One of the worst quest in LOTRO which was used by F2P: walk with Frodo, you got this quest to walk with Frodo for about 10 minutes, he is talking to himself, although you dont have to walk with him just wait until Sam came to you, Voila, 4500 exp. When I play 9Dragons, an old man ask me to deliver a letter to a little girl, the girl just stands 2 meters away from him. Why the old man needs help? because he is nearly blind.
Hehe..this reminds me of an event that ocurred a few weeks ago when I was doing an instance with a group in LOTRO. We were waiting on a replacement member for the group since one had to log and were chatting about LOTRO Lore in general. About half way through the discussion, one of the members (who was silent through much of the conversation) said:
"What ring?". I don't have that quest, can someone share it with me?. I only know I am suppose to kill 9 goasts.
If you don't pay attention to the story or know at least the basics of Tolkiens works, this game can be confusing and boring.
Walk with Frodo is just another example. It is one of many drama only events that is ment to get you caught up with 'The Fellowship' after you have been questing on so many side issues that is happening around the fellowship.
I can see where this quest would seem stupid to someone who enjoys playing the game instead of playing the story.
Anyways: to the op:
You can't lose with giving it a try. Who knows, LOTRO may unlock the LORE geek in you and you may enjoy this type of MMO. I'm alot like you in some ways and enjoy the challenge which LOTRO really doesn't deliver. But on the other hand, I have really become acustomed to how layed back LOTRO is yet still fun. Its nice to get away from the games that require 8 hours of raiding or floating in a spaceship to advance. I can put in a few hours of LOTRO, get plenty done and still have some time to enjoy the sun some :P
I'm gonna have to side with bursche here, in a way. What he's defining as skill in EQ1 usually boils down to class knowledge, target knowledge, and situational awareness. Whether you call this "skill" or not, it is still a positive aspect to a game, and it's more than a mob simply being "harder"; it's having to involve yourself in the gameplay itself to accomplish things. Kiting around a busy zone with wandering mobs takes at least some concentration. Pulling correctly takes patience and timing. Mezzing correctly takes situational awareness. Taking down a tough raid boss takes teamwork, target knowledge, and practice.
In the end, it wasn't EQ1's difficulty that bursche is referring to, I think, but the challenge, and there's a difference. It's not always difficult to complete a challenge, but it's still a challenge nonetheless. Challenges are what give us feelings of accomplishment, excitement, and interactive gameplay experience. I have so many memories of harrowing runs across the continent, or pickup raids against a dragon, or quad-kiting mobs in mob-heavy zones that would kill me in one hit, or even the failures such as trains, bad pulls, or mobs running away. These provide the player with gameplay experience and give him an attachment to the game, which is why EQ1 was more addictive than any game since, if not the most successful (that's another topic). Of course EQ1 had many drawbacks, but this isn't an EQ1 topic.
So, OP, if anything I'm saying rings a bell, LOTRO is not for you. LOTRO is even more dumbed down than EQ2. Much more so, in fact. The crowd is much younger, the mobs are much easier, the quests are much simpler, and gameplay is far less involved.
The answer to your next question is, there's no game out yet, or that I've seen on the horizon, that advertises anything like you (or I) would like to see in a PvE MMO. Developers have seen what made WoW so successful and will be copying it for a while. Eventually someone will catch on that there is a market out there for heavily involved gameplay, though. Until then, I'd say stick with whatever keeps you entertained, Maybe check out Age of Conan.
Good tidings, all. After playing EQ/EQ2 for 3 years, and after a particularly frustrating evening of grouping with people who have no idea how to play their classes, I logged out, deleted all my characters (lvl 80 dirge - bard - and one 73 assassin) and cancelled my subscription. So now I am looking for another MMO. Here are some questions I have before downloading the trial and making a go at it. Classes: I have always played a bard in RPGs and MMOs alike (EQ1, 2, Vanguard and Oblivion). Which class is most similar to that? I'm more interested in subtle classes that add to the group and are challenging to master (but all the better for it). Probably a minstrel that is based on the same concepts of the bard. It is the story teller that boosts the moral of the troops. A captain may fit too, kind of a jack of all trades. Depth: I am looking for a game with depth. Depth in gameplay, in class ability, in exploration, in tradeskilling, etc. LoTRO is a linear game, it is based on a story that many know but very few understand. If you enjoy playing a story line that game can provide much depth. I would recommend reading the book as you play. I enjoy finding even the smallest of notations in the book placed in Turbine's development of Middle Earth. Diversity: I like diversity between the classes - enough said. Lots of diversity, the classes tend to be very different. In fact the classes are as different as any MMO I have played. It is not your run of the mill mages, wizards, and warlocks kind of game. Think of the lore and then watch how they incorporate the classes to be actual classes in the book. Story and lore: I am a HUGE Tolkien fan and enjoyed reading the books. The literature is some of my favority of all time. That said, I also enjoy a game that has an overarching purpose, a story that drives the gameplay and gives meaning to my existence. This is personally one of my favortie parts of the game. Working the epic line of quests are the story, included animation clips and developed to make you feel as part of the story. Challenge: I like challenging gameplay. I enjoy pitting myself against difficult encounters and a harsh environment. I am goal oriented and like to "work" for what I have/want. I disagree with the opinions of most that do NOT play the game, the game play can be very challenge. Although if you mean by challenged the hour upon hour camping of a single mob for that one drop, I have not found that in this game. Or if you mean is it possible to solo by taking mobs 8 levels lower than you and playing the safe route? Yes that can be done, but if you play the game as intended and fight mobs your own level it can be very challenging. Not everyone likes to play games the safe way, but every game has that ability to fight mobs of no challenge but moderate experience WoW, EQ, and yes even LoTRO. So in essence, any MMO depends on how you want to make it challenging. Immersion: I want to be immersed. I'm a professional by day, but a gamer by night. I like to get lost in the MMO world, have fun with friends, and love grouping up to go against the challenging content to progress my character. This is one of the highlights of the game in my personal opinion. When I play a guardian, I feel like a tank. When I played a warrior in WoW or EQ I felt like "meh", meat shield. Start working on the great borrows at about 20 and see how much of a challenge it can be, fun also! Class abilities: I like to play a class that is difficult to master. I take pride in taking a difficult class and making it shine. I tend to be a quick study, and enjoy taking the extra time to learn the little things that make a class shine - especially in groups. Each class has abilities that rank and work if a prior ability is utilized. As a minstrel I have ballads that are rank one two and three, each one being progressive and requiring the prior before use. As a guarding I have offensive moves that require me to block or parry before I can use them. IT means I have to be aware of every fight and watch what options are open to me. Fun: This is subjective, of course. I love to have fun (who doesn't?). However, fun for me is getting involved in the game and the story and working through it with like-minded people. This is another area that game shines for me. It is a game, it is not about that hours and hours of grinding, mob camping, or item collecting. It is about the story line. It is a casual game for me and therefor it takes away the pressure of the other games I have played, I can log in, have fun, and call it a night. It is what games are meant to be, at least for me and the many others that enjoy this game. That pretty much covers it. My hope is that this game can provide that for me, and that the good people on these boards will chime in with responses that will give me the real scoop. Good luck and let everyone know what you think. And Welcome. Thanks for taking the time to read through this. I look forward to reading the responses. Lonestryder
I agree with about half of what Lonestryder said. The storytelling in the game is it's major selling point and, if you're a big fan of Tolkien, then maybe that will do it for you.
Obviously, I don't understand how anyone can call the game challenging, though. I think Lone is making the mistake of thinking game challenge is simply game difficulty (specifically, mob difficulty). Like he said, any game can be "difficult"...you just have to attack harder stuff, or use worse weapons, or maybe play the game blind. I don't think that's what the OP meant when he was asking about challenging, though. I explained what I meant two posts up, so I won't get into detail, but it's the same with the "difficult to master classes" question.
I think there is a lot of confusion about what challenging is.
Many MMO gamers have (and please readers do NOT take this the wrong way) have grown up and developed responsibilities. They have time constraints because real life is more important than game time. And what I personally find when most players talk challenging is the following:
1. Rare Drops.......meaning one has to camp mobs for days to get the item they need, that is time consuming not challanging.
2. Rare Mobs....camping my j-boots in EQ took me three days. This entails camping a place holder mob that in the hopes will spawn a rare mob on the next turn, usually after hours and hours of killing the same mob, your eyes are dropping, drool is coming out of your mouth, and then the rare mob spawns, catches you off guard and kills you because your were droned into killing the same mob over and over and it became habit. That is not challenge is it tedium.
3. Grouping requirements.....as I stated before in another thread, many (not all) gamers are introverted (and if people would like I can post a study or two to show this is the case). One of the greatest problems in MMO gaming is that a few players spoil it for everyone else. There are a few that are controlling, whining, yelling, absolute power jockeys, that most introverted personality types have MUCH better self esteem than to put up with that. They choose not to group because it tends to be consistant that one out of five or one out of six in the group tends to be a maniacal power sucking personality that forces everyone to do it his/her (rarely a true her) way and then blame everyone else for when it fails. Grouping demands are too much of a constraint on time for the gamer that only has an hour to play and does not want to spend 50 minutes LFG. So while grouping may be a challenge (I agree) it is not feasible because no one want to group with the obnoxious or take the time and waste it LFG.
4. Raiding requirements...follows a similar pattern to grouping. In my experience and I may be able to find a study or two to reaffirm my statements, RPG's (definitely) and many MMO's tend to be non conformist. They tend to see beyond the narrow scope of Guild rules that say all loot drops goes to guild bank after guild leader and guild officers takes their hard earned shares. Most of these gamers tend to want fair and balanced requirements and rewards, and most (not all) guilds can not sustain without the politics. So the political debacle coupled with little time to dedicate for a guild raid complicates the challenge aspect of this.
5. Puzzle quests....meaning many games now suffer from the ring, question mark, etc over the head of an npc that gives out a quest, rather than trying to find a quest and figure out what you have to do. Again that was not necessarily challenge to figure out who the npc was and the dialogue you needed, it was a time sink. And because most players got irritated at time sinks because REAL life responsibilities weighed in more many MMO's adapted.
I am sure there are more challenging vs time sinks aspects I could list but time constraints do not allow me today.
Again I still believe that time sinks do NOT make a game challenging, they just manage to make me play longer so the MMO company can keep getting my monthly fee. Any game (even EQ omgz!) has easy mode styles of play. Where one can choose the safest, least consequential, and smoothest way to solo your way up the ladder, that is all about how you choose to play.
1. I agree that camping mobs for days does not mean challenge. I've never heard anyone who wanted to do this and it was one of EQ1's few, but large, downfalls.
3. I disagree here. Your point about grouping sounds like a personal issue and I haven't seen the same view held all that widely, though it's hard to argue the point because neither of us have proof either way. What I can say is "Why are you playing an MMO if you aren't going to interact with other players?". One of the primary points of an mmorpg is working together with other players to accomplish tasks and take down enemies you couldn't do on your own. Soloing has generally not been incredibly popular unless a group is unavailable. If you play LOTRO as your primary mmo, then maybe that's the problem. When I found out I had been grouped with three 7-year olds in the same day, I quit. The groups were incredibly juvenile and there were a lot of rude players. I've heard WoW is the same way, though I didn't play long enough to know for sure.
4. Again, this sounds like personal disgruntlement. Many guilds raid with little to no drama. There are also no mmo games out there that make raiding a requirement to advance, though no one has ever explained to me why they don't want to raid.
5. Puzzle quests can go either way. Putting aside the fact that a walkthrough of nearly every mmo's quest can be found online....let's say you didn't have that resource somehow. Yes, some can be tedious, but I wouldn't be so hasty as to refer to all quests that take a little time to complete as "time-sinks". If every quest could be completed in 2 minutes or less, what since of accomplishment would there ever be? Good quests will involve the player in the game and present him with challenges, though there are undoubtedly time-sink quests out there.
I never said time sinks made a game challenging. I described what challenge was in my first post on page 3.
1. I agree that camping mobs for days does not mean challenge. I've never heard anyone who wanted to do this and it was one of EQ1's few, but large, downfalls. 2. Same as #1. 3. I disagree here. Your point about grouping sounds like a personal issue and I haven't seen the same view held all that widely, though it's hard to argue the point because neither of us have proof either way. What I can say is "Why are you playing an MMO if you aren't going to interact with other players?". One of the primary points of an mmorpg is working together with other players to accomplish tasks and take down enemies you couldn't do on your own. Soloing has generally not been incredibly popular unless a group is unavailable. If you play LOTRO as your primary mmo, then maybe that's the problem. When I found out I had been grouped with three 7-year olds in the same day, I quit. The groups were incredibly juvenile and there were a lot of rude players. I've heard WoW is the same way, though I didn't play long enough to know for sure. 4. Again, this sounds like personal disgruntlement. Many guilds raid with little to no drama. There are also no mmo games out there that make raiding a requirement to advance, though no one has ever explained to me why they don't want to raid. 5. Puzzle quests can go either way. Putting aside the fact that a walkthrough of nearly every mmo's quest can be found online....let's say you didn't have that resource somehow. Yes, some can be tedious, but I wouldn't be so hasty as to refer to all quests that take a little time to complete as "time-sinks". If every quest could be completed in 2 minutes or less, what since of accomplishment would there ever be? Good quests will involve the player in the game and present him with challenges, though there are undoubtedly time-sink quests out there.
I never said time sinks made a game challenging. I described what challenge was in my first post on page 3.
Counters to my points 1, 2, and 5 I value what you have to say.......but.......
Sigh ......Points 3 and 4 I disagree.......here we go again with the famous "it must be a personal issue" counter to my statements. So below once again I am posting a study about social computing and the sociology and psychology behind the impact of computing and the individual.
And I quote (yet again): "In contrast, introverts were more likely to participate in synchronous forms of social technologies, such as online gaming, because they are more likely to use technology as a replacement for face-to-face interaction."
So this is not about it being a "personal" issue at all. It is actually taking the evidence that is the basis of this and many current studies going on, and actually trying to define the problems in lay-mans terms. One posters tries to "claim" the problem with grouping is solely based on people "not knowing' their class. When I actually counter it with most people are "gun shy" so to speak and prefer not to group because of bad experiences. It does not mean they do NOT want to group, it means they are VERY careful who the group with, since the games seem to be full of jerks that demand far more from others even beyond what that jerk can give themselves.
Obviously I'm not gonna read that whole link, but I skimmed through it and I don't see anything about online games. Like I said previously, though. No one can win an argument about how many people like or dislike something, so I won't try.
The original point you were making was that players shouldn't be pressured to group. My point on that still stands. Whether players are juvenile or not, it really doesn't matter. If you're not going to interact, for whatever reason, you shouldn't be playing. Period. MMOs must emphasize teamwork. There is no other option, because that is what they are.
I read your quote, and neither that quote nor anything in the article proves, or even attempts to show, that mmorpg gamers want to group but are afraid of jerks in the groups. I'm not going to argue this issue anymore, though, because it's way off topic. If you, or anyone else, has comments that would actually help the OP out, then feel free to post. Otherwise, I'd recommend creating a separate topic.
If you're not going to interact, for whatever reason, you shouldn't be playing. Period. MMOs must emphasize teamwork. There is no other option, because that is what they are.
You're making the assumption that grouping is the only way to interact.
A lot of people play MMOs for the conversation. They can chat in /ooc channels, they can RP in taverns, they can socialize with their guildmates in /kinship chat, etc.
Those activities do require online play but have nothing to do with group quests. They are perfectly valid reasons to not play an Elder Scrolls style game offline.
Morever, they are paying to play the game. If Turbine wants their money and wants to put in content that people can do completely alone without ever grouping or posting on the forums so that those players will continue to fork over their subscription fees, then so be it.
Scolding other people because they don't play the way you do or enjoy the same playstyle as you do is condescending and judgmental. Which, in itself, isn't a surprise on the interwebnets. But it's still sh*tty.
OK, the activities you listed are not part of the gameplay. Chatting in OOC, RPing, or chatting with guildmates are all just that...chatting; and that can be done in a mIRC chatroom. There is no real "interaction" involved. Any singleplayer game can setup a chatroom online somewhere for people to talk on. That's not what an MMO is about. If you're not grouping you're missing out on 80% of what the game has to offer and you could probably save yourself some monthly fees by playing non-mmo games.
Also, I'm not "scolding" anyone. That's rediculous. I'm rebutting someone's earlier comment about groups. If people playing massively multiplayer games don't want to group, fine. I am saying that the playstyle seems irrational, though.
Chatting in OOC, RPing, or chatting with guildmates are all just that...chatting; and that can be done in a mIRC chatroom. There is no real "interaction" involved.
*snort*
RPers aren't interacting, that's a good one.
Again, those are perfectly valid activities and interactions to pursue in an online game. Just cause you can do them elsewhere, too, doesn't mean they shouldn't do them in an MMO. You can "group" in a PnP or forum-based RP, too. Those would probably be free, also, so you're just as "irrational" for paying to do it.
What? You like the graphical UI? You like having a virtual world in which to partake in your activities? You don't say?!
As for the rest, if you can't see how calling people "irrational" for playing the game differently,or alluding they have no business playing an MMO if they don't play it the way you do is scolding (and incredibly condescending), then it "sounds like a personal problem."
I think Ghazni has a valid point but a hard time communicating it. I respect everyone who "just" wants to RP, or "just" wants to chat or "just" wants to watch the graphics or "just" wants to voice chat. I also have my times where i "just" wander around alone and gather crafting stuff. (Altho i think it would be more fun to carry the tree's together tho, or dig real mines with the kinship in bought mountain areas but thats a different topic.)
These are all things you can spend your time with in all MMO's. But why does it mean that group content needs to be removed? Why do raids get smaller and smaller? Does it justify to remove group content just because the solo player would not see it? It's the solo players own choice that he wants it solo, so of course he misses out group content. You say Ghazni is projecting his playstyle on others. Don't soloers force their playstyle on others by demanding more and more solo content and crying about group content that is "too time consuming to take part of".
As much as i like lotro but it does lack huge raids for me - at least from time to time i would have loved to be part of a 80+ man army giving mordor a hard time. And the number of 6 man instances is pretty small too if you ask me. Yes 80+ people raids are possible without crashing modern servers or computers.
The mistake made in the past was, that the only way to get top gear was by raiding. On the other hand, top gear was only needed for raiding more item intense raids. Why any solo player feels left out of something that he doesnt need for their playstyle is also a strange phenomenon.
EQ was a horrible excuse for a game and continues that tradition. EQ isn't a game it is an endless time sink for people with no life outside the game world. Anyone else will not be able to keep up with the endless expansions and item farming that require countless hours. All of this to participate in the lag fest of greed that is called an EQ raid.
LOTRO is a high quality game that doesn't demand your entire life to compete.
Originally posted by Analyser But why does it mean that group content needs to be removed? Why do raids get smaller and smaller? Does it justify to remove group content just because the solo player would not see it? It's the solo players own choice that he wants it solo, so of course he misses out group content. You say Ghazni is projecting his playstyle on others. Don't soloers force their playstyle on others by demanding more and more solo content and crying about group content that is "too time consuming to take part of". [snip] The mistake made in the past was, that the only way to get top gear was by raiding. On the other hand, top gear was only needed for raiding more item intense raids. Why any solo player feels left out of something that he doesnt need for their playstyle is also a strange phenomenon.
Firstly, I didn't advocate removing group content. I never have. Raids get smaller and smaller because graphics get better and files get larger and LAG gets worse. I've been in 100+ man raids. I led them in DAoC for two years. Lag sucks. LotRO is a resource hog with a memory leak they can't seem to totally snuff out. I chug in the PvP battles of 24 vs. 24 on the bare minimal settings, though I can run through the game world on the max just fine.
Also, it isn't always a solo player's choice; another unreasonable assumption. A lot of people just plain don't have the time to sit at their computer for 6-8 hours for virtual prizes. Their jobs or their families have to take priority. LotRO especially has drawn that crowd in large numbers.
I've always asked for equivalent alternatives. Give me an alternate route that I can take to get some equally spiffy stuff. Give me a time sink that I can spread out over a few weeks or months, a challenge I can chip away at a couple of hours here an there. And Turbine has been really great about doing that. Don't want to raid the Rift? Now you can (finally) PvP for sweet gear. PvP isn't your speed? Stock pile those hides and craft your little heart out. Not a crafty kind of person? Then just collect resources for sale, charge for Hunter-taxi ports, farm beryl shards, or play the AH to make your fortune so you can buy the crafted stuff.
Players are asking for more alternatives. They are asking that the devs give players more choices. Let me do a long quest chain that is instanced and solo-only which can be done in small steps over the course of a month or two on my weekends. Don't always gate the best rewards behind group quests, that's a lazy way to make content "difficult" and time-consuming. That's the way everyone else does it, innovate FFS. There are other ways to put in hoops for a player to jump through to 'earn' the good stuff, not just raiding and grouping.
And "needing" ooobar gear is BS in LotRO. There are some gear-centric games in which the argument could be raised. I've played them, this isn't those games. My husband and I PvP and raid without maxed out gear just fine. Further, almost all players want nice gear. Some people want the stats, some people like the sense of accomplishment, some people just want the look. With the new outfit system in, the latter argument is especially valid.
Raiders and PvPers want gear for an 'edge' of some sort. That reason isn't any more important than the guy that wants gear that makes him look like a badass even when he's just strolling through the Pony. Everyone wants phat lootz. It's not a strange phenomenon, it's an MMO.
If that isn't enough, then my point comes down to: why does any raider feel put out that someone else gets their own cool stuff through another means? It doesn't diminish your own work, you've still got the unique raiding set or the unique group quest rewards that are BoA and can't be had any other way. The bonuses don't change based on how many sets of crafted gear are currently equipped on the server.
You won't catch me arguing that devs should eliminate group or raid rewards, or that anyone who enjoys those playstyles "has no business" playing the same game I am. The furthest I'm willing to go on that issue is it's good to know the game your playing. I wouldn't fire off angry missives at EA Mythic for focusing on PvP in WAR. But neither do I think they should deliberately chase away PvE players.
Firstly, I didn't advocate removing group content. I never have. Raids get smaller and smaller because graphics get better and files get larger and LAG gets worse. I've been in 100+ man raids. I led them in DAoC for two years. Lag sucks. LotRO is a resource hog with a memory leak they can't seem to totally snuff out. I chug in the PvP battles of 24 vs. 24 on the bare minimal settings, though I can run through the game world on the max just fine.
I only have time to comment on this now, maybe i read the rest of your post later.
This is completely wrong. Graphics are not communicated during playing and have nothing to do with LAG they are on your hard drive. All that is managed by the servers are vectors and actions. Even chatting is bypassed in modern MMO's on different servers.
To tell you the truth, compared to DAoC there is LESS communication because there is no collision check - player models run through each other like ghosts. The combat actions are probably easier to handle too, because the fights are a little slower and the variety of actions and possible reactions is smaller.
These two facts in mind plus the knowledge that a modern computer is 8-25 times faster, has 20 - 40 times the graphic power and all the game supporting software has been optimised for years now make it look silly that a game claims it can't cope with more than 24 players in an instance.
Keep in mind: On my box of LOTRO stands that i need a broadband internet connection, while DAoC was designed for 56k dial up. So we are 56k/s vs. 768k/s and most people probably have better than 768k/s by now.
On a side note: I was talking about epic raids with 100+ not PvP with 200+ which again makes it much easier to handle.
Havent read the rest of your post but i hope it is more accurate than this paragraph.
Also, it isn't always a solo player's choice; another unreasonable assumption. A lot of people just plain don't have the time to sit at their computer for 6-8 hours for virtual prizes. Their jobs or their families have to take priority. LotRO especially has drawn that crowd in large numbers.
Next paragraph... not really more accurate than the first one i replied to.
100+ people raids do not have to take 6-8 houers. I have job+family+house too but still miss the POSSIBILITY or even the knowledge that bigger things happen in middle earth. It does not set me under preasure or depress me if i can not attend all of the epic stuff but it would add a great deal to the atmosphere to know that its there.
I've always asked for equivalent alternatives. Give me an alternate route that I can take to get some equally spiffy stuff. Give me a time sink that I can spread out over a few weeks or months, a challenge I can chip away at a couple of hours here an there. And Turbine has been really great about doing that. Don't want to raid the Rift? Now you can (finally) PvP for sweet gear. PvP isn't your speed? Stock pile those hides and craft your little heart out. Not a crafty kind of person? Then just collect resources for sale, charge for Hunter-taxi ports, farm beryl shards, or play the AH to make your fortune so you can buy the crafted stuff.
Players are asking for more alternatives. They are asking that the devs give players more choices. Let me do a long quest chain that is instanced and solo-only which can be done in small steps over the course of a month or two on my weekends. Don't always gate the best rewards behind group quests, that's a lazy way to make content "difficult" and time-consuming. That's the way everyone else does it, innovate FFS. There are other ways to put in hoops for a player to jump through to 'earn' the good stuff, not just raiding and grouping.
Oh i think now i understand you a little better. So all you do is play for gear? Seeking alternatives to gain better gear? Crafting, Solo Play, Group play, farming, raiding - you all only do it for better "Spiffy Stuff"? And if your playstyle is not rewarded with gear the game is crap?
Sorry but i was talking about the EPIC atmosphere of mass raids. The thrill you have when in the heat of battle things go wrong and your group or you alone manage to make the difference. I have enjoyed DAoC for the massive feeling of the few mass raids. I can tell you about heroic battles but i can not tell you about gear because i forgot about it.
So while you look for alternatives to get gear, i look for alternatives t o have fun.
And this "alternative" to have FUN is missing in lotro. Mass raids.
Comments
Hehe..this reminds me of an event that ocurred a few weeks ago when I was doing an instance with a group in LOTRO. We were waiting on a replacement member for the group since one had to log and were chatting about LOTRO Lore in general. About half way through the discussion, one of the members (who was silent through much of the conversation) said:
"What ring?". I don't have that quest, can someone share it with me?. I only know I am suppose to kill 9 goasts.
If you don't pay attention to the story or know at least the basics of Tolkiens works, this game can be confusing and boring.
Walk with Frodo is just another example. It is one of many drama only events that is ment to get you caught up with 'The Fellowship' after you have been questing on so many side issues that is happening around the fellowship.
I can see where this quest would seem stupid to someone who enjoys playing the game instead of playing the story.
Anyways: to the op:
You can't lose with giving it a try. Who knows, LOTRO may unlock the LORE geek in you and you may enjoy this type of MMO. I'm alot like you in some ways and enjoy the challenge which LOTRO really doesn't deliver. But on the other hand, I have really become acustomed to how layed back LOTRO is yet still fun. Its nice to get away from the games that require 8 hours of raiding or floating in a spaceship to advance. I can put in a few hours of LOTRO, get plenty done and still have some time to enjoy the sun some :P
Enjoy!
I'm gonna have to side with bursche here, in a way. What he's defining as skill in EQ1 usually boils down to class knowledge, target knowledge, and situational awareness. Whether you call this "skill" or not, it is still a positive aspect to a game, and it's more than a mob simply being "harder"; it's having to involve yourself in the gameplay itself to accomplish things. Kiting around a busy zone with wandering mobs takes at least some concentration. Pulling correctly takes patience and timing. Mezzing correctly takes situational awareness. Taking down a tough raid boss takes teamwork, target knowledge, and practice.
In the end, it wasn't EQ1's difficulty that bursche is referring to, I think, but the challenge, and there's a difference. It's not always difficult to complete a challenge, but it's still a challenge nonetheless. Challenges are what give us feelings of accomplishment, excitement, and interactive gameplay experience. I have so many memories of harrowing runs across the continent, or pickup raids against a dragon, or quad-kiting mobs in mob-heavy zones that would kill me in one hit, or even the failures such as trains, bad pulls, or mobs running away. These provide the player with gameplay experience and give him an attachment to the game, which is why EQ1 was more addictive than any game since, if not the most successful (that's another topic). Of course EQ1 had many drawbacks, but this isn't an EQ1 topic.
So, OP, if anything I'm saying rings a bell, LOTRO is not for you. LOTRO is even more dumbed down than EQ2. Much more so, in fact. The crowd is much younger, the mobs are much easier, the quests are much simpler, and gameplay is far less involved.
The answer to your next question is, there's no game out yet, or that I've seen on the horizon, that advertises anything like you (or I) would like to see in a PvE MMO. Developers have seen what made WoW so successful and will be copying it for a while. Eventually someone will catch on that there is a market out there for heavily involved gameplay, though. Until then, I'd say stick with whatever keeps you entertained, Maybe check out Age of Conan.
I agree with about half of what Lonestryder said. The storytelling in the game is it's major selling point and, if you're a big fan of Tolkien, then maybe that will do it for you.
Obviously, I don't understand how anyone can call the game challenging, though. I think Lone is making the mistake of thinking game challenge is simply game difficulty (specifically, mob difficulty). Like he said, any game can be "difficult"...you just have to attack harder stuff, or use worse weapons, or maybe play the game blind. I don't think that's what the OP meant when he was asking about challenging, though. I explained what I meant two posts up, so I won't get into detail, but it's the same with the "difficult to master classes" question.
I think there is a lot of confusion about what challenging is.
Many MMO gamers have (and please readers do NOT take this the wrong way) have grown up and developed responsibilities. They have time constraints because real life is more important than game time. And what I personally find when most players talk challenging is the following:
1. Rare Drops.......meaning one has to camp mobs for days to get the item they need, that is time consuming not challanging.
2. Rare Mobs....camping my j-boots in EQ took me three days. This entails camping a place holder mob that in the hopes will spawn a rare mob on the next turn, usually after hours and hours of killing the same mob, your eyes are dropping, drool is coming out of your mouth, and then the rare mob spawns, catches you off guard and kills you because your were droned into killing the same mob over and over and it became habit. That is not challenge is it tedium.
3. Grouping requirements.....as I stated before in another thread, many (not all) gamers are introverted (and if people would like I can post a study or two to show this is the case). One of the greatest problems in MMO gaming is that a few players spoil it for everyone else. There are a few that are controlling, whining, yelling, absolute power jockeys, that most introverted personality types have MUCH better self esteem than to put up with that. They choose not to group because it tends to be consistant that one out of five or one out of six in the group tends to be a maniacal power sucking personality that forces everyone to do it his/her (rarely a true her) way and then blame everyone else for when it fails. Grouping demands are too much of a constraint on time for the gamer that only has an hour to play and does not want to spend 50 minutes LFG. So while grouping may be a challenge (I agree) it is not feasible because no one want to group with the obnoxious or take the time and waste it LFG.
4. Raiding requirements...follows a similar pattern to grouping. In my experience and I may be able to find a study or two to reaffirm my statements, RPG's (definitely) and many MMO's tend to be non conformist. They tend to see beyond the narrow scope of Guild rules that say all loot drops goes to guild bank after guild leader and guild officers takes their hard earned shares. Most of these gamers tend to want fair and balanced requirements and rewards, and most (not all) guilds can not sustain without the politics. So the political debacle coupled with little time to dedicate for a guild raid complicates the challenge aspect of this.
5. Puzzle quests....meaning many games now suffer from the ring, question mark, etc over the head of an npc that gives out a quest, rather than trying to find a quest and figure out what you have to do. Again that was not necessarily challenge to figure out who the npc was and the dialogue you needed, it was a time sink. And because most players got irritated at time sinks because REAL life responsibilities weighed in more many MMO's adapted.
I am sure there are more challenging vs time sinks aspects I could list but time constraints do not allow me today.
Again I still believe that time sinks do NOT make a game challenging, they just manage to make me play longer so the MMO company can keep getting my monthly fee. Any game (even EQ omgz!) has easy mode styles of play. Where one can choose the safest, least consequential, and smoothest way to solo your way up the ladder, that is all about how you choose to play.
1. I agree that camping mobs for days does not mean challenge. I've never heard anyone who wanted to do this and it was one of EQ1's few, but large, downfalls.
2. Same as #1.
3. I disagree here. Your point about grouping sounds like a personal issue and I haven't seen the same view held all that widely, though it's hard to argue the point because neither of us have proof either way. What I can say is "Why are you playing an MMO if you aren't going to interact with other players?". One of the primary points of an mmorpg is working together with other players to accomplish tasks and take down enemies you couldn't do on your own. Soloing has generally not been incredibly popular unless a group is unavailable. If you play LOTRO as your primary mmo, then maybe that's the problem. When I found out I had been grouped with three 7-year olds in the same day, I quit. The groups were incredibly juvenile and there were a lot of rude players. I've heard WoW is the same way, though I didn't play long enough to know for sure.
4. Again, this sounds like personal disgruntlement. Many guilds raid with little to no drama. There are also no mmo games out there that make raiding a requirement to advance, though no one has ever explained to me why they don't want to raid.
5. Puzzle quests can go either way. Putting aside the fact that a walkthrough of nearly every mmo's quest can be found online....let's say you didn't have that resource somehow. Yes, some can be tedious, but I wouldn't be so hasty as to refer to all quests that take a little time to complete as "time-sinks". If every quest could be completed in 2 minutes or less, what since of accomplishment would there ever be? Good quests will involve the player in the game and present him with challenges, though there are undoubtedly time-sink quests out there.
I never said time sinks made a game challenging. I described what challenge was in my first post on page 3.
Counters to my points 1, 2, and 5 I value what you have to say.......but.......
Sigh
......Points 3 and 4 I disagree.......here we go again with the famous "it must be a personal issue" counter to my statements. So below once again I am posting a study about social computing and the sociology and psychology behind the impact of computing and the individual.
And I quote (yet again): "In contrast, introverts were more likely to participate in synchronous forms of social technologies, such as online gaming, because they are more likely to use technology as a replacement for face-to-face interaction."
So this is not about it being a "personal" issue at all. It is actually taking the evidence that is the basis of this and many current studies going on, and actually trying to define the problems in lay-mans terms. One posters tries to "claim" the problem with grouping is solely based on people "not knowing' their class. When I actually counter it with most people are "gun shy" so to speak and prefer not to group because of bad experiences. It does not mean they do NOT want to group, it means they are VERY careful who the group with, since the games seem to be full of jerks that demand far more from others even beyond what that jerk can give themselves.
But anywho, here is the link:
wagglelabs.com/assets/2007/2/24/researchinsocialcomputing.pdf
And again, trying to point out that it is a personally issue only distracts from the evidence that it is a gaming phenomena.
Obviously I'm not gonna read that whole link, but I skimmed through it and I don't see anything about online games. Like I said previously, though. No one can win an argument about how many people like or dislike something, so I won't try.
The original point you were making was that players shouldn't be pressured to group. My point on that still stands. Whether players are juvenile or not, it really doesn't matter. If you're not going to interact, for whatever reason, you shouldn't be playing. Period. MMOs must emphasize teamwork. There is no other option, because that is what they are.
Read the quote, then go to the link and use firefox and do a search, that is about the best I can do and not read the whole thing for you.
You said I could not prove what I say, yet I provide a case study of exactly what I say, yet it is still not good enough. Really sad if you ask me
I read your quote, and neither that quote nor anything in the article proves, or even attempts to show, that mmorpg gamers want to group but are afraid of jerks in the groups. I'm not going to argue this issue anymore, though, because it's way off topic. If you, or anyone else, has comments that would actually help the OP out, then feel free to post. Otherwise, I'd recommend creating a separate topic.
You're making the assumption that grouping is the only way to interact.
A lot of people play MMOs for the conversation. They can chat in /ooc channels, they can RP in taverns, they can socialize with their guildmates in /kinship chat, etc.
Those activities do require online play but have nothing to do with group quests. They are perfectly valid reasons to not play an Elder Scrolls style game offline.
Morever, they are paying to play the game. If Turbine wants their money and wants to put in content that people can do completely alone without ever grouping or posting on the forums so that those players will continue to fork over their subscription fees, then so be it.
Scolding other people because they don't play the way you do or enjoy the same playstyle as you do is condescending and judgmental. Which, in itself, isn't a surprise on the interwebnets. But it's still sh*tty.
Previous played: SWG (pre-NGE), DAoC, CoH, Anarchy Online, DDO, Champions Online Beta, LOTRO, GW2, SWTOR
OK, the activities you listed are not part of the gameplay. Chatting in OOC, RPing, or chatting with guildmates are all just that...chatting; and that can be done in a mIRC chatroom. There is no real "interaction" involved. Any singleplayer game can setup a chatroom online somewhere for people to talk on. That's not what an MMO is about. If you're not grouping you're missing out on 80% of what the game has to offer and you could probably save yourself some monthly fees by playing non-mmo games.
Also, I'm not "scolding" anyone. That's rediculous. I'm rebutting someone's earlier comment about groups. If people playing massively multiplayer games don't want to group, fine. I am saying that the playstyle seems irrational, though.
RPers aren't interacting, that's a good one.
Again, those are perfectly valid activities and interactions to pursue in an online game. Just cause you can do them elsewhere, too, doesn't mean they shouldn't do them in an MMO. You can "group" in a PnP or forum-based RP, too. Those would probably be free, also, so you're just as "irrational" for paying to do it.
What? You like the graphical UI? You like having a virtual world in which to partake in your activities? You don't say?!
As for the rest, if you can't see how calling people "irrational" for playing the game differently,or alluding they have no business playing an MMO if they don't play it the way you do is scolding (and incredibly condescending), then it "sounds like a personal problem."
Previous played: SWG (pre-NGE), DAoC, CoH, Anarchy Online, DDO, Champions Online Beta, LOTRO, GW2, SWTOR
I think Ghazni has a valid point but a hard time communicating it. I respect everyone who "just" wants to RP, or "just" wants to chat or "just" wants to watch the graphics or "just" wants to voice chat. I also have my times where i "just" wander around alone and gather crafting stuff. (Altho i think it would be more fun to carry the tree's together tho, or dig real mines with the kinship in bought mountain areas but thats a different topic.)
These are all things you can spend your time with in all MMO's. But why does it mean that group content needs to be removed? Why do raids get smaller and smaller? Does it justify to remove group content just because the solo player would not see it? It's the solo players own choice that he wants it solo, so of course he misses out group content. You say Ghazni is projecting his playstyle on others. Don't soloers force their playstyle on others by demanding more and more solo content and crying about group content that is "too time consuming to take part of".
As much as i like lotro but it does lack huge raids for me - at least from time to time i would have loved to be part of a 80+ man army giving mordor a hard time. And the number of 6 man instances is pretty small too if you ask me. Yes 80+ people raids are possible without crashing modern servers or computers.
The mistake made in the past was, that the only way to get top gear was by raiding. On the other hand, top gear was only needed for raiding more item intense raids. Why any solo player feels left out of something that he doesnt need for their playstyle is also a strange phenomenon.
EQ was a horrible excuse for a game and continues that tradition. EQ isn't a game it is an endless time sink for people with no life outside the game world. Anyone else will not be able to keep up with the endless expansions and item farming that require countless hours. All of this to participate in the lag fest of greed that is called an EQ raid.
LOTRO is a high quality game that doesn't demand your entire life to compete.
Firstly, I didn't advocate removing group content. I never have. Raids get smaller and smaller because graphics get better and files get larger and LAG gets worse. I've been in 100+ man raids. I led them in DAoC for two years. Lag sucks. LotRO is a resource hog with a memory leak they can't seem to totally snuff out. I chug in the PvP battles of 24 vs. 24 on the bare minimal settings, though I can run through the game world on the max just fine.
Also, it isn't always a solo player's choice; another unreasonable assumption. A lot of people just plain don't have the time to sit at their computer for 6-8 hours for virtual prizes. Their jobs or their families have to take priority. LotRO especially has drawn that crowd in large numbers.
I've always asked for equivalent alternatives. Give me an alternate route that I can take to get some equally spiffy stuff. Give me a time sink that I can spread out over a few weeks or months, a challenge I can chip away at a couple of hours here an there. And Turbine has been really great about doing that. Don't want to raid the Rift? Now you can (finally) PvP for sweet gear. PvP isn't your speed? Stock pile those hides and craft your little heart out. Not a crafty kind of person? Then just collect resources for sale, charge for Hunter-taxi ports, farm beryl shards, or play the AH to make your fortune so you can buy the crafted stuff.
Players are asking for more alternatives. They are asking that the devs give players more choices. Let me do a long quest chain that is instanced and solo-only which can be done in small steps over the course of a month or two on my weekends. Don't always gate the best rewards behind group quests, that's a lazy way to make content "difficult" and time-consuming. That's the way everyone else does it, innovate FFS. There are other ways to put in hoops for a player to jump through to 'earn' the good stuff, not just raiding and grouping.
And "needing" ooobar gear is BS in LotRO. There are some gear-centric games in which the argument could be raised. I've played them, this isn't those games. My husband and I PvP and raid without maxed out gear just fine. Further, almost all players want nice gear. Some people want the stats, some people like the sense of accomplishment, some people just want the look. With the new outfit system in, the latter argument is especially valid.
Raiders and PvPers want gear for an 'edge' of some sort. That reason isn't any more important than the guy that wants gear that makes him look like a badass even when he's just strolling through the Pony. Everyone wants phat lootz. It's not a strange phenomenon, it's an MMO.
If that isn't enough, then my point comes down to: why does any raider feel put out that someone else gets their own cool stuff through another means? It doesn't diminish your own work, you've still got the unique raiding set or the unique group quest rewards that are BoA and can't be had any other way. The bonuses don't change based on how many sets of crafted gear are currently equipped on the server.
You won't catch me arguing that devs should eliminate group or raid rewards, or that anyone who enjoys those playstyles "has no business" playing the same game I am. The furthest I'm willing to go on that issue is it's good to know the game your playing. I wouldn't fire off angry missives at EA Mythic for focusing on PvP in WAR. But neither do I think they should deliberately chase away PvE players.
Previous played: SWG (pre-NGE), DAoC, CoH, Anarchy Online, DDO, Champions Online Beta, LOTRO, GW2, SWTOR
This is completely wrong. Graphics are not communicated during playing and have nothing to do with LAG they are on your hard drive. All that is managed by the servers are vectors and actions. Even chatting is bypassed in modern MMO's on different servers.
To tell you the truth, compared to DAoC there is LESS communication because there is no collision check - player models run through each other like ghosts. The combat actions are probably easier to handle too, because the fights are a little slower and the variety of actions and possible reactions is smaller.
These two facts in mind plus the knowledge that a modern computer is 8-25 times faster, has 20 - 40 times the graphic power and all the game supporting software has been optimised for years now make it look silly that a game claims it can't cope with more than 24 players in an instance.
Keep in mind: On my box of LOTRO stands that i need a broadband internet connection, while DAoC was designed for 56k dial up. So we are 56k/s vs. 768k/s and most people probably have better than 768k/s by now.
On a side note: I was talking about epic raids with 100+ not PvP with 200+ which again makes it much easier to handle.
Havent read the rest of your post but i hope it is more accurate than this paragraph.
100+ people raids do not have to take 6-8 houers. I have job+family+house too but still miss the POSSIBILITY or even the knowledge that bigger things happen in middle earth. It does not set me under preasure or depress me if i can not attend all of the epic stuff but it would add a great deal to the atmosphere to know that its there.
Oh i think now i understand you a little better. So all you do is play for gear? Seeking alternatives to gain better gear? Crafting, Solo Play, Group play, farming, raiding - you all only do it for better "Spiffy Stuff"? And if your playstyle is not rewarded with gear the game is crap?
Sorry but i was talking about the EPIC atmosphere of mass raids. The thrill you have when in the heat of battle things go wrong and your group or you alone manage to make the difference. I have enjoyed DAoC for the massive feeling of the few mass raids. I can tell you about heroic battles but i can not tell you about gear because i forgot about it.
So while you look for alternatives to get gear, i look for alternatives t o have fun.
And this "alternative" to have FUN is missing in lotro. Mass raids.