Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
I guess "No crying in the red circle" wasn't the best marketing strategy
smg77
Member Posts: 672
http://potbs.armeagle.nl shows real-time server populations. It's currently primetime in the US and *all* servers are listed at light.
Comments
A .nl site? Don't you see it's a Dutch conspiracy to see the game fail because the Netherlands is not a playable nation?
More seriously, FLS should have seen it coming. It all goes back to that quote by Isildur back in July 2007: "The people who want to gank are waiting for the Next Big Failure to come along, to let them grief noobs for a few months before it shrivels up and dies. This is because every sane developer has learned this lesson: griefing and ganking doesn’t just lose you the $15/mo from the person who was griefed. It has a multiplicative effect, creating an environment in your game, and a reputation outside your game, and people tend to steer clear. ‘Play to Crush’ as a selling point and marketing slogan probably lost SB twice the players it ended up bringing them."
I asked a few weeks ago: "Is "no crying in the red circle" in danger of becoming the 2008 version of "Play to Crush", even with no advertising campaign built around it?"
Link: http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21615
Still no response from the devs over that, and yet now there are news that some of the most gank-friendly posts in that thread have vanished (surprise!). But "no crying in the red circle" is still going around, quoted by both devs and players alike. Surely they must have seen that was a mistake by now?
If you check that site out of primetime, you will even see some nations listed as "None"
It only takes one player to gain a "Light" rating so there are probably even more nations virtually devoid of players outside primetime.
I think this is going to be a case of FLS not wanting to admit they were wrong. You're right, though, some of the most vocal griefers on their forums haven't posted in weeks.
Hillarious but I cannot say I am surprised, thanks for the link smg77. I now half expect a deadender to come and make a lecture how only wimps don't like POTBS and how the game is poised to climb up like EVE did. Funny enough that PvE only late commer like LOTRO got roughly the same number of subscribers EVE built with painful slowness over the years.
It is a no brainer really, larget number of players are PvE first, second and smaller group are PvE/PvP players and third and the smallest group are hardcore PvPers. That being all PvErs and majority of PvPers don't like ganking.
The game was overhyped and badly designed. Ten years ago that might make it fly but not today, the majority of players voted with their feet.
Reposting link to Vetarnias' thread discussing gank galore in POTBS. It was hard to access in the original post above.
http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21615
The game PvE part was fun. So why that failed?, maybe the people that want this type of gameplay is playing EVE.
Funny thing is that it is so easy to believe things when they show what you want them to.
The script on the linked site is not working correct.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Funny thing is that it is so easy to believe things when they show what you want them to.
The script on the linked site is not working correct.
No, thank you, but I am certain you will find other ways to prove your superiority with three line posts.
And no, I am not going to enter a discussion with you. Enjoy your education on critical thinking:)
The thing is EVE is a misunderstood game and it is wrong to compare EVE and POTBS.
In an active potbs server it should have so many pvp zones that it becomes impossible for 'carebears' such as traders and producers or mission runners playing in peace. There would be no avoiding it unless they all relocate themselves.
In eve whil it is possible for me to pirate and kill in high sec, I will be hit by Concord very quickly. Likewise the clever players in high sec, mining or whatever are helped by the inability of pirates to enter those areas...and if they can all you need to do is be careful and fit your ship correctly and stay aligned to a station and you can mostly escape rapidly.
So basically EVE caters for hardcore pvp'ers with its harsh pvp system, while providing adequate protection for the carebears and providing a massive aspect of the game (market trading, detailed production etc) for them to play without ever fighting.
Funny thing is that it is so easy to believe things when they show what you want them to.
The script on the linked site is not working correct.
No, thank you, but I am certain you will find other ways to prove your superiority with three line posts.
And no, I am not going to enter a discussion with you. Enjoy your education on critical thinking:)
The point was that the site is not working correctly how could you miss that?
(The other one was rethorics as you tried to deny people to argue what is said in this thread, that's not more "ok" to do. Or are you calling people beforehand with "deadender" meaning something positive.)
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Well, they decided to make a gank friendly game......and advertise it as such.
Gankers don't care about the long term health of a game, they only care about getting their short term jollies by ruining the enjoyment of others. They buy the game, may spend $15 for an additional month, and this is about the sum of their cash outlay over the time it takes to totally ruin millions of dollars/hours of developement.
My favorite in POTBS now is to see groups of 4 from 3 different nations sail around within the same red circle and not attack each other. Each group is waiting for that lone noob to go astray so they can jump him. Rather than take on each other in a 4v4, they complain about how there is no meaningful PvP in the game anymore. I am not making this up folks, this is what is happening as the player numbers dwindle down. It is this absolutely brain dead player logic that it leaves me in astonishment.
And yes, they are all talking about how they can't wait until AoC and WAR come out.
Why developers cater to this crowd actually amazes me. It's like spending millions of developement dollars to grab the psychotic killer market segment.
Here's some advice for other developers: Don't worry if the griefers and PKers complain on your forums--they will be gone one way or another in a month. Focus on making a fun game for well-adjusted people and go from there.
I suspect you clicked on the link just to find a copy of the login screen showing server numbers.
However, if you then click on any of the server names., you will get a very comprehensive analysis of how the nations are doing against each other.
I think the poster thought you were complaining about him, rather than the (apparently) non working link.
On a related note, the FLS devs are apparently going ahead with their plans on holding a chat session tomorrow (April 9, 5 PM Pacific Time), as the link appears on the PotBS LaunchPad:
http://www.warcry.com/news/view/82564
I'm not sure on attending it, but I'm sure wondering if someone will bring up all those questions about populations, the general impression players have of the game, and that nice quote by Isildur.
My guess is the questions will be heavily filtered to just allow the softball concerns to fly through. Still, it is going to be interesting what happens...
When a guy who owns a First Rate worth 11 million and a Third Rate worth 3.5 million says "this game is dying faster then you are able to destroy my holdings", you know you're in trouble.
It does impress me how the developers (of this or any game like it) are told, up front, by a large portion of their player-base what they intend to do -- play with the goal of making others stop playing -- and yet act surprised when that is what happens.
You even have history to predict the results. Eatings of the childrens is the end result of many a PvP server, and the only exceptions have been one-server solutions (EVE and EQ2) or too many childrens to eat them all (WoW)
Maybe there's a new slogan companies should heed: "There's no crying about your lack of players"
Bottom line: People PAY to win and be the King.
Avatars are people too
I agree with others, its not fair to compare EVE to PoTBS. CCP has managed to pull off a very tricky balancing act, catering to both the PVE, PVE/PVP and hardcore PVP players more or less equally.
But its a thin line, and I'm sure many people would disagree with me and say they don't care for EVE and its PVP nature.
But you can PVE successfully in EVE, you just have to be smart and careful, something many folks dont do. I thrive in both 0.0 and Empire space, and despite many ship losses and sort of sucking at PVP, managed to have fun in my own way. But not everyone is willing or interested in doing this.
POTBS was a good idea, just not sure the implementation was all that great. It still might recover though, just have to wait and see. (though if there really are server populations of none, thats a really bad sign)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The dev chat transcript:
www.warcry.com/articles/view/devchat/3556-Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea-Dev-Chat-Log
What's missing from there: My own submitted question: Given certain remarks made by lead designer Isildur last July regarding how "people who want to gank are waiting for the Next Big Failure to come along" as well as his insistence that "Play to Crush" was a disastrous slogan choice for Shadowbane, what are we to make of the current state of the game and the widespread use by devs and players alike of "no crying in the red circle" as mantra?
I was not expecting an answer, and the handling of the dev chat confirmed it will not be forthcoming.
The chat includes a few valid concerns, but on the whole the questions are, as I commented on the PotBS forums, asking when the backseat will be upholstered when the engine is dead and beginning to catch fire.
Rearranging deck chairs, y'know.
I found the chat transcript amusing but it was nothing unexpected. It was well filtered and it has the usual FLS trademark of talking about topics they want to hear. For me that is a pretense of communication between two subjects without any real communication taking place.
The latest brilliancy of the designers shine in the following post made by Isildur, the dev who's published opinions a year ago are fundamentally different from what the game turned out to be.
http://www.burningsea.com/page/news/article&article_id=10746
Without going into details my opinion is they can twek PvP and its rewards all they want and it will do no good. PvP aspect is dependant on the rest of the game and the game mechanism is unblanced and broken. You cannot make it work by fixing just one segment of it, that is just my opinion.
That being said FLS continues with the concept of take the money from econ players to give it to PvPers. I don't think it is a good idea to reward one segemnt of the player base at the expense of the other. Not to mention that econ players, what is left of them due to socieities making most of the crafting in house, are few in numbers and have more goods then money.
Secondly, with increased PvP reward in current gank/grief friendly system all that is done is encourage it. If the system was different, it would be a good idea but this way it just adds another layer to the steaming pile of manure. Gankers do it for the buzz of ruining someone's game and now, thanks to FLS, they can even get paid for it!!! I am getting paid to ruin your game! Sign me up!
