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What I (an MMO Vet) Craves
jonchicoine
Member Posts: 77
What I (an MMO Vet) Craves
There will always be a place for traditional level based, Pavlovian, ring the bell get a treat, MMORPG’s like WOW and EverQuest, but I think there is an “older” generation of players that have maxed at least 1 or 2 characters , and have sampled just about every MMO created in the past 15 years that now desperately crave a new MMORPG paradigm. At the risk of being beheaded, let me also add, that many veteran MMO gamers also probably enjoy a slightly elevated economic status, and while I personally am only slightly beyond living paycheck to paycheck, I would personally pay substantially more for a monthly subscription to help fund a development team that can create a more dynamic world. In other words, I would be more than happy to cancel a number of other accounts and pay $30,$40,$50+ a month for a single game that scratched my 15 year MMO itch.
(On that note, people will pay $20 to go see a movie that only lasts 2 hours, but throw a hissy fit about paying $15 dollars a month to play an MMO. To me… an MMO is entertainment. It is not something I buy to own. It’s something I’m willing to pay for, by the hour almost. Some people will go out to eat on Friday night, or head to a bar and spend $50-$150 for a few hours of entertainment. Times have changed, I believe there are a fair number of people that are willing to pay a tad more the 2 cents an hour, for some good, quality, monthly content updates from a competent group of developers.)
I have spent the past 10 years bouncing from one MMO to another, trying to recapture that heart pounding excitement of my first MMORPG, Asheron’s Call. But alas, I have been unable to quench my thirst for MMO goodness.
So I asked myself, what was it about that first MMORPG gaming experience that made it 10 times better than all the others I've tried since? After some thought, I came to the conclusion that it was the “Unknown Factor”. I had no idea how big the world was. I had no idea how powerful I could become. I didn’t know the name of, nor where to find, the greatest sword the world had ever seen. I didn’t know the limits of magic in my new world. My imagination was running wild all the possibilities. Somehow.. we need to recapture that…
(Ok… that’s mostly what I wanted to say, lol…. You can stop reading now J, unless you’re bored)
(And… If you’ve ever asked about endgame content 2 weeks after launch, and are gaming 24/7 for the sole purpose of reaching max lvl so you can raid or pvp, please stop reading now because you don’t really want to play an RPG anyway!)
(Now, also, let me apologize for my ignorance and any inaccuracies to follow. I am a 15 year business software developer (not games), and despite considering myself a veteran MMO player, I am in no way an expert, and less knowledgeable than many dedicated noobs might be, and feel fortunate when my words congeal to form complete sentences… I just feel a need to vent or something….)
Ten or 15 years ago there weren’t as many, if any, (there must have been some) gaming websites with databases chock full of every little thing you could ever experience in a game. Yes, yes, I know… just because they are there doesn’t mean we need to visit them (but look at those who climb Everest, and why? Cause it’s there J)… but in general there’s often a sense of community and camaraderie with fellow gamers, and there’s no escaping the feeling that if you don’t visit such and such a website, you are gimping yourself, possibly to the extreme of having to reroll because you didn’t understand some new game mechanic or something.
Thus, I think we need a new game mechanic; somehow, something, that creates a world dynamic enough so that every little thing can’t be looked up in some database. Obviously, something more than just a wandering NPC you need to complete a quest. Something that helps perpetuate a feeling of not knowing what’s around the corner. Some magical fluctuating cosmic anomaly (that is not the whim of a dev having a bad day) that says there’s no way of knowing how powerful my spells will be today, this evening or tomorrow. Perhaps tomorrow will be that rare day when my powers are tripled and I can lay waste to all the foes that defeated me in the past.
I won’t pretend that I have THE answer, or any answers for that matter, to accomplish what I know I need to rekindle that old excitement, but I’ll take a stab at it with a few suggestions…. I also know that there are huge numbers of people that will vehemently disagree with me… but I also feel strongly that there is a large population of likeminded people that are craving (and willing to pay for) the same, or similar, experience I am.
Personally, I want a crossbreed, the best parts of Pre NGE/CU SWG + Asheron’s Call (combat)+ Vanguard’s (vastness) +DAOC (RvR) with a hardy helping of innovation.
· I want to log in to have fun. The focus/goal/motivation should not be doing something for the sake of attaining another level, with an end goal of reaching max level, and then asking “what now”. If you put in levels, most people will feel compelled to “grind” or quest or whatever to simple achieve the next level, so that they don’t feel weak and useless. Clearly, different things are “fun” to different people, and what is fun today will not be endlessly fun forever, but surely there must be a way. I think Richard Garret was shooting for this with Tabula Rasa, and achieved it to some degree. There’s simply no way you cannot have fun wading through tons of mobs attacking some checkpoint you’re defending, just mowing them down and knocking them back in mass numbers with a shotgun! Yes, it gets old… but that is just plain fun… for the fun of playing, and not necessarily for just some reward. I want some more of that, pretty please (in addition to some End Game content with regards to Tabula Rasa).
o No more levels (perhaps something akin to early SWG?)
o No more grinding (for the sake of grinding)
o No more classes ( more AC1 style, skill based?)
· Bounds/limits need to be eliminated as much as possible, or at least appear so using something like “diminishing returns” (Again, AC1 style with regards to skills). In other words, if I want to “pump” my sword skill to insane levels make it so that at some point I could increase my sword skill by only 1 more versus increasing my neglected defense by 10. If I want to be able to jump to the moon, let me sacrifice all my other skills so I can be the kangaroo King of jumping! Perhaps some guild will find a need for such a unique individual!
· Exploration Incentive Mechanism – Give me a reason to stuff my pack with supplies and to head out across a seemingly barren desert that could take days (real life days), with no guarantee that my supplies will last long enough for the crossing. Throw in some random weather with real impact, for example if it begins raining, and you’re not dressed for it, you could get sick, weak, or just slow down or something. Make it an adventure to explore, with consequences and rewards that are not based on just your luck of running into a huge pack of social mobs with cheetah like speed. Let me set up a camp like in the early SWG, that is a safe haven from the weather and dangerous mobs that come out at night; some place to recoup. Let other potential adventurers see the glow of my fire from afar (if I choose to build a large one) and seek shelter with me for a small donation of “good will” or some such thing.
o Perhaps there is some story driven mechanic they causes the distances and content in the barren waste lands to change from day to day…. Drifting sand dunes, magic, parallel’ish universes…
o Gimme something I can do while I watch tv, lol…. (I can hear the, “Oh no he didn’ts ringing out, lol)
o Offer up some sort huge reward that I may stumble across if my skill set is adjusted to long boring expeditions through the desert!
· Physical appearance should match and morph to fit play style. If I spend all day casting spells I shouldn’t have big huge Conan muscles; Perhaps, I have some sort of glow about me, or my beard can be grown longer if I am a longtime magic user. If I swing a sword all day, my physical appearance should reflect it, not at first, but as my toon develops and continues to swing his sword, his physical appearance should reflect it. If I spend all damn day jumping everyone I go, my skill should increase in that, as well as the musculature of my toons legs. I also don’t’ think new/young toons should be able to grow facial hair! It would be so cool to watch a character age/mature as it developed. It would also be interesting that if you were not careful, and constantly died cause you were careless, that you wore the scars of your carelessness for everyone to see ( that could perhaps fade over time if you were more cautious). Perhaps there are also plants that can be used to mask ones scars or age for those that are not proud wearers of their own history.
· Character uniqueness/individuality – both visually and skill wise. Something like what I think EQ2 did, where you can wear clothing for example over your armor. In general, you’re rarely close enough to identify someone from their face alone, thus I think customization in this regard can be limited, but you should be able to identify you fellow travelers from their eclectic wardrobe, or choice of dyes.
· An Unknown factor – Give me a reason to revisit an area I have already been to. (think, story driven, wandering “pot of gold”, or something). Perhaps some monsters in a particular area only feed on experienced travelers, and ignore young travelers because they know they will only find what they need on seasoned travelers. I think this would have the effect of making the world seem bigger, because if you can mix and match areas to suit a wider range of players, then you wont’ necessarily “out level” a given area by exploring some other area first. Thus, my wonder lust can continue to be satisfied as an experienced traveler visiting new places frequented by less experienced adventurers hunting easier game.
· A No Nerf Guarantee! – What SOE did (and is still doing) to SWG should be considered a crime and punishable by death! Don’t nerf me! Buff every other class and double mob hit points if you have to, but nothing makes me want to quit more than when I am suddenly hitting for less damage, or lose some skill, blah blah blah. I understand this makes balancing difficult, but who cares, balance is overrated …. Nerf’s cause way more unrest than unbalanced classes (again… just my opinion J) And yes, I know… easier said than done. Seriously, I don’t’ care if it takes me twice as long to kill a given mob…. That’s way better than waking up to find you’ve come down with some insane disease where you now only hit for half as much! NO NERFS, NO NERFS, NO NERFS!
· “Realm” based, PVP Resources, like player built cities, with significant tangible rewards. I know that many think player built cities have a negative impact from a social perspective, but I am suggesting player built cities, not by guild, but by Realm (think of a cross between Shadowbane player built cities and DAOC Castle sieges).
o Again, this is a personal preference, but here are some benefits from this as I see it.
§ First and foremost, this creates a default sense of belonging and community, among all those in a given “realm”, while minimizing the negative side of spreading out the player base into small guild based cities, which can often feel deserted.
§ This allows non guilded, solo adventures to participate… (like DAOC, castle sieges).
§ Allows casual players with limited time to participate without first finding a group, and makes it easier to attend to real life issues when the come up and leave in the middle of a fight without feeling that you are abandoning your mates….
o And of course, you can’t have 1000 vs 1000 players fights with all toons on the screen at the same time. Perhaps a city has multiple attack points, guard towers that are spread out around the city, and there’s some story driven mechanic that makes it easier to take down a city when it’s attacked from multiple points versus everyone attacking the same point.
And now for a few personal preferences that are a tad controversial
· Player collision detection, toons should take up real space and not be allowed to occupy the same space. – Just a personal preference but perhaps could help move some of the processing burden from the Video card to the cpu….
· Allow healing and buffs to those in close proximity, not just those you’re grouped with. Again, I think this makes it easier too for a casual player to participate even when they can only log in for 30 mins at a time….
· No bind on pickup, or very limited use of it…
o I personally don’t like dungeons…. And if I choose to casually kill 1000 low lvl mobs out on the plains, I should be allowed to trade these items at market for more hard to find items that are acquired from high lvl raid bosses and such.
o Yes…. It breeds farming and what not… see next item
o Flame away….
· No level restrictions on gear or buffs (but since I suggest no levels anywho….)
o Again…. Flame away
o One of things I use to love in Asheron’s call was being able to buff the snot out of some low level noob, or better yet, be the recipient of said buffs. Yes, I know that creates an environment more likely to see power leveling services… but I do not care!!!
o Create some ingame, user elected/managed police force capable of dealing with farmers, botters and such….
· Oh yes… lets not forget…. We need Asherons’ call combat mechanics where you can dodge both physical and magic attacks (or at least something like a fireball)
I could go on and on…
Yes Yes… I’m no expert, and I’m sure there are many intelligent reasons why the current lot of MMO’s all have certain game mechanics in common… but I don’t’ want to play those anymore… makes me want to hurl just thinking of it…
*ducks and runs for cover
Comments
I agree with a lot of your post as I'm sure will many on these forums, but sadly one must accept that we (and most of the people who frequent this site) are a tiny minority in the sea of undemanding banality that comprises the current MMO subscriber base.
MMO companies have always, and will always, make products designed for maximum revenue and right now, that means WoW clones. MMO companies won't take risks when MMO's cost so much to develop.
I really do think the next step in MMOs is an ever changing world we play in. I feel too much content is fixed, go here, kill this type of content. Here is another way to run a quest.:
You run across a soldier who is dying and tells you to retrieve a messenger pouch. (Pretty standard quest starter).
What is different is that you have been to this spot a 100 times and never seen this quest giver before. Reason is the quest has never happened before, it is random. As is the quest line. There is no mob location set where you can shout out, "where do I complete the Messenger pouch quest". In fact it could be a 3 or 4 stage process to complete the quest. Once done, quest goes away. There may be 50 people working on this quest, but once it is completed thats it. Completing a quest would be a true accomplishment, not just a step every players has taken before you to get to the next level.
At the end of such a quest should be a bonus reward, in addition to loot and xp, maybe increased honor, fame, faction or such that opens up certain other things in the game like property ownership, Invitations to compete in tournaments, or your own market, whatever. Each player upon completion of a quest could pick what reward they wanted, Fame or Faction for example with each road leading to different opportunities.
Point is the world would become once again an exciting unknown place where you are truly adventuring in stead of grinding. I think with most MMOs the adventurous feel disappears after a couple weeks (that is if you do not jump on a website and read how to complete all the quests).
Now, I know that a continuously changing content would put a high demand on developers to continually think up new things, but that is better to me than adding a new area with the same boring content I just did.
If you can have random loot drops, you can have random content...its just a lot more code. I would be willing to pay $50 a month for an ever changing game that made exploration truly adventurous.
Great Idea Quest2b1!
I love it.
I want to CHOOSE how to play the game.
