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Are MMOs becoming massively singleplayer?
ladyattis
Member Posts: 1,273
I pose this question in light of my own conclusions about the majority of 'modern' MMOs, where the entire set of 'content' that one can play is fashioned to be from the perspective of a single player as opposed to multiple players. Whether we're talking about Tabula Rasa or talking about Vanguard, or Everquest 2 or even World of Warcraft. Each one of these MMOs can be effectively played solo with no need to even have the chat window open save for to bicker with others if one so chooses. This observation makes me wonder where MMO developers went wrong, by that I mean that the entire point of MMOs is the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER aspect of the 'genre' (I use this loosely), where you're stuck with strangers and suppose to cooperate in some function to win out over extraordinary odds. Yet, this doesn't pan out like it anymore. I doubt it has anything to do with the playerbases getting older otherwise people would become total shut-ins in real life, so I'm puzzled by this development. Is it because it makes development easier for the companies? Or is it because they're trying to appeal to the largest segments of the market? I have my own ideas on it, but I rather see what you all have to say.
-- Brede
Comments
I see where you're coming from, but I think the solution doesn't lie in one way or the other. The point of a massively multiplayer world is that it's a shared world, not that one is expected to play in teams or groups. Truly, the problem is that MMORPGs are far too linear, not allowing players to interact in a normal, healthy manner. I won't go into details for fear of ranting our all my ideas for the perfect MMO, but the point is both are needed. The trick is, developers need to change individual quests into larger, world-encompassing quests that will take different players in different places throughout the game community to both decipher and complete. More world-changing quests that will actually effect the advancement of the game's underlying plot. Do I make sense?
It's about community, not 'quests'. Living in a world with hundreds or thousands of other people brings the world alive and makes it dynamic. That's the appeal of an MMO over a single-player game.
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That sums up my sentiment exactly. I like questing, sure, but where's the fracking tavern? Or why can't I open my own? How about a bounty board on materials from animals (for those that like farming mobs anyways) that I pay a premium for some and bulk for others? Basically, where can I exert my influence on the game world in major and minor ways? If there is none, why make it a multiplayer monthly fee game? Why not just tailor it up as the next Mass Effect and put it up on Steam for me to buy for 45USD? I guess I won't get a handle on these developers and their ideas considering I'm my own wouldbe developer. *shrugs*
-- Brede
I played original EQ for years. I understand what you mean about far more solo play being added in as compared to the almost forced grouping of EQ. However, I think it is somewhat for the better.
I remember grouping was hit or miss. I also remember how hard it was to get a group. There's no way I am going to play a game where I have to spend a couple hours just to find a group. It takes far too much time. Especially if I can only play a few hours at night. Which is one of the main reasons I don't play EQ anymore. Also factor in getting a bad group that doesn't cooperate or has some immature, whiny, bossy group leader that freaks out if there is the slightest bad pull or death and I see solo play as extremely refreshing.
On the other hand, I made several long lasting friends through Pick up groups that i otherwise would not have met. So grouping does tend to make the game far more actively social.
Personally, while I do enjoy a good group, I do not play for a long enough chunk of time at one time to be able to group. Add to that having to take numerous breaks / AFK's (especially since I have kids). So, for me, making tons of solo play actually means that I can play MMO's at all.
I don't think adding in solo play has killed the social aspect of MMO's. I would put more blame on too much linear questing (everyone's always moving on to a new, better area) and the more, more faster, faster I must be max level in 3 days mentality that seems to run wild now. If people would slow down and be more free to explore, then I think it promotes more social behavior.
Just my opinion, of course.
I just posted about that in another post. I think you are correct MMO's are becoming single player games.
It is a very Emotional subject. But I think the bottom line is the companies are responding to the market. The newer players say thaey dont have time to find groups and I think some do not want the enteraction with other people.
They market has changed and I think those of us who like to group have been left out in the cold.
By the way I am not a hardcore player. I have a family and work for a living. I get on maybe 2 or three times a week for a couple of hours. Some times on a weekend I may play 5 or 6 hours. Also I do not raid. I just like to long on find a group and have some fun.
