God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
Whats funny is the MMO genre is heading more twords the casual player. So what are you as an eliteist going to do when your precious "I'm better than you raids" are taken away? Take away raids from WoW. Verry casual game. LOTRO? Again, extreemly casual game. AoC? Well....we dont really know yet. WAR? Public quests....short RvR....again the elitests are going to be left out. Looks like your the one that needs to start looking at a diffrent genre.
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
I would disagree. P2P MMO's are for whoever pays to play them. The goal is to get as many people as possible to pay to play. Most people can't dedicate the time necessary to be "hardcore". There are just more important things that need to be done. Doesn't mean they don't like the type of game, just means they are forced to play it differently.
If you can make 1000 people happy to pay for your game, but piss 10 people off so much that they won't pay, who cares? It makes good business sense to do so. Oh no! You just lost the hardcore market but you gained the casual market which is probably at least 100 times as large.
It may be best to remember that video games are a business. Whatever makes the most money (a direct result of making the most people happy) is the best decision that can be made.
Sorry to ruin "your" game... actually, no I'm not. I'm going to have fun playing.
About the only time I liked raiding an such was things like DAoC's raids for stuff like ML's/Arty credit (after the change). Because everyone doing it got credit. Didnt have to spend hours and hours in a raid group an hope you got the drop/won the roll on the drop.
Clearly, the best solution is for a game that offers rewards for both the casual player and the hardcore gamer. This makes more people overall happy, and garners the company that does so successfully more cash.
Guild Wars was one that did that pretty well. Another? City of Heroes, with their Sidekick system, allowed Casual Players to play with the Hardcore players.
Originally posted by XImpalerX Casual = Hardcore Over Time. Casual raids once a week. Hardcore raids 5 times a week. Casual is uber in 5 weeks. Hardcore is uber in 1 week. I dont see any reason to complain from either side. Hardcore players are happy getting loot quickly. Casual players are happy to getting loot once a week and then crying over it because the hardcore is in full epics. MMO's have always favored players with more time to play the game. it is only the recent uproar of whining from casuals birthed from WoW that this debate stems from.
The recent uproar of whining?
I dont think it has anyting to do with whining. WoW reached a bigger fan base than any previous mmo had done to date. A more diverse fanbase will naturally want different things. Time has been and will continute to be a very precious commodity.
Are you married? Ever had your wife bitch about how much time youve spent playing your game of choice? Do you think WoWs raiding system helps?
The BS started with EQ if you ask me and fed right into WoW. I havent played Ultima, but from my friends have said, raiding wasnt such a huge part of the game. Raiding wasnt a huge part of Shadowbane, Dark Ages of Camelot and many other games to date.
And regardless, say you are right, and that mmos have always favored people with more time (naturally I disagree), WHO CARES.
All things change in time and hopefully this will too.
MMORPG's will always reward long term players who have put the most time in.
Take someone who has practiced guitar 6 hours a day ,7 days a week, for 1 year. Hes hardcore.
Take someone who plays guitar 1 hour a day, 2 days a week, 1 year. He's Casual
Assuming both are equally gifted, the hardcore player will progress faster in his training over the casual.
Casual says to Hardcore "Hey thats not fair, just because you trained harder than me, doesnt mean you should be better than me. Boo-Hoo." Your right here you go well give you a pass.
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.
God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.
God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
I don't understand how a 5 hr dungeon requires more intelligence than a 1 hr one...
And besides, I have nothing against 5 or 15 or 25 hr dungeons, just as long as I am able to a) actually see them and b) get some kind of reward if i only play one hour there.
And in addition, sometimes I put in at least as much time into a game as your average no-lifer. However I want to spend this time playing and having fun, rather than grinding for raid supplies or playing guild politics to get a spot in a raid. Been there done that but now I'm too old for that crap.
I'm sure that the ratio of time played vs time having fun in my raiding guild was approximately 3:1 or even 4:1. I had to f***ing work in order to have a shot at maybe having some fun. Never again. Never!
Casual = Hardcore Over Time. Casual raids once a week. Hardcore raids 5 times a week. Casual is uber in 5 weeks. Hardcore is uber in 1 week. I dont see any reason to complain from either side. Hardcore players are happy getting loot quickly. Casual players are happy to getting loot once a week and then crying over it because the hardcore is in full epics. MMO's have always favored players with more time to play the game. it is only the recent uproar of whining from casuals birthed from WoW that this debate stems from.
See this is what pisses me off about raiders..raiders assume they're hardcore because..they raid..and anyone who doesn't raid 5 times a week is casual. Most true casual players don't want to raid they just want to see the content. Most true hardcore players don't need to raid they just want to experience the game figure out all the best ways to do things etc, but when a game is based entirely on crappy frakking loot (cough wow) raiders become the only version of Hardcore allowed. Totally crap way to run a game in my opinion which is why WoW even started renigging and giving casuals and non raid centric people things to do at end game.
Everyone pays for the content everyone should be able to see said content but the addition of raids ala EQ1 / WoW that require certain gear sets etc to finish and 25+ people in order to do them added content into games that everyone is paying for but only 10 to maybe 15 percent of the population will ever see. I'm more than thankful that WAR is essentially doing away with such retarded nonsense. I enjoy playing MMOs alot but the moment the whole "the only thing left to do is PvE raid" comes into play I get immediately turned off to an MMO.
btw the concept that casuals complain due to time is only a small portion of the casuals and most of them only complained because of the addition of Raids suddenly upping a game that was made for frakking casuals in the first place. Infact I think most of the blame it on the casual excuses are actually completely fabricated lies since most casuals accept the fact that a hardcore player is always going to have the bigger and badder items & skills long before they do.
Casuals want the same oppertunties..raids have never been a balanced system between casual & hardcore players oppertunity wise. You can't deny the fact that casuals can't just log on and make a 24 man pug and make it through a raid..if they could there wouldn't be a balance issue.
Raiders = lemmings.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
WHAT? when i played WOW it took over a year and Half to get into a raiding guild because the Hradcore core crowd wanted my gear a partucular way, my talents a particular way, and worst of all they limited the amount of ppl in the guild so they could ge tthier stuff 1st! :-(
At that Point i finally found a raiding guild that allowed for the way i wanted to play.
Im soooooooo glad WAR is coming along. It wil satisfy both the casual gamer and the Hardcore uber gear dude. I for one play both sides. there are times when i just wanna jam around with a friend and times when ill want to siege a castle. :-)
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR. Playing EVE Online and AOC. Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
How else would you suggest developers distribute great gear? Do away with gear all together? Boring.
Make everyone equal? Boring. Make scenarios that last 30 minutes and give you the best gear in the game? this falls under making everyone equal. Boring. The fact is everything in life pertaining to a hobby or art has "casuals" and "hardcore." The hardcore love what they are doing. The casuals do it for fun and dont care if they become great.
There will always be someone who dedicates more time, is faster, better, stronger, and more wise than you. Thats how the world works and thats how fake worlds should work to.
" Waaaa I only play football for fun, its not fair that the guys on T.V. are that good and make millions of dollars. I hope this changes in the future because its not fair." I pay for the football and pads just like they do." Cry me a fkn river.
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
Wow you're an arrogant p----- aren't you? I've played every MMO starting with EQ pre xpacks. I'll out play you any day of the week kiddo. I CAN and do play hours at a time, I just have no desire to raid the same instance 20 times in hopes I get my one piece of gear to so I can do the next one. Been there, done that sick of that sort fo game play. "Oh hey guys, yeah I'd LOVE to go do that tonight, but I have a raid and if I am not there I lose DKP so I can't" Isn't hardcore, it's pathetic.
That does NOT make me a lesser player, it makes me a player with a LIFE.
I'm hoping WAR doesn't require me to meet the demands of people like YOU to progress, and enjoy the game. If I have to spend 3-5 days a week, hours at a time with your kind in the same situation I'll quit and go play GTAIV.
How else would you suggest developers distribute great gear? Do away with gear all together? Boring. Make everyone equal? Boring. Make scenarios that last 30 minutes and give you the best gear in the game? this falls under making everyone equal. Boring. The fact is everything in life pertaining to a hobby or art has "casuals" and "hardcore." The hardcore love what they are doing. The casuals do it for fun and dont care if they become great. There will always be someone who dedicates more time, is faster, better, stronger, and more wise than you. Thats how the world works and thats how fake worlds should work to.
" Waaaa I only play football for fun, its not fair that the guys on T.V. are that good and make millions of dollars. I hope this changes in the future because its not fair." I pay for the football and pads just like they do." Cry me a fkn river.
You're one of those players the rest of laugh at. You think you are somebody cause you WASTE weeks at a time running high end instances... we COULD we choose NOT to waste such time. If the game doesn't offer a path of achievement that requires your idea of good gaming, no thanks. Blizz all ready did that and I'm sick of it.
Funny you should mention football, I actually played, for a state champion team, what did you do? Play NES?
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.
God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
What you want is Everquest.. it's called WoW, go play it. I hear the new 25 mans will fit your bill.
WAR will GASP have RVR that ISN'T set encounters.
"Okay guys, tank X we'll kill skull, make sure you keep moon and Square Sheeped, Warlocks, do your thing... Hey Elitibob! Where the hell is your Raidercompfordummies Addon? What od you MEAN you haven't loaded it yet??!? You're out, I got EliteJude she's got the add on, take his DKP points away for showing up!"
Yeah, that's hard core all right, real elite game play of skill...
WAR on the other hand GASP Each time you go into earn your RVR it will be different, GASP! You do a PQ and YOU DON'T GET TO BE IN CHARGE! I can't wait.
WoW will live on with you uber raiders, the rest of us will be having FUN.
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.
God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
What you want is Everquest.. it's called WoW, go play it. I hear the new 25 mans will fit your bill.
WAR will GASP have RVR that ISN'T set encounters.
"Okay guys, tank X we'll kill skull, make sure you keep moon and Square Sheeped, Warlocks, do your thing... Hey Elitibob! Where the hell is your Raidercompfordummies Addon? What od you MEAN you haven't loaded it yet??!? You're out, I got EliteJude she's got the add on, take his DKP points away for showing up!"
Yeah, that's hard core all right, real elite game play of skill...
WAR on the other hand GASP Each time you go into earn your RVR it will be different, GASP! You do a PQ and YOU DON'T GET TO BE IN CHARGE! I can't wait.
WoW will live on with you uber raiders, the rest of us will be having FUN.
Not to bust your dream here but the whole game of WAR is a "setup encounter". Unless they've given us multiple ways to reach the same goal of capturing their city? Don't think I've read anything about that though.
Capture the keeps, get a certain number of points from the scenario, move on to the next zone, rince and repeat till City. Capture, repeat everything from the beginning again.
Not to bust your dream here but the whole game of WAR is a "setup encounter". Unless they've given us multiple ways to reach the same goal of capturing their city? Don't think I've read anything about that though.
Capture the keeps, get a certain number of points from the scenario, move on to the next zone, rince and repeat till City. Capture, repeat everything from the beginning again.
Yeah, but it won't HAPPEN the same way each time. DAoC, the main objects were the same.. but the way each battle played out was different. The basics were there, but that was about it.
Not to bust your dream here but the whole game of WAR is a "setup encounter". Unless they've given us multiple ways to reach the same goal of capturing their city? Don't think I've read anything about that though.
Capture the keeps, get a certain number of points from the scenario, move on to the next zone, rince and repeat till City. Capture, repeat everything from the beginning again.
Oh my god something we can argue about awsomeness.
First off come on you know better than that..anything that involves Player Vs Player interaction is going to be a different experience each time even if its the same goal. Where one day the fortress may be protected by Maurders and Magus's the next day it could be a horde of dark elves. Its the diversity of the situation not the actual required encounter components that will keep the experience...to a point...refreshing.
yes the whole game is one set up giant encounter but very large parts of it rely on player interactions...that being said the game will take on one meaning one day and the next a whole nother one depending on who's logged on.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
There is room for both types of people in any game, and room for both types of content.
In WoW, I would never consider trying to join a raid. I would hate it, and the raiders would be annoyed at having me there. I don't want to do what it takes to be there, and I don't want to do the things you have to do once you're in.
Knowing this, I keep my distance. I'll stick to my 5-man instances, tyvm.
Likewise, I don't have to worry about loot-crazed maniacs trying to join my humble 5-man teams. They know they won't get anything out of it, so they don't waste their time.
So if you're getting pissed off about the "elitism" of raid groups, you might want to think about the logic of your actions. That uber purple drop might look tasty, but do you really need it? Not if you're a casual player.
Likewise, if you're a raider complaining about how n00bs are forcing developers to "dumb down" your games, get over yourself. These games couldn't exist at all without those n00bs paying the bills, so enjoy what you've got. If you've done everything and are geting bored, maybe it's time to dominate another game or (*gasp*) get a life.
How else would you suggest developers distribute great gear? Do away with gear all together? Boring. Make everyone equal? Boring. Make scenarios that last 30 minutes and give you the best gear in the game? this falls under making everyone equal. Boring. The fact is everything in life pertaining to a hobby or art has "casuals" and "hardcore." The hardcore love what they are doing. The casuals do it for fun and dont care if they become great. There will always be someone who dedicates more time, is faster, better, stronger, and more wise than you. Thats how the world works and thats how fake worlds should work to.
" Waaaa I only play football for fun, its not fair that the guys on T.V. are that good and make millions of dollars. I hope this changes in the future because its not fair." I pay for the football and pads just like they do." Cry me a fkn river.
You're one of those players the rest of laugh at. You think you are somebody cause you WASTE weeks at a time running high end instances... we COULD we choose NOT to waste such time. If the game doesn't offer a path of achievement that requires your idea of good gaming, no thanks. Blizz all ready did that and I'm sick of it.
Funny you should mention football, I actually played, for a state champion team, what did you do? Play NES?
Funny you didn't answer any of the issues or ideas I stated. Just goes to show that im right when you cant prove me wrong and have to resort to personal attacks.
As far as what do I do..I would run circles around you.
Piano - 12 years
Guitar - 14 years
Skateboarder - 8 years
Singing - 4 years
United States Airforce - 4 years
Computer Tech - 1 year
Electronic Music production - in progress
HotorNot rating - 9.5
Shall i continue?
I do agree that Wasting time playing an MMO "hardcore" gives you nothing in life and the time can be spent doing better things. But if we take a step back and look at all popular MMO's to date, they have always rewarded time spent over casual play. Even if there was a Casual only MMO, I cant imagine how it would work when everyone is equal. Might as well stick to the plethora of games and genres that are already casual. I mean if you spend 2-3 hours a day leveling up and then once you hit end game you dont want to spend 2-3 hours stuck in a instance, becuase your group is wiping over and over and 2-3 hours turns into all night I see your point. The guild I was in when I played WoW almost always one shotted bosses and we were in and out. I always play healer/buffer classes so that may be why I never had any problem getting into good solid guilds.
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
Vanguard is anything but casual if you knew anything about games..youd know that Vanguard is basically Everquest 1 Redux..and its actually harder. Even putting it in the same list as casual games is like ...offensive to a game thats already been beaten like a redhead step child.
Second Life hardcore? ROFL! Its not even a frakking Game!
You astound me...Please don't play WAR......its not going to be Elite enough for you.
Is it so hard for you to grasp that without non Raiders players ...the kind that don't whine that enjoy what is offered...MMOs wouldn't exist..there's not enough Raiders in the world to keep games a live. Is it to hard for you to grasp that Raiders are not the only hardcore players. That it is essentially unfair to everyone else that Raiders are heavily catered to in some games. Infact the only game they're super catered to until recentally was WoW..even EQ1 and EQ2 had other things to do to keep people happy. WoW doesn't everything Centers around Raiding or Arenas and thast a shitty endgame design.
btw if hardcore basically only equals raiders that makes you happy lil lemmings nothing but gear grind whores who completely pollute the game gene pool.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
What is so hardcore about Vanguard once you hit the level cap? Their is what 1 raid in the game?
You must have missed the point I made when listing the casual games. I said that i dont know anything about them and JUDGE them to be casual. Last I heard Vanguard is fast leveling with little to no end game content.
So your saying that WoW = hardcore and that the 11 million people that suscribe to it play it becuase it caters to casual play? if it wasn't for the hardcore community supporting MMO development, the casual would have nothing to play.
Take out raiding from WoW and whats left? hardcore BG grinding and arena gameplay. So unless raids take 30 minutes to complete and PvP rewards everyone equally, casual play will never be adopted in end game play. hell just to level a character to Max level in any game but WoW is hardcore.
It's funny that WoW is the MMO that requires the least amount of time to progress to level cap and its still too hardcore for you. LOTRO is more hardcore than WoW and thats not saying much.
Comments
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
Whats funny is the MMO genre is heading more twords the casual player. So what are you as an eliteist going to do when your precious "I'm better than you raids" are taken away? Take away raids from WoW. Verry casual game. LOTRO? Again, extreemly casual game. AoC? Well....we dont really know yet. WAR? Public quests....short RvR....again the elitests are going to be left out. Looks like your the one that needs to start looking at a diffrent genre.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
I would disagree. P2P MMO's are for whoever pays to play them. The goal is to get as many people as possible to pay to play. Most people can't dedicate the time necessary to be "hardcore". There are just more important things that need to be done. Doesn't mean they don't like the type of game, just means they are forced to play it differently.
If you can make 1000 people happy to pay for your game, but piss 10 people off so much that they won't pay, who cares? It makes good business sense to do so. Oh no! You just lost the hardcore market but you gained the casual market which is probably at least 100 times as large.
It may be best to remember that video games are a business. Whatever makes the most money (a direct result of making the most people happy) is the best decision that can be made.
Sorry to ruin "your" game... actually, no I'm not. I'm going to have fun playing.
About the only time I liked raiding an such was things like DAoC's raids for stuff like ML's/Arty credit (after the change). Because everyone doing it got credit. Didnt have to spend hours and hours in a raid group an hope you got the drop/won the roll on the drop.
Clearly, the best solution is for a game that offers rewards for both the casual player and the hardcore gamer. This makes more people overall happy, and garners the company that does so successfully more cash.
Guild Wars was one that did that pretty well. Another? City of Heroes, with their Sidekick system, allowed Casual Players to play with the Hardcore players.
The recent uproar of whining?
I dont think it has anyting to do with whining. WoW reached a bigger fan base than any previous mmo had done to date. A more diverse fanbase will naturally want different things. Time has been and will continute to be a very precious commodity.
Are you married? Ever had your wife bitch about how much time youve spent playing your game of choice? Do you think WoWs raiding system helps?
The BS started with EQ if you ask me and fed right into WoW. I havent played Ultima, but from my friends have said, raiding wasnt such a huge part of the game. Raiding wasnt a huge part of Shadowbane, Dark Ages of Camelot and many other games to date.
And regardless, say you are right, and that mmos have always favored people with more time (naturally I disagree), WHO CARES.
All things change in time and hopefully this will too.
MMORPG's will always reward long term players who have put the most time in.
Take someone who has practiced guitar 6 hours a day ,7 days a week, for 1 year. Hes hardcore.
Take someone who plays guitar 1 hour a day, 2 days a week, 1 year. He's Casual
Assuming both are equally gifted, the hardcore player will progress faster in his training over the casual.
Casual says to Hardcore "Hey thats not fair, just because you trained harder than me, doesnt mean you should be better than me. Boo-Hoo." Your right here you go well give you a pass.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
I don't understand how a 5 hr dungeon requires more intelligence than a 1 hr one...
And besides, I have nothing against 5 or 15 or 25 hr dungeons, just as long as I am able to a) actually see them and b) get some kind of reward if i only play one hour there.
And in addition, sometimes I put in at least as much time into a game as your average no-lifer. However I want to spend this time playing and having fun, rather than grinding for raid supplies or playing guild politics to get a spot in a raid. Been there done that but now I'm too old for that crap.
I'm sure that the ratio of time played vs time having fun in my raiding guild was approximately 3:1 or even 4:1. I had to f***ing work in order to have a shot at maybe having some fun. Never again. Never!
See this is what pisses me off about raiders..raiders assume they're hardcore because..they raid..and anyone who doesn't raid 5 times a week is casual. Most true casual players don't want to raid they just want to see the content. Most true hardcore players don't need to raid they just want to experience the game figure out all the best ways to do things etc, but when a game is based entirely on crappy frakking loot (cough wow) raiders become the only version of Hardcore allowed. Totally crap way to run a game in my opinion which is why WoW even started renigging and giving casuals and non raid centric people things to do at end game.
Everyone pays for the content everyone should be able to see said content but the addition of raids ala EQ1 / WoW that require certain gear sets etc to finish and 25+ people in order to do them added content into games that everyone is paying for but only 10 to maybe 15 percent of the population will ever see. I'm more than thankful that WAR is essentially doing away with such retarded nonsense. I enjoy playing MMOs alot but the moment the whole "the only thing left to do is PvE raid" comes into play I get immediately turned off to an MMO.
btw the concept that casuals complain due to time is only a small portion of the casuals and most of them only complained because of the addition of Raids suddenly upping a game that was made for frakking casuals in the first place. Infact I think most of the blame it on the casual excuses are actually completely fabricated lies since most casuals accept the fact that a hardcore player is always going to have the bigger and badder items & skills long before they do.
Casuals want the same oppertunties..raids have never been a balanced system between casual & hardcore players oppertunity wise. You can't deny the fact that casuals can't just log on and make a 24 man pug and make it through a raid..if they could there wouldn't be a balance issue.
Raiders = lemmings.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Originally posted by altairzq
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
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WHAT? when i played WOW it took over a year and Half to get into a raiding guild because the Hradcore core crowd wanted my gear a partucular way, my talents a particular way, and worst of all they limited the amount of ppl in the guild so they could ge tthier stuff 1st! :-(
At that Point i finally found a raiding guild that allowed for the way i wanted to play.
Im soooooooo glad WAR is coming along. It wil satisfy both the casual gamer and the Hardcore uber gear dude. I for one play both sides. there are times when i just wanna jam around with a friend and times when ill want to siege a castle. :-)
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
How else would you suggest developers distribute great gear? Do away with gear all together? Boring.
Make everyone equal? Boring. Make scenarios that last 30 minutes and give you the best gear in the game? this falls under making everyone equal. Boring. The fact is everything in life pertaining to a hobby or art has "casuals" and "hardcore." The hardcore love what they are doing. The casuals do it for fun and dont care if they become great.
There will always be someone who dedicates more time, is faster, better, stronger, and more wise than you. Thats how the world works and thats how fake worlds should work to.
" Waaaa I only play football for fun, its not fair that the guys on T.V. are that good and make millions of dollars. I hope this changes in the future because its not fair." I pay for the football and pads just like they do." Cry me a fkn river.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
Go play a diferent genre. MMO's arent for you.
Call of Duty 4 would fit your schedule better imo.
Wow you're an arrogant p----- aren't you? I've played every MMO starting with EQ pre xpacks. I'll out play you any day of the week kiddo. I CAN and do play hours at a time, I just have no desire to raid the same instance 20 times in hopes I get my one piece of gear to so I can do the next one. Been there, done that sick of that sort fo game play. "Oh hey guys, yeah I'd LOVE to go do that tonight, but I have a raid and if I am not there I lose DKP so I can't" Isn't hardcore, it's pathetic.That does NOT make me a lesser player, it makes me a player with a LIFE.
I'm hoping WAR doesn't require me to meet the demands of people like YOU to progress, and enjoy the game. If I have to spend 3-5 days a week, hours at a time with your kind in the same situation I'll quit and go play GTAIV.
Always change your signature.
Funny you should mention football, I actually played, for a state champion team, what did you do? Play NES?
Always change your signature.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
What you want is Everquest.. it's called WoW, go play it. I hear the new 25 mans will fit your bill.WAR will GASP have RVR that ISN'T set encounters.
"Okay guys, tank X we'll kill skull, make sure you keep moon and Square Sheeped, Warlocks, do your thing... Hey Elitibob! Where the hell is your Raidercompfordummies Addon? What od you MEAN you haven't loaded it yet??!? You're out, I got EliteJude she's got the add on, take his DKP points away for showing up!"
Yeah, that's hard core all right, real elite game play of skill...
WAR on the other hand GASP Each time you go into earn your RVR it will be different, GASP! You do a PQ and YOU DON'T GET TO BE IN CHARGE! I can't wait.
WoW will live on with you uber raiders, the rest of us will be having FUN.
Always change your signature.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
What you want is Everquest.. it's called WoW, go play it. I hear the new 25 mans will fit your bill.WAR will GASP have RVR that ISN'T set encounters.
"Okay guys, tank X we'll kill skull, make sure you keep moon and Square Sheeped, Warlocks, do your thing... Hey Elitibob! Where the hell is your Raidercompfordummies Addon? What od you MEAN you haven't loaded it yet??!? You're out, I got EliteJude she's got the add on, take his DKP points away for showing up!"
Yeah, that's hard core all right, real elite game play of skill...
WAR on the other hand GASP Each time you go into earn your RVR it will be different, GASP! You do a PQ and YOU DON'T GET TO BE IN CHARGE! I can't wait.
WoW will live on with you uber raiders, the rest of us will be having FUN.
Not to bust your dream here but the whole game of WAR is a "setup encounter". Unless they've given us multiple ways to reach the same goal of capturing their city? Don't think I've read anything about that though.
Capture the keeps, get a certain number of points from the scenario, move on to the next zone, rince and repeat till City. Capture, repeat everything from the beginning again.
Not to bust your dream here but the whole game of WAR is a "setup encounter". Unless they've given us multiple ways to reach the same goal of capturing their city? Don't think I've read anything about that though.
Capture the keeps, get a certain number of points from the scenario, move on to the next zone, rince and repeat till City. Capture, repeat everything from the beginning again.
Yeah, but it won't HAPPEN the same way each time. DAoC, the main objects were the same.. but the way each battle played out was different. The basics were there, but that was about it.
Always change your signature.
First off come on you know better than that..anything that involves Player Vs Player interaction is going to be a different experience each time even if its the same goal. Where one day the fortress may be protected by Maurders and Magus's the next day it could be a horde of dark elves. Its the diversity of the situation not the actual required encounter components that will keep the experience...to a point...refreshing.
yes the whole game is one set up giant encounter but very large parts of it rely on player interactions...that being said the game will take on one meaning one day and the next a whole nother one depending on who's logged on.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I really don't underestand all the hostility.
There is room for both types of people in any game, and room for both types of content.
In WoW, I would never consider trying to join a raid. I would hate it, and the raiders would be annoyed at having me there. I don't want to do what it takes to be there, and I don't want to do the things you have to do once you're in.
Knowing this, I keep my distance. I'll stick to my 5-man instances, tyvm.
Likewise, I don't have to worry about loot-crazed maniacs trying to join my humble 5-man teams. They know they won't get anything out of it, so they don't waste their time.
So if you're getting pissed off about the "elitism" of raid groups, you might want to think about the logic of your actions. That uber purple drop might look tasty, but do you really need it? Not if you're a casual player.
Likewise, if you're a raider complaining about how n00bs are forcing developers to "dumb down" your games, get over yourself. These games couldn't exist at all without those n00bs paying the bills, so enjoy what you've got. If you've done everything and are geting bored, maybe it's time to dominate another game or (*gasp*) get a life.
Funny you should mention football, I actually played, for a state champion team, what did you do? Play NES?
Funny you didn't answer any of the issues or ideas I stated. Just goes to show that im right when you cant prove me wrong and have to resort to personal attacks.
As far as what do I do..I would run circles around you.
Piano - 12 years
Guitar - 14 years
Skateboarder - 8 years
Singing - 4 years
United States Airforce - 4 years
Computer Tech - 1 year
Electronic Music production - in progress
HotorNot rating - 9.5
Shall i continue?
I do agree that Wasting time playing an MMO "hardcore" gives you nothing in life and the time can be spent doing better things. But if we take a step back and look at all popular MMO's to date, they have always rewarded time spent over casual play. Even if there was a Casual only MMO, I cant imagine how it would work when everyone is equal. Might as well stick to the plethora of games and genres that are already casual. I mean if you spend 2-3 hours a day leveling up and then once you hit end game you dont want to spend 2-3 hours stuck in a instance, becuase your group is wiping over and over and 2-3 hours turns into all night I see your point. The guild I was in when I played WoW almost always one shotted bosses and we were in and out. I always play healer/buffer classes so that may be why I never had any problem getting into good solid guilds.
10 years US Navy.
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
Always change your signature.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
Vanguard is anything but casual if you knew anything about games..youd know that Vanguard is basically Everquest 1 Redux..and its actually harder. Even putting it in the same list as casual games is like ...offensive to a game thats already been beaten like a redhead step child.
Second Life hardcore? ROFL! Its not even a frakking Game!
You astound me...Please don't play WAR......its not going to be Elite enough for you.
Is it so hard for you to grasp that without non Raiders players ...the kind that don't whine that enjoy what is offered...MMOs wouldn't exist..there's not enough Raiders in the world to keep games a live. Is it to hard for you to grasp that Raiders are not the only hardcore players. That it is essentially unfair to everyone else that Raiders are heavily catered to in some games. Infact the only game they're super catered to until recentally was WoW..even EQ1 and EQ2 had other things to do to keep people happy. WoW doesn't everything Centers around Raiding or Arenas and thast a shitty endgame design.
btw if hardcore basically only equals raiders that makes you happy lil lemmings nothing but gear grind whores who completely pollute the game gene pool.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
What is so hardcore about Vanguard once you hit the level cap? Their is what 1 raid in the game?
You must have missed the point I made when listing the casual games. I said that i dont know anything about them and JUDGE them to be casual. Last I heard Vanguard is fast leveling with little to no end game content.
So your saying that WoW = hardcore and that the 11 million people that suscribe to it play it becuase it caters to casual play? if it wasn't for the hardcore community supporting MMO development, the casual would have nothing to play.
Take out raiding from WoW and whats left? hardcore BG grinding and arena gameplay. So unless raids take 30 minutes to complete and PvP rewards everyone equally, casual play will never be adopted in end game play. hell just to level a character to Max level in any game but WoW is hardcore.
It's funny that WoW is the MMO that requires the least amount of time to progress to level cap and its still too hardcore for you. LOTRO is more hardcore than WoW and thats not saying much.
Your version of Hardcore / Casual is only baalanced as Raiders vs Everyone else which is NOT what Hardcore generally means.
God raiders..can't figure anything out without someone directing them on how to do things.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!