Not to be forced with better rewards in a gameplay I don't even want to play to start with.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think you're expecting too much from investor vote games.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Newsflash, everything isnt allways the way you want things. Otherwise things would be perfect. Its all fine saying you want parts of each game, anyone can say that, you think game developers dont think that? You think they can just make what you think is good for you what you want??
God if i could pick and chose the things the way I wanted, I would have ronaldo, messi, kaka ronaldinho, eto all in my arsenal team, but it will never happen.
Once you have what you just suggested then you will get people saying I want something different. Nobody can ever be happy with what they have they always want new things.
I agree with Anofayle. I want to choose. What happened to role-playing?
I grew up on UO for a long time and then took a long break from MMOs when the trends starting moving towards nothing but pvp/pve melee for rewards I didn't want. I loved having the choice. I could log a few hours launching arrows at harpies outside of town, then I could switch and work on carpentry skills just to build a character (that skill was useless at the time), and then log on a treasure hunter and wander around trying to dig up a few chests, not knowing what would be in em and imagining the possibilities.
It had problems. All of these games do. And they all have shelf-lives. Imagination was what made it fun and the sense that I had only explored 1 tenth of 1 percent of the possibilities in game. I'd think about trying an alchemist or fisherman or tailor or mage. There was seemingly no limit to the amount of roles you could play if you really wanted to. Now nothing is rewarded except the same role, the same character, doing the same thing as everyone else to get the same things that everyone has until they've done everything and maxed out competely after just a few months of playing.
But alas, graphics ruled, profit margins ruled, and RPG was dropped off of the end of MMORPG.
Sad.
Anybody have any suggestions of a game me and my old buddies could get into that offers that sense of role-playing? I want to get back in but every box I read or every review sounds like WoW and I already get bored with the game before I finish reading.
Well, the guys behind Citadel of Sorcery are promising a world where every bit of the story is tailor-made for your character, and no two players' stories are alike. They say their quest engine is very complex, sophisticated, and dynamic. They are also promising advanced AI strategies that will make PvE a real challenge for the first time in MMO history.
Will they be able to deliver on their promises? Who knows? Will the quests generated by such a system be picked apart and spoiled on fan sites once players figure out how they are being constructed? Probably.
But at least someone is trying.
In a word: EVE. It's one of the few MMO's I've played that made me feel I was in true control of my character. Every other MMO I've played have left me with the vague sense that I was following a scripted yellow-brick-road of linear progression.
I love all the great ideas everyone has posted here, and I don't think the games scheduled for near release (2008/2009) will deliver any of it. Some of the next crop hold some promise though.
But the good news is in the meantime, i'll be playing EVE, which contains more of the elements everyone posted here than most other games, and is still growning every day.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I still have an Active EVE account... but it's just not cutting it for me... but I agree, it's different enough and allows enough variety to not get stale overnight. having said that, back when eve first came out, in the first few months, is when I really loved it.
Free to explore 0.0 and go 30 jumps and never see a soul 
... and that's a good thing for all of you who dont' play eve, cause the odds are if you run into anyone else, they'll have friends, and they 'll kill you and THEN wave hello...
but i can dream can't i
I vote for perma death too! - god, can you imagine the stress! OK... I got it... allow an optional perma death mode in free for all pvp area, where you get 10x xp.... lol... i would craft!
I thought the whole idea of a message board was to share ideas
Anyways, I am sure at some point someone will release a MMO that has a little more AI for the NPCs and will get rid of the contantantly respawning mobs.
How cool would it be if players actually triggered a quest? Imagine you kill someone and without either player doing anything a quest is given out to another player to revenge him. This quest goes out to 20 players then stops...now you have an actual price on your head and do not even know it. On the flip side 20 players are given the quest to defend you...stuff like that would be so fun.
I can see something like that working well with a game like CoX, or perhaps even Champions when it comes out. If they could find away to impliment that kind of thing in slightly less favored games such as Matrix Online it would certainly increase their value.
May the Chaos forever bind you to it's glory.
I agree with you except for this.
"(On that note, people will pay $20 to go see a movie that only lasts 2 hours, but throw a hissy fit about paying $15 dollars a month to play an MMO. To me… an MMO is entertainment. It is not something I buy to own. It’s something I’m willing to pay for, by the hour almost. Some people will go out to eat on Friday night, or head to a bar and spend $50-$150 for a few hours of entertainment. Times have changed, I believe there are a fair number of people that are willing to pay a tad more the 2 cents an hour, for some good, quality, monthly content updates from a competent group of developers.)"
A movie ticket is five to ten dollars. With an addition of soda and popcorn it may reach twenty dollars. And don't tell me that you're watching the movie with another person because I don't think the fifteen dollars a month is for more than one account, and I do believe that only one person has access to one account (it is like that, at least, for most games).
You are also paying for the memories and value. For instance you can look back at a party and not regret it, but once you have quit a game and you look back a few years later you will see it as a complete waste.
Maybe it is because I am drifting away from the MMORPG genre. The reason is probably because, like you said, I want to play for fun. I want to experience a game the same way I experience that movie. In the MMORPG genre I am not a part of the game and my sole purpose is to get a higher level skill to kill my opponent more proficiently. The obvious way to have an advantage is better attack and better defense. So I see those nice items with a red warning sign telling me I must be level 91 to equip it. To advance to this level I am required to play mindlessly for hundreds of hours. And let's say I play for two hours day. I'd be spending all this time and money to get a weapon to defeat my opponent. UH OH... the weapon also requires many gold coins! Time to head to the city and sell all that loot that I forgot to pick up.
bleh blah bluh booh
and so on.
I want it to be so that you have to do something honorable to achieve a rare item. Not something like winning a contest for having the highest level on the new server. Something like me opening a new character and completing something of which I did not even know was special. For instance traveling a thousand in-game miles would reward me with a random prize that could possibly make me travel quicker. And this wouldn't be a quest that told you to run a thousand miles, you would do it without even knowing it. The server would automatically keep track of how much distance I had covered.
For now I have more fun sniping heads in Call of Duty 4. But in the future I would pay good money to play a game where I felt I was actually in a new land and not on my butt staring at a screen counting down the amount of experience required to get that new armor. I think that everyone including myself will just talk about this perfect game and many of us will never see it though. And that is the reason why I have found myself playing single-player RPG games more and more often. And what we are asking for is not to play the role, we are asking to play a role. One of which we choose not when we are starting the game, but when we have experienced it. We all know that in real life we didn't choose to be archers before we were born, c'mon... that's just silly now.
I thought the whole idea of a message board was to share ideas
Anyways, I am sure at some point someone will release a MMO that has a little more AI for the NPCs and will get rid of the contantantly respawning mobs.
How cool would it be if players actually triggered a quest? Imagine you kill someone and without either player doing anything a quest is given out to another player to revenge him. This quest goes out to 20 players then stops...now you have an actual price on your head and do not even know it. On the flip side 20 players are given the quest to defend you...stuff like that would be so fun.
I'd rather have a game without NPCs at all.
the OPs ideas are great. I too would love to see a player driven skill based ever changing world. I know developers are mostly concerned with profits and wow clones atm but I think that there is an ever growing population that is a mix of oldtimers and newcomers bored with the current state of mmos. Once a company takes are risk and does a good job of execution I think they will actually find a profitable market of desperate and content hungry players.
Yea, this is the game that many of us are waiting for...who knows if we'll ever see it.
At this point though, I'd just like to see a new MMO with a massive skill system. For me, that feature alone would make an MMO entertaining. Give me a huge list of skills, a skill cap, and then just let me pick what ever kooky combo I want. If the game isn't heavily focused on just one area (*cough* combat) you'd probably see a ridiculous amount of unique builds. Great. Let the players decide how they want to play the game, instead of herding them down a very narrow path to no where.
I mean, when you think about it, thats what an RPG is supposed to be. All of these MMO's spout off about RPG this and RPG that, but in reality, theres very little RPG in them.
Agreed, the game we dream of may be nothing more than that, a dream... but without dreams we wouldn't even have computers, let alone mmorps of any type. So keep dreaming, and voicing those dreams. You never know what might come of it.
May the Chaos forever bind you to it's glory.
there was a game that had all of that.
it was very balanced and had some of the greatest content ever. it was called swg pre-cu.
combat was fun and more about player skill.
content was great like pvp fights that lasted a whole weekend. and quests to unlock and make your own jedi knight.
sadly this system was stolen from us by some people who wanted star warcraft. they robbed us of the single greatest mmo ever and the greatest story ever told yours.
that is why me and 250k swg subs fight $OE in hopes that $OE will roll the game back to the pre-cu system. something they will have to do as the once great game that had 250k people and was going up is now down to 7k and droping like a rock.
Well, I guess I won't download the trial afterall. It is sad to see when games are ruined, for whatever reason, and to watch them sink into oblivion. Especially when they are games that were ideal. I suppose that's life, very rarely do good things last.
May the Chaos forever bind you to it's glory.