I have found that in games that I play that need a group I dont have any trouble finding one. (DDO & COH) So I wonder why people say they have trouble finding groups ?? I dont like to say this but maybe the newer players are form the "me" generation. Also I see a lot of posts where people complain that they do not want to pug with new people or strangers as that may make their progress in the game slower. I guess they forgot someone probably helped them when they were new. Also what is the problem with leveling slowly. You see those same people at max level whining about lack of content.
Oh well its more than I can understand.
You and me, both. I think there are a lot of us 'would-be devs' around with strong feelings about what the MMORPG industry is missing. Right now quests consist of seek and destroy, that's all. This means that even if players wanted to, they wouldn't be able to work together to complete a task in any way but the one provided. Quests need to require critical thinking. If players are mulling over their quests when they aren't playing, then the devs and the writers are doing a good job.
I'd love to see devs put the community within the grasp of those who make up the community. For example, ditch the bank system for items and allow players to open and manage taverns/hotels and such. To store you items, either buy/build a house to store your extra stuff, or rent a room from another player's business.
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The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
Personally, I don't think that an any game should force you to team with other players. That is not to say I don't team up, I spend most of my team with guild mates running quests. However, my not everyone has the luxury of having a solid guild of friends they can run with and pick up teams can, at times, feel like more like a handicap then a help.
So the only reasonable solution is to make it possible to solo play. But this is probably the most difficult thing to balance in my opinion. You want to afford people the option to advance without having to stand around and wait for a team but at the same time there needs to be incentive to group up. I do believe in being able to solo simply because I don't pay for a game to wait for someone else to allow me to have fun. Games with high solo value are still massive and still multiplier it is just that, like in real life we have the option of interacting with some people.
It's the difference between a living, persistent game world VS a "game" in a persistent world.
More and more people begin to show interest in MMORPGs and developers start to lower the "standard" of MMORPG, and the "simplify" the idea behind MMORPGs.
If MMORPG reflect a "persistent world" view, then the need for group will show, and the interface for teaming up and even just socializing with others will be created in detail. (when "socialize" is not just looking for people to do quests with).
But, unfortunately, people starts to view MMORPG as games more than a fantasied simulation of a world. Hence the need for solo (so they don't feel like wasting time.) And that Group contents are still there, but the "socialization" is limited to either talking to group, guild for the sole purpose of quest/raid (goal-oriented games)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I'm convinced that the biggest factor hindering this genre of games really is the very dated leveling system. As far as I'm concerned, levels should be abolished. Look at EVE, for example... It has no level system, and that makes the game more playable.
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The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
I have also always found it interesting that in most cases what is being talked about is MMORPG’s but few see issues with the RP part of the equation dropping off or are completely relegated to a single server or so. It is a game and that being said it is hard to make people play it the way we what or in many cases even the way it was designed. The one thing that’s always true is that someone will figure out a way to make things do what they were never intended to.
I think in part the issue may be that multy player does not implicitly imply a need to group. In the past in many ways it was seen that way but the games changed to incorporative more of the social and trade aspects which are also parts of multy player. I see a significant aspect of multy player as having other living players to measure your accomplishment against.
I think instancing has hurt the massive aspect of the games as there is no longer competition with the rest of the population for opportunities. Each player or group has their own instance instead limited of the need to compete for them.
But here's a funnier fact: I tend to be a soloist in MMOs. But I state that with a proviso: it's nice to hang out and help people along the way. Whether it's LOTRO and I'm removing a debuff on a random player as I speed past to turn in a quest or whether I'm in TR defending or capturing a CP, I'm usually helping folks out along the way. Once in a while, it gives me the opportunity to find a group for a couple hours (or a few), to which is very fun and often there's not many, if any, screw ups on any of our parts (considering these two games grouping and soloing in each is fairly easy either way). What bugs me is that I think there's a trend in the playerbase where a population of players (I can't say how many versus the total number...) that believe that socialization should be minimized, but not eliminated. That means MMOs get boiled down to the occasional LFG, but mostly general chat for tradeskillers, item swapping, and etc, but no real intensive interactions say like role playing or some sort of territorial PVP or interdependent tradeskilling (materials are harvested by X trade profession for Y trade profession to make Z product from...) or any other sort of human friendly mechanism in games today.
By human friendly mechanism, I define it as: any mechanism that facilitates the psychological, emotional, and/or intellectual needs of players through social interaction. This could include a number of things, which I illustrated prior, all of which really make the game very good for its players in respect to relaxation because at our best we tend to be very social animals, looking for all sorts of positive interactions throughout the day (even when we work for Bog's sake!). In the end, if developers don't reverse this unhuman friendly game mechanism(s) trend, I fear that singleplayer game developers will extinct them and their titles by providing the same experience, but without the hassle of a PC and the monthly fee.
I have nothing to say against solo. I may complain that I am better rewarded if I am solo than group, but I would still group and solo in such a game. You cannot make me drown in an overdose of soloing-content. I have nothing against it, in any form.
However, I crave for grouping, and for grouping I will always try to sway everything. PvE content for 8 players or less (whatever the size of your 1 group, 8 is stretching it a lot already), nothing else. This is what I want, what I crave for. This been said, solo, is part of that definition of what I crave for, at the most basic, it is a group of 1. Not my ideal setting, but definitely something I can support and accept. I rather see everything be solo-able than see 1 thing which can't be done with 1 group in my game, and that isn't negociable. Raid/RvR/PvP abuses in the past lead to a no compromises setting here. If you accept 1 tiny abuse, it will lead to a bigger. No thanks. I want grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You've go the right idea, ladyattis. I couldn't possibly agree more. Would you do me a huge favor and visit the link in my signature? I'd love to have someone like you on-board, if you're interested...
My group is forming in an effort to solve these very issues.
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The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
Its really all come down to the culture.
Single player MMORPGs are always been from Korean, North america and Europe. (china /taiwan / hong kong too)
The reason is the people belong to their culture enjoy more interm of alonliness more, self-efficient.
While MMORPG that focus on teamwork/ group oriented are more Japanese.
There mmo are more focus on community and communication. Japanese enjoy rely on others more and have higher tendency doing co-operated works. You can see this in how japanese interact where they would never "usually" start any conversation rudely and they will address you properly just to show they want to maintain in good relation.
Its in the psychology classes, if you don't believe me, check out your local university cross-culture psychology.
Korean MMO aren't Japanese MMO, don't mix them. Japan release quite few titles every years as well, its easy to get them mix if you don't know japanese or korean.
none
I think that there could be a happy middle ground with more complex quests in place. Imagine if you will a quest to kill some big bad NPC however to resolve the puzzles of the dungeon you need a team of multiple people all going in separate directions in the same dungeon, working in a timed fashion to clear the way, disable potential threats and all regrouping to take on the final enemy. This gives a since of strategy and timing while allowing a person to feel individually successful. Would quests of the nature be closed off to solo players maybe maybe not depending on how such things are handled.
I think a more interesting quest system is needed to encourage grouping and still allow solo play. But as everyone knows and has been said many times before all quests involve pointless slaughtering and run here grab this and take it somewhere else. Puzzles requiring varying archetypes for success are probably the best solution.
Such a generalisation.
Europe = soloers. Well, let's me tell you something, the Frenchs are a LOT more group-oriented and "community" driven, for the better and the worst, then even the Japanese.
Your soloist stand consider the anglo-saxon world, which value individuality as been a critical part of a good community, you cannot have a healthy whole if the parts are diseased. Or something like that. The Frenchs have a "sacrifice the individual for the best of the community" mentality.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
solo content is always good, but the fact is, people wouldn't mind grouping. the real problem is that grouping is too hard, and people are too lazy. I quit the everquest series because it seriously became everLFG. NO ONE wants to sit in freeport and spam LvL/Class LFG for 2 hours.
the best LFG feature I have ever seen is in Dungeons and Dragons Online.. people can set up a group, and people wanting to join can just join without even asking as long as they meet the criteria to join.
to make it worse, games like everquest and vanguard have more than 10 classes, yet only 5-6 people can fit in a group, so to have the perfect group to do tough content, you have to search for 5-6 very specific classes, which make it really BORING just to get into a single god damn dungeon. SORRY GUYS, we need a warrior or we can't go, SORRY GUYS, we need a cleric or we can't go.. you get my drift?
yeah you can solo grind in any mmo, but you cant solo the stuff that requires groups, if you wanna do group quests they are there and even offer better rewards and xp, it appears you only look at doing the solo stuff.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Well as a proponent of singleplayer games and soloing I have to say I think MMOs are becoming more like singleplayer games, but not where it counts.
