While I think that some of the OPs examples are a bit on the extreme side (MMOs that are unplayable due to bugs, or do offer extremely poor performance usually sell much less in the longer run), I do agree with the general consensus that many players generally accept a lower standard as far as polishing goes, when dishing out money for early reservation tickets for blockbuster MMOs.
as an example that many of us lived thru -- hyjal server (for wow) was nigh near unplayable for the first 6 months. you'd have about half the time it was up and not too laggy, and half the time where you just couldn't do anything. combine that with the falling thru the boats and all the other bugs, AND with the lack of battlegrounds and other features which were either on the box or had been promised by blizzard to be a part of the retail edition.
why DO we accept a lower standard?
if you're a player that goes ahead and pays for the subpar games -- why? for the subpar performance -- why?
what other form of entertainment do you have, which you pay a recurring charge, and you smile and grin and go "oh give them time and it'll improve"?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
damian7, judging by the number of your posts, I have to say that you don't do much else then talk about pretty much pointless stuff on mmorpg.com
I do agree with you to some extent, but try making a bugless game (bigger one - not tetris). If you feel that it's not worth giving money to play MMOs (agree with you here as well, for the most MMOs) then just don't. Do something else, there are so many more interesting things to do in life than to play MMOs...
Enjoy.
your post seems to have nothing to do with this thread.
would you care to answer some of the questions i posed?
i would like to understand why so many (seemingly millions, if not only hundreds of thousands), readily hand out a monthly sub AND defend these games.
or, why people are so quick to go "oh you couldn't do it". no, but i also can't perform heart or brain surgery. if a doctor screwed up one of those operations, would you make the same argument of "oh you couldn't do it" or would you be more like "wtf".
you'd probably be 'wtf'. why? because that person is trained to do that job and receives quite a bit of compensation for doing said job.
tens of millions of dollars, half a decade (maybe only 4 years, maybe 6 or 7 years) of time, a team of people who HAVE designed games before --- yet, we should be patient and understanding and give them our support (both on forums/verbally and with a monthly sub fee)... why?
would you go to mcdonalds, order a cheeseburger, only to be given half a pack of fries, then be fussed at by other customers that you should eat your fries and stfu? would you take that? would you return to that mcdonalds? would you think it was full of idiots (both employees AND customers)?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
..... so... why do you throw away money and tell gaming companies, "hey, give us whatever crap-filled game you want, i WILL support you"... ?
It’s called PC gaming. Different hardware, different software running in the background. Mathematically impossibly to test every possible configuration. Not to mention a wide range or graphic, memory, processor speed and sound capabilities.
If you want a bug free experience you are going to have to play a console. That’s just the way is. I thought that was common knowledge?
let's try something which i thought was common knowledge...
does every mmo out there have crashes to desktop and tons of bugs (to where it's really NOT enjoyable to play)?
no
they don't.
a few bugs here and there, perhaps something along the lines of a certain power for one class that doesn't work quite right, or some costume/armor clipping in the art, compared to falling thru boats/buildings/the world and having to die, compared to tons of lag and extremely low frame rates and THESE problems due to memory leaks, bad programming and other things that don't care what sort of computer you use.
you honestly can not distinguish between what i am speaking of and the example you give?
honestly?
you're not able to distinguish betwen them?
i'm sorry that your post makes it seem you are unable to distinguish between them. i truly am.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
damian7 - your analogy comparing MMOs to cable television is one of the worst ever.
A better analogy would be a TV show that is unfinished yet broadcast anyway.
All video games are very complicated(MMOs especially) so eliminating all the bugs is impossible. It's quite obvious you have zero knowledge of video game design.
The more unfinished a MMO is at release to less money the company has at the time. Sigil ran completely out of money so was forced to release Vanguard as is or go under(which happened anyway).
If a MMO is unsatisfactorily unfinished at release I will not play it, I suggest you do the same and stop making lame analogies.
In my opinion, this thread is nothing about games but the way you want to be able to choose to spend your money wisely as you wish. For example, I am looking for a online game to play then I bought Pirates of Burning Sea but the game glitches everywhere, so you can say I just threw my money to make SOE stronger because people paid the game but their servers are light load. It's how the game distributor ripping money from the market. The only thing we can do is go through all the reviews and make your own judgements before you buy.
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
how many months do you continue to play under THOSE conditions until you go "what the, maybe if/when they get their act together i might come back"?
i do go on the assumption that no one SHOULD be addicted to having to play a game, or that MMOs are the only entertainment an individual has. as such, i see many alternatives (even to online/pc/console games), sports, tv, movies, gf/bf/spouse, church, school activities, whatever.
going on the understanding that no one is addicted and HAS to play an MMO...
how long, and why, would you pay a monthly sub to support people who have delivered a half-finished game to you, with the intention of they'll get it fixed when they get it fixed INSTEAD of having it nice and playable BEFORE it was released into retail?
it seems that there's not really a timeframe on that for most of us. how many people put up with months and months of horrid gaming when WoW was first released?
i did, only because it was finally an online game the wife would play. nowadays, we buy one box and see how it looks and plays and how buggy it is. if it's bug-riddled; odds are we don't try it again. we MIGHT, if a few of our friends bring it up or start playing down the road and they're enjoying it. but, more often, we don't.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Dont people pay because it is fun for them? Bottom line? If a movie stutters in my theater and doesnt in yours, can the movie be more fun for you than for me, is it just not fun? If I a fan of a bad sports team, I still cheer for 'em win, lose or draw, because I enjoy that. MMO's are exactly the same. Look, I dont care what they promise, I care about what they deliver. If they leave out 20% of what they promise, but I still enjoy what's left, then I'm not wasting money, because I'm still enjoying what I play. If you specifically come to a game based on a promise of something, and it get's left out, sure you have reason to be upset, and if you spend money still, then maybe you are wasting your coin. What do you care if someone else enjoys something, and what they spend their money on. Doesnt everyone have the ability to decide for themselves what they enjoy and have fun with?
i'll go back to the wow example -- there were horrid lag issues, blizzard admitted it was their problem and their fault.
reasonable people would expect the onus to be on the part of the game company to make games available to a wide audience, and if they release a bare minimum spec for a game to be played - - it should be playable with those bare minimum specs.
the last part of it -- every person that sits there for 6 months to a year, steadily paying a monthly sub and telling devs that it's ok, we know you're trying hard. that's yet another dev team and another gaming company that, rightfully, believes there are idiots in the world that will pay you indefinitely for a half-finished project and THANK YOU for it.
now, does that mean that the next game will be of a higher standard, better quality, or more than half-way finished?
why should they? they just ran a halfway thrown together game for months/years and had people thanking them for it. why in the world would they put forth the effort to make certain that the NEXT game they release is beautiful and perfect?
am i really asking something that is a foreign concept to many people out there?
why give your support to a game company that didn't have the decency to, once they realized their game was incomplete/having issues (and a lot of times game companies DO realize it's their problem and only players blame other players computers, as we've seen in this thread), they don't go ahead and say -- hey, here's a big discount, or free month, since we're essentially getting free beta testing from all you players.
a free day for a month of my having a hard time even trying to play a game, or even a game that's fairly lacking in content and boring shortly after starting -- that's not really much of an enticement for a reasonable person to continue playing, is it? much less if the company gives no enticement.
so, why do we do it?
are we all addictive personalities that just HAVE to be online playing something?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
The whole question of throwing money away is totally subjective and pointless. You can ask and banter away as to the futility of it, but you have to tell yourself this hard, sober truth...It isn't your money to throw away, you didn't get it, work for it, nor have any control over it. As a capitalistic society, throwing money around is the core of its ideology. Unfortunate truth, and logic seldom dictates how it's spent. I understand your complaint, though technical and lag issues are rather normal in this day and age because of the different systems and networks out there, as some have stated before me. It isn't ethereal, it's a real problem. If a company spends 30M on a game, do you really think they'd not want it to work properly on those levels? Content and gameplay is another matter altogether, that is all subjective...what one likes another will assuredly dislike. No game can cater to all tastes, so you need to pick and choose what about each game you enjoy and decide whether or not to invest time and money into it. As for the analogies, although I see your point on the matter, they really aren't apt in comparison. The games are new, not established like most of your examples of what the problem would be. So, new problems can't be looked at like the same way. If they were all based the same way, we'd be playing the same game all the time, just with different looking toons and environments. Now THAT would be a crime to constantly pay for. In short, whether anyone wishes to understand before condemning anything, the last question to ask yourself should always be...Bottom line, how does this really affect me? Only then can you justify, to yourself, the actions you take toward that answer. Back to my hermit cave to ponder the question of which is better, McD or BK...oh the futility of it all!!!
when vonage first came out, would you have gotten (and kept) it, if you had lots of static and dropped calls?
if every time you order fast food, the order is wrong, the food is nasty, or they overcharge you and won't refund your money.. would you keep returning to that fast good place?
i didn't think the comparisons i made would be that hard to understand, or were that bad. i honestly did assume a certain level of person reading/replying to posts, who would be able to even draw their own analogies of what goes on in MMOs.
if you don't do it with other forms of entertainment and/or services, why on MMOs.
and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.
so yes, there is a pretty plain cause-effect which does have a direct impact on the playing experience of everyone.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
For me, it boils down to the ideology factor I mentioned before. If I really like the concepts involved in the current state of the game (I don't play for "potential"), I will pay, play, recruit, and defend. One of my beliefs about life in general is that creativity and originality are important, and I extend this belief to MMOs.
Stability and polish is not the only scale of standards a thing can be judged upon, nor is it the scale I choose to use.
An MMO that rates high in your standards may rate low in my standards, because we're not dealing with the same type of standards.
Regardless of anything else my subscription dollars may be saying, the message I try to send with them is "make more unique games, more mature games, more crafting-centric games, more complex games."
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
try and make an mmo yourself (or any pc game for that fact) thats runs flawlesly on rlease
you should try and perform open heart surgery for yourself and see if the patient has a full recovery and long life.
makes about as much sense as what you just told me.
if you honestly believe a team of experienced game developers, with tens of millions of dollars, years of time to make a new game, and thousands of free closed beta testers, is ONLY capable of delivering a halfway-finished game (be it content, technical, whatever); then, you have completely bought into the lies they've been selling us.
keep in mind, this is with them releasing a game AFTER having pushed it back 3 months, 3 months, 2 months and maybe another couple of months on top of that, from their original release date. a lot of these have closed betas (with all those nonpaid free beta tester hours) that go on for quite a long time.
so, how about that open heart surgery?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Sorry, but your post completely goes over my head. The games I play do NOT stutter or crash on me. I haven't even run into any major bugs on them. What kind of system are you running on?
Besides, I think that in some cases you can trace buggy games back to the player. Have you ever entered a closed beta with the intention to REALLY test the game and report the bugs rather than get a 'free' look at it? Closed Beta is an integral part of the testing plan of most every thing. I remember when Windows had new releases that were 'closed beta' tested. The people getting the beta version didn't get paid to test it and didn't expect to.
damian7 - your analogy comparing MMOs to cable television is one of the worst ever. A better analogy would be a TV show that is unfinished yet broadcast anyway. All video games are very complicated(MMOs especially) so eliminating all the bugs is impossible. It's quite obvious you have zero knowledge of video game design. The more unfinished a MMO is at release to less money the company has at the time. Sigil ran completely out of money so was forced to release Vanguard as is or go under(which happened anyway). If a MMO is unsatisfactorily unfinished at release I will not play it, I suggest you do the same and stop making lame analogies.
yet again, a tangent that's not really on topic in this thread.
how many years of a game being played, should be the norm, for someone to be able to sit down and PLAY and enjoy the game... without having to worry about lag, d/c, desktop crash, bugs where you fall thru the world?
how many years of retail should it be?
i mean, i have zero knowledge of game design, yet i do see a number of MMOs out there where i can actually play the game and not be frustrated with load times, d/cs and what have you. or not be totally bored with the lack of content, or because everything is a "go kill 100 of these bugs" mission/quest.
i'm sorry if i offended you because you own stock in a particular company that is about to release a game.
if you're lashing out because the poor devs of so many games are under so much pressure to deliver a fun game, after ONLY having half a decade to develop it, ONLY having 300,000 applicants from which to choose their non-paid closed beta testers (whom they'll use for 6 months to a year and a half), ONLY having a budget of $4 MILLION/year with which to create a game - then i have no understanding of where you are coming from.
players themselves should not accept games that are subpar. honestly, it seems like MMOs are the only area of entertainment where we accept this.
oh, and if you have a better analogy, please give it; if you're incapable of understanding where any of the analogies were going, i'm sorry, i can not help you there.
so, why do we pay to play games that aren't up to snuff; but, we'll sure as heck stop watching a tv show, change phone providers, or even find a new sporting team to cheer for -- if those don't perform as we desire them?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
In my opinion, this thread is nothing about games but the way you want to be able to choose to spend your money wisely as you wish. For example, I am looking for a online game to play then I bought Pirates of Burning Sea but the game glitches everywhere, so you can say I just threw my money to make SOE stronger because people paid the game but their servers are light load. It's how the game distributor ripping money from the market. The only thing we can do is go through all the reviews and make your own judgements before you buy.
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
If you played the 30 period and experienced all those things you didn't like, AND you read somewhere the company 'fessed up' as you put it that the problem was on their side, then the only only person to blame for paying to play it after that...is you.
You went in the decision knowing full well the potential for danger but you risked it anyway.
You can blame the company for not bringing out something polished, sure, and you'd be right...but if you use your example, you're the sucker for staying.
-and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.- As stated by yourself.
As if you can actually have an impact on what these people think?! Are you actually that self-absorbed to think they care what one person thinks. If you like something, no matter what it is or state it's in, do YOU care what others say?
You want to blame the "fanbois" and the ppl that ACTUALLY like the game because you were disappointed in something with it? You're not the only one, many aren't gonna play it for the same reasons you posted.
The thing is, you aren't a judge in this...you can complain, protest, and rant all you want, but if enough ppl want to give their money to something they think is worth it...you don't have a leg to stand on, my friend.
The game will run its due course and it will either strive or fail..
I suggest you either make petitions and/or create a website for this rant if you want real change but try not to ram your opinions so forcefully down people's throat that don't see it your way.
Either way, It doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'll play what I want, how I want, with the knowledge that I have only myself to blame if I give money to something that isn't perfect. If we all did that, maybe games would come out better and more polished...but guess what? It'll never happen...get used to it, it's a little thing called LIFE!
For me, it boils down to the ideology factor I mentioned before. If I really like the concepts involved in the current state of the game (I don't play for "potential"), I will pay, play, recruit, and defend. One of my beliefs about life in general is that creativity and originality are important, and I extend this belief to MMOs. Stability and polish is not the only scale of standards a thing can be judged upon, nor is it the scale I choose to use. An MMO that rates high in your standards may rate low in my standards, because we're not dealing with the same type of standards. Regardless of anything else my subscription dollars may be saying, the message I try to send with them is "make more unique games, more mature games, more crafting-centric games, more complex games."
i can understand that. i know people that'll play eve online, or 'city of' because they like the genre, they like where they see the games going, etc.
i also can understand how you'd continue to play one of those games, in which you're enjoying the content, even if the service itself is lacking (d/cs, laggy, etc).
but why do we do that even?
if a game has great content that we love, but (and the game company admits this is their fault) it is laggy, it has bugs that cause you to die, or your computer to lock up and you have to reboot, or other annoying things such as that -- why do we continue to pay for the service?
do we accept either bad technical support (for lack of a better term), or low quality content from any other form of entertainment?
console games, console games on the net, any type of tv/radio programming which we have to pay for, sporting events, etc.
as i've said, i know people that will go quite ballistic if the power would DARE to go out at a crucial point in a football game.
supporting a small company who actually listens to their playerbase (not just the vocal minority), and works with their players in producing a quality gaming experience... that is one thing.
that is not the case in the majority of instances we see. we see a company who invested millions, just made millions off the box sales, and are making millions every month off of subs; and they are quite happy to see all the people going, "hey, i love your game, here's my money, and don't worry too much about all the glitches and lag, i understand and will keep giving you money."
yet, would any of us turn to the phone/cable/sports/whatever other form of entertainment industry, and tell them the same? if not, why not? computer games are so much harder than all the computer-graphics, environmental factors, tempermental actors and guilds, etc etc that movies/tv shows have to deal with? they're so much harder than a team of football players having to practice constantly and hope that they're better than the other teams doing the same as they? they're more complicated than continually integrating the mixed technologies involved in telephony?
how many different types of routers, computers, lans, wans are out there, and yet we expect our internet provider to be able to give us service no matter what sort of computer equipment we have at our home, correct? we also expect that service to be up, available, and lag-free 24/7. ISPs don't really provide content; but MMOs do, and we expect the same from an MMO.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
In my opinion, this thread is nothing about games but the way you want to be able to choose to spend your money wisely as you wish. For example, I am looking for a online game to play then I bought Pirates of Burning Sea but the game glitches everywhere, so you can say I just threw my money to make SOE stronger because people paid the game but their servers are light load. It's how the game distributor ripping money from the market. The only thing we can do is go through all the reviews and make your own judgements before you buy.
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
If you played the 30 period and experienced all those things you didn't like, AND you read somewhere the company 'fessed up' as you put it that the problem was on their side, then the only only person to blame for paying to play it after that...is you.
You went in the decision knowing full well the potential for danger but you risked it anyway.
You can blame the company for not bringing out something polished, sure, and you'd be right...but if you use your example, you're the sucker for staying.
-and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.- As stated by yourself.
As if you can actually have an impact on what these people think?! Are you actually that self-absorbed to think they care what one person thinks. If you like something, no matter what it is or state it's in, do YOU care what others say?
You want to blame the "fanbois" and the ppl that ACTUALLY like the game because you were disappointed in something with it? You're not the only one, many aren't gonna play it for the same reasons you posted.
The thing is, you aren't a judge in this...you can complain, protest, and rant all you want, but if enough ppl want to give their money to something they think is worth it...you don't have a leg to stand on, my friend.
The game will run its due course and it will either strive or fail..
I suggest you either make petitions and/or create a website for this rant if you want real change but try not to ram your opinions so forcefully down people's throat that don't see it your way.
Either way, It doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'll play what I want, how I want, with the knowledge that I have only myself to blame if I give money to something that isn't perfect. If we all did that, maybe games would come out better and more polished...but guess what? It'll never happen...get used to it, it's a little thing called LIFE!
i was silly enough to think that people would actually try to answer the questions.
i mean, for the most part, this thread is like the quoted... ramblings at me, which have nothing to do with this topic or the questions i posed.
i'm not sure how asking people why they pay for a subpar experience and why they're accepting of a subpar experience but ONLY when it comes to MMOs... how THAT is my forcing anything down anyone's throats. but i guess if you just make up words and reply to your made-up words, instead of my questions, i guess i could understand someone coming to that conclusion THAT way.
how many people accept subpar quality from any other service for which they pay? that's part of the questions i'm asking.
i am truly sorry that you were unable to understand that and instead decided to flame. do you have an mmo that's horrible, yet you continue to pay to play it and i offended you?
you don't have an opinion which is on topic for this thread, but you just want to flame. gotcha. are you sure you can't just answer the questions and contribute, instead of being drama'd out?
i actually re-read that post, because i thought i had mis-read it, and i laughed again.
how many people believe they HAVE to accept subpar games, and that is the reason they go ahead and pay for them? they've grown accustomed to the "that's how it is" mentality that the gaming companies push on them. not everyone wants to goose-step to that drum, and that is very much life. a lot of people may accept a lesser quality if they honestly believe that is all they CAN expect, or that is all they're entitled to get for their money.
you can attempt to force people to believe your tirade, friend; but no one has to. i'm asking questions to try to get people thinking WHY they do a thing. how many people would be very happy with just 3 television stations if that is all they believed they could get? oh, this is just how it's always been, we just have these 3 channels, i guess it'd be nice if we could have more channels and different programs, but it's always been this way and it's just how it is.
but then someone showed them they could get 20 different sports channels (for a sports fanatic, substitute 20 of whatever kind of channels/broadcasting you desire) and they were like "oh wow, i could've been having all this... all this time?????
have we been conditioned to thinking that we just have to accept what's half-done and thrown at us, and just deal with it? when we look and see so many other projects done so much better. shouldn't we hold our beloved MMOs to a higher standard than just "deal with whatever crap is there, it'll get better eventually".
we certainly don't accept less elsewhere, do we?
so maybe we could stick with the words of this thread, instead of made-up words created by disembodied voices?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Ok, here's my two cent. I dont pay money to crap games or crap developers. i.e. poor customer service... buggie game that never gets fixed yet always has an update but only to the Item Mall/Cash Shop (whatever you want to kall it) that to me is just scamming or a 'get rich quick scheme' throw in some art work, models and rebuild "a grind game" like everyone else does then add everything a player would actually need in the item mall knowing at least 3/5 of the people will have to buy it.. that and wait for your Gold Sellers.
Then you sitting on a cash cow, some people cant help but spend money on games like that.. its like Gambling to a person who cant stop gambling, least thats what I've notice.
But some games I'd be more then happy to spend money on to "help the cause" IF i know its going somewhere and the Dev and Customer Service and GMs actually give a sh_t about its' players lol
So far Mabinogi seem ok (ill spend $5 for a rebirth) ...World of Kung-Fu is awsome with the best Dev, GM and Customer Services I've seen to date, besides a P2P game (even though most "FREE" MMO are pay, u just dont know it lol)
Also price factors in... how much in-game money are you getting for your Dollar? Was the import price adjusted to fit the US Dollar? (its went down over time)
Are the items you buy KEEPABLE... I understand wanting to help the game dev improve ur fav game or getting unique items from a cash shop to assist your player, but when you buy something like an outfit and you can only wear it a week and u spend $10~20 on it.. the question pops in my head asking "why? are you ah idiot?" And yes, i've seen games like that and people will do it.
But I guess if you rich its nothing but chump change.. not for me though ^_^.. Gas is almost 4 dollars a gallon for reggie
>>i'm not sure how asking people why they pay for a subpar experience and why they're accepting of a subpar experience but ONLY when it comes to MMOs... how THAT is my forcing anything down anyone's throats. but i guess if you just make up words and reply to your made-up words, instead of my questions, i guess i could understand someone coming to that conclusion THAT way. how many people accept subpar quality from any other service for which they pay? that's part of the questions i'm asking. i am truly sorry that you were unable to understand that and instead decided to flame. do you have an mmo that's horrible, yet you continue to pay to play it and i offended you? you don't have an opinion which is on topic for this thread, but you just want to flame. gotcha. are you sure you can't just answer the questions and contribute, instead of being drama'd out?
Are there really any gamers who play games they thing are rubbish? there might be a few, but for the most part, people play their MMO's (whatever they may be) because they enjoy them. Yeah, I might think Vanguard is sh*te, but if Joe Bloggs enjoys playing it then who am I to tell him not to. It's his money, and he's paying it because he enjoys the experience. It might run badly on my rig, but if it runs at what he considers acceptable level then fair enough - he's paying for the enjoyment it gives him.
They are accepting of it because, due to their enjoyment of the game in its current state, they deem it worth their money. They enjoy playing it. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
I have answered your question twice but it seems I have to be more direct in my answer...
Why do ppl throw their money away on subpar goods and/or services when the ppl/companies making said itemizations should know better than to offer them in such a state as to negatively impact the customer's satisfaction, either in money and/or enjoyment?
Because it is their God-given RIGHT!!! Clear enough?
Only a moron willingly gives money to shoddy products and/or services, yet it happens everywhere..not just in mmos
I really can't be any more forthcoming in my answer...I just hope you see it as an answer and not a flame. Yet i can't rightly understand your continued reverberation of the same querry, when it's obvious a question of choice.
Because there is not an alternative. It's like the RC helicopter hobby. Try to buy one, they are buggy as hell, yet people buy them, because all the affordable ones are.
Well i do buy every mmorpg that comes out in box to give it a try.
I dont stay longer then 2 weeks , not because of bugs but because the game was based on a single player game .
Single player games have npc selling
single player games have money drops from mobs.
I can keep on going but iam going to stop there.
What iam looking for:
1 player made everything that would be how you make money. Or you can mine for money fish for money and those kind of things to,
2 Everything wears out and breaks , This keeps everyone working.
3 Combat where you got to hit with your mouse when clicked. Not sit and watch that is the lazy man way. If your that tierd then get off you putor.
4 Skill bace game where you lose skill, if you do not use that skill. Skill in the game should not be limited . But remember you lose skill in all skills that are not used .
So there will be peaks on skills because you will not be able to train all skills at same time.
Death penalty should be harsh. And full loot should be in game . This makes it worth killing for.
Say theres lot of mines in the area and your group finds them and the enemy sees those mines to.
There could be a war that last years just for those mines.
Only drops from mobs should be like fishing , With a hi skill in fishing remember everyone will be diff because you can only raise a skill by doing it and that means all other skills will not rise .Say you like to fish and your one of the best fisherman then you should get lots of bonuses . Same gos for a miner , etc.
With a player ran and player made game you cant run out of stuff to do because your team will need you not like alot of mmo where you dont have to do nothing but sit there if you want. Why you say because everything that the ppl need they can get it from npc ,
Or they can make everything they need in the game so they dont need no one, SEE single player game!
I like a game where a cook can make stuff to eat that can be eaten as you fight and eat as much as you want and as many as you want to eat as long as you got them. See that keeps a well skill cook in bizzzzz.
Skills should still go down if you only get on it for 15 mins. this will stop all them ppl trying to build all skills up and keep them like that, The more time you spend on a skill the more skill points gained in that skill , but to keep going up in skill you need to do that skill as much as you can.
If you stop doing your skills then they should go down slightly in skill every day.
Dont need any citys in the game for that matter dont need nothing .We should learn to take care of are selfs buy learning how to live off the land and start makeing stuff on are own.
Player made , Player ran, Skill Bace game. Full loot , no safe zones , thousands of skills to do.
Make it challenging when we do are trade skills, like playing pinball, and the higher score we get the better the item is!
Well i hope you get what i mean ,Thats what iam looking for and so Far Darkfall comes the closest!
IMO they are already part of the game, that's why they expense more and more even they already wasting their time and money, if we based our routine everyday, hobby, food, entertainment, MMO games and trip. it is just a usual thing that we expense our time and also money, just to serve our extinct.
for entertainment or just for leisure time, play games. in order to let someone play happily, throw some money for the game. it all depends on the one who play game with what center...
out of over 825,000 members on these forums, only one or two could actually give the reasons why they, personally, will accept subpar entertainment from their MMOs (be it technical or content or both); yet not accept subpar entertainment of any other sort (i.e. sports, television programs, movies, music, phone service, food from fast food joints/restaurants, etc) ?
that's great if you do have fun in a game that is providing YOU a subpar experience. i'm sure you COULD have fun watching a half finished movie, or watching your favorite sports team play with half the team on crutches. do you? do you accept less than "my money's worth for a quality product" in your MMOs? do you have that same low standard for all your other entertainment?
that's what i'm curious about. maybe i've not been succinct in my questions, maybe i've let trolls and ignorance divert me -- why do YOU accept less than quality? if you only play games that give superb play/content/etc - what are they? i'd love to be playing a game with seemingly endless (and FUN) content and that is very low in the bug department.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
My response to that is we gamers do not know what is the par gaming experience. We all have different tolerance levels. Some may tolerate a few pathing bugs but cancel a subscription if the client crashes randomly.
Other players want seamless gaming with no hiccups. One too many lag deaths and the game is shelved.
Other also feel betrayed if the game marketers overpromised and underdelivered. Promise great new features to get you psyched up for a "new" experience but after the deal has been sealed with your credit card, those promises are left unkept or the masses are kept at bay with "expansion".
We gamers are mostly impulse buyers, we are willing to try anything if it meets are personal standards.
In the grander scheme of things gamer hobbyist isn't that bad on the wallet.
so, you accept a crappy game because it's comparitively cheap to your other forms of entertainment? like, $15/month as opposed to $50-100/month for cable/satellite?
but, you do get a hell of a lot more content and ofttimes better in the "technical" arena for that $35-85/month extra.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
as an example that many of us lived thru -- hyjal server (for wow) was nigh near unplayable for the first 6 months. you'd have about half the time it was up and not too laggy, and half the time where you just couldn't do anything. combine that with the falling thru the boats and all the other bugs, AND with the lack of battlegrounds and other features which were either on the box or had been promised by blizzard to be a part of the retail edition.
why DO we accept a lower standard?
if you're a player that goes ahead and pays for the subpar games -- why? for the subpar performance -- why?
what other form of entertainment do you have, which you pay a recurring charge, and you smile and grin and go "oh give them time and it'll improve"?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
your post seems to have nothing to do with this thread.
would you care to answer some of the questions i posed?
i would like to understand why so many (seemingly millions, if not only hundreds of thousands), readily hand out a monthly sub AND defend these games.
or, why people are so quick to go "oh you couldn't do it". no, but i also can't perform heart or brain surgery. if a doctor screwed up one of those operations, would you make the same argument of "oh you couldn't do it" or would you be more like "wtf".
you'd probably be 'wtf'. why? because that person is trained to do that job and receives quite a bit of compensation for doing said job.
tens of millions of dollars, half a decade (maybe only 4 years, maybe 6 or 7 years) of time, a team of people who HAVE designed games before --- yet, we should be patient and understanding and give them our support (both on forums/verbally and with a monthly sub fee)... why?
would you go to mcdonalds, order a cheeseburger, only to be given half a pack of fries, then be fussed at by other customers that you should eat your fries and stfu? would you take that? would you return to that mcdonalds? would you think it was full of idiots (both employees AND customers)?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It’s called PC gaming. Different hardware, different software running in the background. Mathematically impossibly to test every possible configuration. Not to mention a wide range or graphic, memory, processor speed and sound capabilities.
If you want a bug free experience you are going to have to play a console. That’s just the way is. I thought that was common knowledge?
let's try something which i thought was common knowledge...
does every mmo out there have crashes to desktop and tons of bugs (to where it's really NOT enjoyable to play)?
no
they don't.
a few bugs here and there, perhaps something along the lines of a certain power for one class that doesn't work quite right, or some costume/armor clipping in the art, compared to falling thru boats/buildings/the world and having to die, compared to tons of lag and extremely low frame rates and THESE problems due to memory leaks, bad programming and other things that don't care what sort of computer you use.
you honestly can not distinguish between what i am speaking of and the example you give?
honestly?
you're not able to distinguish betwen them?
i'm sorry that your post makes it seem you are unable to distinguish between them. i truly am.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
damian7 - your analogy comparing MMOs to cable television is one of the worst ever.
A better analogy would be a TV show that is unfinished yet broadcast anyway.
All video games are very complicated(MMOs especially) so eliminating all the bugs is impossible. It's quite obvious you have zero knowledge of video game design.
The more unfinished a MMO is at release to less money the company has at the time. Sigil ran completely out of money so was forced to release Vanguard as is or go under(which happened anyway).
If a MMO is unsatisfactorily unfinished at release I will not play it, I suggest you do the same and stop making lame analogies.
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
how many months do you continue to play under THOSE conditions until you go "what the, maybe if/when they get their act together i might come back"?
i do go on the assumption that no one SHOULD be addicted to having to play a game, or that MMOs are the only entertainment an individual has. as such, i see many alternatives (even to online/pc/console games), sports, tv, movies, gf/bf/spouse, church, school activities, whatever.
going on the understanding that no one is addicted and HAS to play an MMO...
how long, and why, would you pay a monthly sub to support people who have delivered a half-finished game to you, with the intention of they'll get it fixed when they get it fixed INSTEAD of having it nice and playable BEFORE it was released into retail?
it seems that there's not really a timeframe on that for most of us. how many people put up with months and months of horrid gaming when WoW was first released?
i did, only because it was finally an online game the wife would play. nowadays, we buy one box and see how it looks and plays and how buggy it is. if it's bug-riddled; odds are we don't try it again. we MIGHT, if a few of our friends bring it up or start playing down the road and they're enjoying it. but, more often, we don't.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i'll go back to the wow example -- there were horrid lag issues, blizzard admitted it was their problem and their fault.
reasonable people would expect the onus to be on the part of the game company to make games available to a wide audience, and if they release a bare minimum spec for a game to be played - - it should be playable with those bare minimum specs.
the last part of it -- every person that sits there for 6 months to a year, steadily paying a monthly sub and telling devs that it's ok, we know you're trying hard. that's yet another dev team and another gaming company that, rightfully, believes there are idiots in the world that will pay you indefinitely for a half-finished project and THANK YOU for it.
now, does that mean that the next game will be of a higher standard, better quality, or more than half-way finished?
why should they? they just ran a halfway thrown together game for months/years and had people thanking them for it. why in the world would they put forth the effort to make certain that the NEXT game they release is beautiful and perfect?
am i really asking something that is a foreign concept to many people out there?
why give your support to a game company that didn't have the decency to, once they realized their game was incomplete/having issues (and a lot of times game companies DO realize it's their problem and only players blame other players computers, as we've seen in this thread), they don't go ahead and say -- hey, here's a big discount, or free month, since we're essentially getting free beta testing from all you players.
a free day for a month of my having a hard time even trying to play a game, or even a game that's fairly lacking in content and boring shortly after starting -- that's not really much of an enticement for a reasonable person to continue playing, is it? much less if the company gives no enticement.
so, why do we do it?
are we all addictive personalities that just HAVE to be online playing something?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
when vonage first came out, would you have gotten (and kept) it, if you had lots of static and dropped calls?
if every time you order fast food, the order is wrong, the food is nasty, or they overcharge you and won't refund your money.. would you keep returning to that fast good place?
i didn't think the comparisons i made would be that hard to understand, or were that bad. i honestly did assume a certain level of person reading/replying to posts, who would be able to even draw their own analogies of what goes on in MMOs.
if you don't do it with other forms of entertainment and/or services, why on MMOs.
and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.
so yes, there is a pretty plain cause-effect which does have a direct impact on the playing experience of everyone.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
For me, it boils down to the ideology factor I mentioned before. If I really like the concepts involved in the current state of the game (I don't play for "potential"), I will pay, play, recruit, and defend. One of my beliefs about life in general is that creativity and originality are important, and I extend this belief to MMOs.
Stability and polish is not the only scale of standards a thing can be judged upon, nor is it the scale I choose to use.
An MMO that rates high in your standards may rate low in my standards, because we're not dealing with the same type of standards.
Regardless of anything else my subscription dollars may be saying, the message I try to send with them is "make more unique games, more mature games, more crafting-centric games, more complex games."
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
you should try and perform open heart surgery for yourself and see if the patient has a full recovery and long life.
makes about as much sense as what you just told me.
if you honestly believe a team of experienced game developers, with tens of millions of dollars, years of time to make a new game, and thousands of free closed beta testers, is ONLY capable of delivering a halfway-finished game (be it content, technical, whatever); then, you have completely bought into the lies they've been selling us.
keep in mind, this is with them releasing a game AFTER having pushed it back 3 months, 3 months, 2 months and maybe another couple of months on top of that, from their original release date. a lot of these have closed betas (with all those nonpaid free beta tester hours) that go on for quite a long time.
so, how about that open heart surgery?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Sorry, but your post completely goes over my head. The games I play do NOT stutter or crash on me. I haven't even run into any major bugs on them. What kind of system are you running on?
Besides, I think that in some cases you can trace buggy games back to the player. Have you ever entered a closed beta with the intention to REALLY test the game and report the bugs rather than get a 'free' look at it? Closed Beta is an integral part of the testing plan of most every thing. I remember when Windows had new releases that were 'closed beta' tested. The people getting the beta version didn't get paid to test it and didn't expect to.
yet again, a tangent that's not really on topic in this thread.
how many years of a game being played, should be the norm, for someone to be able to sit down and PLAY and enjoy the game... without having to worry about lag, d/c, desktop crash, bugs where you fall thru the world?
how many years of retail should it be?
i mean, i have zero knowledge of game design, yet i do see a number of MMOs out there where i can actually play the game and not be frustrated with load times, d/cs and what have you. or not be totally bored with the lack of content, or because everything is a "go kill 100 of these bugs" mission/quest.
i'm sorry if i offended you because you own stock in a particular company that is about to release a game.
if you're lashing out because the poor devs of so many games are under so much pressure to deliver a fun game, after ONLY having half a decade to develop it, ONLY having 300,000 applicants from which to choose their non-paid closed beta testers (whom they'll use for 6 months to a year and a half), ONLY having a budget of $4 MILLION/year with which to create a game - then i have no understanding of where you are coming from.
players themselves should not accept games that are subpar. honestly, it seems like MMOs are the only area of entertainment where we accept this.
oh, and if you have a better analogy, please give it; if you're incapable of understanding where any of the analogies were going, i'm sorry, i can not help you there.
so, why do we pay to play games that aren't up to snuff; but, we'll sure as heck stop watching a tv show, change phone providers, or even find a new sporting team to cheer for -- if those don't perform as we desire them?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
If you played the 30 period and experienced all those things you didn't like, AND you read somewhere the company 'fessed up' as you put it that the problem was on their side, then the only only person to blame for paying to play it after that...is you.
You went in the decision knowing full well the potential for danger but you risked it anyway.
You can blame the company for not bringing out something polished, sure, and you'd be right...but if you use your example, you're the sucker for staying.
-and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.- As stated by yourself.
As if you can actually have an impact on what these people think?! Are you actually that self-absorbed to think they care what one person thinks. If you like something, no matter what it is or state it's in, do YOU care what others say?
You want to blame the "fanbois" and the ppl that ACTUALLY like the game because you were disappointed in something with it? You're not the only one, many aren't gonna play it for the same reasons you posted.
The thing is, you aren't a judge in this...you can complain, protest, and rant all you want, but if enough ppl want to give their money to something they think is worth it...you don't have a leg to stand on, my friend.
The game will run its due course and it will either strive or fail..
I suggest you either make petitions and/or create a website for this rant if you want real change but try not to ram your opinions so forcefully down people's throat that don't see it your way.
Either way, It doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'll play what I want, how I want, with the knowledge that I have only myself to blame if I give money to something that isn't perfect. If we all did that, maybe games would come out better and more polished...but guess what? It'll never happen...get used to it, it's a little thing called LIFE!
i can understand that. i know people that'll play eve online, or 'city of' because they like the genre, they like where they see the games going, etc.
i also can understand how you'd continue to play one of those games, in which you're enjoying the content, even if the service itself is lacking (d/cs, laggy, etc).
but why do we do that even?
if a game has great content that we love, but (and the game company admits this is their fault) it is laggy, it has bugs that cause you to die, or your computer to lock up and you have to reboot, or other annoying things such as that -- why do we continue to pay for the service?
do we accept either bad technical support (for lack of a better term), or low quality content from any other form of entertainment?
console games, console games on the net, any type of tv/radio programming which we have to pay for, sporting events, etc.
as i've said, i know people that will go quite ballistic if the power would DARE to go out at a crucial point in a football game.
supporting a small company who actually listens to their playerbase (not just the vocal minority), and works with their players in producing a quality gaming experience... that is one thing.
that is not the case in the majority of instances we see. we see a company who invested millions, just made millions off the box sales, and are making millions every month off of subs; and they are quite happy to see all the people going, "hey, i love your game, here's my money, and don't worry too much about all the glitches and lag, i understand and will keep giving you money."
yet, would any of us turn to the phone/cable/sports/whatever other form of entertainment industry, and tell them the same? if not, why not? computer games are so much harder than all the computer-graphics, environmental factors, tempermental actors and guilds, etc etc that movies/tv shows have to deal with? they're so much harder than a team of football players having to practice constantly and hope that they're better than the other teams doing the same as they? they're more complicated than continually integrating the mixed technologies involved in telephony?
how many different types of routers, computers, lans, wans are out there, and yet we expect our internet provider to be able to give us service no matter what sort of computer equipment we have at our home, correct? we also expect that service to be up, available, and lag-free 24/7. ISPs don't really provide content; but MMOs do, and we expect the same from an MMO.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
well, let's say you have no way of knowing how a game will be BEFORE you play it, no previews, no reviews, nothing but looking at the box. say you buy it and you play out the 30 day period that came with the game.
now, your 30 day period is up, and this game is still quite buggy. say you DO like that it's pirates and boats and what not. say the content/quests are so/so or even good. but at least once an hour there's an annoying bug, like you fall thru your ship, or d/c in the middle of a fight (which causes you to lose your ship or be killed or whatever), say that other times, it's just real laggy and the gaming company itself has 'fessed up that the lagginess is indeed on their side and something they're working on.
If you played the 30 period and experienced all those things you didn't like, AND you read somewhere the company 'fessed up' as you put it that the problem was on their side, then the only only person to blame for paying to play it after that...is you.
You went in the decision knowing full well the potential for danger but you risked it anyway.
You can blame the company for not bringing out something polished, sure, and you'd be right...but if you use your example, you're the sucker for staying.
-and yes, it affects every one of us that plays MMOs DIRECTLY... every fanboi or every person that does support a half finished game -- gives the gaming companies the big thumbs-up that it's alright to keep producing and releasing games of that low quality... be it technical, content, or whatever. any time a game is of a subpar condition and has enough players to turn a decent profit -- that is a big green light to that company and others as well, to continue on in the fashion they've begun, and not really strive for a better play experience, because people ARE willing to pay for crap. and they're even willing to pay for it and thank the devs/companies for giving them the crap.- As stated by yourself.
As if you can actually have an impact on what these people think?! Are you actually that self-absorbed to think they care what one person thinks. If you like something, no matter what it is or state it's in, do YOU care what others say?
You want to blame the "fanbois" and the ppl that ACTUALLY like the game because you were disappointed in something with it? You're not the only one, many aren't gonna play it for the same reasons you posted.
The thing is, you aren't a judge in this...you can complain, protest, and rant all you want, but if enough ppl want to give their money to something they think is worth it...you don't have a leg to stand on, my friend.
The game will run its due course and it will either strive or fail..
I suggest you either make petitions and/or create a website for this rant if you want real change but try not to ram your opinions so forcefully down people's throat that don't see it your way.
Either way, It doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'll play what I want, how I want, with the knowledge that I have only myself to blame if I give money to something that isn't perfect. If we all did that, maybe games would come out better and more polished...but guess what? It'll never happen...get used to it, it's a little thing called LIFE!
i was silly enough to think that people would actually try to answer the questions.
i mean, for the most part, this thread is like the quoted... ramblings at me, which have nothing to do with this topic or the questions i posed.
i'm not sure how asking people why they pay for a subpar experience and why they're accepting of a subpar experience but ONLY when it comes to MMOs... how THAT is my forcing anything down anyone's throats. but i guess if you just make up words and reply to your made-up words, instead of my questions, i guess i could understand someone coming to that conclusion THAT way.
how many people accept subpar quality from any other service for which they pay? that's part of the questions i'm asking.
i am truly sorry that you were unable to understand that and instead decided to flame. do you have an mmo that's horrible, yet you continue to pay to play it and i offended you?
you don't have an opinion which is on topic for this thread, but you just want to flame. gotcha. are you sure you can't just answer the questions and contribute, instead of being drama'd out?
i actually re-read that post, because i thought i had mis-read it, and i laughed again.
how many people believe they HAVE to accept subpar games, and that is the reason they go ahead and pay for them? they've grown accustomed to the "that's how it is" mentality that the gaming companies push on them. not everyone wants to goose-step to that drum, and that is very much life. a lot of people may accept a lesser quality if they honestly believe that is all they CAN expect, or that is all they're entitled to get for their money.
you can attempt to force people to believe your tirade, friend; but no one has to. i'm asking questions to try to get people thinking WHY they do a thing. how many people would be very happy with just 3 television stations if that is all they believed they could get? oh, this is just how it's always been, we just have these 3 channels, i guess it'd be nice if we could have more channels and different programs, but it's always been this way and it's just how it is.
but then someone showed them they could get 20 different sports channels (for a sports fanatic, substitute 20 of whatever kind of channels/broadcasting you desire) and they were like "oh wow, i could've been having all this... all this time?????
have we been conditioned to thinking that we just have to accept what's half-done and thrown at us, and just deal with it? when we look and see so many other projects done so much better. shouldn't we hold our beloved MMOs to a higher standard than just "deal with whatever crap is there, it'll get better eventually".
we certainly don't accept less elsewhere, do we?
so maybe we could stick with the words of this thread, instead of made-up words created by disembodied voices?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WOOOO I LIKE THIS TOPIC!!
Ok, here's my two cent. I dont pay money to crap games or crap developers. i.e. poor customer service... buggie game that never gets fixed yet always has an update but only to the Item Mall/Cash Shop (whatever you want to kall it) that to me is just scamming or a 'get rich quick scheme' throw in some art work, models and rebuild "a grind game" like everyone else does then add everything a player would actually need in the item mall knowing at least 3/5 of the people will have to buy it.. that and wait for your Gold Sellers.
Then you sitting on a cash cow, some people cant help but spend money on games like that.. its like Gambling to a person who cant stop gambling, least thats what I've notice.
But some games I'd be more then happy to spend money on to "help the cause" IF i know its going somewhere and the Dev and Customer Service and GMs actually give a sh_t about its' players lol
So far Mabinogi seem ok (ill spend $5 for a rebirth) ...World of Kung-Fu is awsome with the best Dev, GM and Customer Services I've seen to date, besides a P2P game (even though most "FREE" MMO are pay, u just dont know it lol)
Also price factors in... how much in-game money are you getting for your Dollar? Was the import price adjusted to fit the US Dollar? (its went down over time)
Are the items you buy KEEPABLE... I understand wanting to help the game dev improve ur fav game or getting unique items from a cash shop to assist your player, but when you buy something like an outfit and you can only wear it a week and u spend $10~20 on it.. the question pops in my head asking "why? are you ah idiot?" And yes, i've seen games like that and people will do it.
But I guess if you rich its nothing but chump change.. not for me though ^_^.. Gas is almost 4 dollars a gallon for reggie
Games I've Played: SilkRoad, Flyff, NeoCron, PlanetSide, Rapplez, UpshiftRacer, Drift City, TB, Kwonho, ArchLord, AoA, Exteel, WolfTeam, Shaiyan, WoKF, FFXIV, STO, KoTR, ESO, Defiance, Mabinogi
Games I'm Playing: Warframe/STO
Games I'm Pondering: The Secret World
Are there really any gamers who play games they thing are rubbish? there might be a few, but for the most part, people play their MMO's (whatever they may be) because they enjoy them. Yeah, I might think Vanguard is sh*te, but if Joe Bloggs enjoys playing it then who am I to tell him not to. It's his money, and he's paying it because he enjoys the experience. It might run badly on my rig, but if it runs at what he considers acceptable level then fair enough - he's paying for the enjoyment it gives him.
They are accepting of it because, due to their enjoyment of the game in its current state, they deem it worth their money. They enjoy playing it. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
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Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
First off, I'm not offended, not in the least
I have answered your question twice but it seems I have to be more direct in my answer...
Why do ppl throw their money away on subpar goods and/or services when the ppl/companies making said itemizations should know better than to offer them in such a state as to negatively impact the customer's satisfaction, either in money and/or enjoyment?
Because it is their God-given RIGHT!!! Clear enough?
Only a moron willingly gives money to shoddy products and/or services, yet it happens everywhere..not just in mmos
I really can't be any more forthcoming in my answer...I just hope you see it as an answer and not a flame. Yet i can't rightly understand your continued reverberation of the same querry, when it's obvious a question of choice.
I
Because there is not an alternative. It's like the RC helicopter hobby. Try to buy one, they are buggy as hell, yet people buy them, because all the affordable ones are.
Well i do buy every mmorpg that comes out in box to give it a try.
I dont stay longer then 2 weeks , not because of bugs but because the game was based on a single player game .
Single player games have npc selling
single player games have money drops from mobs.
I can keep on going but iam going to stop there.
What iam looking for:
1 player made everything that would be how you make money. Or you can mine for money fish for money and those kind of things to,
2 Everything wears out and breaks , This keeps everyone working.
3 Combat where you got to hit with your mouse when clicked. Not sit and watch that is the lazy man way. If your that tierd then get off you putor.
4 Skill bace game where you lose skill, if you do not use that skill. Skill in the game should not be limited . But remember you lose skill in all skills that are not used .
So there will be peaks on skills because you will not be able to train all skills at same time.
Death penalty should be harsh. And full loot should be in game . This makes it worth killing for.
Say theres lot of mines in the area and your group finds them and the enemy sees those mines to.
There could be a war that last years just for those mines.
Only drops from mobs should be like fishing , With a hi skill in fishing remember everyone will be diff because you can only raise a skill by doing it and that means all other skills will not rise .Say you like to fish and your one of the best fisherman then you should get lots of bonuses . Same gos for a miner , etc.
With a player ran and player made game you cant run out of stuff to do because your team will need you not like alot of mmo where you dont have to do nothing but sit there if you want. Why you say because everything that the ppl need they can get it from npc ,
Or they can make everything they need in the game so they dont need no one, SEE single player game!
I like a game where a cook can make stuff to eat that can be eaten as you fight and eat as much as you want and as many as you want to eat as long as you got them. See that keeps a well skill cook in bizzzzz.
Skills should still go down if you only get on it for 15 mins. this will stop all them ppl trying to build all skills up and keep them like that, The more time you spend on a skill the more skill points gained in that skill , but to keep going up in skill you need to do that skill as much as you can.
If you stop doing your skills then they should go down slightly in skill every day.
Dont need any citys in the game for that matter dont need nothing .We should learn to take care of are selfs buy learning how to live off the land and start makeing stuff on are own.
Player made , Player ran, Skill Bace game. Full loot , no safe zones , thousands of skills to do.
Make it challenging when we do are trade skills, like playing pinball, and the higher score we get the better the item is!
Well i hope you get what i mean ,Thats what iam looking for and so Far Darkfall comes the closest!
WWIIOnline The Real War!
IMO they are already part of the game, that's why they expense more and more even they already wasting their time and money, if we based our routine everyday, hobby, food, entertainment, MMO games and trip. it is just a usual thing that we expense our time and also money, just to serve our extinct.
out of over 825,000 members on these forums, only one or two could actually give the reasons why they, personally, will accept subpar entertainment from their MMOs (be it technical or content or both); yet not accept subpar entertainment of any other sort (i.e. sports, television programs, movies, music, phone service, food from fast food joints/restaurants, etc) ?
that's great if you do have fun in a game that is providing YOU a subpar experience. i'm sure you COULD have fun watching a half finished movie, or watching your favorite sports team play with half the team on crutches. do you? do you accept less than "my money's worth for a quality product" in your MMOs? do you have that same low standard for all your other entertainment?
that's what i'm curious about. maybe i've not been succinct in my questions, maybe i've let trolls and ignorance divert me -- why do YOU accept less than quality? if you only play games that give superb play/content/etc - what are they? i'd love to be playing a game with seemingly endless (and FUN) content and that is very low in the bug department.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
My response to that is we gamers do not know what is the par gaming experience. We all have different tolerance levels. Some may tolerate a few pathing bugs but cancel a subscription if the client crashes randomly.
Other players want seamless gaming with no hiccups. One too many lag deaths and the game is shelved.
Other also feel betrayed if the game marketers overpromised and underdelivered. Promise great new features to get you psyched up for a "new" experience but after the deal has been sealed with your credit card, those promises are left unkept or the masses are kept at bay with "expansion".
We gamers are mostly impulse buyers, we are willing to try anything if it meets are personal standards.
In the grander scheme of things gamer hobbyist isn't that bad on the wallet.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
so, you accept a crappy game because it's comparitively cheap to your other forms of entertainment? like, $15/month as opposed to $50-100/month for cable/satellite?
but, you do get a hell of a lot more content and ofttimes better in the "technical" arena for that $35-85/month extra.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?