How can you make a best game ever list and not put X-com on there?
Anyways it never ceases to amaze me the things people can assert based on purely metahporical reasoning. "A dogs bark is worse than his bite, so don't pay any attention to criminal if he threatens to shoot you".. Prove deductively that there is no such thing as a best game and then act like you know something....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 How can you make a best game ever list and not put X-com on there? Anyways it never ceases to amaze me the things people can assert based on purely metahporical reasoning. "A dogs bark is worse than his bite, so don't pay any attention to criminal if he threatens to shoot you".. Prove deductively that there is no such thing as a best game and then act like you know something....
Well that list is sorta sarcastic, if you notice that i placed Claymates and Ecco the Dolphin in there. A true list of the best games ever would be much, much longer and cover many more genres.
Its not "purely metaphorical reasoning." Books, movies, and games are all forms of entertainment, and can be related to one another easily. And if you care so much about it, please prove deductively that there IS a best game. I'd like to know what that best game is.
Ill start with what noone here is arguing with, I could start earlier if you want.
1) Everyone agrees there is a best game for every person.
2) A game is not limited to one type of gameplay and could contain all the different best games for different people.
C) Therefore there could be a "best game"
I already know someone would try to say "But the game would have to be infinitely huge to accomadate every person", but it wouldn't because there is a pattern among people.. If there were no pattern then no game could succeed because not enough people would enjoy it to merit its creation, and yet single games are liked by many different people. That still doesn't prove that there isn't an infinite amount of different games to be liked but it hints at it. To prove that there isn't an infinite or very large amount I'd have to get into how the mind works which Ill do if anyone persists...
Or how about this argument:
1) A best game is the one that is better than all others, but does not need to be perfect.
2) Even if games were limited to only appeasing certain kinds of players, the one that would appease more players than the rest would be better than all the rest
C) There is a best game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Everyone has their OWN best game. But when your asking "what is the best game?", it's just being stupid. Your asking for the other millions of people's opinions which won't be your opinion. Why don't those people just freakin go read some info about some games or play it themselves?
Moral: DO NOT FREAKIN ASK "WHAT IS THE BEST GAME?"... EVER.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Ok sure... Ill start with what noone here is arguing with, I could start earlier if you want. 1) Everyone agrees there is a best game for every person. 2) A game is not limited to one type of gameplay and could contain all the different best games for different people. C) Therefore there could be a "best game" I already know someone would try to say "But the game would have to be infinitely huge to accomadate every person", but it wouldn't because there is a pattern among people.. If there were no pattern then no game could succeed because not enough people would enjoy it to merit its creation, and yet single games are liked by many different people. That still doesn't prove that there isn't an infinite amount of different games to be liked but it hints at it. To prove that there isn't an infinite or very large amount I'd have to get into how the mind works which Ill do if anyone persists... Or how about this argument: 1) A best game is the one that is better than all others, but does not need to be perfect. 2) Even if games were limited to only appeasing certain kinds of players, the one that would appease more players than the rest would be better than all the rest C) There is a best game.
That doesn't prove anything. 1 and 2 i agree with. But if C) existed, you would have named it. And if it doesn't exist, then there is still no best game yet. You can hypothesize the "ultimate super game that everyone loves" all you want but if you can't describe it, its just a useless theory. Contain all the different best games for different people? Go to Gamespot's list of the best games of all time, just as an example. I'd love to see you attempt to combine the best parts of Day of the Tentacle with Civilization and Street Fighter 2. It doesn't work in forms of entertainment. Try and combine the love story of Titanic with the action of Matrix, and call it the best movie of all time? Please.
Popularity does not = best. System shock was a gaming classic that was a market failure, and graced bargain bins everywhere.
Originally posted by Trebek Originally posted by Xzaro Moral: DO NOT FREAKIN ASK "WHAT IS THE BEST GAME?"... EVER._______________________________________________
So, you're saying Superman 64 is the best game ever?
--------------------------------- Long Term MMO's Played: Ultima Online - 3 Years Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month: Shadowbane, Planetside Everquest, Ragnarok Online City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies Horizons, Fung Wan Online The Sims Online
Totally wrong, pac-man has to be the best game evAr dude.
As long as 2 products are close enought OR the total amount of products offered is small, they can be rightfully compared to try to sort a best.
