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Watching Raid Videos ... VG raids are primitive...
_Jord_
Member Posts: 228
Watching a video of a raid on the ancient port warehouse ...
It's like WoW's Molten Core all over again. Basically one-step-above-tank n' spank-bosses, and a lot of trash. Boss fights where everyone stands still and casts their spells...
What makes this game so "hardcore" if the end-game PvE content is vastly easier than WoW?
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Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE
Currently - Bored.
Comments
ancient port warehouse is the first and only raid so far.. and it took 1yr after release to get it. With the size of the dev team and the dropping sub numbers that are are inevitable when AoC and WAR and WotLK come out I wouldnt expect any more " sophisticated " raid content soon™
As for what makes this game "hardcore".. LOL first you have to get people to agree on the definition of hardcore.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
What I mean is this ...
I play WoW but there is a big part of me that is bored of it (been playing it on and off ... mostly on ... since it's release 3.5 years ago. It has it's ups and it's downs, like any game ... but this VG forum, and basically every other forum on MMORPG.com use it as the butt end of every joke, with the biggest criticism being that its easy.
I bought VG when it was released Jan 07. I didn't last 2 weeks - not because the game didn't have potential, but because of so many game-crushing bugs. I tried it again during the christmas free-play month and most of those bugs were gone!
However, the reason I can't really make myself get into it is that, as far as I can see, there is no real end-game. The one proper end-game raid is as easy as WoW content was 3 years ago. Many VG'ers seem to take pride in how HARD/HARDCORE their game is, yet I don't see what is hard about it at all. There is no high-end end-game PvP like WoW's arenas, and there is nothing even remotely close to the quality and difficulty of the raid content. Even Kara, the "entry-level" raid in L70 WoW, incorporates a lot more than tankin' and spankin', but tankin' and spankin' and standing still!
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Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE
Currently - Bored.
If end game raid content is your thing Vanguard isnt for you.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
As the swede said(!), what is hardcore. In my opinion I don't think the definition on a hardcore game is all about raiding 7/7. If so, I would guess that WoW really would be quite high on the list of hardcoregames.
But I leave "hardcore" for those that takes pride in "oh my god I'm level XX, you suck" sterotypes. Hmm, which makes me think that it (again) would make WoW on the top list of hardcore MMOs.
See where I am getting at?
While some things have been removed and added, for better or worse. The are note worthy difference in WoW and Vanguard that should not be mentioned as hardcore game. Not even harder, the only thing making PVE hard is that you initially don't know what to do. Molten Core was hard when it was release. After the umph time of running it, it's not hard anymore. Nor is any other content in any other game.
Hardcore would be around a definition of the gametype and feel, not really around how hard it is. Besides that wasn't the talk about core players, not hardcore players.
Anyway, I don't remember do anything different in Kara then in MC. Just using some other skills in different occassions and different positions. Same same but difference, which would be quite obvious.
There is alot of things making WoW the buttend of every joke, but the lack of raidcontent is not one of them.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Watching some video would not tell you about the difficulty of the fight. Making through only the 2nd wing in APW, I can say the strategy in taking down every boss is very different that there is no single tank 'n spank wins all solution. The complexity is comparable to EQ GoD raiding downsized to accomendate a raid size 3 times smaller.
Well i for one was sad when the BC came out because i missed out on all the old endgame raids (i had a craving to kill some dragons), the furthest i got was the 2nd core hound in MC. i really miss the old raids and i wish both blizzard (which is trying to do something) and the raid community to lay off the more casuals. i was shouted at in my old guilds for not being able to stay for 4 hours (i consider 2-3 a solid commitment to a raid). games need to take a leaf out of DnD's book, slap in some demons, dragons and undead and allow the players to crush their evil plans. BC got too fancy with its raids
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
hard-core
1: stubbornly resistant to change or improvement; "hard-core addicts"
2: intensely loyal; "his hard-core supporters"
3: extremely explicit; "hard-core pornography"
This about sums up the Vanguard playerbase.
Hardcore stemming from MMO playing in my expierence has been left to games that require you to grind nonstop to level up."Hardcore Grinding"
Anytime someone devotes as much free time possible to one thing would
deem them as " Hardcore *insert activity* "
I'm not gonna lie after grinding Swamp armor and going into the APW this is pretty much what made me realize this was a dead end game. To have tank engage a mob and have all the healers (certain ones) one finger mash a certain heal over, and over and over again while burning a mob with a gazillion hit points was just boring to me.
I remember a friend in SWG had made a mention to me one time and I have agreed on this every since. There should be more than "one" correct way to engage a raid mob if the person(s) are organized in a group. A boss mob on encounter should be dangerous based on the specials they do "not" on how much health they have.
The developers of Vanguard have not thought out the box yet and have pretty much failed with this turd of a game. Anygame where you cannot use your specials have to carry 100 sets of different resist armor or the boss mob is set up only based off "uber" raidcentric guild's feed back is not the game for me (and probably 95% of the other casual players MMO community).
Maybe at "relaunch" and another 2-3 years (when they finally put good "quality" content in the game) they will pull a Moses or Jesus (miracle).
To answer your question, there is nothing "hardcore" about this game if you have the right levels (50) and "all" have enough "TIME" you can pretty much do anything in the game (notice emphasis put on time).
What are you saying.
That if you like and play Vanguard you are a hardcore player?
Or that if one does something excessively you are hardcore?
I have in 13 months of playing Vanguard played my 5 characters for about 16 days, the main 11 days. The least played character 1½ day. I would not consider myself a hardcore player even if I like Vanguard.
But I am sure I could play Vanguard "hardcore".
I actually played WoW 1 for one year somewhere beetween 40-60days (not shure and not able to check, but I would assume it to be closer to 40 than 60). That was only doing raidinstances up to MC. Still I would not be considered a hardcore player, even the guild was a casual one.
So why was I playing WoW more than VG?
WoW in my opinion is much based on end game content. End game content that takes up 3-6h sessions every time. You simply can't join in for MC and then leave after 1h, imagine if to many people would do that to often. And enjoying and playing WoW I would not want to be left out doing nothing.
May it take longer and more mobgrinding in (some) quests in VG to level but still with outleveling in mind you will have alot of content undone for a (second) third character to run through. You will still be able to have alot of things left to be done when leveling crafting and diplomacy.
But if you want to have a 50/50/50 character in one year I can think that it requires a great deal more of "hardcore" then have a high level in WoW.
Can I say if you want to progress as fast in VG as in WoW, VG would require more hardcore playing than WoW?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
APW should be the first and the last raid in vanguard tbh.
vanguard will never really recover. VG is a world. It is my honest opinion that it should take a route towards what SWG or UO once was. It has the potential to fill this gap.
I cant see why tank'n spank is wrong. I dont raid in vanguard, but i dont want to take ballet class to raid. Actually tank'n spank is much better then running though a script over and over again. Directed by a voice in vent/TS. Raid has no future anyways.
Wow... where to start.
Having raided and participated in top tier end game content in EQ2 (2 years), FFXI (3 years), WoW (6 months *laughs*), DAoC, and now Vanguard it is my opinion that Vanguard has the most difficult raid content out of all them (especially considering this is there first raiding zone.
They have also been adding increasingly more difficult raid and quest content since the release of APW despite what a poster said earlier in this thread. Dresla the Wyvern Queen is much harder than Kotosoth (end boss in APW), and the Griffon quest is a wonderfully difficult group encounter quest line.
As for our raiding being simplistic, you are looking at videos that are pieced together over the entire fight. If you think that "running around" makes for difficult raid content then we have that for certain fights. Thank god they are not all kiting, since kiting isn't exactly difficult (sorry to let you down). As for the difficulty of tanking, healing, and the DPS'ing the bosses down before timers or abilities wipe you I would say it rates pretty good. Mob special abilities and scripts are very unique.
Some of the many things you can expect from Vanguard raid encounters:
1. Add spawns, both timed, percentage, random, and curse based.
2. Damage shields, drains, lifetaps, riposte's, immunities, beneficial incoming damage (such as healed by arcane damage etc.), varied resistances, cones (frontal, behind, side), circular aoe's (with varied ranges) both based on the mob and the players (requiring specific spacing in between raid members)
3. Stances and Enchantments which must be removed (sometimes taking multiple classes/casts)
4. Environmental spawns and effects such as blades, poison vents, traps, and plenty of obstacles and props that can and in some cases must be utilized in any successful strategy.
5. Charming, stunning, knock back, tossing (a throw over the bosses shoulder), instant death abilities, aggro loss and wipe, refresh increase, energy/endurance cost increase, casting time increase, and the ability to summon people at range.
6. Abilities and attacks that are not limited to the top of the aggro list (meaning affecting people other than the tank), such as curses that affect people above a certain level on the aggro list, or turn and slap attacks where they will attack someone else high on their aggro list then swap back to the tank.
7. A necessity to have melee in nearly every fight meaning there is no way to get around all area or cone effects by substituting other classes.
8. Important gear progression needed for all classes in order to advance in raid progression.
9. Animations, and NPC warnings that must be paid attention to in order to defeat certain content.
10. Mobs that require the completion of an event to be spawned (often in a timed manner).
Also raid makeup is very important for both proper buffs, and class make ups. Mezzing is necessary for many fights, and aoe damage for others. No two boss fights are the same, and they all require a strategy and take some time to learn (not that you can't kill something the first try, but there needs to be a recognition of many things and a strategy formed you can't just zerg something). Other than simply the trinity of healing, tanking, and damage you also have mezzing, stance removal, disenchanting, hate transfer, and effect removal that is all required and not just a nuisance not to have like in many end games.
Currently all classes are desirable end game which is something I cannot say about many games. You could argue at the top tier some classes are not wanted for certain fights, but the developers plan on balancing further to make sure everyone can participate in all end game content.
VG end game is why I play, there is no equal. Those thinking they are going to find it in future MMO's are certainly being optimistic but from the trend I have seen in MMO's lately I am not counting on another truely complex and difficult end game to come out for quite a while. Vanguard seems like the best bet to me for someone really interested in complex team work in an MMO not seen since EQ1.
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I still not raiding in VG, but have it in WoW up to SSC and VR, and can say its most boring high end content I have ever meet in my 10 years old mmo experience: instanced dungeons, no respown mobs, static groups of mobs, predefined behaviour, linear dungeons just make it pull/kill style that is not fun. As result there are just X conditions that have be done properly and raiding become a trivial - no need of thinking at all. When you calculate your gametime you realize that 90% of it goes to runing to instance, rebuffing, preparing for battle and only 10% of fun battle. Hope VG have more UO/EQ high end content feeling.
PS: Even not high end content BM was the only fun instance in WoW for me.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
You are in luck then Inzak because that is exactly what it feels like.
It isn't an EQ clone however, but has many of the same emphasis and vision that end game content had in those games.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
The only way you'll either agree/disagree with me of coures is to try it out, but that requires a pretty large time investment.
People have a lot to say about VG's endgame content, but I dont think I have EVER (from someone who has actually done it) heard it called easy.
Nice post Murugan - you wrapped it up very well.
I actually had heard it called easy. But the guy who said so wasnt even raiding himself; he had heard it from someone else.
Let me give you an example of a WoW encounter (for those claiming it's boring or simplistic):
This is an example that non-hardcores can appreciate because it is at the end of a 5-man heroic dungeon.
Kael'Thas Sunstrider:
Phase 1:
Melee attacks (on the top threat) - ok this is normal
Fireballs for ~1/3 of the tank's life - need to be intterupted or healed through
Summons a phoenix - a bird that will chase whomever aggros it. Does insane damage to anyone in melee range so has to be kited and/or killed by a ranged DPS class. Lays an egg when it dies. Group has to focus on egg to get it down or another pheonix spawns - usually a second one since the boss will summon another one by this time.
Flamestrike - an AoE attack with a 4 second cast time that will kill anyone, including the tank, instantly, if people don't away from the animation
Pyroblast - He puts a shield around himself that absorbs 10,000 damage. He begins to cast a 6 second spell that can only be interrupted after the damage shield is down. Keep in mind ranged DPS might be on a pheonix ... If the spell goes off, it will insta-kill the tank every time.
Do that until he's at 50%, then phase 2 begins:
Gravity Lapse - He throws everyone up into the air. You can float around. He summons three balls that chase you. Get hit and you die. Damage over time is dealt and must be healed through. This lasts for 45 seconds. Then you get a chance to do some damage while he regains his mana, then back up into the air.
That is just a simple 5 man dungeon. It takes skill, knowing your class, coordination
It seems to me to be a lot harder than leveling in Vanguard, or any end-game VG content. I don't see why WoW is the "easy" game.
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Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE
Currently - Bored.
I have played WoW end game, and yes it is easier.
Your example of why it is difficult is a boss that has:
A powerful spell (percentage based?) and that is interuptable
An add spawn (percentage based, timed, random I don't know you didn't specify), the add can then spawn another add if you don't kill an object that does NO damage while being burnt down?
An instant kill ability that must be prevented
A shield
Having to damage or pay attention to both adds and the main boss at the same time.
Knock back, and kiting.
Vanguard has all these aspects end game, and much much more. You are going to have to try harder than that.
Also as someone who has played end game for years (and kiting isn't exactly new, or specific to WoW) I would say that kiting is a pretty basic tactic and cheap cop out to make encounters more "difficult".
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Actually, in WoW, the "5" man dungeons were normally more of a challenge than the raids.
I'm sorry for the sarcasm, I haven't played WoW in over a year so I could be wrong. But is this the same WoW as I played that you are talking about? Is not Kael'Thas Sunstrider a boss in a 25man raid?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
The only possible case you could make for WoW are that 30 man and 25 man raids full of 12-14 year olds are harder to organize than the current 18 man raids in VG, although I would say that individual importance is much more needed in this game (one slacker will ruin your day).
But as far as boss scripts go the only other game I have played that even began to compare were certain HNM's in FFXI, or certain encounters in EQ (too much of EQ though is rushed, easy, grind content).
I hope they plan on at least allowing for 24 man raids in Vanguard (they have a group 4 but they are restricted from engaging or casting anything beneficial during the fight).
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
I'm sorry for the sarcasm, I haven't played WoW in over a year so I could be wrong. But is this the same WoW as I played that you are talking about? Is not Kael'Thas Sunstrider a boss in a 25man raid?
He's talking about the 2nd time you kill Keal'thas (5 man dungeon this time). It was patched in with the Sunwell. (Finally a new 5 man since TBC launched)
I quit WoW just before it was in, but it's suppose to be geared for people who raid. I have no idea why he's calling it simple.
VG so far is more complex than WoW in my opinion. Have 4 lv.20~ classes, and the amount of abilities you get (at the lower levels so far) is a bit daunting at first.
That is untrue at every level. WoW, EQ2, EQ1 players that currently raid in APW state that it is exceptionally well done and very diverse in terms of strategies, tactics. My guild operates in all those games and APW has drawn many of them to Vanguard. EQ2 and EQ1 are definitely tank and spank in comparison. The WoW players see some simalarities in terms of the Boss fights being more of an event than just a tank and spank.
Our guild is pretty casual and has only just completed clearing the first wing. In that wing alone there are 5 distinct Boss fights that total led to 5 post-mortems that included nearly 200 separate posts discussing strategies, tactics, group structure, etc. etc. etc. That said, we enjoy figuring it out for ourselves and do not look up strategies from raiding guilds that have long past gone through the place.
The mini-named can be a standard tank and spank, but the Raid Bosses can be incredibly complex rights. Half the fun with VG raiding comes from the raid post-mortems and trying to figure out how to defeat the encounter. And even then, the path to victory can be completely different than what another guild game up with.
You stated it much better than me. I should have read all the posts first
I can't over-emphasize how fun it is to have different paths to victory throughout APW due to the complexity of the engagements. We started as a very low DPS raid force and had to manage some of our fights (Vicus, Zaraax) as finesse fights which took incredible planning, coordination and execution to pull off. I've experienced nothing like it in any other game.
You stated it much better than me. I should have read all the posts first
I can't over-emphasize how fun it is to have different paths to victory throughout APW due to the complexity of the engagements. We started as a very low DPS raid force and had to manage some of our fights (Vicus, Zaraax) as finesse fights which took incredible planning, coordination and execution to pull off. I've experienced nothing like it in any other game.
does that mean you used well known exploits to get by the content? APW has SOO many exploits/bugs. I hear people bragging about what they ca do that they should be able to do..
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze