Death can be good, with players not afraid to die, but part of the fun.
There is just one option - Death done right.
ok, now i understand you. but my question still aplies: what kind of death done right do you prefer? one that will happen seldomly but will have heavy consecuences, or one that happens all the time but without hardly any consecuence?
BOTH types of death you listed just now work. And at the same time do not work. Here's why:
1. There cannot be 1 game that pleases everyone. Which means there can never be a type of death that pleases everyone. This is why I say both types of death you list do not work, because neither type will please the majority.
It does not matter what type of death a mmorpg has, as long as that mmorpg gets a minimum of 50k accounts. IF it can get 100k accounts, then it is a bona-fid hit mmorpg. This is why I say both types of death you list do work. Both types have been in hit mmorpgs, which shows there is a market for both. No need to go with just one type..... So ALL types of death, are death done right - as long as the mmorpg has 50k accounts. Has 100k accounts. Now I, or some posters in this thread, on this site, might not play it, but it will have it's own fanbase that will play it, that will make it a hit. If someone dislikes the style of death in a certain mmorpg, they should shop around, and choose another (it's whiy I play Strive for Power, and Diablo 2 Hardcore).
It's just like music. No one group will ever please every consumer. A music artist has to simply make whatever music they want, and it will not matter as long as they sell 200k to 500k records. If they sell 1 million records then they are a bona-find hit.
2. If mmorpg "A" has perma-death, and it has enough accounts to make a profit, all is well. If mmorpg "B" has no death at all, and it has enough accounts to make a profit, all is well. "A" and "B" have carved out their own unique fanbase. There is room in the market for every type of mmorpg, with every type of death.
It is the moneymen, the suits and ties, the bean-counters, who are to blame for chasing after the idea that 1 single mmorpg can be made that ALL players will like. It will never happen. The same way no 1 single music group will cater to ALL listeners.
What is presently aggravating many players, is the lack of choice mmorpgs. Every mmorpg is now being forced to try to be like WoW (no real death) or EQ clone (harsh death... though EQ is drifting towards WoW territory.). What's really needed is more mmorpgs, with many, many, different types of death. Or at least, new servers in existing mmorpgs with different types of death. I'm still shocked to this day WoW does not open some perma-death servers! Their company has proven perma-death works, that there is a market for perma-death.
dude, i aint no developer. i know all the things you said. i do not want to get rid of all the games that do not fit with this poll result. this is just a opinion poll. i just want players to answer what kind of death system they prefer. that is all.
it sems that you believe i am trying to find the final answer to mmorpg oldest question and then publish it on every newspaper. but no, this is just a survey. if you want to asnwer, i'll be most grateful.
Nope, don't like harsh death penalties. I'm much happier with the trend towards making death trivial. Depending on the game and how harsh the penalty it might even affect whether or not I play that particular game. Of course, the past couple of years I've become very, very casual and only play MMOs a couple hours or so a few times a week, so light death penalties suit me more than some.
Harsh death penalties and forced grouping combined make for a very, very, boring game. People will kick out from the group anyone that does not walk the straight and narrow. Groups will tackle only easy, minuscule threats. You just stand around and take on one boring "pull/squash" encounter after another.
If the game allows solo play, then at least a player doesn't have to conform to the group.
If a game doesn't have a big death penalty, then again, conforming isn't of utmost importance and groups are more likely to take risky encounters.
Great stories and adventures are filled with risk. However, MMOs require players to invest so much time, to risk that when you could merely level up more and take the safe route seems silly.
I have returned to playing FFXI after some time away and I must admit I'd forgotten the real adrenaline rush that you get when you know you're in a perilous situation and you can lose hours of gameplay if you're not really careful.
I really love it. It actually gets my heart rate up so much I can feel it.
Furthermore it's not always simply a matter of taking the easy route. Sometimes the game forces you through zones where 90% of the mobs will dispatch you quickly and effortlessly.
There are of course times when it is frustrating, but when you cheat death by a fraction through skillful play, or clever preparation it's superb.
As an older gamer I remember the times before game saves, and even games that you could not pause to take a break from the action (yeahI know that's stupid). I remember when the games mags first started giving codes for games so you could have infinite lives and weapons etc. I have simply never understood why people would want to take all of the excitement and danger out of a game just so they can complete it quicker.
I'm absolutely not a fan of permadeath as we can all make mistakes. Just last week I spilt the wine and somehow managed to protect my keyboard and the carpet. If I found I'd delevelled all the way whilst looking after my stuff I'd really not have found that fun.
I think the way it was handled in FFXI was great, it was kind of in between. You had like a 10% exp loss, but you kept your gear. In other words, there was a penalty, but not nearly as severe as to make you want to throw your keyboard against the wall
I do like the way WoW handles death because it has allowed me to not be so afraid of PvPing. Unlike EQ where you could loose all your equipment and all your valuable items you worked hard to get.
Harsh death penalties and forced grouping combined make for a very, very, boring game. People will kick out from the group anyone that does not walk the straight and narrow. Groups will tackle only easy, minuscule threats. You just stand around and take on one boring "pull/squash" encounter after another.
Why must MMO's be based around "pull/squash" game dynamics at all?
You ever saw a real fight/battle play out like your typical MMO pull/squash/respawn scenario?
I think it depends on the type of game. PvM games need to have a harsh death penalty. PvP games shouldn't. In a PvM game if you're dying a LOT you just suck and really need to get better at the game. You can have the same harsh death penalties in a PvP game, but what happens is people will start to use numbers to their advantage to the point where nobody wants an even fight due to the death penalty. EvE is a great example with all the gate gankers.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Comments
ok, now i understand you. but my question still aplies: what kind of death done right do you prefer? one that will happen seldomly but will have heavy consecuences, or one that happens all the time but without hardly any consecuence?
