe, and Asia. (Yeah I know, China takes up 4+ time zones but only has 1 time zone LOL!) In science it is called an educated guess. AC2 at peak time has roughly 3,000 total players online at the same time. The exact numbers have been posted by current players who still play AC2. Thus a liberal calculation is that AC2 has 9,000 subscribers.
Ahhh.... but Peak time is not every day, (in AC2 at least. In SWG it actually was non-stop 24hours for months!) and even when peak time happens, it is only for a few hours. AC2 has even less players in Europe. And even far, far, far, less players in Asia. Thus a conservative calculation is that AC2 has 6,000 subscribers.
Last, let's say your estimate of 15,000 total subscribers is true. That is still a horribly, dismally, LOW amount of players in a major 20 million to 25 million dollar, 4th generation, MMORPG. That is NOT enough players to keep AC2 from facing shutdown at any moment. EnB had 25,000+ subscribers. MCO had 25,000 + subscribers. Both cost less than AC2 to make and develope. Both were making far more money than AC2. Both got their a--es shut down.
A MMORPG has an intended shelf life of 5 years. Most make back the millions invested to develople them in 1 year, or 2 years. Read this -> The investors want their money back as SOON as possible. A MMORPG needs 100,000 subscribers to be considered a hit. It will make back all its investment in 1 to 2 years. A MMORPG needs 50,000 subscribers to have any chance in heaven or hell of ever recouping all investment money. That would take 2 to 4 years! AC2 will take 4 to 8 years to make back all its investment money. This is about making back the investment money! After that is done, THEN a MMORPG will be making a true profit.
SWG is on the verge of making a true profit. It is now 1 year and 1 month old. With over 300,000+ subscribers. It is about to make back the 25 million it took to develope it. EQ cost 5 million to make. It ended up making back its investment in 1 year. It then made enough of a true profit to allow its parent company to make an additional 3 more MMORPGs as well as tons of EQ expansions.
AC2 has not made back its investment money. MicroSoft decided to asorb the loss. AC2 now must turn a true profit for Turbine to keep it afloat. Right now AC1 is responsible for keeping AC2 alive. As long as AC is able to keep turning in a true profit, Turbine will be able to keep the dead horse AC2 on life support as long as they want. Hey, EQ made enough to make 3 more MMORPGs. It is very likely AC is making enough to keep 1 MMORPG on life support, even if AC2 sinks down to 100 total players playing.
Did you know some AC2 servers have LESS than 50 total players playing at peak time!?!
If you enjoy playing a MMORPG that at anytime can be shut down, then that is nice. It is your choice. Your informed choice. Just do not forget to mention everything about AC2 to new players so they also can make an informed choice.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
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======= SIGNATURE =========
MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
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