It's very easy to chastise those who are against the concept of permadeath.
It's much more difficult, and far more useful, to say something to convince them they are wrong.
As others have said, simply grafting permadeath into existing MMOs is not something that will work for 99.999% of current MMO players. If no one wants to play a game, no one will make it, because it is very expensive to make MMOs, and no one will do it if they can't expect a reasonable return on their investment.
For it to work, you need to change the entire nature of the games.
So instead of ranting about what idiots we are for being against permadeath, show us what a genius YOU are by telling us your brilliant ideas for making PD work for more that an absurdly narrow segment of the gaming population.
I'll start you off with a few questions:
If I die in your utopian Permadeath game, what is going to keep me from having to spend months slogging through all the same content I already completed in order to get back where I left off?
Would your permadeath game even have levels?
Would the content be a lot easier, so I wouldn't be expected to die 3-4 times a day in the most difficult areas?
Would it be so easy that it would be boring?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I believe a better solution is a heavy death penalty like EQ. Instead of losing your char you just lose a lot of Exp and eventually can delevel if you die to much.
Even the UO death penalty was better then permadeth. Having your corpse open for looting until you can find someone to rez you and get back to your corpse is better then having the character deleted and is pretty darn painful as well.
In the end I just don't think there is reason to have your character deleted in a game upon death. That seems a bit pointless for games centered around buildnig your character. Permadeth is for fast actuion single player games like FPSs.
Originally posted by Hobbes3011 -Majority of area maybe safe (pve only ect) like cities and towns, while outer areas or selected areas between towns able to be attacked so could be plauged by bandit roleplayers and those wishing to brave death to find greater treasures.
i agree with everything except for this, if this were to happen, groups of players who hate the permadeath aspect will start complaining, if the game were to revolve around the concept, then towns might be safe (or not) but the majority of area should be pk areas, and certain places should be destined for pve, but there should be less levels and easier to obtain so as to put a lower emphasis on pve, and pvp should also require a certain amout of skill so mid-level players should also be able to kill more powerful players
Hellgate: London has a permadeath mode called "Hardcore". It's optional and doesn't require a separate server. The hardcore community is great. You must pay the $9.99/month subscription fee to access hardcore mode. Many like me wouldn't play the game without permadeath.
I wish I had a statistic for what percentage of the players choose the hardcore mode. If I had to guess I'd say about 20%. That's not enough players for a permadeath-only game. But if a game had 5 or more servers then a permadeath server might work fine.
Originally posted by talismen351 Any game you can play Permadeath really. You die you log out n delete your char...viola permadeath. As stated in another post...if it was full pvp then all you would get is a bunch of low lvlers ganking newbies as they enter the world...how much fun would that be. " Create new char....step into wonderful new world....oops ganked...dead...Create new character....step into wonderful new world...oops ganked... dead....Create a new........and it goes on" Unless it was of course a total PvE world then that wouldn't happen...but I imagine those that would want permadeath would want the FFA PvP servers.
One reason you don't see permadeath games or even servers is that one is more likely to quit a game after one their characters die. Imagine you have a character live for a couple months or longer die for a stupid reason- lag or poweroutage or whatever that would be the point where a significant number of subscribers threw up their hands and said hell with this game.
Perma death is a really bad idea. Getting ganked and be able to come back to die again is painful already. But perma death would just depress the crap out of most players and lead to quitting.
It seems like a lot of you are looking at a Permadeath game through the lens of current mmo's and fps games, where character death is a relatively often occurrence. I don't think the specter of death needs to loom this large in order to add the kind of depth to a game that permadeath can bring. Just the fact that the possibility exists for permanently losing a character can be enough to bring an added level of excitement to the game.
You could have alternate forms of defeat not generally seen (or represented well) in current mmorpgs – such as characters being knocked unconscious and taken prisoner by NPCs/Mobs. This can in-and-of itself add a lot of story and depth to the game. Or having wounded characters show the effects of their damage, a limp arm that can no longer hold a shield, or a shattered knee that severely hampers the character's maneuverability can be an indicator that they need to seek healing soon, or else face the consequences of losing their character.
Also, the level/item grind would have to be seriously reworked. You can't expect people to grind away at the same character for months on end, or to raid for countless hours for gear that may be lost. Character skill needs to grow at a relatively accelerated rate compared to current mmo's, so that the player feels like they're always in the action, and encounters are appropriate for their current “level”. In essence, emphasize “fun” over tedium.
There's also no reason that all your time and effort needs to be lost in such a game, where accomplishments received or unlocked with one character, can be carried over or utilized by a new one. For example, unlocking a previously unplayable race or class. This way the gameplay always feels fresh and exciting, while at the same time rewarding players who've put in the time & effort to explore and play the game.
I am trying to use a perma-death set of rules, but it is HARD. I am doing the "Immersion Project" and it's the most fun I have ever have, period! And I've been playing since '99.
IS it for everyone? Nope. I only get to play between 2-4 hours in a session, but even if I don't conquer a whole dungeon or kill a dragon doesn't mean I don't get things done. I travel a lot by boat, horse or foot, only. I don't use riftways or speedy travel. Here all the info...go to the "Immersion" section:
Anyway, try it on an alt. My main actually recently DIED!! I really miss the lil guy so instead of deleting him (I got so many messages telling me not too) I was going to keep him buried for 2 months and rez him after his cousin (an alt) gathered together a certain amount of people to rez him.
Keep in mind I am not the type to say "I wish this on everyone.." Not at all. In fact, I love the fact that some people can play in a more "normal" way along side me. The world of Vanguard is full of choices!
Anyway, perma death, to be totally implemented, would really have to have the game almost designed AROUND it to be really successfull...at least my dead lil Raki thinks so.
Beau
Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro
LOL .. another permadeath rant. YOU should get over it.
It is obviously opposite to the trend of MMORPGs and I highly doubt any major MMO developer will embrace the idea.
You can whine but at the end of the day, MMORPGs are games & entertainment, and people don't want hard work at their entertainment. And if you don't like all the new MMOs catered to the casuals, you can always quit and do something else.
I don't think the millions and millions of current MMORPG players will miss you.
Anybody else get a kick out of this thread being raised from the dead?
Right now the only way to get permadeath in your MMO's is to either play Hellgate/Mythos/Diablo, or start a guild.
Developers are not going to make a game with permadeath as a main focus if other current games can't even get enough player support for a guild let alone a server for it. If you want to try a permadeath guild in your game check out these DDO permadeath guild website and see how you can apply what worked for them to your game:
the OP is asking for one or a couple good games with permadeath, not to change every single actual and upcoming game to fit his desires.
why would you all crybabies care if there are 1 or 3 games like that? you'd still have your 700 games to cry everytime you lose 0.543% exp per death
a good game with a balanced leveling system where permadeath could fit (no ganking,no uber mobs that 1hit you,strategy and reasoning over level and gear) would be greatly welcomed by the few of us with a minimal trace of guts and competitive playing. but thats something that 85% of the morons in this thread will never understand.
I played a few permadeath games (PD). Starport, wasn;t a PD game per se however on most servers they actually wipe the server after a set duration and declare a winner. This way it takes all pure player skill to win an era. No player or death can force you to PD. But it's a good form of it and was popular the PD servers were pretty populated. but I think ther permenant server had more players
HAZE, a NWN2 player run server had straight up iron man Permadeath. Was a roleplaying server with open pvp (but really it was consentual some what can only PD another for roleplay reasons). Was a sandbox of a sort. I had fun but didnt enjoy time based XP. check it out.
PD is around on NWN2 servers just look around. Goggle HAZE for neverwinter nights 2 to look them up
For those that say play any MMO and delete your char when you die..... Its about having a perma-death environment, everyone has to be in the same boat.
And anti-PD'rs, please please try and remember that you wont be forced to play these games (if they were ever to exist). I hope Diablo3 does have PD.... that'll be something.
Yeah shame about Trials of Ascension, I agreed so much with their philosophy, its a pity they were so incredibly ambitious in what they were trying to achieve.
Good post Geld. <hugs all the other pro perma-death people> For those that say play any MMO and delete your char when you die..... Its about having a perma-death environment, everyone has to be in the same boat. And anti-PD'rs, please please try and remember that you wont be forced to play these games (if they were ever to exist). I hope Diablo3 does have PD.... that'll be something. Yeah shame about Trials of Ascension, I agreed so much with their philosophy, its a pity they were so incredibly ambitious in what they were trying to achieve.
I totally agree with this. And as others have said repeatedly, it would also require totally changing the style of the game. The typical 2-wipes-per-run dungeons would not be suitable. PVP would be a serious problem. But whatever differences there were, a permadeath game could be fun if the character progression system and the content took into account that everybody was in the same boat.
In any case, I don't think people are ridiculing the OP because they all think PD is a bad idea in theory. But demanding a good PD game is kind of like demanding someone make a good MMO when LucasArts is involved. Ain't gonna happen, because the general sentiment about the concept is very negative.
OP: Would you pay $500 and $150 for a game that was built from the ground up as a PD game? Because I reckon that's what it'd cost you given the serious lack of interest.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Good post Geld. <hugs all the other pro perma-death people> For those that say play any MMO and delete your char when you die..... Its about having a perma-death environment, everyone has to be in the same boat. And anti-PD'rs, please please try and remember that you wont be forced to play these games (if they were ever to exist). I hope Diablo3 does have PD.... that'll be something. Yeah shame about Trials of Ascension, I agreed so much with their philosophy, its a pity they were so incredibly ambitious in what they were trying to achieve.
I totally agree with this. And as others have said repeatedly, it would also require totally changing the style of the game. The typical 2-wipes-per-run dungeons would not be suitable. PVP would be a serious problem. But whatever differences there were, a permadeath game could be fun if the character progression system and the content took into account that everybody was in the same boat.
In any case, I don't think people are ridiculing the OP because they all think PD is a bad idea in theory. But demanding a good PD game is kind of like demanding someone make a good MMO when LucasArts is involved. Ain't gonna happen, because the general sentiment about the concept is very negative.
OP: Would you pay $500 and $150 for a game that was built from the ground up as a PD game? Because I reckon that's what it'd cost you given the serious lack of interest.
I can fill in the blanks here based on what I've experienced:
1) Content shouldn't be redundant. Linear quest lines would bore people utterly because players will spend a lot of time in starter areas in a PD game. PD games thrive on player run servers because GMs can create fresh content. HAZE, for example, had no linear quests. Everything was dynamic
2) PVP - obviously you don;t want senseless griefing. So you need a ruleset that allows for players to evaluate risks + ways to knockout a player unconscious.
3) Dungeons do not exist in the PD games I've played. Not in the way you explained it. See, PD games are socializer heavens. Players spend a lot more time in town (depending on game setup). In case of HAZE creatures could PD you and GMs awarded you XP anyway. So you killed mobs based on need to defend friends and town. You didn;t grind mobs. All items were player created so we didn't need to risk life and limb in dungeons.
I think points #1 and #2 are the key differences on PD servers and pen and paper games. I suppose obviously you still see PD in Linear quest driven games but I haven't played those. I've only seen it on GM run servers. There are no doubt MUDs, asian mmo, Diablo, etc that used it to some effect but perhaps their atmosphere was tweaked differently
I'm not sure how bad I want PD to be honest I've enjoyed it on player run servers can't imagine it on a huge server with 5,000+ players. Maybe it can work. I dunno; no comment there I must add
Comments
It's very easy to chastise those who are against the concept of permadeath.
It's much more difficult, and far more useful, to say something to convince them they are wrong.
As others have said, simply grafting permadeath into existing MMOs is not something that will work for 99.999% of current MMO players. If no one wants to play a game, no one will make it, because it is very expensive to make MMOs, and no one will do it if they can't expect a reasonable return on their investment.
For it to work, you need to change the entire nature of the games.
So instead of ranting about what idiots we are for being against permadeath, show us what a genius YOU are by telling us your brilliant ideas for making PD work for more that an absurdly narrow segment of the gaming population.
I'll start you off with a few questions:
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Will permadeath allow me to tell an aspect of my characters story to other players in the online world? If not - it has no place in a MMORPG.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I believe a better solution is a heavy death penalty like EQ. Instead of losing your char you just lose a lot of Exp and eventually can delevel if you die to much.
Even the UO death penalty was better then permadeth. Having your corpse open for looting until you can find someone to rez you and get back to your corpse is better then having the character deleted and is pretty darn painful as well.
In the end I just don't think there is reason to have your character deleted in a game upon death. That seems a bit pointless for games centered around buildnig your character. Permadeth is for fast actuion single player games like FPSs.
i agree with everything except for this, if this were to happen, groups of players who hate the permadeath aspect will start complaining, if the game were to revolve around the concept, then towns might be safe (or not) but the majority of area should be pk areas, and certain places should be destined for pve, but there should be less levels and easier to obtain so as to put a lower emphasis on pve, and pvp should also require a certain amout of skill so mid-level players should also be able to kill more powerful players
MMORPGs need to get alot easyer before they can start geting harder.
An excellent permadeath game: Armageddon
Hellgate: London has a permadeath mode called "Hardcore". It's optional and doesn't require a separate server. The hardcore community is great. You must pay the $9.99/month subscription fee to access hardcore mode. Many like me wouldn't play the game without permadeath.
I wish I had a statistic for what percentage of the players choose the hardcore mode. If I had to guess I'd say about 20%. That's not enough players for a permadeath-only game. But if a game had 5 or more servers then a permadeath server might work fine.
QFE!
One reason you don't see permadeath games or even servers is that one is more likely to quit a game after one their characters die. Imagine you have a character live for a couple months or longer die for a stupid reason- lag or poweroutage or whatever that would be the point where a significant number of subscribers threw up their hands and said hell with this game.
Perma death is a really bad idea. Getting ganked and be able to come back to die again is painful already. But perma death would just depress the crap out of most players and lead to quitting.
It seems like a lot of you are looking at a Permadeath game through the lens of current mmo's and fps games, where character death is a relatively often occurrence. I don't think the specter of death needs to loom this large in order to add the kind of depth to a game that permadeath can bring. Just the fact that the possibility exists for permanently losing a character can be enough to bring an added level of excitement to the game.
You could have alternate forms of defeat not generally seen (or represented well) in current mmorpgs – such as characters being knocked unconscious and taken prisoner by NPCs/Mobs. This can in-and-of itself add a lot of story and depth to the game. Or having wounded characters show the effects of their damage, a limp arm that can no longer hold a shield, or a shattered knee that severely hampers the character's maneuverability can be an indicator that they need to seek healing soon, or else face the consequences of losing their character.
Also, the level/item grind would have to be seriously reworked. You can't expect people to grind away at the same character for months on end, or to raid for countless hours for gear that may be lost. Character skill needs to grow at a relatively accelerated rate compared to current mmo's, so that the player feels like they're always in the action, and encounters are appropriate for their current “level”. In essence, emphasize “fun” over tedium.
There's also no reason that all your time and effort needs to be lost in such a game, where accomplishments received or unlocked with one character, can be carried over or utilized by a new one. For example, unlocking a previously unplayable race or class. This way the gameplay always feels fresh and exciting, while at the same time rewarding players who've put in the time & effort to explore and play the game.
Just my two cents.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of whining babies like the OP who demand that permadeath be imposed on everyone in an MMORPG.
You always have the option of rerolling your toon if you die.
Your problem is that you can't impose your idea of "fun" and "challenge" on everyone else playing the game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I am trying to use a perma-death set of rules, but it is HARD. I am doing the "Immersion Project" and it's the most fun I have ever have, period! And I've been playing since '99.
IS it for everyone? Nope. I only get to play between 2-4 hours in a session, but even if I don't conquer a whole dungeon or kill a dragon doesn't mean I don't get things done. I travel a lot by boat, horse or foot, only. I don't use riftways or speedy travel. Here all the info...go to the "Immersion" section:
www.voyagesofvanguard.com
Anyway, try it on an alt. My main actually recently DIED!!
I really miss the lil guy so instead of deleting him (I got so many messages telling me not too) I was going to keep him buried for 2 months and rez him after his cousin (an alt) gathered together a certain amount of people to rez him.
Keep in mind I am not the type to say "I wish this on everyone.." Not at all. In fact, I love the fact that some people can play in a more "normal" way along side me. The world of Vanguard is full of choices!
Anyway, perma death, to be totally implemented, would really have to have the game almost designed AROUND it to be really successfull...at least my dead lil Raki thinks so.
Beau
Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro
LOL .. another permadeath rant. YOU should get over it.
It is obviously opposite to the trend of MMORPGs and I highly doubt any major MMO developer will embrace the idea.
You can whine but at the end of the day, MMORPGs are games & entertainment, and people don't want hard work at their entertainment. And if you don't like all the new MMOs catered to the casuals, you can always quit and do something else.
I don't think the millions and millions of current MMORPG players will miss you.
Anybody else get a kick out of this thread being raised from the dead?
Right now the only way to get permadeath in your MMO's is to either play Hellgate/Mythos/Diablo, or start a guild.
Developers are not going to make a game with permadeath as a main focus if other current games can't even get enough player support for a guild let alone a server for it. If you want to try a permadeath guild in your game check out these DDO permadeath guild website and see how you can apply what worked for them to your game:
The Sublime - www.thesublimeguild.com
Mortal Voyage - www.mortalvoyage.com
Extreme explorers - http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=99994&TabID=856487
It doesn't even have to be permadeath, maybe just no rezing during quests, or some other restriction to add the challenge you are looking for.
