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Clerics class deal breaker
BigBadWolfe
Member Posts: 143
All I want to know is, is the Cleric class going to be healbots or turn into healbots at endgame. This is more of a community issue than a design issue because even White Mages of FFXI had some damage dealing abilities, but were castrated everytime they casted non-heal magic.
WoW wasn't much better as classes were often forced to respec as healer classes if they wanted to get into a powerful guild. This made things difficult with the exceptions of say Resto Druids, that wanted to PvP as well, and would have to respec or raise an entirely new character to cap to do so.
Basically what I'm saying is that healbotting as a concept needs to die in MMOs, it's not fun for the person doing it, and it's not fun for everyone trying to find (force) someone else to do it.
If you need a example of a better mechanic Warhammer has the Warrior Priest who is the primary healer, but they have a mechanic that they must deal dps to power their heals and buffs. So staying in the back is not an option.
Also in a smaller unknown game Phantasy Star Universe, the healing items were terribly cheap and even dropped from mobs and chests around the area, so players could sustain their own health during dungeon/boss fights, allowing the healers to DPS more, and mainly buff. They healed only in emergencies, and it was AoE only so people that wanted heals/buffs had to stay close to them.
Don't tell me when you see a name like "Cleric" class you don't think of healbotting. It's a deal breaker for me if I had to deal with healbotting at endgame. The only way to get rid of it is to specifically design Clerics to be most effective in the front lines where the action is, and ineffective in the backlines where the broken dreams are </3.
Comments
WAR sounds like the game for you...this is pretty mush the same with healers...or i might be wrong
You're wrong Housam.
Clerics in Aion, apart from the healing skills (remember people might not like healing the whole time, but if you want to do damage, choose a damage dealer.) will have offensive spells, as far as I know, a pair of ranged attacks, a stun and a mirror summon which casts rays against enemies.
" Cleric: Their role will be mostly about healing and protection, but they also have some melee skills and projections. They are likely to mainly wear a shield + a 1-handed mace."
-Thanks to
Actually, the most famous and most sucessulf MMORPG are based on the theory of very disctint classes and roles.
There are Healers/Dpsers/Tanks and utility classes.
I like that way. better than playing like Archlord (which i just tried and lasted 1 week), that basicly every class is the same thing, some with better aoe, some with better buffs, but in the end, its pretty much the same thing.
Now, they are giving some nice dps features to Clerics ,which is good imo, however i wouldn't agree in making healing classes 2 strong. Why? well it's simple, for example WoW has a major flaw right now, too many off specs, if u want to find a warrior for tanking, u cant, they are all dps'ers. it just sucks alot.
So i reckon Aion Should just have its healers and tanks, however players shouldn't be limited in solo play for making that choice. they could take more time killing mobs, but on the other way, teh resistance would be muc hbetter
In the end its like this, if u dont want to heal in end game or wtv, dont choose cleric simple, now dont expect to have awesome healing abilites and awesome dps abilites, that naturally screws up game in the long process.
WAR sounds like the game for you...this is pretty mush the same with healers...or i might be wrong
Have to agree with this user, by the way u want the class to work, i reckon WAR is the game for you.
ok sorry...i seed i might be wrong hehe
Cleric's in Aion have the ability to dish out damage quite well from what I have seen. Not to mention if I am not mistaken they do in fact get to wear chain-mail in the end-game. Clerics are not nearly as squishy in Aion as with most other mmorpgs out there.
I plan on being a glad and I think I will probably be a bit cautious when engaging one in PvP. If I'm going to engage, I'm going to make damn well sure I have my head on straight before I do.
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I ilke playing healer classes.. I have a level 50 priest in WoW... you can always find a group!
You are right about wow/aion but your info outdated about WAR. Cuz they implemented mastery system. And u have to choose your path( 3 path like WoW) for each class.
For example : Healers has Pure healer path
like wow ? yes 
i mean WAR not for you anymore
like wow/aion
gg
There is nothing wrong with a pure healing class in a game that has good grouping and healing is a requirement. You have however to realise that the majority of players will not play a pure healer. Only a minority enjoys this aspect with a few people being forced in the position for the better good of a guild.
If a game does implement pure healers, they will need to back them up with a real necessity to be there. Else noone will play anything more than a healer hybrid. And exactly because of the rarity, people may have to wait some long hours for a trinity group (tank, healer, dps).
Bottom line,if pure healers are implemented, they will become a necessity. And if they become a necessity, expect yourself to warship them, due to their rarity.
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I'm sorry for asking, but if you don't like healing...then why play a healing class?
I dont see the point with all these hybrid classes that people want. Healers should be healers. Like some people already pointed out, if u want to be a damage dealer u should play one.
This game will be group based and hopefully every char will have its distinct role in that group.
L2 Addict since - 10 april 2004 07:40:22
Welcome to the Lineage II Open Beta. -
That's the dilemma; Nobody wants to sit around all day mashing the heal button, unless you're one of the rare few who doesn't mind such things. Since most of the time parties can't function properly without a healer, especially in PvP, this indeed causes problems when no-one wants to be a healer. Majority wants piece of the action in front lines. In other words, give a person a reason for healer class to do something other than heal, that way more people will play a healer class, that's why the OP mentioned hybrid classes since they're allowed to take part in combat instead of mashing the heal button.
Since Clerics will have decent combat skills/spells and can wear decent armor, I'm sure they'll have a piece of the action when healing isn't needed.
"When you're born you're naked, when you die you're naked again, and in-between all we do is work, eat, and play MMOs." ~Forum Warrior #141
Actually I definatly see where the Original poster is coming from. NO GAME should have any healer class who primarily sits back and lobs "regular" energy based heals as their primary mode of healing that is superior to other healing classes.
Vanguard hasnt done a lot of things right, but it has some damn good designed healers for the most part.
Examples:
Bloodmage, a life taping healer, heals relative to the amount of damage they deal, so dps IS healing for them.
Disciple, while damage specifically isnt related to healing, combat attacks are. Performing three combat attacks in order provides an energy-free instant heal, and they have several other non-energy related healing methods.
Alternative, class specific methods of healing should be the primary method of healing, definatly the most efficient, and should be supplemented by the large energy based heals. This gives each healer a different feel, as well as unique situations when they are "the best," while on normal encounters they are all relatively equal in comparison. Debuffs or buffs are also crucial roles for Healers, and dividing up the roles among multiple classes is always advisable as it makes each class a desired addition on higher end content.
Also, what most people dont understand is that you can have a highly offensive healer that could put out 75% of a real DPS class's damage WHILE healing. That is a great asset for several situations, no question. The goal should be to have diverse, balanced, FUN healers that can solo. This solves the issue of having a low amount of dedicated healers on line. The same should be said for the tank classes as well, make them unique, diverse, relatively balanced, able to solo, and FUN. This will get more people interested.
When you divide up a game into 4 rigid archetypes of Tank / Heal / Dps / Support, and expect people to only perform one role, then tanking and healing will almost always be the vast majority. But if you provide mixtures of each, then it gives players "real" choice in what they play
. Look at it from a "primary-secondary" system in Vanguard:
Tanks: Paladin: Tank / Healing
Dreadknight: Tank / Support
Warrior: Tank / DPS
Healers:
Bloodmage: Healer / spell DPS Disciple:
Healer / melee Dps
Cleric: Healer / Tank
Shaman: Healer / Support (has access to permanent pet, and there are three shaman paths,one for spell dps, one melee dps, and one tanking)
If a warrior or disciple doesnt need to tank or heal much based on the situation or group, they can focus heavily on their dps roles and provide a strong, useful amount of damage that IS noticeable. If in a situation where no tank is available, a Cleric would be then "next best thing" for a tank. Or, if extra foes enter the fight, a cleric is good for off tanking.
The reason this works so well is that a player isnt stuck with "only being a heal bot," as they can switch out of a heavily tank/healing focused role and into their secondary role, which they still do well. They generally cannot perform "well" at their secondary role while focusing heavily on their primary role, so it stays balanced,
Well, i have only played a healer class in Lineage 2. But they surely dont lack piece of action in that game thats for sure. Of course they wont kill anyone themselves, but a good healer is what makes a difference in pvp. And if the pve got some action in it i dont think thats very boring either. If the healer class will be fun in Aion or not depends (in my opinion) more on how intense the pvp action is, then if the healer can do damage or not.
And Lineage 2 for me was more about how your party, clan or ally did in pvp then how many i could kill myself. Hopefully Aion will be the same.
L2 Addict since - 10 april 2004 07:40:22
Welcome to the Lineage II Open Beta. -
I wouldn't mind playing a pure healing class, anything to get through the lvling process easily at the cost of someone else defending me... and making everyone 'my bitch'.
The way I see it, playing as any class, taking on whatever role in a group, you'll still only be mashing buttons of your keyboard/gamepad.
IMO...
When you have many peoples of the same class, they should give each other a "silly bonus". This bonus is something they usually are poor at doing. 2 healers, maybe they give each other a bonus to DPS. 2 DPS class? Maybe they give each other a regen or tanking bonus. And so on.
The idea is to make it nice and worthwhile to still group many peoples of the same class, even if it is better to have different classes. This bonuses shouldn't be too nice, but nice enough so peoples still have fun and find themselves usefull.
That's been said, I have no idea what Aion is planning to do if many peoples of the same class group together, do they get silly bonuses so they still are somewhat nice? Or will they split road?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If you dont like heal bots... dont play one.
Thing you need to realize, just cause your not dpsing doesnt make you less critical. In DAOC if I died, odds are my group followed me extremely quickly. However if our sorc or armsman died, it was no biggie. Healers are critical, especially in pvp.
When you have many peoples of the same class, they should give each other a "silly bonus". This bonus is something they usually are poor at doing. 2 healers, maybe they give each other a bonus to DPS. 2 DPS class? Maybe they give each other a regen or tanking bonus. And so on.
This is a good idea, especially if we're going to pay to play this game(right?).
Those said people that are going to use the same class will need to be spoiled even more to keep them interested into the game and not feel 'conforming' to just one sole role in a group.
I definatly acknowlege the fact that you like to exclusively heal, but do you honestly just want to press a heal buttion and convert energy into health, or do you want more engaging healing methods that are not so crude?
Even Vanguard's Cleric is more than a simple heal bot:
They have absolutely insaine buffs that can only be accessed if they are meleeing the foe and use their melee finishers, which are triggered from critical hits.
They have a group-heal proc on their weapon as a buff.
They have the ability to "rescue" an ally, which makes the foe target you for 2 or 3 hits, and this ability also applies a damage soaking rune on the ally you rescued.
The cleric has a melee attack that returns some energy to them, again, cannot be used at range.
You can simply sit back and heal, ANY of the four healers can do this, but if all you do is heal health bars, you quite frankly are not helping your group to the extent that you should.
Also, in my opinion, if all you are capable of doing is straight up healing, that requires minimal skill at best, and your class isnt contibuting nearly enough to be a valid class by itself. No class should ever be that one deminsional.
Healers should not be in direct competition with damage dealing classes nor should damage dealing hybrids heal as well as pure healers. That is where a lot of MMo's go wrong is that they give the option for the healer class to compete damage wise when it serves its purpose as a healer. If you want a damage dealer that can heal there will most likely be one, but if the clerics design is primary healer then it shouldn't be messed with for damage sake.
Did i ever mention a single thing about damage in the post above regarding the vanguard cleric though?
What some people cannot understand is that engaging in melee and other roles that are not specifically "traditional healing" actually make a much more interesting class and game on the whole.