Is Pac Man better or is World of Warcraft better would be a lame question, because they have nothing in common beside been games and the pool of games is to big, it would be like comparing the News to Buffy the Vampire Slayer...
For now, the market is kinda small and comparing pretty much any MMORPG is fine as long as you dont go mixting Sims and A Tale in the Desert VS something like EQ or UO...LOL. There is no point in comparing stuff to different...
But EQ2 vs WoW...errr....there is no way to stop those thread, the games are similars no matter what SoE and Blizzard say, and the products on the market are not that flooding, in fact, someone can probably compare EQ to EQ2 and nobody will find this unrightfull until they add a few more dozens games...
Will peoples ever agree? I doubt it, if they does, I stop playing and start watching Oprah collections! In the meantime, folks will keep going and throw their expectations over and over...
TV market is kinda big, and it is not exclusive...there is no point in doing a Buffy VS Stargate topic, because someone can easily listen to both, and the style is pretty different...MMORPGs are nearly exclusive, if you like a MMORPG enought, you are unlikely to play any other!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Oh comeon, each person has their BEST game for each person. And we are all different in our own special way, so there must be about 100 BEST games out there.
Everyone here loves roleplaying, or they wouldn't be here, so we can at least agree on the best genre!
Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion and point-of-view. Even if the whole world agreed that one game was the best, it doesn't mean it is true.
Originally posted by DerfelCadarn Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion and point-of-view. Even if the whole world agreed that one game was the best, it doesn't mean it is true.
If one person hates the game, it is not the best game
Originally posted by Sketch I FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!!! THE BEST GAME EVER IS....... THE POST A "WHATS THE BEST GAME?" QUESTION AND WHATCH XZARO REPEAT HIMSELF IN FRUSTRATION GAME!!!!
Originally posted by Genjing That doesn't prove anything. 1 and 2 i agree with. But if C) existed, you would have named it. And if it doesn't exist, then there is still no best game yet. You can hypothesize the "ultimate super game that everyone loves" all you want but if you can't describe it, its just a useless theory. Contain all the different best games for different people? Go to Gamespot's list of the best games of all time, just as an example. I'd love to see you attempt to combine the best parts of Day of the Tentacle with Civilization and Street Fighter 2. It doesn't work in forms of entertainment. Try and combine the love story of Titanic with the action of Matrix, and call it the best movie of all time? Please. Popularity does not = best. System shock was a gaming classic that was a market failure, and graced bargain bins everywhere.
You didn't say I had to name the game. The debate is weather a best game exists and the truth is its impossible not to because best simply means better than the rest. And if a best game does exist its rather silly for someone to put a thread that says "DER IZ NO BEZT GAME!!!!11" because as long as there is one people can debate which game it is.
If you want to compare a game that is really really fun for those who like it to a game that is fun for many people you simply have to find a way to place these two on the same scale, which can be done. Not by me though, it would take a wierd kind of analysis where you would have to give a measure to fun by examining how much it made players nerves receptive to whichever chemical is associated to fun on avg, then look at what percentage of people that it did this for, then every game you compared would be on common ground and you would just compare numbers.
This can be done with anything, I guess I should have put this as another premise for the second argument to compare things like Matrix and Titanic. Anytime you want to know something, the answer can be put in terms of simple mathematics. Its just a matter of determining units, (one for every factor), forming the equations etc. And even when the task is insurmountable, you can simply determine limiting factors by obsorvation and use statistics to represent larger sample sizes. For example if I want to know what to charge for an insurance policy, I take a crapload of statistics on whatever I am insuring and the situation the object existed in. If its renters insurance - I theorize that living in a bad neighborhood increases likelihood of stuff being stolen. THen I examine statistics and it proves to have been a meaningful indicator in the past. If I had infinite resources I could eventually create a perfect model with a huge number of indicators like "did the person down the street from you get beaten as a child" that would determine my answer as perfectly as a physics equation predicts physical movement. And in this way I would have converted all these factors into a measure of amount of risk to a persons property.