--
DDO Permadeath guilds
the OP is asking for one or a couple good games with permadeath, not to change every single actual and upcoming game to fit his desires.
why would you all crybabies care if there are 1 or 3 games like that? you'd still have your 700 games to cry everytime you lose 0.543% exp per death
a good game with a balanced leveling system where permadeath could fit (no ganking,no uber mobs that 1hit you,strategy and reasoning over level and gear) would be greatly welcomed by the few of us with a minimal trace of guts and competitive playing. but thats something that 85% of the morons in this thread will never understand.
I played a few permadeath games (PD). Starport, wasn;t a PD game per se however on most servers they actually wipe the server after a set duration and declare a winner. This way it takes all pure player skill to win an era. No player or death can force you to PD. But it's a good form of it and was popular the PD servers were pretty populated. but I think ther permenant server had more players
HAZE, a NWN2 player run server had straight up iron man Permadeath. Was a roleplaying server with open pvp (but really it was consentual some what can only PD another for roleplay reasons). Was a sandbox of a sort. I had fun but didnt enjoy time based XP. check it out.
PD is around on NWN2 servers just look around. Goggle HAZE for neverwinter nights 2 to look them up
Good post Geld.
<hugs all the other pro perma-death people>
For those that say play any MMO and delete your char when you die..... Its about having a perma-death environment, everyone has to be in the same boat.
And anti-PD'rs, please please try and remember that you wont be forced to play these games (if they were ever to exist). I hope Diablo3 does have PD.... that'll be something.
Yeah shame about Trials of Ascension, I agreed so much with their philosophy, its a pity they were so incredibly ambitious in what they were trying to achieve.
I totally agree with this. And as others have said repeatedly, it would also require totally changing the style of the game. The typical 2-wipes-per-run dungeons would not be suitable. PVP would be a serious problem. But whatever differences there were, a permadeath game could be fun if the character progression system and the content took into account that everybody was in the same boat.
In any case, I don't think people are ridiculing the OP because they all think PD is a bad idea in theory. But demanding a good PD game is kind of like demanding someone make a good MMO when LucasArts is involved. Ain't gonna happen, because the general sentiment about the concept is very negative.
OP: Would you pay $500 and $150 for a game that was built from the ground up as a PD game? Because I reckon that's what it'd cost you given the serious lack of interest.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I totally agree with this. And as others have said repeatedly, it would also require totally changing the style of the game. The typical 2-wipes-per-run dungeons would not be suitable. PVP would be a serious problem. But whatever differences there were, a permadeath game could be fun if the character progression system and the content took into account that everybody was in the same boat.
In any case, I don't think people are ridiculing the OP because they all think PD is a bad idea in theory. But demanding a good PD game is kind of like demanding someone make a good MMO when LucasArts is involved. Ain't gonna happen, because the general sentiment about the concept is very negative.
OP: Would you pay $500 and $150 for a game that was built from the ground up as a PD game? Because I reckon that's what it'd cost you given the serious lack of interest.
I can fill in the blanks here based on what I've experienced:
1) Content shouldn't be redundant. Linear quest lines would bore people utterly because players will spend a lot of time in starter areas in a PD game. PD games thrive on player run servers because GMs can create fresh content. HAZE, for example, had no linear quests. Everything was dynamic
2) PVP - obviously you don;t want senseless griefing. So you need a ruleset that allows for players to evaluate risks + ways to knockout a player unconscious.
3) Dungeons do not exist in the PD games I've played. Not in the way you explained it. See, PD games are socializer heavens. Players spend a lot more time in town (depending on game setup). In case of HAZE creatures could PD you and GMs awarded you XP anyway. So you killed mobs based on need to defend friends and town. You didn;t grind mobs. All items were player created so we didn't need to risk life and limb in dungeons.
I think points #1 and #2 are the key differences on PD servers and pen and paper games. I suppose obviously you still see PD in Linear quest driven games but I haven't played those. I've only seen it on GM run servers. There are no doubt MUDs, asian mmo, Diablo, etc that used it to some effect but perhaps their atmosphere was tweaked differently
I'm not sure how bad I want PD to be honest I've enjoyed it on player run servers can't imagine it on a huge server with 5,000+ players. Maybe it can work. I dunno; no comment there I must add