I prefer to solo, one I don't always have time and two I like to know I can do things by myself. But I don't think soloing is the wrench in the virtual world's spokes, it doesn't prevent a virtual world from being made. Likewise grouping does not create a virtual world in and of itself, the right tools and abilities need to be made in the game for a more virtual world to happen. I do think there is room for the soloer in a virtual world. On the business side there are alot of players that like to solo on occasion or a lot and is important for sells. Even in the virtual world soloers are not isolated from the community, doing quests solo to help out a community quest, running a business solo, crafting solo, clearing areas of mobs solo and such, all important contributions to the game community and all done by yourself, being in a community doesn't have mean together all the time, seperate but together works as well. Just think of all the things you do from day to day by yourself, yet still has an effect on the global economy and well being for your community.
Ideas from single player games like using linear quests as the sole form of progression through the game is tiresome and makes me resent the otherwise fun quests, because now they are basically work. Even single player games have gone beyond the linear formula for the most part and offer plot twists, options and more sandbox elements. Basically MMOs are adopting some elements from single player games, but what elements they are using are outdated. This isn't to say that MMOs were better back when, they weren't, they have much improved since then, just maybe not as quickly as other genres.
I am going to partially agree with Lodeclaw, levels are hindering MMOGs, but not just levels, skill levels or anything that forces the game into a strict hierarchy, when power differences are great it polarizes people and makes the focus of the game on gaining more power. Something I think MMOGs can learn from single player and regular multiplayer games is playing for its own sake, MMOGs should first and foremost fun, not an endless cycle of kill things to get better stuff to kill more things to get better stuff to kill more things to get better stuff to kill...
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Classes should never make or break a party, if you ask me. Honestly, if the combat system isn't flexible enough to allow players to modify their tactics and do just as well with an unusual group, then obviously the devs spent way too much time worrying about fedex quests, 'cause they seem to have that covered and some.
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The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
You nailed it, Cactus.
That's what I want to see in my fondest dreams.
===========
The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
People who wish to socialize will do so, and will find others rather easily that wish to do the same. There is no need for a game system to foster this, other than making it an accessible choice.
The broader the market, the more available to all player types, the better the market will be. A game doesn't suffer from offering solo content, but it does suffer from lacking it.
I think forcing people into any activity is bad.. i think that the options need to be there for both. I like to play both ways depending on the mood so what the games need is MORE PLAYER FREEDOMS. It is the limits that isolate players more than anything I think. Persistent worlds are a must and a good chat system is needed as well. Though I haven;t even seen a chat system I am happy with so i continue to use private messengers instead simply because i can choose who i want to talk to and when without removing them entirely. I would prefer voice chat in games myself making it even easier to communicate with players. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a group full of little kids just so you can get a task completed and would not wish that upon anyone. Making you have to group does just that, and then people are less likely to want to group in the future. Being able to find out more about people before getting into stuff like that makes grouping alot more enjoyable for everyone. When you look at a city entertainment district.. it is full of activities for all kinds of people, if games were made with more options of things for people to do i think that the social nature of the games would be better. Instead of making pk everywhere or no pk anywhere just have different areas for everything so that players with common interests can find each other easier.
Seriously though, the single largest detriment I find to grouping is not lack of a perfect group, it is the fact that people only want to work on THEIR quests. No one is willing to join a group just to have fun and play, they all want to go to a specific location, accomplish a specific task, and leave. No interest in helping anyone else out, no intentions of staying once they are done with their task, no willingness to go anywhere else.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I quit FF11 because of the forced grouping. If you were a job combination that deviated from the norm just a little you would spend most of your time looking for groups. Some nights I would look for a group for 2 to 3 hours then log off in frustration.
Solo content gives people the ability to play and progress at their leisure.
Also, the games mentioned in the original post offer a lot of group oriented content.
It's not a question of where developers "went wrong", it's the players.
I dont like people; this is why I cant make friends in real life; this is why i play video games and also why i dont make "friends" in video games.
Infact i hate people. I express my hatred for them by pwning them in pvp and the charactor advancment systems in mmo's make it easyer to consistantly pwn people.
I resent you and your sucess and I want to smear poop in your face. This why I play multiplayer games by myself.
and no, im not being ironic, this is how i actualy feel. I make up the majoity of the people in your moronic little universe.