I do this all the time... The other day I was playing starcraft for old times sake. I asked myself what is the best way to beat this mission? I looked at the unit and came up with some units to measure them - (Health * Damage) / (Cooldown time).. If resources where a limiting factor then I would divide by whichever resource I was short of to compare the units to build. If time was short than I would have divided by building time. Unfortunately I couldn't find building times, but if I was anal I could have just measured them myself. Since the units had different ranges, the shape of the map was a factor, so at any one spot in the map each units value measurement would change based on its weapon range and position of its enemies. So there you just estimate the avg effect it will have (though you could be wrong) and affect the value measurement with the avg. In the end, if you had done everything right, you could simply compare two numbers, and one would be bigger than the other, and the bigger number would win the fight. If I wanted to see which of two players would win I could simply reduce them to 2 numbers as well if I had infinite resources. I would need everything I just mentioned, PLUS I would have to know what their choices would be (which would necessitate knowing their entire history) and then figure how the 2 interact.
It isn't even necessary to be god to do these things. Its just for more complicated tasks it could take an eternity of breaking down, taking statistics etc. But then one day we may create AI capable of doing this quickly and comprehending much more information at once than we can.
Originally posted by DerfelCadarn Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion and point-of-view. Even if the whole world agreed that one game was the best, it doesn't mean it is true.
Thats not true. There is one answer to every question. There is one reality and opinions either model reality or they do not. People often resort to believing as you say because there are so many different opinions that people have, and a different one added everytime someone uses a cool sounding metaphor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
There is currently no best game, at least not in the MMORPG genre. This is because all the games are just the same basic skeleton fleshed out with different combat styles, gfx, sounds, items etc.
it certainly is possible to make a best ever game, something which takes everything good about MMORPGs, and then injects that into a game which includes some actual playing of roles. A game which takes the great ideas of games such as Dark and lights dynamic weather etc, yet which gives you an option in how the world lives and grows, and gives you some choices other than kill, dig or craft.
This game is sadly yet to hit the market, or yet to be thought about outside the hallowed pages of MMORPG.com.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Originally posted by DerfelCadarn Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion and point-of-view. Even if the whole world agreed that one game was the best, it doesn't mean it is true. Thats not true. There is one answer to every question. There is one reality and opinions either model reality or they do not. People often resort to believing as you say because there are so many different opinions that people have, and a different one added everytime someone uses a cool sounding metaphor.
Well that is not true, there are multiple answer to every question in existence, wich again was my point. Even more so when we try to measure non measurable occurences, such as feelings. You speak about mathematics a bit and I assume you have a rudimentary knowledgde of it, the conception that math is absolute and there is only one answer to every equation dissipates once you enter mathematics that are beyond high school math. There are often multiple answers to every equation, the number of wich depends on how many unknown factors there are ( X,Y,Z and so on), and in questions with very untangible factors, as likes and dislikes are there are bound to be as many answers as there are people. Probably more if onr were to make a complete calculation of it..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments
So what is the best game?
---------------------------------
Long Term MMO's Played:
Ultima Online - 3 Years
Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month:
Shadowbane, Planetside
Everquest, Ragnarok Online
City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies
Horizons, Fung Wan Online
The Sims Online
-----------------------------------
| Final Fantasy | Free iPod |
-----------------------------------
How can you make a best game ever list and not put X-com on there?
Anyways it never ceases to amaze me the things people can assert based on purely metahporical reasoning. "A dogs bark is worse than his bite, so don't pay any attention to criminal if he threatens to shoot you"..
Prove deductively that there is no such thing as a best game and then act like you know something....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Well that list is sorta sarcastic, if you notice that i placed Claymates and Ecco the Dolphin in there. A true list of the best games ever would be much, much longer and cover many more genres.
Its not "purely metaphorical reasoning." Books, movies, and games are all forms of entertainment, and can be related to one another easily. And if you care so much about it, please prove deductively that there IS a best game. I'd like to know what that best game is.
Ok sure...
Ill start with what noone here is arguing with, I could start earlier if you want.
1) Everyone agrees there is a best game for every person.
2) A game is not limited to one type of gameplay and could contain all the different best games for different people.
C) Therefore there could be a "best game"
I already know someone would try to say "But the game would have to be infinitely huge to accomadate every person", but it wouldn't because there is a pattern among people.. If there were no pattern then no game could succeed because not enough people would enjoy it to merit its creation, and yet single games are liked by many different people. That still doesn't prove that there isn't an infinite amount of different games to be liked but it hints at it. To prove that there isn't an infinite or very large amount I'd have to get into how the mind works which Ill do if anyone persists...
Or how about this argument:
1) A best game is the one that is better than all others, but does not need to be perfect.
2) Even if games were limited to only appeasing certain kinds of players, the one that would appease more players than the rest would be better than all the rest
C) There is a best game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Everyone has their OWN best game. But when your asking "what is the best game?", it's just being stupid. Your asking for the other millions of people's opinions which won't be your opinion. Why don't those people just freakin go read some info about some games or play it themselves?
Moral: DO NOT FREAKIN ASK "WHAT IS THE BEST GAME?"... EVER.
_______________________________________________
That doesn't prove anything. 1 and 2 i agree with. But if C) existed, you would have named it. And if it doesn't exist, then there is still no best game yet. You can hypothesize the "ultimate super game that everyone loves" all you want but if you can't describe it, its just a useless theory. Contain all the different best games for different people? Go to Gamespot's list of the best games of all time, just as an example. I'd love to see you attempt to combine the best parts of Day of the Tentacle with Civilization and Street Fighter 2. It doesn't work in forms of entertainment. Try and combine the love story of Titanic with the action of Matrix, and call it the best movie of all time? Please.
Popularity does not = best. System shock was a gaming classic that was a market failure, and graced bargain bins everywhere.
If there is/was ever a best MMOG. Then all the other MMOG would be bankrupt. I never seen that happen, have u?
_______________________________________________
So, you're saying Superman 64 is the best game ever?
---------------------------------
Long Term MMO's Played:
Ultima Online - 3 Years
Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month:
Shadowbane, Planetside
Everquest, Ragnarok Online
City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies
Horizons, Fung Wan Online
The Sims Online
-----------------------------------
| Final Fantasy | Free iPod |
-----------------------------------
So, you're saying Superman 64 is the best game ever?
---------------------------------
Long Term MMO's Played:
Ultima Online - 3 Years
Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month:
Shadowbane, Planetside
Everquest, Ragnarok Online
City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies
Horizons, Fung Wan Online
The Sims Online
Totally wrong, pac-man has to be the best game evAr dude.
_______________________________________________
Pacman? No way. now MRS PACMAN! She was HOTT
---------------------------------
Long Term MMO's Played:
Ultima Online - 3 Years
Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month:
Shadowbane, Planetside
Everquest, Ragnarok Online
City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies
Horizons, Fung Wan Online
The Sims Online
-----------------------------------
| Final Fantasy | Free iPod |
-----------------------------------
Well...
As long as 2 products are close enought OR the total amount of products offered is small, they can be rightfully compared to try to sort a best.
Is Pac Man better or is World of Warcraft better would be a lame question, because they have nothing in common beside been games and the pool of games is to big, it would be like comparing the News to Buffy the Vampire Slayer...
For now, the market is kinda small and comparing pretty much any MMORPG is fine as long as you dont go mixting Sims and A Tale in the Desert VS something like EQ or UO...LOL. There is no point in comparing stuff to different...
But EQ2 vs WoW...errr....there is no way to stop those thread, the games are similars no matter what SoE and Blizzard say, and the products on the market are not that flooding, in fact, someone can probably compare EQ to EQ2 and nobody will find this unrightfull until they add a few more dozens games...
Will peoples ever agree? I doubt it, if they does, I stop playing and start watching Oprah collections! In the meantime, folks will keep going and throw their expectations over and over...
TV market is kinda big, and it is not exclusive...there is no point in doing a Buffy VS Stargate topic, because someone can easily listen to both, and the style is pretty different...MMORPGs are nearly exclusive, if you like a MMORPG enought, you are unlikely to play any other!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Oh comeon, each person has their BEST game for each person. And we are all different in our own special way, so there must be about 100 BEST games out there.
Everyone here loves roleplaying, or they wouldn't be here, so we can at least agree on the best genre!
If one person hates the game, it is not the best game
_______________________________________________
I FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!!!
THE BEST GAME EVER IS....... THE POST A "WHATS THE BEST GAME?" QUESTION AND WHATCH XZARO REPEAT HIMSELF IN FRUSTRATION GAME!!!!
You finally figured it out?
_______________________________________________
You didn't say I had to name the game. The debate is weather a best game exists and the truth is its impossible not to because best simply means better than the rest. And if a best game does exist its rather silly for someone to put a thread that says "DER IZ NO BEZT GAME!!!!11" because as long as there is one people can debate which game it is.
If you want to compare a game that is really really fun for those who like it to a game that is fun for many people you simply have to find a way to place these two on the same scale, which can be done. Not by me though, it would take a wierd kind of analysis where you would have to give a measure to fun by examining how much it made players nerves receptive to whichever chemical is associated to fun on avg, then look at what percentage of people that it did this for, then every game you compared would be on common ground and you would just compare numbers.
This can be done with anything, I guess I should have put this as another premise for the second argument to compare things like Matrix and Titanic. Anytime you want to know something, the answer can be put in terms of simple mathematics. Its just a matter of determining units, (one for every factor), forming the equations etc. And even when the task is insurmountable, you can simply determine limiting factors by obsorvation and use statistics to represent larger sample sizes. For example if I want to know what to charge for an insurance policy, I take a crapload of statistics on whatever I am insuring and the situation the object existed in. If its renters insurance - I theorize that living in a bad neighborhood increases likelihood of stuff being stolen. THen I examine statistics and it proves to have been a meaningful indicator in the past. If I had infinite resources I could eventually create a perfect model with a huge number of indicators like "did the person down the street from you get beaten as a child" that would determine my answer as perfectly as a physics equation predicts physical movement. And in this way I would have converted all these factors into a measure of amount of risk to a persons property.
I do this all the time... The other day I was playing starcraft for old times sake. I asked myself what is the best way to beat this mission? I looked at the unit and came up with some units to measure them - (Health * Damage) / (Cooldown time).. If resources where a limiting factor then I would divide by whichever resource I was short of to compare the units to build. If time was short than I would have divided by building time. Unfortunately I couldn't find building times, but if I was anal I could have just measured them myself. Since the units had different ranges, the shape of the map was a factor, so at any one spot in the map each units value measurement would change based on its weapon range and position of its enemies. So there you just estimate the avg effect it will have (though you could be wrong) and affect the value measurement with the avg. In the end, if you had done everything right, you could simply compare two numbers, and one would be bigger than the other, and the bigger number would win the fight. If I wanted to see which of two players would win I could simply reduce them to 2 numbers as well if I had infinite resources. I would need everything I just mentioned, PLUS I would have to know what their choices would be (which would necessitate knowing their entire history) and then figure how the 2 interact.
It isn't even necessary to be god to do these things. Its just for more complicated tasks it could take an eternity of breaking down, taking statistics etc. But then one day we may create AI capable of doing this quickly and comprehending much more information at once than we can.
Thats not true. There is one answer to every question. There is one reality and opinions either model reality or they do not. People often resort to believing as you say because there are so many different opinions that people have, and a different one added everytime someone uses a cool sounding metaphor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Shit i'm bad... I self educated myself in ways of controlling feelings, now nothing feels like it's true... gotta be an assasin or sumtin.
-----------------------
....must ....play .....WoW
There is currently no best game, at least not in the MMORPG genre. This is because all the games are just the same basic skeleton fleshed out with different combat styles, gfx, sounds, items etc.
it certainly is possible to make a best ever game, something which takes everything good about MMORPGs, and then injects that into a game which includes some actual playing of roles. A game which takes the great ideas of games such as Dark and lights dynamic weather etc, yet which gives you an option in how the world lives and grows, and gives you some choices other than kill, dig or craft.
This game is sadly yet to hit the market, or yet to be thought about outside the hallowed pages of MMORPG.com.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Well that is not true, there are multiple answer to every question in existence, wich again was my point. Even more so when we try to measure non measurable occurences, such as feelings. You speak about mathematics a bit and I assume you have a rudimentary knowledgde of it, the conception that math is absolute and there is only one answer to every equation dissipates once you enter mathematics that are beyond high school math. There are often multiple answers to every equation, the number of wich depends on how many unknown factors there are ( X,Y,Z and so on), and in questions with very untangible factors, as likes and dislikes are there are bound to be as many answers as there are people. Probably more if onr were to make a complete calculation of it..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------