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Why are there not more skill based games?
Catizone
Member Posts: 233
Class and level based games are first generation. Why do these idiotic studios keep pumping them out year after year after year? If you've ever played Asheron's call 1 in it's golden years you'll know how awesome it was and it was a skill based game.. It had levels but they meant nothing other than giving a general indication of how long you've played etc.. Everything relied on your characters skills and how much exp was in each skill. Skill based games give the ultimate amount of freedom when it comes to player customization. And everyone knows people like freedom.
No?
Imagine WoW as a skill based game. Would it not be better?
Comments
Mainly because people are comfortable with what they know. If everyone was comfortable with change, then there'd be brand new innovations every week.
I personally agree, and am watching Earthrise very closely. I think the use of Levels is dated, seperates players and it outdates content/player areas far too quickly. With skill based game play, if done right, can add a replayability value that far exceeds anything out there today. Add some sandbox elements for taste (the more time and effort you put into a game, the less likely you are to leave it) and I think you not only have a success on your hands, but will have a game that has much more longevity than a level based game.
But mine is just one opinion.
I'am not talking about actual player skill like in a FPS game.
for example in AC1's case.... There were a set of main statistics like quickness for example. If you placed exp directly into Quickness it also raised a secondary Run skill which made you faster... Raising quickness also made you better at specific weapons such as Daggers.. It system like this just provides so much more variation than a stupid static class system.
The reason is simple, everyone clamors for pvp and it is distinctly harder to balance a skill system based game verses a rigid class based game. Instead of balancing class against class for pvp, they have to balance skill verses skill and there are usually a lot more skills in the game than usual classes.
So that brings us to the reason, developers are basically lazy, they don't want to put in all that work balancing the skills for pve and pvp.
I'd take a updated UO, AC1 or SWG over any of these current games in a heartbeat. All were skill based games. UO was EQized, SWG destroyed and AC1 never updated(AC2 was a EQ rigid class system). I have yet to come close to the fun I had in these original games in any of the current offerings.
Developers grew up in an age when D&D was a 'badge'.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Because the new generation of players only want instant gratification, and with a skill based system you actually have to play for a long while to earn that skill in using that weapon or armor!
In gear based games you just grab an item and go then bunny hop to success!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Ultima Online was skill based an had no levels. it was a badass game back in the day. I wouldent mind a skill based game again.
And actually the skill based games i played SWG pre CU and UO you can max out the skills faster then most level based games you could max levels.
So thats not a valid point.
Reason developers make level based game is because the execs feel this will make the most successful games .Look at mmorpg history EQ1 was top for ages and was level based.WoW took over level based too.
Personally i like the freedom of skill based .Only sad part is soon everyone finds that killer template and everyone uses it .So you have a server of 80% mage/tank or something.
I think most games are all skill based. Acheron's Call is on skill tree allowed you to use exp to select your class and train the skill in the skill tree.
WOW is a class skill tree game, you use exp to level up your skill or train new skill.
Shaiya, Last Chaos both F2P also based on class skill tree and use exp to buy. One exp for both player's level and skill level.
LOTRO has separated the skill into traits as well required you to kill a number of mob to gain the trait,
Most F2P are all skill based games, the skill are separate from player's level which means there are two type of exp, player's level exp and skill level exp. You kill mob to gain player's level exp but you have to use your skill to attack to gain skill exp.
Pirate of Caribbean Online also separate player's level and skill level. You have to use skill to gain skill exp.
Game designed to separate player's level and skill level usually required heavy grinds. Unlike WOW planned to release their next expansion pack, the other F2P limited each class performance instead of integrate the other classes as one for player. It means that if you play only one class to the max level but you may still weak enough, unless you level up the other classes as well.
Those games can simply add new skill to continue the game's life as thier expansion, LOTRO also playing on trait, they added new trait but they don't give you more slot to use more traits.
In my opinion, if you've seen a game separated player's level and skill level into two different type of exp, then there might be more other type of exp in the game such as crafting exp ...etc. Usually, this type of game is very limited to develope into future because it's small scale. Even they do added new content but it is absolutely no fun in it. This kind of game needs expansion pack to renew. They have shorter life time.
Actually, the first generation of MMO's heavily favored "skill based" games. It was the 2nd generation (EQ, DAOC, Lineage 1) that firmly planted the Level based model in the gaming world. And players loved it.
I think a lot of players enjoy the "role-playing" aspects of being a certain class, and learning to take advantage of its pre-build skills and overcoming its shortcomings. They enjoy approaching the games content in different ways based on said classes.
In an open skill game, many players are a bit lost and don't feel the same satisfaction as they try to figure out what the best build might be, and not nerf their character.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think skill is most defined in guildwars pvp, You never really know what the other person has set up for there build which the player has total control of, and they dont know yours either, and picking from 100's of spells, armor combo's that you build to suit your skill build the pvp boils down to you and knowing what spells do what, and how to use the spells, learning what works and what doesnt, and what can surprise the other person, and i would like to add skill based games seem to only go well with pvp type games, when i do not pvp in the guildwars series I have a fairly stable setup i use for the pve questing part of guildwars which is ironically set up for pve and never really changes much unless i find a spell i like more than one im using for pve, but for pvp i am constantly changing stuff around for my heros and for myself as you have TOTAL control of spells, weapons, skillpoint rearangement, i would suggest peeps that like to dabble in skill based pvp with the option to pve seperatly to give guildwars a try, they did it right in my opinion.
playing eq2 and two worlds
I'm pretty sure the reason is balance. It's a major beast to balance a character skill-based game.
For years, the Tank Mage in UO was the dominant template...it was simply more powerful than any other type of combination of skills. It took a lot of nerfs, and a lot of upset players, to provide a degree of variety and choice to the game so that there wasn't only one winning set of skills to be a competitor.
I think developers look at that model and envision the same learning curve, modifications, upset players, and turmoil and instead opt for the known quantity/quality of classes and levels.
I have yet to see a skillbased game that convinces me. They are flat out boring. You can get this skill or that skill, but since its all skillbased, you cannot make real trades like in a classbased game.
For example, playing a Monk in Elder Scrolls is impossible. You cannot learn how to fight unarmed and you cannot use monk armor (i.e. monk robes) instead of standard armor. Playing a monk just means you will play an inferior character, and there is nothing you can do, because the skillbased system is just as classbased as any other game - except there is only one class.
Or damage spells, simply in general. If you have classes, its no problem to make a class that gets a damage spell thats much more mana friendly than what real mages get, just as long as the class getting it has a much smaller Mana pool than real mages and suffers from several limitations when it comes to using these spells. Thats what Tyrants in Lineage 2 got. Such abilities would be impossible in a skillbased game.
Most drastic example is Guild Wars, though. In this most limited approach thinkable of, you really can design your very own class from hundreds of abilities, with very few limitations. And since you can only have 8 abilities total at any moment, you can have really interesting abilities that would be far too unbalanced in more "open" systems.
What are you talking about ? Guild Wars is completely classbased. There is no skill at all !
Skillbased, thats stuff like Eve Online or Elder Scrolls.
Quite on the contrary, in my experience.
In a game like Elder Scrolls, where you can max all skills, everyone plays one and the same class - Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard.
Even if you take the ES system and would implement, like, anything that gives any balance, what would be the result ? Players could choose between Fighter, Rogue, Cleric or Wizard. And maybe with a bit phantasy and tolerance, Ranger and Paladin and some other variants. But there wont be much more. And all these characters would be much less varied and interesting to play than their D&D counterparts, simply because the system is much simpler and allows much less customization.
While a system like GW, where you can design your own class... thats IMHO really cool.
There has always been Hand to hand skills in the Elder Scrolls series, and i have an orc monk in both TES 3 AND 4.
What you are saying is false for Elder Scrolls, its a very bad example because skill based system can easily work on single plyaer games, its hard to get them to work with an mmo, especially seeing as no one tries them.
-Jive
Did someone try to say that WoW was a skill-based game? WoW is the very epitomy of level-based and class system gaming.
I believe what the OP meant was why aren't there more sandbox games out?
The answer to that is simple in 2 parts:
1.) Developers are lazy.
2.) People pay lots of money right now to play games that are level-based, so why change it?
As long as games like WoW have large playerbases we won't see much advancement in the industry. So, in fact, the people to blame are the players, because they will willingly pay to play crap.
Tecmo Bowl.
Actually wrong. There was a superflous hand to hand skill in that game. It was far inferior to the other skills, because you only reduced the opponents endurance at first, instead of dealing real damage immediately. I leveled it for fun in Morrowind, but except that my character was totally invincible anyway at that point (had everything else to 100 and best equipment etc), so it didnt hurt me, it wasnt worth it at all. It was nothing but far inferior to the other weapon skills.
And in Oblivion, there wasnt even anymore an unarmored skill ... not that that one was that useful in Morrowind, anyway. You still got hit for full damage even with maxed unarmored skill, there.
Darkfall
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I hear this 'balancing' issue come up every time people debate class vs. skill systems and it's a load of rubbish. In a good skill based system there is no balancing required as long as every attack skill has an equivalent counter skill. For example any melee attack can be countered by a shield block, a perry, a riposte or even a well timed dodge. In this way all balancing is done by the individual player and not the developer. This makes skill based systems way easier on the developer than class based systems that require constant tweaks to keep the classes balanced and fair. If you end up with a poorly balanced character in a skill based game it's your own fault and not the fault of the developer or the game.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
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Because in the end skill based games are harder to balance and don't really offer any real benefits over class based systems.
From UO to AC and SWG, every skill based game still has classes, but the players define them after much trial and error instead of the developer doing it in a controlled way 1st. The trickle down effect when balancing skills is disasterous unlike classes that are self contained. One little change in a skill system effects EVERYONE and every combination of skills. A little change in a class only effects the class for the most part. Once the players figure out these templates of skills which you might as well call a class, very few are viable(best) making your choices very limited instead of wide open like you'd imagine. Of course if you want to be gimped its as wide open as you want, but being inferior to everyone else isn't exactly fun or a prefered way to play. A player's role is also defined so other players know right away what you're about instead of guessing. So in the end, classes actually offer more options and better balance.
Many people look back with rosy glasses at how wide open and free skill based MMOs were. In reality they were far more limited, exploited heavily and never had any sense of balance or fairness. The PvE in these games was also VERY simplistic with little to know strategy needed. Bring more numbers and you won. The PvP was ripe with exploiting forcing people use just a couple of templates just to compete. Theres a good reason developers choose classes over just skills...for the vast majority its just better and more fun.
There will always be proponents for skill based systems but they are just too few and no developer is going to bank on such a fickle and tiny minority. SKill systems aren't BAD. They're just a whole lot more trouble than they're worth on the programming end. On paper it sounds rosey. In reality, skill system are an ever changing mess.
How does "every attack skill" have "an equivalent counter skill?"
Balancing.
No developer has ever gotten it right on release, it is impossible to do so since players as a whole are far more clever than developers can ever anticipate. Players find the unique combinations that developers did not forsee.
Thus...nerfs. Thus, upset players. This cycle goes on and on until it becomes stable...and that takes a long time.
The class balance is definitely falls on developer's responsibility. In most games, they always test the mob with melee class than range classes such as wizzard, mage, soccerer or priest etc. In the end, those light armor class became too weak and easy to get hurt, so all developers just increased their ability, otherwise, who is going to play a easy dying class. That's why nearly all wizzards or mage etc are very strong in most of the game.
If developer used wizzard or mage to model the mob then the game could be more balanced. And the skill could be more creative between class to class.
Some games differentiate player's ability by levels and skills, then same level players nearly have exactly same ability because they maxed their skills, and then the armors and weapons do the last win or lose decesion.
Most games also use buff to gain more health to make players a bit stronger, but it is actually not helpful.
I think the best is class have counter skill, ie, wizzard must use counter skill to reduce damage taken from melee class and melee class must use magic protection. Otherwise, in most PVP/dual/PK, the battle ending in few seconds, I don't think it is so fun to PVP for a fight finish within 10 seconds. Only when a high level PK a low level.
Or there is still no good PVP system integrated in the game. I think PVP may need to trigger PVP mode, once you click certain key to attack another player then both players enter into PVP mode, and there should have PVP combat system.
It might be easier to balance PVP with PVP combat system because the game can easily add or reduce certain trait or penalty whenever the PVP initiated.
Balance is overrated.. The most fun games were the ones that were not very balanced..
Gotta love those Pkers=)
2 reasons
1) it is easier to make sure people don't make crap characters.
2) Level based character creation allows for level based mobs. This allows the developers to give content that can precisely match characters abilities. Otherwise a decent consideration system and well matched content becomes extremely hard or next to impossible.
Having balanced content is a big plus. No skill based game has ever had decent content. Its all been in the form of PvP or RPing. PvE content has been generally non existant. Attempting to create meaningful and challenging content without any way to know how your players will be equiped is basically impossible. Do you take into consideration EVERY combination of skills or do you tailor the content to a specific set of skills? Sounds like a headache. You can do it, but it'll always be too easy or too hard with not much wiggle room, which will of course force players to choose skill templates to easily trivialize different encounters, which would of course be unfair and unbalanced.
blow off the whole skill based system because its hard to balance is downright BS. name me one class based game that is balanced completely.
Balance is a myth .