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Raiding... why is that a staple of MMOs now?
mrudis
Member Posts: 26
Seriously. What is so fun and rewarding about raiding that it is now considered a basic element of any new MMO? Why is that usually the big "end-game" and why is raiding something lower-levels demand be open to them as well? Is it because that's the only thing companies can think of for an "end-game"?
I remember in EQ1 it just seemed to eventually happen. I don't think it was anything originally formulated really. Just people got so high, so fast (relatively fast... compared with what Verant thought was fast, not compared to WoW), so they created "impossible" enemies. They turned out not to be so impossible when faced with 10 groups of 6 players each all informally linked.
I just thought of this reading through a bunch of unrelated posts... none of them having to do with raiding, but raiding was brought up as something that absolutely must be accomidated for. Why is that? 
Comments
Because it's fun. What else is there that is harder than grouping?
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Teamwork I guess. Forces players to organize into guilds and social structures. A player connected to a social network in game is much more likely to continue paying the monthly fees.
2. Because long standing, large guilds who base their self worth on the exclusive nature of the raiding end-game put pressure on devs to accomodate their wishes at the expense of everyone else.
And I think you're right about EQ1. I'm pretty sure that raiding was an unforseen development in that game. Originally there was Naggy and Vox for "end-game" content. I'm pretty sure they were intended to be dealt with by the usual six person group. It's just that they were meant to be very, very difficult for a 6 person group to beat.
So, naturally, the players started taking more than six people and suddenly the encounters were much easier. The dev's response was to increase the toughness of the encounters. So the players took more people. So the devs made the mobs tougher. And players took even more people. And thus raiding was born.
And now we have to watch developers ruin game after game with that most boring and un-fun playstyle because a tiny fraction of mmorpg players discovered that, because most players don't have the time for it or the willingness to endure the boredom of it, it gives those who do have the time and dull wittedness to endure the boredom an e-peen ego boost.
I would not say that its the staple of all MMOs, but the PVE centric MMOs.
In PvP centered MMOs, for example DAOC..sure there are raids, but it is NOT the staple nor focus of that game.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Its the easiest way to create endgame content that will keep the most players playing the game for years and years.
Its all down to earning money. Raid dungeons are very very cost effective when you compared development cost compared to the revenue they create.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Raiding has become a staple mainly due to the gear awarded, not so much the fun (though for many it is fun as well).
Casual players well seldom see 2-3 nights of raiding/week, and yet some (if not all) of the highest gear is found there.
So the complaint is usually from the casual players, envious of those who have the time/effort involved. I am not implying this in the OP's case, as it would only be speculation.
Those who do raid alot with guilds or friends tend not to mind it since they enjoy it and have the possibility of acquiring those items.
As to the balance it has between casual and hardcore gamers...the difference is huge, but how else would you reward those with more play time than the casual player? More content/story but without tangible rewards? It isn't realistic from the raider's p.o.v.
Maybe they should only allow the raiding gear to be used in raids and the PvP gear (in some games) to be used in PvP only....but that would cause even more of a debate.
Put yourself in a developers shoes. Suppose you got a loan from a bank or investor for millions of dollars and they wanted you to make a game that would entertain thousands of people at a time for years. They give you a few years to produce it. Now your company needs money to pay off that loan soon.
Your game has a fair amount of content but after about a month of playing, your playerbase is screaming boredom. Why? Becuase they have maximized their level, they consider the game "won".
How do you challenge them after they reached and surpassed all the barriers you put up?
The easiest method is raid content. Similar to a lottery, you get a rare chance to have items no one else has, unless you overcome this type of content. It isn't a perfect answer, as many from these boards will tell you.
- Raids provide a means for players to keep playing a game. A decade ago in the EQ1 days, it was considered the ultimate achievement because of the organization in forming a raid, organization in completing the run and time involved to complete the run.
You got better ideas?
PvP - Good direction. DAOC and EVE proved that. However, meaningless PvP brings out the ugly behavior or ganking, griefing, camping players. So games that throw in PvP as an afterthought or expansion do not get much bang for their buck. To be sure, pure PvP games do not see the longevity as PvE games do.
Player created content - do not know too much about this one. Only game I know that offers it extensively is Ryzom. City of Villian expansion has some player base content which can be raided but thats about it.
Looking strictly at EQ1 prior to raidmode, the game was very different. Sure, people grouped up outside of raidmode to kill vox/naggy, but that was a once a week deal. People loved getting together for these kills, but it wasn't the formula for success. Dungeons were.
People expanded on the theme a bit when Plane of Fear was opened up. It offered more of a chance to get together to delve into the plane. Still, only one group per kill got exp and it had to generate a lot of honesty when it came to dividing loot.
Then came raidmode. People's tempers changed, and their idea for what was considered "fun". This forced the dev teams hand, forcing them to give more and more to the raiding types, who burned through content faster than it could be produced. Why soe didn't have the foresight to see the way things were going is beyond me.
Anyway, to tag along with things, i believe there are two crowds in raiding itself. You have the energetic, intelligent types who work hard at putting raids together, coordinating efforts and trying to please a lot of people at once. Then you have those who ride the coat tails of others work. People who personally don't care about the success of a guild, they are just there to get theirs so they can be ahead of the curve. This type is poisonous to any guild in any game.
In my personal opinion, i think raiding belongs in rts mmo's and not in traditional ones.
I think its a social thing.
Or to be more specific social organizations tend to get more attention even if they are not at popular.
For example at the University I went to for my Bachelor's degree the Helenic stuff, fraternity and sorority, was not very popular, probably less than 25%. At the other major state school the Helenic stuff was very popular and ingrained in the social atmosphere, ie. the good parties were frat parties whereas at my school the good parties were usually non-frat parties.
Yet both schools had the same official support for greek stuff. The various frat type people tried to act like it was the big thing and important even thoug no one cared.
Having been to various schools and getting a grad degree at a different school I noticed that the more the frats can corner the social scheme and convince people they are important the greater their enrollment. And the more they claim to be the coolest thing in the world. Even though from what I can tell most people actually do not like the frat scene and if given a real choice would not join a frat or sorority. Further frats tend to exhibit and instill the same group think that raiding does. And even more when people get away from it and you ask them what was so great about most of them just kind of shrug and say it was the thing to do.
So basically raiding is like a cult. But the thing to realize is that it was destined to be a cult because it requires quite a few people and large groups of people with a common goal tend to act in almost exactly the same way.
They grab power.
They claim they are better than everyone else.
They demand conformity.
etc etc
Raiding for those who have never done it through my eyes, a hardcore raider:
When I started playing Eq1 I never thought I'd be a raider. I was in family guilds until I hit max lvl (60 at the time.) A friend of mine who left my guild and went to a raiding guild invited me to go on a raid in an attempt to recruit me to his guild.
Before this, I was used to maybe... a hard 1 group mob, or an older raid mob that my current guild could take down by sheer numbers and no strategy.
Then I saw how a real raid guild did it. It was AMAZING. They worked with military like precision. Everything was choreographed. Everyone had an important job and it seemed to my untrained eyes that every single person was required to be absolutely on the ball to accomplish defeating this boss. I was so excited to be a part of that, that I was sucked in almost immediately.
Thats why I love raiding and that why I believe its a staple. Its like... because you cant turn up the difficulty on an mmo (we all play the same game) you have to build in hard mode for people who with to take on a higher challenge. Hard mode on an mmo is raiding. It doesnt have to be, but its universally assumed that a difficult boss is more difficult if it requires a raid than just a group or two because the more people you require to take the boss down, the more you introduce weak points in your activities/strageties... more weak links because of communicational and organizational barriers. These problems dont exist (or are more easily delt with) in groups. Its a pride thing as well - if everyone is playing the game you love so much, you want to be able to tote around your hard earned prizes.
Raids are meant (or should be... thats what raiders want) to absolutely MAX OUT the players capabilities. If you are not THE BEST you can be (gear, organization, communication, skill, etc.) you will not defeat this boss. With that in mind, when you actually DO beat that boss, you feel awesome. Plus your rewarded with gear that others cant get because they haven't proven themselves as up to the challenge as you have.
Casual players shouldn't feel picked on because they dont have time to play like hardcore raiders do. Its the same that a Guitar Hero player who just beat hard mode after playing 20 total hours shouldnt feel bad about being beaten by the guy who has 5 star'd every expert song after having played 200 hours. The hard-mode player wouldnt get mad at the expert-mode player for having the final unlockeable guitar (loot in this case heh.) He put a lot more time into the game, polished his skills, and earned it.
Lots of raid haters on these boards. Not sure why. Raiding is a lot of fun. More important than the gear is the completion of the script. The gear is really like a medal you earn in the military that says 'I am this good'. The same feeling from a military medal is the feeling you get from a raid drop. It's the badge that says 'I did this content. I feel great about it'.
And believe it or not, the gear is just as much of a self confidence booster as it is a social ranking badge. I have wow raid gear, and I'm proud of every piece I picked up. Not because I don't think others can do the same thing (lots do - more than you guys admit to), but that I committed myself to something difficult and that required a certain amount of perseverance, and I overcame all of the obstacles and pitfalls, and finally came out on top of that content, badge in hand.
Many many gamers raid, and really it's not all that much of a hardcore activity. It's just like being on a sports team. You do that at least 3 nights a week...so how's raiding any different? Is playing on a softball team hardcore sports? No. Is being a part of high school or college track and practicing 5 days a week with a meet on saturday hardcore? No. So how is raiding 2 or 3 nights a week in any way hardcore? It's not.
In EQ days 2 to 3 nights a week was casual. Now all of the sudden it's hardcore? Uh no it's not. WoW raiding is as casual as raiding gets. You can raid 2 to 3 nights a week and see Black Temple before the new expansion comes out. Anyone who can commit to it can see the content, just like anyone who practices can be good at sports.
And I guarantee you all those supposed 'casual' people that bitch about raiders are playing 5 to 6 nights a week. I know because I used to see their names on my friends list every time I logged in. They play a ton, but they just don't have the balls to commit to something hard and really try to beat it. Why? Because they know they don't have the guts to see it through. They know they'll give up and have nobody to blame but themselves. Most of the casuals I ever knew that really deep down wanted to raid, but complained about the time requirement (even though they played more than I ever did) really, truly just didn't want to even try raiding because they were afraid to fail. =( *sniff* They're the same kind of people that when the going gets tough they either quit or just sit there with their thumb up their bum 'waiting it out' instead of doing something to fix it.
It really has nothing to do with how much time it takes to raid. Even if it were just 1 night a week people would still bitch and call it hardcore. lol The real reason the so called 'casual' people don't like to raid is they can't organize that many people together to get any real objective accomplished. Sorry, but that's the truth of it. And it's not even that they can't, but rather that's too much 'work'. It's like they just want the gear without doing anything to 'earn' that gear. Like you just walk into the Marine Corps office and say 'Give me an f'in Silver Star. I want one, but I really just don't have the guts to go into combat and earn it, so instead just give me the prize even though I'm not willing to do the work.'
Nothing that's worth anything in this world is free. And that's the real reason people bitch about raiding. They want the prize without going through the pain. What they don't realize is the worth of the prize isn't in the prize at all; it's in the road to the prize. It's what it took to get the prize that matters, that makes it worth a damn.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I never really got the point of raiding, at least, not the way its usually implemented. Repeating the same scripted encounter over and over and over...
Now, if they ever decide to make raids that are more dynamic or random, then I might be interested. Of course, youd still have the same problem where the most powerful gear can only be had through raiding, which is a pretty weak design, IMO.
It's all about the money plain and simple as that.
In order for a developer to keep adding quests, zones and new/exciting encounters costs a good deal of money. However, raids circumvent that issue. You make a dungeon where everything is boss level, add a couple super bosses then add in a godly boss. Ok, that with the lockout timers would add a couple weeks of life to the game for the people that have capped. Then, you add in a randomized loot table with the really special items on a 1 or 2 drop limit per run. That way you have 40/25 or however many people that all need/want to get the items so you just add 6-8 months of content all with one addition.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
So every game has content you will repeat at least 10 times. It has nothing to do with raiding.
Also, of course the best gear comes from the hardest content. Should it come from the newb quests?
Seriously not really bashing on anybody here, but let's get some logic into the posts. =/
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
We have a winner!
Raiding is hard. Raiding is not something everyone can do, for whatever reason. THAT is why it should give the best gear. Its not weak design.
Heres a "duh" concepts apparently not everyone understands:
Things that are desired over are done so because not everyone can get them. People drool and become green with envy when they see a Ferrari or an Aston Martin because they are generally unattainable to most people. Do you think it would be the same if a Ferrari cost $15,000? No, it wouldnt because then everyone would have it and it would spoil the awe-factor. The same goes for gear or any other high-end reward. If everyone can get it, it becomes pointless and many people loose the drive to bother getting it. Crafting the best gear? Thats not hard, everyone can eventually do it.
Raids dont get boring if you do them over and over either. Eventually they will, but that doesnt mean the 2nd or 5th or even 20th time you do it it's going to be a total drag. When an encounter is REALLY hard, every time you do it, its a challenge. Its never "in the bag," even if you've beaten it 20 times before... thats entertaining. Its so tough that even though you know you can do it and you know it inside and out, theres still that chance that today the cards might deal you something you wernt expecting... are you prepared and good enough to handle it? And if you do, FUN!!
For what its worth, I think people who dont really know what raiding is, or had a bad experience, give it a bad rap when they dont really know what theyre saying. People who are anti-raid think you have to devote your life to get anything worthwhile out of a game that has raiding in it, and that raiding is just a test to see who can turn their brains off and do the ultimate grind for little reward. Thats not it at all. Raiding itself is fun. Its like nethervoid said, the gear is really just a badge of completion.
Yes, dungeons will be repeated. Thats the major reason, IMO, why they should be random or dynamic, rather than scripted.
It really depends on the specific MMO, but I dont see why raids absolutely have to have the best gear. There are other ways of handling that situation. One easy solution would be to just make raids extremely profitable. Of course, for this to workl the game would need an actual economy, which is something these types of MMOs lack...
Honestly, I just have no interest in raiding. I realize that plenty of players are really into raiding, which is fine, there should be raiding focused MMOs out there. The problem, however, is when raiding is forced into every MMO. A number of players in the community will demand raids, so developers add raids. Then the players demand that raids should yield the best gear, so developers add that as well. Now, you have a raiding game, regardless of what the original design may have been.
If you absolutely must make a gear centric MMO, then you better provide different paths for obtaining that gear. Make them all challenging as hell, just make sure that those other options are there.
raiding is the weaksauce that binds together devs that can't actually produce dynamically changing concept, and that don't understand the concept of people have lives and that a game should be F U N, and not a J O B.
but i'm sure a lot of people will support raiding, after all, of the 10 million people, 10 MILLION people, that play wow, a good 50 THOUSAND raid.
an incredible MINORITY are raiders, so that very tiny percentage of one percent should definitely be accomodated in every MMO that comes out.
if pvp received as much work and attention as raiding (which, pvp, has an incredibly higher percentage of players which participate in it, as compared to the miniscule amount that raid); then there would be a ton of GREAT pvp games.
but alas, that one half of one percent of raiders MUST be accomodated because... well, raiding is easy content to generate and they can pretend that people enjoy it, even when the numbers show the exact opposite, even IF the best stuff can only be gained thru raiding.
weaksauce ftl again!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
because at best (going on numbers released by blizzard in their game), raiders comprise less than 1% of the community.
raiders, however, seem to be quite vocal on boards.
they are still the minority by over 99%.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Raiding is hard. Raiding is not something everyone can do, for whatever reason. THAT is why it should give the best gear. Its not weak design.
Heres a "duh" concepts apparently not everyone understands:
Things that are desired over are done so because not everyone can get them. People drool and become green with envy when they see a Ferrari or an Aston Martin because they are generally unattainable to most people. Do you think it would be the same if a Ferrari cost $15,000? No, it wouldnt because then everyone would have it and it would spoil the awe-factor. The same goes for gear or any other high-end reward. If everyone can get it, it becomes pointless and many people loose the drive to bother getting it. Crafting the best gear? Thats not hard, everyone can eventually do it.
Raids dont get boring if you do them over and over either. Eventually they will, but that doesnt mean the 2nd or 5th or even 20th time you do it it's going to be a total drag. When an encounter is REALLY hard, every time you do it, its a challenge. Its never "in the bag," even if you've beaten it 20 times before... thats entertaining. Its so tough that even though you know you can do it and you know it inside and out, theres still that chance that today the cards might deal you something you wernt expecting... are you prepared and good enough to handle it? And if you do, FUN!!
For what its worth, I think people who dont really know what raiding is, or had a bad experience, give it a bad rap when they dont really know what theyre saying. People who are anti-raid think you have to devote your life to get anything worthwhile out of a game that has raiding in it, and that raiding is just a test to see who can turn their brains off and do the ultimate grind for little reward. Thats not it at all. Raiding itself is fun. Its like nethervoid said, the gear is really just a badge of completion.
Prove it.Prove that a dungeons designed for 6 people is necessarily easier than a dungeons design for 24 people. You can't rely on the bigger is better argument everyone knows that is false.
Just because all these games ramp up the design for raids does not mean raids are by their very nature harder.
So prove it. Note input size is not the only measure of an increase in complexity. So if you wish to use complexity argument then you must account for these other measures. Further you will also need to take into account that some task are much easier for a raid and some tasks are much easier for a group. Therefore you will have to show that for the various cases of differential difficulty the raids come out ahead in all cases. It is simply not a priori that raids are harder or more complex, so prove it.
Lastly it really doesn't matter because very many people simply don't like it and are perfectly able of doing it. Yet raiders always claim to be superior and always demand better gear.
And people wonder why so many people hate this BS. It should be obvious. I'd rather gnaw off my own arm than do a many on one raid and I see no reason why I should be punished for that. Oh right its because I am inferior and of course the reason I don't like raiding is simply because I am so ignorant or stupid that I don't understand. It can't possibly have anythign to do with simply not liking playing a game like its a corporation.
Guess what I would rather be part of a small strike force than a miltary battalion. That is just the way it is. Deal with it and stop trying to claim you are better and deserve more. I am simply not a big fan of larger operations, yeah they have their place I am I like the Rikti raids in CoX. But by no means would want to do them or any other raid instead of group content.
if raiding is hardcore, difficult, and elite -- then why is it farmable?
by definition, if something is farmable, it's simple and easy. in the case of raids, it's also incredibly time-consuming. which is the whole point of it, in the mind of a game company.
if anything, raiders would have to comprise the weakest subset of a playerbase. pvp requires you to be able to react dynamically to the actions of other players. smaller dungeons (say 6-8 man, whatever a normal group size would be) would also require the players to have more skill, as they don't have half a dozen "healers" (or anything else 6-20 deep).
raiding requires a lot of time in most cases, or the ability to put up with 39 egoes on vent for hours on end. it also requires the ability to sit for hours, repeating the same content, over and over and over again.
it's just as farmable as anything else in an mmo, you just have a lot more people to do it with.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I am in total agreement with you on this one.
Thats the idea I was trying to get across. You could have smaller encounters that are equally or even more challenging.