BOTH types of death you listed just now work. And at the same time do not work. Here's why:
1. There cannot be 1 game that pleases everyone. Which means there can never be a type of death that pleases everyone. This is why I say both types of death you list do not work, because neither type will please the majority.
It does not matter what type of death a mmorpg has, as long as that mmorpg gets a minimum of 50k accounts. IF it can get 100k accounts, then it is a bona-fid hit mmorpg. This is why I say both types of death you list do work. Both types have been in hit mmorpgs, which shows there is a market for both. No need to go with just one type..... So ALL types of death, are death done right - as long as the mmorpg has 50k accounts. Has 100k accounts. Now I, or some posters in this thread, on this site, might not play it, but it will have it's own fanbase that will play it, that will make it a hit. If someone dislikes the style of death in a certain mmorpg, they should shop around, and choose another (it's whiy I play Strive for Power, and Diablo 2 Hardcore).
It's just like music. No one group will ever please every consumer. A music artist has to simply make whatever music they want, and it will not matter as long as they sell 200k to 500k records. If they sell 1 million records then they are a bona-find hit.
2. If mmorpg "A" has perma-death, and it has enough accounts to make a profit, all is well. If mmorpg "B" has no death at all, and it has enough accounts to make a profit, all is well. "A" and "B" have carved out their own unique fanbase. There is room in the market for every type of mmorpg, with every type of death.
It is the moneymen, the suits and ties, the bean-counters, who are to blame for chasing after the idea that 1 single mmorpg can be made that ALL players will like. It will never happen. The same way no 1 single music group will cater to ALL listeners.
What is presently aggravating many players, is the lack of choice mmorpgs. Every mmorpg is now being forced to try to be like WoW (no real death) or EQ clone (harsh death... though EQ is drifting towards WoW territory.). What's really needed is more mmorpgs, with many, many, different types of death. Or at least, new servers in existing mmorpgs with different types of death. I'm still shocked to this day WoW does not open some perma-death servers! Their company has proven perma-death works, that there is a market for perma-death.
dude, i aint no developer. i know all the things you said. i do not want to get rid of all the games that do not fit with this poll result. this is just a opinion poll. i just want players to answer what kind of death system they prefer. that is all.
it sems that you believe i am trying to find the final answer to mmorpg oldest question and then publish it on every newspaper. but no, this is just a survey. if you want to asnwer, i'll be most grateful.
I need one type that fits all. I also believe it can be done. Untill then, diferent levels of arbitrary will have to do.
Nope, don't like harsh death penalties. I'm much happier with the trend towards making death trivial. Depending on the game and how harsh the penalty it might even affect whether or not I play that particular game. Of course, the past couple of years I've become very, very casual and only play MMOs a couple hours or so a few times a week, so light death penalties suit me more than some.
Harsh death penalties and forced grouping combined make for a very, very, boring game. People will kick out from the group anyone that does not walk the straight and narrow. Groups will tackle only easy, minuscule threats. You just stand around and take on one boring "pull/squash" encounter after another.
If the game allows solo play, then at least a player doesn't have to conform to the group.
If a game doesn't have a big death penalty, then again, conforming isn't of utmost importance and groups are more likely to take risky encounters.
Great stories and adventures are filled with risk. However, MMOs require players to invest so much time, to risk that when you could merely level up more and take the safe route seems silly.
I have returned to playing FFXI after some time away and I must admit I'd forgotten the real adrenaline rush that you get when you know you're in a perilous situation and you can lose hours of gameplay if you're not really careful.
I really love it. It actually gets my heart rate up so much I can feel it.
Furthermore it's not always simply a matter of taking the easy route. Sometimes the game forces you through zones where 90% of the mobs will dispatch you quickly and effortlessly.
There are of course times when it is frustrating, but when you cheat death by a fraction through skillful play, or clever preparation it's superb.
As an older gamer I remember the times before game saves, and even games that you could not pause to take a break from the action (yeahI know that's stupid). I remember when the games mags first started giving codes for games so you could have infinite lives and weapons etc. I have simply never understood why people would want to take all of the excitement and danger out of a game just so they can complete it quicker.
I'm absolutely not a fan of permadeath as we can all make mistakes. Just last week I spilt the wine and somehow managed to protect my keyboard and the carpet. If I found I'd delevelled all the way whilst looking after my stuff I'd really not have found that fun.
interesting, after 50 votes, 60% prefer harsher death penalties, and 40% are glad with getting back into the action ala counter or UT
I think the way it was handled in FFXI was great, it was kind of in between. You had like a 10% exp loss, but you kept your gear. In other words, there was a penalty, but not nearly as severe as to make you want to throw your keyboard against the wall
I do like the way WoW handles death because it has allowed me to not be so afraid of PvPing. Unlike EQ where you could loose all your equipment and all your valuable items you worked hard to get.
Death is not a "penalty". Death should simply be a fact of life.
Linear progression, loot and spawns, however, should not.
Why must MMO's be based around "pull/squash" game dynamics at all?
You ever saw a real fight/battle play out like your typical MMO pull/squash/respawn scenario?
I think it depends on the type of game. PvM games need to have a harsh death penalty. PvP games shouldn't. In a PvM game if you're dying a LOT you just suck and really need to get better at the game. You can have the same harsh death penalties in a PvP game, but what happens is people will start to use numbers to their advantage to the point where nobody wants an even fight due to the death penalty. EvE is a great example with all the gate gankers.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel