You can say whatever you want to defend WoW, here is why it is successful... 1.) Kids can compete with adults. WOW REQUIRES ZERO SKILL OR THINKING. 2.) CPU specs are low. That's why. The game is built for a child to navigate, women can get into it as well.
was interested in what this thread had to say, and then i hit this statement..... agist, is one thing, but then someone threw out the sexism card too... wow. the last guild i was in half dozen of the most competenet raiders 'which wasn't more than a dozen people' were guys spouses' including mine. There is no correlation between zero skill and women can get into it too... sorry to disappoint.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
My point was that ON AVERAGE MORE MEN/BOYS PLAY VIDEO GAMES THAN WOMEN/GIRLS.
Do I need to use crayons and draw stick figures to illustrate this point? I know WoW requires no reading, but come on...
So if MORE men play video games than women, it stands to reason that a company who advertisess and develops a game that has EASY ENTRY CURVES for women, that is, doesn't intimidate those who really haven't gamed much before, like WoW has, that a nice market of untapped subscribers awaits.
That is not sexist, that is marketing strategy.
If for every 10 males say there is 1 female MMO player, just think of how well a game could do if they tapped the subscriber base to a 10/3 or 10/4 ratio.
There for 1 million male subscribers you could have 300,000 female subscribers, instead of say 100,000 female subscribers.
You can say whatever you want to defend WoW, here is why it is successful... 1.) Kids can compete with adults. WOW REQUIRES ZERO SKILL OR THINKING. 2.) CPU specs are low. That's why. The game is built for a child to navigate, women can get into it as well. It's like the Super Mario Brothers of the MMO world. It reaches ALL genre of people. it just has an enormous customerbase to pull from. My friends 10 year old was getting addicted to it so he grounded him from it. The 10 year old had several toons with elite levels... Personally, I want to play a game with adults, not kids. WoW isn't for me. However, WoW clearly is for 10 million other people. Children, women, Asian subscribers, and first time MMO players can easily get into this game. That is why it is so successful. Plus, Blizzard provides quality content and a very dumbed-down level.
I find the comment about women amazingly offensive, I'm not a raging feminist or anything but women -can- play a game that is not horrendously dumbed down too. It is more accurate to say first time gamers regardless of age, race or sex will have an easy time in WoW. A large number of children and women play plenty enough games to know what they are doing in something a litle more complicated.
For the record also I did try the WoW trial along with LoTR and EQ2 and of the three I put my money on EQ2 although even that did not keep my interest very long. Despite the fact they are not strictly massively multiplayer, I found guildwars and DDO to be the most enjoyable of more recent games, I think DDO could have beat it all for me if it was not so damn repetative, adopting instead a more Diablo 2 way of completing the quests. It was the endless repeating of the same quest in order to be high enough level to continue, that's what killed it for me.
I'll be hoping the best of AoC too but if not I'll just be keeping an eye on the beta for Stargate Worlds.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying...
Of course women can play games that require thinking, probably more-so than men. I knew many female players in Pre-CU SWG who were powerful crafters and high level entertainers and tailors. Pre-CU SWG had a lot of female players actually.
However, they were mostly Star Wars fans. Women, typically, don't play hardcore video games. They just didn't grow up (for the most part) playing computer games... So Blizzard was VERY smart when they made their game equally attractive for women, who traditionally wouldn't play Blizzard's games.
There are a some very cool women out there who play video games like a lot of us guys do, but for the most part (like my wife) they don't seem to be interested in games. Now, if someone were to market to them that would mean a potentially massive customerbase. Blizzard seems to have had some success doing just that.
That was my point.
Just move off of the woman subject before someone like shae gets a hold of you....
As far as your pretty strong dislike for WoW, well each to his own. It has the misfortune of being overly successful, thats about all its guilty of.
Yes, its base and not very challenging but thats all old ground. It keeps many more people interested in MMOs then any other game ever did. Thats what counts. Given the endless parade of trash MMOs released over the last 4 years its a wonder anyone even invest in these games anymore.
The core of much of the WoW dislike from MMO players I suspect is that WoW changed how devs make their games. So much that many of them even altered existing games like SWG and that caused a lot of resentment. Either way, like it or not WoW changed the course of the genre for better or worse.
IMHO, GW had an equal if not more influential impact on MMO design, devs discovered that players will tolerate massive instanced, linear, restricted, compartmentalized, lobby based games instead of virtual worlds....GW gets a lot less attention then WoW but had just a strong impact if not more so.
Torak,
I don't dislike WoW, in fact, I give Blizzard props every time this topic comes up. They have done a great job of making a lot of money on a game that is no better than most on the market. Developers have been trying to steal that secret recipe now for years... What is that recipe for Blizzard's success?
1.) They used their OWN IP. I've been playing Warcraft since the 1990's as an RTS, as have millions of other people. They can write their own stories, add their own content, and only Blizzard has a say in what happens to their game.
2.) They made the system requirements minimal to run the game, therefore allowing more people easy access to their game.
3.) They provide a quality product. I don't like levels/classes, but I did play WoW for 3 months or so and actually enjoyed a lot of the time I spent there. It wore out qickly for me but the game has minimal bugs, has enough quests content to keep players busy, and offers a quality experience for the customers.
4.) The game is easy. It's simple. You put in your disc, you log on, and you play. It requires no skill, no deep thought, no wasted time analyzing. The game provides a path for you to follow. This allows casual gamers and children to equally participate in the online world.
5.) Blizzard keeps coming out with expansions. They keep updating their content.
Compaines like SOE who offer poor quality in their games will never achieve WoW status because of how they operate.
1.) WOW is playable by EVERY computer. You might say you dont like the comic style, it isnt my thing either. But currently LOTRO has proven that even with low polygon counts you can create VERY beautiful game worlds due to todays standarts and STILL make a MMO relatively broad accessible. Its just very difficult when a game like once EQ2 or later Vanguard only runs *somewhat* on high end machines at launch. And as I said, you CAN make beautiful landscapes with less demand, see LOTRO landscapes.
QFT.
This is why consoles have a bigger market, average customer doesn't want to upgrade for financial reasons. Vanguard, EQ2, TR, and now AoC all suffer the same fate.
Turbine and Blizzard did an excellent job with LotRO and system performance, now only if others could do the same.
Lets start to take down some myths about WOW. - WOW was so bug-free and complete
We hear that myth often. Sure, it wasnt bug ridden like Vanguard, but the truth is, it was FAR from bug free. When I spoke to friends who were in since the first days, and compared it to the first days of EQ2 we didnt find such a big difference. Sure, WOW caught up with most bug soon enough, but other MMOs did that as well. Like all MMOs, many features, especially central one like the skill tree came MUCH later and were NOT in the game at launch! Other features they spoke about, like housing, never ever entered the game.
Much as I hate to pick one small thing from your otherwise very good post, I just can't let it go. Who in the world told you that the Skill Tree was NOT in at launch? That's complete lunacy as it was actually in the beta that I played and in the copy I bought from the stores on day 1. And housing is not in because the developers don't think that housing is a big deal in an MMO. I know, heresy you say, well personally I think you have to cut Blizzard a little slack on this one. It's not possible that maybe, just maybe they're right? So what features were actually missing at release that you're talking about?
The PvP aspects of the game were clearly not well defined from the beginning, but they've been constantly adding features to it since the beginning and many feel that the open world PvP encountered in WoW from the beginning was actually the best. Much as people like to bash it for it's PvP, WoW has a loyal following of PvP'ers. When it goes head to head with Warhammer later this year or perhaps next year, we'll see where the chips fall on that one.
Some others have complained about the end-game content or lack thereof in the beginning, but there were 2 large raid encounters (Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair) and another 3 smaller raid encounters (Blackrock Spire, Scholomance and Stratholme) at release. Another small raid encounter (Dire Maul) was added a few months later along with a couple of World raid encounters(Azuregos, Lord Kazzak). That's a pretty fair amount of end-game content if you ask me. Not all of it was there at release, but it was there by the time most people actually made it to max level, so there's not really much difference.
Sorry, but I can't agree with your premise WoW was missing a lot of key features at release. It was very polished and I can't remember a single review that mentioned missing key elements of gameplay. I think the people you are in beta with have a little revisionist history of WoW. I'll cut you a little slack since you only played for 2 months, but some of us who have been playing since beta know better.
As far as bugs go, well everyone has their opinion. Certainly there were some bugs. How many relative to other games at release is something that is extremely difficult to quantify. I think the big thing is looking at not just how many bugs there were or weren't, but how many things worked correctly as opposed to things that didn't. I think if you look at in that context, then WoW has a step up on just about all the competition. Blizzard got the vast majority of things right at release.
While no game is "bug-free and complete", WOW is darn near those goals.
- WOW is easy and carebearish
WOW is easy and carebearish. The spouses and children of non-gamers easily hit level 70. Heck, you can solo to 70.
- WOW is for kids only
If you judge WOW by its cartoonish art style and Reader's Digest humor, then yes, it appears to be targeted to kids.
So then, what DID World of Warcraft make so succesful? Well, its five simple things, no real mystery here.
1.) WOW is playable by EVERY computer.
True, 1999-2000 era graphics work very well on 2004+ timeline computers.
2.) WOW has wiped out all non-fun elements
WOW has wiped out many (but not all) of the painful elements, some of which were great fun despite how folks complained. For example, death penalties and corpse runs may have been a hassle, but they created an element of fear that went with taking risks and going into dungeons; those dungeons suddenly became very scary. WOW still has a very extremely non-fun element and that is every time you roll a new character, you are compelled to re-run the same general quest path and zones. Effectively, each new character is a replaying of the last character, with only class and race differentiation. UNFUN!
3.) WOW offers something for all ranges of difficulty
WOW is easy, very clean, and very simple, and that's really the key to 90% of its success. On a similar topic, do you know what the all-time selling boardgame is? It's "Sorry". Yes, "Sorry" is about the sorriest, most abstract worthless game every designed, yet it has a cute title, is simple to play, and is the one Aunt Judy grabs off the shelf for Little Johnny's birthday present. WOW has a lot in common with "Sorry".
4.) WOW always has a new, higher toy to fight for
Yes, WOW has content. We agree on something. However, the new toys are pretty easy to acquire if you are a social player and can get a group together. Easy wins feel like "gimme's" and no WOW epic toy will every feel as cool as the epics in early Everquest, for example. You had to work for the latter and not everyone was willing to put in the effort. Therefore the "new, higher toy" was always more coveted.
5.) The WOW world is easy to get into
True. Racial starting cities are a great idea and should be done almost every fantasy world. The simple WOW mechanics tooltips made this an easy game to get into. But, I hesistate in calling WOW a "world"; feels more like an RPG to me. I do not think of Azeroth as a teeming world, but more of an amusement park on tracks.
Wow is EZMODE? Ok if you insist I can already tell from most of your replies a LARGE majority of you have never raided end game instances before.
There is also a VERY VERY good reason why most server have only 1 - 2 end game guilds that has end game dungeons on farm status. GO FIGURE.
If wow is easy mode, why do people have to read up on raid bosses before they even attempt to try them?
Why does wow have such a large database for game mechanics alone?
Why are addons necessary if the game is so easy? Addons just prove how hard a game is. Without these addons, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to attempt to down any raid bosses at all. Nobody would know how much threat they are generating, or who has debuffs that need immediate dispelling? Or when the bosses will use their deadly raid wipping skill. Addons only make the game slightly easier, ultimately it comes down to player reaction, the ability to multi task and co-ordination.
Those who call wow ezmode, are probably the pitiful soulds who are still doing their 5 man instances. Just remmeber one thing, 5 man instance are NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared to 25 man.
I think it's because there is a lack of class diversity. meaning any class has CC. Any class has debuffs.
You can kill mobs %120 your level pretty easy..
12 year olds can play it... and do good.The epic 12-year-olds can not concentrate and be not good.. but still do well
Blizzard caters to their members with no morals. Botting isn't too hard in WoW.. check Ebay...
I don't like it because the playerbase sucks, It takes a few weeks to hit highest level, farming is simplistic and quick, they base there game around the "casual" gamers...
I am getting a bit tired of all the gaming world saying that WoW has 10 million people that's the end of it no more for us.(Besides how many of those 10 million are Chinese? They pay far less than Westerners.). There are 6 billion people in this world.
Yes it is true that a large proportion of them may be starving and an even larger proportion of them do not have electricity or a television let alone a pc but come on !
Don't you think that if the gaming companies got off their bums and tried a little harder they might just well seduce another 10 million people out of that 6 billion into playing a game, and yes even paying for it? So what if Blizzard did their psychology homework and lured in a few school kids and some disgruntled dads.
The dads will get a feel for it and decide they want something bigger and better. The kids will get bigger and start getting bigger computers. The world moves on. It is up to the other companies to be there to catch them when they fall from the trap. It'll happen.
Let WoW seduce all the people into online gaming and just be sure that you have the right net afterwards. People get bored with Wow sooner or later, it's inevitable and I am sure they are aware of it. They are pumping out their updates a lot faster than they used to. They are filled with bugs, they are slipping.
PS..... Yes this is my first post, and yes I am only a new member to the forum but, I have been reading it for a long time. I have been playing games a long time and I have been seeing these "heated conversations" a long time. So, before anyone pipes up and states the obvious I feel I shall first.
I feel it's time people started looking at this old story in a new way, it really is getting tiresome.
I shall now hop off my cardboard box and hide back in the shadows again. Thank you for listening.
Not a wow basher here, but if you don't find WoW to be completely carebareish then you have NO F***ING CLUE what real pvp is.
No MMO will ever be able to offer "REAL" PvP. Simply due to the fact that MMOs are ground in a level(or skills) system and equipment. No two people will ever have the exact same level/skills and equipment. Therefore it will never truly be a "fair" fight. If you want real PvP then I suggest you return to the FPS genre where "skill" is based on computer specs, internet connectivity and whomever can jump up and down more times in a given time period.
"Carebear" in it's truest sense is not shoddy PvP but a complete lack thereof. Carebears don't fight. Ever.
Originally posted by Maligar Originally posted by Zerocyde Not a wow basher here, but if you don't find WoW to be completely carebareish then you have NO F***ING CLUE what real pvp is.
No MMO will ever be able to offer "REAL" PvP. Simply due to the fact that MMOs are ground in a level(or skills) system and equipment. No two people will ever have the exact same level/skills and equipment. Therefore it will never truly be a "fair" fight. If you want real PvP then I suggest you return to the FPS genre where "skill" is based on computer specs, internet connectivity and whomever can jump up and down more times in a given time period. "Carebear" in it's truest sense is not shoddy PvP but a complete lack thereof. Carebears don't fight. Ever.
when he says carebear pvp he means that there is no loss in dieing in pvp, unlike other games where you lose XP or drop items in your bag, or possibly drop equipped items. that therefore increases the value of pvp.
We hear that myth often. Sure, it wasnt bug ridden like Vanguard, but the truth is, it was FAR from bug free. When I spoke to friends who were in since the first days, and compared it to the first days of EQ2 we didnt find such a big difference. Sure, WOW caught up with most bug soon enough, but other MMOs did that as well. Like all MMOs, many features, especially central one like the skill tree came MUCH later and were NOT in the game at launch! Other features they spoke about, like housing, never ever entered the game.
Hmmm... no it wasn't bug free... but it was quite complete ! In all honesty, in the past year or so we've seen a large number of MMOs released with pieces missing (crafting in Tabula Rasa, and LOTRO for instance).
While WOW was not 100% complete, they had just about everything you needed in game for the first 40 levels or so from day 1. They were smart: they waited till it was 'done', or, at least, till the missing parts were for the high end of the game, which was going to take everyone some time to get to.
Anyway, I agree with the sentiment of the OP: WOW revolutionized the genre 9without even revolutionizing its formula, just by aiming for a high high quality in all of its aspects); WOW is not perfect, and yet we shouldn't expect a WOW Killer to show up anytime soon.
After all, it would sure take a lot for 10 million players that have spent thousand of hours on their WOW PCs to switch over, no ?
The OP didn't need to go through the trouble listing all of the aspects on why it was successful, he could've easily summed it up in one word. EZmode.
I'm calling BS on this one. If WoW's success was because it's EZmode then why has LOTRO hasn't had any where near as much success. Its just as easy or easier to play than WoW. It even has a more forgiving death penality and the quest log spells out exactly what you need to do to for the next step of the quest. It might a few more fellowship (group) quests but the game is not more difficult than WoW.
I'll throw in EQ2 in there as well. Played to level 33 or so before I got bored. Wasn't too difficult. I played a late beta of EQ2 the game is not as hard now (death penalities and linked mobs and such).
WoW does offer a challenge for the players who want it but at the same time is very enjoyable for the casual player also. This is just ONE of the secrets of its success.
If the secret to making a blockbuster MMORPG for it only to have a so called EZmode don't you think another game company would figure out that formula? But I guess your thoughts on game successes can be summed up in just one word.
The 1 and only thing that make WOW #1 is that its a very great looking game for low end computers so pretty much everyone can get into it all the other games out there lotro eq2 vanguard etc etc takes some good rigs too be able too play flawlessly.warhammer seems too be aiming at the same with warcraft has been aiming for low end reqs so anyone will most likly be able too play wow and war are gonna be some good contender for that.
I'm not in position to have it experienced myself, but I heard it
Why the hell do people that haven't even played a game feel qualified to comment on it????
Well, I've never played Professional Football (US) yet I can offer you quite a few comments about it based on what I've read an observed. Video games are similar you know.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
HAHAHA here we go with the wow bashing. What happened to the so called next gen mmos that were going to totally destroy wow? By all accounts Aoc is another Vanguard waiting to happen. It was hyped as the next big pvp game LMAO. So much for the promises.
Looks like we have to wait for another game with the crazy hype again rofl. FUNNY HOW ALL THE aOC FANBOIS are starting wow bashing threads all over again to deflect from the Aoc failure, wow has nothing to do with Failcoms inept abilites and broken promises. Infact you should start threads on demistyfyming Failcoms lies and overhype.
it hasnt even released yet you stupid ass hole
also im not an aoc fanboy (im a darkfall fanboy) but still you have no idea how buggy the real servers will be its people like you that make fake review to make AoC go down the toilet.
- WOW was so bug-free and complete Thats not true. It is today very stable. But so are most other MMOs that still run. Even Vanguard is very stable now, even if the polish there seems to be not finished yet; for example, they currently fight against hitching. - WOW is easy and carebearish Thats true. OK I'm not in position to have it experienced myself, but I heard it from every being that has played WoW. Of course PvP is harder. But thats because you fight against humans. Thats not unique to WoW. And WoW raids arent better than raids in other games, for all I know. Quite on the contrary. - WOW is for kids only Its not for kids only - but it CAN BE PLAYED BY KIDS. Something thats much harder in other games. - WOW is playable by EVERY computer Thats true. - WOW has wiped out all non-fun elements Ok now thats very subjective. Again, I havent played the game myself, but from what I've heard, WoW contains faction grinds like any other MMO out there, and it contains an endless raiding endgame. - WOW offers something for all ranges of difficulty Nope. Definitely not. Thats a major complaint about the game. - WOW always has a new, higher toy to fight for Errm... I guess so. Because all MMOs have that - no ? But in fact, WOW doesnt deliver that much new - I heard they still have no housing, for example. So its all down to new dungeons and stuff again. - The WOW world is easy to get into Maybe. More importantly, it is beginner friendly, for all I heard about it.
How do you comment on a game you obviously never played???
Wow Doesn't have a fan base full of kids. You HAVE NO PROOF of this.
I would like to know what is wrong with kids? You make the word "kids" seem like it is some sort of disguisting deadly plauge that should be avoided.
Are you one of those "kid" haters, who hate "kids" for the sake of hating kids? Its not very intelligent to follow a trend you know? Maybe you should get a brain of your own and stop following this 'trend".
Kids can be matured too. You shouldn't sterotype them.
Alot of us played wow cause we grew old along with the Warcraft series. We were there when blizzard released the first warcraft . We HAD fun. We played warcraft thinking it was just another award winning "stragety" game but as we progressed through the campaigns, we were also intrigued by the lores surrounding the game. This is why wow has a huge fan base. WE GREW ALONG WITH IT
Yes. There is a lot of content for people who want easy, relaxing content. You know, casual players? A whole group of perfectly nice people who have as much fun playing WoW as anyone.
However, there is also the high end L70 stuff that matches or exceeds the difficulty of anything else on the market. WoW's bleeding edge top end raids can't be touched by anything in Vanguard. WoW's high end arena, say 2000+, is more dynamic, skill driven and competitive than just about any other MMO out there (DaoC might rival it). VG and EQ2 are slower in pace and shallower in complexity.
Sorry guys but WoW really wins for both casuals AND hard core players.
It just won't provide fun for you if your idea of fun is anything that takes a long time, involves a lot of repetition, and that makes you feel better because most casuals could never do what you just did! (unless of course they suddenly had as much free time and patience as you).
Going to close this by saying something for the 10,000th time:
TIME SINK =/= DIFFICULTY
------ Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE Currently - Bored.
Ok, this is strictly my opinion.... As an avid gamer of many MMO's and a player of WoW, I have come down to finding it mildly boring. But in its defense I will say these things.
I have played WoW, I have a 70 end-game Prot-Paladin, 70 end-game Resto-Shaman and many more. WoW does take team work, concentration and a high amount of skill and coordination to raid at high end. Being an AoE tank, I have found that while I am pounding on the three mobs in front of me to maintain threat, I have to constantly pan my screen to watch the rest of the raid. in case of aggro from re-pops are avoided mobs from someone stepping 2 steps to far to the left and grabbing an extra pack. Everyone, and I repeat, everyone top end, is required to be on top of their game to succeed. Take for instance, we went into Molten Core, with 10 level 70's and 10 others ranging from 61-69. Mind you, this is only a "EZmode", as another poster put it, raiding instance. And considering we are rated from 1-10 levels higher than what we are facing, this should have been a walkthrough. However, 3 hours later, we had managed to down one boss and wipe enough times that all of our gear was destroyed. Mind you, this same crew of 10 level 70's can clean sweep Kara effortlessly. The content is designed to be appealing, and remain as challenging as possble while maintaining a user friendly environment and an atmosphere of accomplishment even on a failed attempt.
PvP I will admit, needs a lot of work, however, that is only to continue to appeal to the hard-core PvPers (like myself) who enjoy the challenge of facing a non-AI'd creature. It is, however, a very balanced system in terms of classes and skills. When done correctly, with a team, as all of the battlegrounds are designed to be, it can be a very rewarding system. Again, as a Prot-Paladin, a few of my guildies and I made a guild only 10 man for a Warsong Gulch (capture the flag for those who don't know). i was designated as the falg carrier, due to wearing platemail and havign a massive defense. I run in, grab the flag and run out. In one situation, I found myself being attacked and chased by a rogue. I very well built one at that. However, his damage to me was miniscule. Now some will complain that Prot is to over powered because they are so hard to damage, however, the twist is, my DPS output is that of a level 30 at best. So my chances of killing him before he eventually kills me is slim to none. I didn't die however, for one reason only. I had two healers focused on me, while our DPS focused on him. We won the game, not becasue its easy or weak, but because of a bad choice on that player, and those he was with. They failed to work as a team, and he failed to take out my invulnerability. The healers. For the casual gamer, one can log on, do some quick PvP to earn some honor, as it is awarded whether you win or lose, just different amounts, grab a piece of gear every few hours of gameplay and feel as if they are progressing. That is another quality of WoW that few other MMO's have accomplished.
As for kids playing WoW. The game simply appeals to the senses for the younger generations. Though they seem cartoony to some (me included) they still have a glimmer in their own right. However, to make another point, each person should be judged by their own actions and sterotypes should be discarded. And before it even begins, no this isn't some self-righteous way of living, when it comes to gaming, I had it not-so-literally shoved in my face one day while playing DDO. I too was under the assumption that kids shouldnt play online games due to inabilities is understanding and other areas. Then I find myself in a group with a warforged Fighter/Wizard. It was a full party and we clearing a level 10 instance on Elite (back when 10 was the cap) and all using in game voice. The fighter, however, had not spoken once since he joined the party. I assumed it was due to concentration of maintaining all the threat, which mind you, he was doing a stunning job of. Skills were being executed perfectly, with impeccable timing and accuracy. Come to find out, when he started to speak near the end of the instance, it was a 7 year old boy who was playing the game with his dad, seated across the room at a seperate computer. His dad was a Sorc, and only played because his son asked him too, and found he liked the game. I found myself in this situation once again, later in WoW, while doing a Kara run with a new recruit Holy Priest. Who later on we found to be a 9 year old girl who joined because her older brother played. She too was also very stellar and one of the best healers I ever ran with.
My point is, WoW has its very strong points, and though it has some weak ones, they are simply to miniscule to be a bother, and are still fixed at the earliest possible time. Which keeps the game running smooth, user friendly and appealing to all ages, genders and game types. If it continues as is, and keeps its player base happy with updates and expansions, it will be a game that will be played by many for a long time.
I apologize for the long post, and hope that clears up some issues with not only the game, be the de-railing of issues arising with "types of players", but then again, I am just one man with many experiances to speak of.
"The best will have the best fans along with the best haters."
World of Warcraft has the most to offer in an MMORPG like the biggest library of Add-Ons, custom interfaces, binding as many buttons as you want to any key, building twinks, battlegrounds, pvp for gear, pve for gear, small scale dungeons, large scale dungeons, more quests than you can imagine, daily quests for gold and goodies, so many ways to build up your character (from spec to gear), the funniest and most annoying trade chat, the best Auction House system of any game, the best mailing system of any game (CoD FTW), you can see how any gear looks on your character with a simple click on a chat link or item (in a store, inventory or auction house), many different kinds of mounts for faster travel on land or air, the most in-depth and beneficial professions of any MMORPG, continual game patches to fix bugs and add new content to the game, fast Game Master responses, you can move around or jump around and still attack, pvp that involves MOVING AROUND (very rare in MMORPGs nowadayz), play on a server of your choice out of PvP/PvE/RP, play on a test realm with uber gear, an official forums where you use your in-game characters as an avatar, participate in special events and holidays full of fun toys (Beerfest FTW), you can even order a real life figurine of any of your characters, the best fan videos ever (machinima), and fat ugly orcs being on the same side as hot sexy blood elf chicks. Thus holds the Guiness Book of World Records: Videogames Most Subscribers in an MMORPG Record.
*cough* eh-hem...I'm a proud retiree of WoW (Sep07-Mar08). I played it for 6 months (all epic :P lvl 70 Tauren Warrior, part vengeful, part merc). Had to quit because of college (ITT Tech, Game Design) and girlfriend (love that booty), but I loved every minute of my time spent on it.
P.S. - Yes, I quoted myself. And guess what?...I'll do it again, and again, and again just to SHOVE IT IN THE HATERS' FACES! .../flex (flaming topic, so I FLAME, I FLAME, I FLAME!)
Currently Playing: 3ds Max 2009 Played and Loved: World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Warhammer Online Best F2P MMO: Requiem Bloodymare Want to Play: Aion (See Teaser), DCuniverseOnline (awesome gameplay videos)
CCP (creators of EVE Online) has proven that you can do a real PVP MMO (AoC, WAR, WoW etc. arent PVP at all) building on UO's (the founders of CCP played UO) true PVP system.
If you die in a mmo and there's no real loss, it's not real PVP.
What CCP perfected is the expanded crafting system and using crafted item as the base of 'good gear' so to speak - and when you die nothing is 'soulbound' = you can loot your targets 'corpse'. This makes crafting a central part of the games economy and suddenly you can 'PVP' in crafting and economy as well.
CCP are now developing a first person MMO based upon Whitewold's Vampires universe. Taking all they learnt in EVE, and putting it to use to make a true first person PVP MMO.
Let's hope Iceland doesn't go bankrupt before it's launched
Comments
was interested in what this thread had to say, and then i hit this statement..... agist, is one thing, but then someone threw out the sexism card too... wow. the last guild i was in half dozen of the most competenet raiders 'which wasn't more than a dozen people' were guys spouses' including mine. There is no correlation between zero skill and women can get into it too... sorry to disappoint.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
Geez some people fail to grasp things...
WOMEN CAN BE JUST AS GOOD AT VIDEO GAMES AS MEN!
My point was that ON AVERAGE MORE MEN/BOYS PLAY VIDEO GAMES THAN WOMEN/GIRLS.
Do I need to use crayons and draw stick figures to illustrate this point? I know WoW requires no reading, but come on...
So if MORE men play video games than women, it stands to reason that a company who advertisess and develops a game that has EASY ENTRY CURVES for women, that is, doesn't intimidate those who really haven't gamed much before, like WoW has, that a nice market of untapped subscribers awaits.
That is not sexist, that is marketing strategy.
If for every 10 males say there is 1 female MMO player, just think of how well a game could do if they tapped the subscriber base to a 10/3 or 10/4 ratio.
There for 1 million male subscribers you could have 300,000 female subscribers, instead of say 100,000 female subscribers.
Tecmo Bowl.
For the record also I did try the WoW trial along with LoTR and EQ2 and of the three I put my money on EQ2 although even that did not keep my interest very long. Despite the fact they are not strictly massively multiplayer, I found guildwars and DDO to be the most enjoyable of more recent games, I think DDO could have beat it all for me if it was not so damn repetative, adopting instead a more Diablo 2 way of completing the quests. It was the endless repeating of the same quest in order to be high enough level to continue, that's what killed it for me.
I'll be hoping the best of AoC too but if not I'll just be keeping an eye on the beta for Stargate Worlds.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying...
Of course women can play games that require thinking, probably more-so than men. I knew many female players in Pre-CU SWG who were powerful crafters and high level entertainers and tailors. Pre-CU SWG had a lot of female players actually.
However, they were mostly Star Wars fans. Women, typically, don't play hardcore video games. They just didn't grow up (for the most part) playing computer games... So Blizzard was VERY smart when they made their game equally attractive for women, who traditionally wouldn't play Blizzard's games.
There are a some very cool women out there who play video games like a lot of us guys do, but for the most part (like my wife) they don't seem to be interested in games. Now, if someone were to market to them that would mean a potentially massive customerbase. Blizzard seems to have had some success doing just that.
That was my point.
Just move off of the woman subject before someone like shae gets a hold of you....
As far as your pretty strong dislike for WoW, well each to his own. It has the misfortune of being overly successful, thats about all its guilty of.
Yes, its base and not very challenging but thats all old ground. It keeps many more people interested in MMOs then any other game ever did. Thats what counts. Given the endless parade of trash MMOs released over the last 4 years its a wonder anyone even invest in these games anymore.
The core of much of the WoW dislike from MMO players I suspect is that WoW changed how devs make their games. So much that many of them even altered existing games like SWG and that caused a lot of resentment. Either way, like it or not WoW changed the course of the genre for better or worse.
IMHO, GW had an equal if not more influential impact on MMO design, devs discovered that players will tolerate massive instanced, linear, restricted, compartmentalized, lobby based games instead of virtual worlds....GW gets a lot less attention then WoW but had just a strong impact if not more so.
Torak,
I don't dislike WoW, in fact, I give Blizzard props every time this topic comes up. They have done a great job of making a lot of money on a game that is no better than most on the market. Developers have been trying to steal that secret recipe now for years... What is that recipe for Blizzard's success?
1.) They used their OWN IP. I've been playing Warcraft since the 1990's as an RTS, as have millions of other people. They can write their own stories, add their own content, and only Blizzard has a say in what happens to their game.
2.) They made the system requirements minimal to run the game, therefore allowing more people easy access to their game.
3.) They provide a quality product. I don't like levels/classes, but I did play WoW for 3 months or so and actually enjoyed a lot of the time I spent there. It wore out qickly for me but the game has minimal bugs, has enough quests content to keep players busy, and offers a quality experience for the customers.
4.) The game is easy. It's simple. You put in your disc, you log on, and you play. It requires no skill, no deep thought, no wasted time analyzing. The game provides a path for you to follow. This allows casual gamers and children to equally participate in the online world.
5.) Blizzard keeps coming out with expansions. They keep updating their content.
Compaines like SOE who offer poor quality in their games will never achieve WoW status because of how they operate.
Tecmo Bowl.
QFT.
This is why consoles have a bigger market, average customer doesn't want to upgrade for financial reasons. Vanguard, EQ2, TR, and now AoC all suffer the same fate.
Turbine and Blizzard did an excellent job with LotRO and system performance, now only if others could do the same.
Why the hell do people that haven't even played a game feel qualified to comment on it????
Much as I hate to pick one small thing from your otherwise very good post, I just can't let it go. Who in the world told you that the Skill Tree was NOT in at launch? That's complete lunacy as it was actually in the beta that I played and in the copy I bought from the stores on day 1. And housing is not in because the developers don't think that housing is a big deal in an MMO. I know, heresy you say, well personally I think you have to cut Blizzard a little slack on this one. It's not possible that maybe, just maybe they're right? So what features were actually missing at release that you're talking about?
The PvP aspects of the game were clearly not well defined from the beginning, but they've been constantly adding features to it since the beginning and many feel that the open world PvP encountered in WoW from the beginning was actually the best. Much as people like to bash it for it's PvP, WoW has a loyal following of PvP'ers. When it goes head to head with Warhammer later this year or perhaps next year, we'll see where the chips fall on that one.
Some others have complained about the end-game content or lack thereof in the beginning, but there were 2 large raid encounters (Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair) and another 3 smaller raid encounters (Blackrock Spire, Scholomance and Stratholme) at release. Another small raid encounter (Dire Maul) was added a few months later along with a couple of World raid encounters(Azuregos, Lord Kazzak). That's a pretty fair amount of end-game content if you ask me. Not all of it was there at release, but it was there by the time most people actually made it to max level, so there's not really much difference.
Sorry, but I can't agree with your premise WoW was missing a lot of key features at release. It was very polished and I can't remember a single review that mentioned missing key elements of gameplay. I think the people you are in beta with have a little revisionist history of WoW. I'll cut you a little slack since you only played for 2 months, but some of us who have been playing since beta know better.
As far as bugs go, well everyone has their opinion. Certainly there were some bugs. How many relative to other games at release is something that is extremely difficult to quantify. I think the big thing is looking at not just how many bugs there were or weren't, but how many things worked correctly as opposed to things that didn't. I think if you look at in that context, then WoW has a step up on just about all the competition. Blizzard got the vast majority of things right at release.
Lets start to take down some myths about WOW.
- WOW was so bug-free and complete
While no game is "bug-free and complete", WOW is darn near those goals.
- WOW is easy and carebearish
WOW is easy and carebearish. The spouses and children of non-gamers easily hit level 70. Heck, you can solo to 70.
- WOW is for kids only
If you judge WOW by its cartoonish art style and Reader's Digest humor, then yes, it appears to be targeted to kids.
So then, what DID World of Warcraft make so succesful? Well, its five simple things, no real mystery here.
1.) WOW is playable by EVERY computer.
True, 1999-2000 era graphics work very well on 2004+ timeline computers.
2.) WOW has wiped out all non-fun elements
WOW has wiped out many (but not all) of the painful elements, some of which were great fun despite how folks complained. For example, death penalties and corpse runs may have been a hassle, but they created an element of fear that went with taking risks and going into dungeons; those dungeons suddenly became very scary. WOW still has a very extremely non-fun element and that is every time you roll a new character, you are compelled to re-run the same general quest path and zones. Effectively, each new character is a replaying of the last character, with only class and race differentiation. UNFUN!
3.) WOW offers something for all ranges of difficulty
WOW is easy, very clean, and very simple, and that's really the key to 90% of its success. On a similar topic, do you know what the all-time selling boardgame is? It's "Sorry". Yes, "Sorry" is about the sorriest, most abstract worthless game every designed, yet it has a cute title, is simple to play, and is the one Aunt Judy grabs off the shelf for Little Johnny's birthday present. WOW has a lot in common with "Sorry".
4.) WOW always has a new, higher toy to fight for
Yes, WOW has content. We agree on something. However, the new toys are pretty easy to acquire if you are a social player and can get a group together. Easy wins feel like "gimme's" and no WOW epic toy will every feel as cool as the epics in early Everquest, for example. You had to work for the latter and not everyone was willing to put in the effort. Therefore the "new, higher toy" was always more coveted.
5.) The WOW world is easy to get into
True. Racial starting cities are a great idea and should be done almost every fantasy world. The simple WOW mechanics tooltips made this an easy game to get into. But, I hesistate in calling WOW a "world"; feels more like an RPG to me. I do not think of Azeroth as a teeming world, but more of an amusement park on tracks.
The OP didn't need to go through the trouble listing all of the aspects on why it was successful, he could've easily summed it up in one word. EZmode.
Wow is EZMODE? Ok if you insist
I can already tell from most of your replies a LARGE majority of you have never raided end game instances before.
There is also a VERY VERY good reason why most server have only 1 - 2 end game guilds that has end game dungeons on farm status. GO FIGURE.
If wow is easy mode, why do people have to read up on raid bosses before they even attempt to try them?
Why does wow have such a large database for game mechanics alone?
Why are addons necessary if the game is so easy? Addons just prove how hard a game is. Without these addons, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to attempt to down any raid bosses at all. Nobody would know how much threat they are generating, or who has debuffs that need immediate dispelling? Or when the bosses will use their deadly raid wipping skill. Addons only make the game slightly easier, ultimately it comes down to player reaction, the ability to multi task and co-ordination.
Those who call wow ezmode, are probably the pitiful soulds who are still doing their 5 man instances. Just remmeber one thing, 5 man instance are NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared to 25 man.
I think it's because there is a lack of class diversity. meaning any class has CC. Any class has debuffs.
You can kill mobs %120 your level pretty easy..
12 year olds can play it... and do good.The epic 12-year-olds can not concentrate and be not good.. but still do well
Blizzard caters to their members with no morals. Botting isn't too hard in WoW.. check Ebay...
I don't like it because the playerbase sucks, It takes a few weeks to hit highest level, farming is simplistic and quick, they base there game around the "casual" gamers...
Yes it is true that a large proportion of them may be starving and an even larger proportion of them do not have electricity or a television let alone a pc but come on !
Don't you think that if the gaming companies got off their bums and tried a little harder they might just well seduce another 10 million people out of that 6 billion into playing a game, and yes even paying for it? So what if Blizzard did their psychology homework and lured in a few school kids and some disgruntled dads.
The dads will get a feel for it and decide they want something bigger and better. The kids will get bigger and start getting bigger computers. The world moves on. It is up to the other companies to be there to catch them when they fall from the trap. It'll happen.
Let WoW seduce all the people into online gaming and just be sure that you have the right net afterwards. People get bored with Wow sooner or later, it's inevitable and I am sure they are aware of it. They are pumping out their updates a lot faster than they used to. They are filled with bugs, they are slipping.
PS.....
Yes this is my first post, and yes I am only a new member to the forum but, I have been reading it for a long time. I have been playing games a long time and I have been seeing these "heated conversations" a long time. So, before anyone pipes up and states the obvious I feel I shall first.
I feel it's time people started looking at this old story in a new way, it really is getting tiresome.
I shall now hop off my cardboard box and hide back in the shadows again. Thank you for listening.
"Carebear" in it's truest sense is not shoddy PvP but a complete lack thereof. Carebears don't fight. Ever.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
"Carebear" in it's truest sense is not shoddy PvP but a complete lack thereof. Carebears don't fight. Ever.
when he says carebear pvp he means that there is no loss in dieing in pvp, unlike other games where you lose XP or drop items in your bag, or possibly drop equipped items. that therefore increases the value of pvp.
While WOW was not 100% complete, they had just about everything you needed in game for the first 40 levels or so from day 1. They were smart: they waited till it was 'done', or, at least, till the missing parts were for the high end of the game, which was going to take everyone some time to get to.
Anyway, I agree with the sentiment of the OP: WOW revolutionized the genre 9without even revolutionizing its formula, just by aiming for a high high quality in all of its aspects); WOW is not perfect, and yet we shouldn't expect a WOW Killer to show up anytime soon.
After all, it would sure take a lot for 10 million players that have spent thousand of hours on their WOW PCs to switch over, no ?
I'm calling BS on this one. If WoW's success was because it's EZmode then why has LOTRO hasn't had any where near as much success. Its just as easy or easier to play than WoW. It even has a more forgiving death penality and the quest log spells out exactly what you need to do to for the next step of the quest. It might a few more fellowship (group) quests but the game is not more difficult than WoW.
I'll throw in EQ2 in there as well. Played to level 33 or so before I got bored. Wasn't too difficult. I played a late beta of EQ2 the game is not as hard now (death penalities and linked mobs and such).
WoW does offer a challenge for the players who want it but at the same time is very enjoyable for the casual player also. This is just ONE of the secrets of its success.
If the secret to making a blockbuster MMORPG for it only to have a so called EZmode don't you think another game company would figure out that formula? But I guess your thoughts on game successes can be summed up in just one word.
The 1 and only thing that make WOW #1 is that its a very great looking game for low end computers so pretty much everyone can get into it all the other games out there lotro eq2 vanguard etc etc takes some good rigs too be able too play flawlessly.warhammer seems too be aiming at the same with warcraft has been aiming for low end reqs so anyone will most likly be able too play wow and war are gonna be some good contender for that.
Why the hell do people that haven't even played a game feel qualified to comment on it????
Well, I've never played Professional Football (US) yet I can offer you quite a few comments about it based on what I've read an observed. Video games are similar you know.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
also im not an aoc fanboy (im a darkfall fanboy) but still you have no idea how buggy the real servers will be its people like you that make fake review to make AoC go down the toilet.
1. WoW does not have real PVP.
2. WoW is designed for kids. It may not be only kids, but the fan base sure has a high percentage of them.
3. WoW is NOT difficult, i repeat WoW is NOT difficult.
Wow Doesn't have a fan base full of kids. You HAVE NO PROOF of this.
I would like to know what is wrong with kids? You make the word "kids" seem like it is some sort of disguisting deadly plauge that should be avoided.
Are you one of those "kid" haters, who hate "kids" for the sake of hating kids? Its not very intelligent to follow a trend you know? Maybe you should get a brain of your own and stop following this 'trend".
Kids can be matured too. You shouldn't sterotype them.
Alot of us played wow cause we grew old along with the Warcraft series. We were there when blizzard released the first warcraft . We HAD fun. We played warcraft thinking it was just another award winning "stragety" game but as we progressed through the campaigns, we were also intrigued by the lores surrounding the game. This is why wow has a huge fan base. WE GREW ALONG WITH IT
Here's what I don't get...
People from VanGuard and EQ2 calling WoW easy?
Yes. There is a lot of content for people who want easy, relaxing content. You know, casual players? A whole group of perfectly nice people who have as much fun playing WoW as anyone.
However, there is also the high end L70 stuff that matches or exceeds the difficulty of anything else on the market. WoW's bleeding edge top end raids can't be touched by anything in Vanguard. WoW's high end arena, say 2000+, is more dynamic, skill driven and competitive than just about any other MMO out there (DaoC might rival it). VG and EQ2 are slower in pace and shallower in complexity.
Sorry guys but WoW really wins for both casuals AND hard core players.
It just won't provide fun for you if your idea of fun is anything that takes a long time, involves a lot of repetition, and that makes you feel better because most casuals could never do what you just did! (unless of course they suddenly had as much free time and patience as you).
Going to close this by saying something for the 10,000th time:
TIME SINK =/= DIFFICULTY
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Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE
Currently - Bored.
Ok, this is strictly my opinion.... As an avid gamer of many MMO's and a player of WoW, I have come down to finding it mildly boring. But in its defense I will say these things.
I have played WoW, I have a 70 end-game Prot-Paladin, 70 end-game Resto-Shaman and many more. WoW does take team work, concentration and a high amount of skill and coordination to raid at high end. Being an AoE tank, I have found that while I am pounding on the three mobs in front of me to maintain threat, I have to constantly pan my screen to watch the rest of the raid. in case of aggro from re-pops are avoided mobs from someone stepping 2 steps to far to the left and grabbing an extra pack. Everyone, and I repeat, everyone top end, is required to be on top of their game to succeed. Take for instance, we went into Molten Core, with 10 level 70's and 10 others ranging from 61-69. Mind you, this is only a "EZmode", as another poster put it, raiding instance. And considering we are rated from 1-10 levels higher than what we are facing, this should have been a walkthrough. However, 3 hours later, we had managed to down one boss and wipe enough times that all of our gear was destroyed. Mind you, this same crew of 10 level 70's can clean sweep Kara effortlessly. The content is designed to be appealing, and remain as challenging as possble while maintaining a user friendly environment and an atmosphere of accomplishment even on a failed attempt.
PvP I will admit, needs a lot of work, however, that is only to continue to appeal to the hard-core PvPers (like myself) who enjoy the challenge of facing a non-AI'd creature. It is, however, a very balanced system in terms of classes and skills. When done correctly, with a team, as all of the battlegrounds are designed to be, it can be a very rewarding system. Again, as a Prot-Paladin, a few of my guildies and I made a guild only 10 man for a Warsong Gulch (capture the flag for those who don't know). i was designated as the falg carrier, due to wearing platemail and havign a massive defense. I run in, grab the flag and run out. In one situation, I found myself being attacked and chased by a rogue. I very well built one at that. However, his damage to me was miniscule. Now some will complain that Prot is to over powered because they are so hard to damage, however, the twist is, my DPS output is that of a level 30 at best. So my chances of killing him before he eventually kills me is slim to none. I didn't die however, for one reason only. I had two healers focused on me, while our DPS focused on him. We won the game, not becasue its easy or weak, but because of a bad choice on that player, and those he was with. They failed to work as a team, and he failed to take out my invulnerability. The healers. For the casual gamer, one can log on, do some quick PvP to earn some honor, as it is awarded whether you win or lose, just different amounts, grab a piece of gear every few hours of gameplay and feel as if they are progressing. That is another quality of WoW that few other MMO's have accomplished.
As for kids playing WoW. The game simply appeals to the senses for the younger generations. Though they seem cartoony to some (me included) they still have a glimmer in their own right. However, to make another point, each person should be judged by their own actions and sterotypes should be discarded. And before it even begins, no this isn't some self-righteous way of living, when it comes to gaming, I had it not-so-literally shoved in my face one day while playing DDO. I too was under the assumption that kids shouldnt play online games due to inabilities is understanding and other areas. Then I find myself in a group with a warforged Fighter/Wizard. It was a full party and we clearing a level 10 instance on Elite (back when 10 was the cap) and all using in game voice. The fighter, however, had not spoken once since he joined the party. I assumed it was due to concentration of maintaining all the threat, which mind you, he was doing a stunning job of. Skills were being executed perfectly, with impeccable timing and accuracy. Come to find out, when he started to speak near the end of the instance, it was a 7 year old boy who was playing the game with his dad, seated across the room at a seperate computer. His dad was a Sorc, and only played because his son asked him too, and found he liked the game. I found myself in this situation once again, later in WoW, while doing a Kara run with a new recruit Holy Priest. Who later on we found to be a 9 year old girl who joined because her older brother played. She too was also very stellar and one of the best healers I ever ran with.
My point is, WoW has its very strong points, and though it has some weak ones, they are simply to miniscule to be a bother, and are still fixed at the earliest possible time. Which keeps the game running smooth, user friendly and appealing to all ages, genders and game types. If it continues as is, and keeps its player base happy with updates and expansions, it will be a game that will be played by many for a long time.
I apologize for the long post, and hope that clears up some issues with not only the game, be the de-railing of issues arising with "types of players", but then again, I am just one man with many experiances to speak of.
*cough* eh-hem...I'm a proud retiree of WoW (Sep07-Mar08). I played it for 6 months (all epic :P lvl 70 Tauren Warrior, part vengeful, part merc). Had to quit because of college (ITT Tech, Game Design) and girlfriend (love that booty), but I loved every minute of my time spent on it.
P.S. - Yes, I quoted myself. And guess what?...I'll do it again, and again, and again just to SHOVE IT IN THE HATERS' FACES! .../flex (flaming topic, so I FLAME, I FLAME, I FLAME!)
Currently Playing: 3ds Max 2009
Played and Loved: World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Warhammer Online
Best F2P MMO: Requiem Bloodymare
Want to Play: Aion (See Teaser), DCuniverseOnline (awesome gameplay videos)
CCP (creators of EVE Online) has proven that you can do a real PVP MMO (AoC, WAR, WoW etc. arent PVP at all) building on UO's (the founders of CCP played UO) true PVP system.
If you die in a mmo and there's no real loss, it's not real PVP.
What CCP perfected is the expanded crafting system and using crafted item as the base of 'good gear' so to speak - and when you die nothing is 'soulbound' = you can loot your targets 'corpse'. This makes crafting a central part of the games economy and suddenly you can 'PVP' in crafting and economy as well.
CCP are now developing a first person MMO based upon Whitewold's Vampires universe. Taking all they learnt in EVE, and putting it to use to make a true first person PVP MMO.
Let's hope Iceland doesn't go bankrupt before it's launched