Also, there is nothing hybrid about a healer that also does damage, if you have your game designed properly anyway.
In a good game design, every class should be in someways a hybrid, with multiple layers and roles, rather than a singular role.
Where games go wrong is they provide a "i only heal" or "i only tank" approach, which then puts the game in a position of "well, since this class can only do X, they have to be the best at X."
If you make four diverse classes that can all do X, but each has a different sub role, then you have a game with potential.
In vanguard, you dont just have a "main healer" and some "other healers that do other stuff," you have FOUR main healers, each that have other things they bring along as well, and none of them are really vastly superior to the others.
This lets you still pick your primary role, Healing, while getting the flavor of other classes that you enjoy. In vanguards case, its Martial melee dps healing as the Disciple, cloth-wearing mage dps healing as the Bloodmage, heavy-armor wielding tank healing as the Cleric, and versatile option pet capable support healing as the shaman.
Any game that simply says "this healer is the best at healing" and "these other healers are ok at healing but get some goodies" is a bad set up, because suddenly healer A becomes the required base line, since they are the "best," while healer B, C, and D are only useful for their little parler tricks.
It happened in Eq, and it Wow. It didnt happen in Vanguard.
Hmm
ok, I have to agree Vanguard healers was very well thought out and fun to play, but when thats said healers in vanguard was insanely overpowered in every way possible, i say this after playing cleric/bloodmage in that game since release. Well i would surely be happy if they could make aion cleric that versatile but i doubt it wil ever work out in a pvp game, only reason vanguard could do it was the fact there was no pvp:)
Well, it depends on what you define as overpowered, as the content has never really been tuned since beta.
On the whole, unless you are talking about PVP, which is flat out horrible and shouldnt even be considered when dicussing the "good" qualities of vanguard, healers are not that overpowered in terms of being more functional and important than other classes.
Although my disciple can kick some serious ass in melee dps, that doesnt make a monk's dps any less valuable, as I can never surpass a monk with similar gear who knows how to play his class. Now, against an "average" played/geared monk I certainly do destroy their dps, which is as it should be.
Clerics and Bear shamans are in some ways "overpowered" in that they can tank very well while healing good, which does in some ways negate the need for tanks, except that a tank has more tools to maintain hate.
The part that keeps it balances is that as a Disciple, I cannot heal WHILE doing really high damage. I can heal while doing modest damage simultainously, or I can spam my energy heals for a short time for burst healing.
That is why the class functions so well, because I can adapt on the fly and essentially perform four roles in a group: Melee dps, Off tank, modest dps and healing simultainously, or heavy healing.
If healing is not a concern, I focus on damage almost exclusively, with some instant cast healing and long duration heal over time thrown in. If healing becomes a concern, due to an add, or a mob triggering a damage boosting effect, i switch stances and adapt my play style accordingly.
It makes for a highly satisfiing gaming experience when you know what role you can do when, and your group really notices that you know your stuff.
No pls, NO HYBRIDS! hybrids kinda ruins game balance.... if u want to be a healer be prepared to heal, that's my mojo, and i normally play with healers.
Healers having option to dps in the same way as a dps is always a very very bad thing, why? well it just happens like in WoW.. where u ask if any priest is healer and they're all shadow, where u ask if any druid is healer and they're all feral...
the same for warriors, u ask any warrior for tanking they're all damage...it sucks alot.. i would much rather see a tank tanking, and a healer healing, ofc normally this classes are rarer, but that's why they get in into top notch groups in very quick time..
its the advantages of being healer and tank, faster grouping than all, by that i dont mean, that healers and tanks shouldn't make any damage, au contraire, they should, however, their damage shouldn't ever be on pair with a true base dpser.. or else.. no clerics willing to heal and no templar's willing to tank.
. And before u say "Why Not?".. well if u want to dps really hard, just choose a dps, just dont be amazed, when you're chosen in the last place for a group.