Anyways, on a more serious note, I think POTBS set an interesting trend and I suspect gank squads will move to AoC first and WAR later on. Now, AoC will probably inherit the same problems due to zoned world (limited areas), emphasis on PvP and devs who stated in advance they will mostly take hands off approach to PvP. I think AoC will fly unlike POTBS (although I suspect it will not be the second MMO comming) due to the fact PvP and PvE servers will be separated and the game has better mechanics then POTBS.
PS
If you are AoC fan or naysayer please don't tear the last paragraph apart as it is my personal opinion on a gaming trend.
QFT ,I give my 110% aproval to this post.
Yes, I saw that, and it was a good thing I was not drinking coffee as I was reading; otherwise I would have had to clean up the monitor.
I am an econ type, and probably one of the last ones left on Blackbeard. Though I play on the French side, societies there are so organized that there is just no market in Grenville for anything. There are tons of products sold at very low prices. So I sell to the British, where demand remains constant and prices high, and even to the Spanish, which apparently has so few players that complete internal ship production from start to finish is impossible with their current numbers.
But back to the subject. Buried in Isildur's column is one jarring phrase: "Until we implement port governance, PvP is the current endgame in Pirates." Well, the dev chat already conceded that port governance was not for tomorrow (and considering the state of the game might actually never happen), so PvP is the endgame. Not a means to an end anymore (i.e. map win, political reasons, etc.), but *the* endgame.
So the devs walk all over the few economic players that are left, and already certain players are trying to justify the move. When I talked about this, one player replied: "if PVPers have more money then they will be wanting to buy more, and bigger ships from you. Why is this making your life worse?" Well, in many ways.
First, they are also taking out Marks of Victory for creating economic unrest in 1.3, leaving PvP as the only method for acquiring them (my economy-oriented society leader had this laconic response to the news: "no way").
Secondly, I don't disagree with the fact that it might create business for shipbuilders, but since most of the PvP is ganking, I'm afraid, as you mentioned, that those most likely to be affected are probably going to be poor as well, unlikely to afford replacing a ship and very likely to quit the game over it. The larger organized types will probably be buying from their own society anyway.
Thirdly, if the money goes back to me anyway in the form of ship orders (which I don't even produce, by the way, just parts of them), it's really not solving anything. I'm still going to be hoarding that money. I won't start PvPing tomorrow because I'm rich -- in fact I'm rich enough but too low-level (as all that moving goods around takes all my available time). I'll keep on accumulating money while giving out very little. What are you going to do then? Tax me?
Fourthly, who says we're not doing our bit? My society is currently engaged in a collective effort to produce higher-ranked ships of the line, and we're all contributing towards it. I have given goods, have donated money, all of which came from my trading to begin with. I'm not really sitting on money as we speak, though there might be solitary economic players who like it that way. If any are left, they'll soon realize they have nothing to spend it on except ships. In fact, if people are hoarding money, it just indicates that something else is deficient, probably the larger political game, which really doesn't matter anymore once a side can be seen steamrolling across a server every time (like the British on Blackbeard). I'll go even further and say that all Isildur has, in theory, accomplished there is make PvP for PvP's sake entirely possible. I say in theory, because the Grind was painful, but you still need it to level, and even for money. Changes don't make it less so, and in fact PvP circles are likely to remain empty with current player levels, so the Grind will continue to be a necessity.
But I would say that what got me is the sheer contempt for the economic types Isildur is displaying. He has a paternal interest in the economy, but he'd rather send us off PvPing than do our money our way. And it will remain to be seen exactly what those "Marks of Trade" offer. It's vague, but something red is going up in my mind that it's going to mean, like underdog rewards, more cheap goods on the market.
Seems to me like the PVPers are there to stay and the complainers are the ones leaving. Whats worse? PVPers staying and playing the game or people who don't like the game refusing to leave and demand the developers change the game for them? Should they rename the game to Pirates of the Rainbow Sea?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
To bad most of the PvPers left the second they saw the red circle system
To bad most of the PvPers left the second they saw the red circle system
Right...people who like fair PvP have already taken off for greener pastures. The people left are the gankers and griefers that FLS has decided to cater to.
To bad most of the PvPers left the second they saw the red circle system
Right...people who like fair PvP have already taken off for greener pastures. The people left are the gankers and griefers that FLS has decided to cater to.
But there is a bright side to this.. if they are kept busy in POTBS that means they wont bother people elsewhere. If you think about it maybe this is not a bad thing and was even worth paying a few bucks for a new coaster for my coffee cup in order to achieve. In any event maybe they will be too busy in POTBS to mess around in other releases. One can only hope that there is enough money in that small population to keep this game afloat and that they stay put.