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The MMO industry has abandoned us...
admriker4
Member Posts: 1,070
Im so upset with the entire industry. Im sick of spending $50 only to find the game is just another MMO designed to appeal to the lowest common denominater.
I thought it might be possible to find features that I like in Age of Conan. I found very little in that game that would keep me playing. Crafting which I love was an afterthought in AoC. Instancing made it feel like I was playing a multiplayer box game. Combat was interesting but not enough to allow me to overlook the other 50 flaws.
Im not even playing any MMO's right now. Im so desperate to find any MMO to entertain me that Ive gone through the entire game list here and tried at least 7 MMO's in the past week. All of them were total crap.
Last night I went back and tried Vanguard. I was so bored after an hr i deleted it from my hard drive (again). The combat was so boring and vanilla. The animations put me to sleep.
I tried some of the small MMO's like Requiem, Hellgate London, Roma Victor. Umm why are these guys using graphics from 1997 ? And talk about bugs yeesh.
I reactivated my LOTR account. Im already bored with it. Just another quest grind with no point.
Im so desperate that I even considered renewing Star Wars Galaxies. I wont though, not as long as Mr Smedley continues to run things at SOE.
I guess Im just sick of having to settle for a linear design when I really want sandbox play. I find myself constantly looking for an MMO thats linear but might have some sandbox elements in it. This desperate act always leads to disappointment as no linear game has even the slightest sandbox features that I want.
What does the future hold ?
Bioware - Cmon these guys are all about the story. Translation...another quest-grind linear game. Their devs have even repeated several times on their forums about features theyd like to emulate from WoW. Odds are Bioware is making a Clone Wars theme MMO to tie in with Lucas new television show. It will be just another marketing scheme to make a quick buck with no long-term appeal. Knowing me, Ill fork over the $50 in the hopes that I can find something to keep me there but the odds are against it. Desperate men do desperate things.
Darkfall - After 7+ years in development and little to show for it, Im not holding my breathe. And lets be honest, name one single decent MMO (Besides EVE) thats even remotely decent that came from a small indy developer. If this game ever does launch, I predict its another Roma Victor or Face of Mankind disaster. Still, the sandbox fans cling to Darkfall like its the Holy Grail because frankly we have little else to hope for.
Earthrise - it just started so we get to wait 4+ years and hope it doesnt turn into vaporware.
Fallen Earth - it has some elements of sandbox in it. However its a FPS so not my cup of tea. And it looks like they borrowed the graphics engine that made Fallout 2 in 1998. Another indy developer trying to make it big with no money.
Star Trek - this one has already died once. Rumor is Cryptic is taking over. I guess we can look forward to a simplistic stripped down MMO that those guys are known for. If any IP deserves a sandbox virtual world MMO experience, its Star Trek but you know Cryptic isnt about to spend 75 million on our dream game.
Stargate World - the devs there are keeping quiet but the more I read, the more its clear its another linear quest based linear clone. No housing, no crafting except for consumables, and level designed with classes.
Why is the MMO industry turning away players like me ? Why arent they trying to make games that appeal to players for longer than 3 months ? Its turning into a fastfood instant gratification theme that only appeals to the lowest common denominator. In short, its being dumbed down.
I get my entertainment from MMO's. I dont want much television since Seinfeld went off the air. I watch Scrubs reruns sometimes. My show the 4400 was recently cancelled bleh. Im now finding myself watching stupid reality tv with the wife or taking the dog for a second walk that night out of sheer boredom.
Is it really so difficult to make a virtual world sandbox MMO with decent crafting that isnt an afterthought ? Are seamless open worlds impossible to code now ? Why is housing, something we took for granted in earlier MMO's now not included in the latest ones ? Why so much focus on combat ?
The MMO industry has abandoned me
Comments
I'll take the blame for this. I hate crafting, and could care less if a game has it. I hate housing, useless fluff of no concern to me. If it doesn't involve killing things, Npc's, other players, I'm not a a fan of it in my games. I do like exploring as well, so its ok if the world is vast.
Why do I feel this way? Well, the only crafting I've ever done was in games where it was a tedious drudge to level up, with little reward along the way, and not all that much at endgame. Housing, well, maybe theres's such a thing as good housing, but the few games I've played with it I didn't like it. (DAOC being one)
Maybe I just missed the games like SWG, UO and others that focused more on these elements, and maybe I'd have even like them. But as it stands now, exploring and killing stuff is pretty much it for me.
And it appears there's a bunch of folks who are just like me, so the developers are creating games that appeal to this larger audience.
My first/only sandbox game was/is EVE, and I really like it. No, I don't build anything, nor feel any interest in running my own POS, and perish the thought of mining. I kill rats in belts, or run missions, and save up cash to create ships to kill other players. That's pretty much the extent of my interest so far.
Hopefully we'll see a good game released by one of the smaller developers you've mentioned, because I am very curious to see how they play. Like you, I've grown weary of the linear quest design of most games and am looking for a change.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree wholeheartedly with the OP and I've done the same thing in the past week...
If you find a game to play OP, PLEASE let me know. I'd like to try it.
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority.
People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game.
Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing.
The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff?
Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point.
This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
So very true. Almost every MMO I pick leaves a bad taste. All the developers want is money and what better way than make a linear MMO on some renowned work of fiction. I know money is very important but they should take into account the players wants too (Players like us who are desperately waiting for a MMO with atleast a few sandbox elements. I have played AOC, COH, COX, LOTR, WOW and currently downloading EQ2.
Heres hoping from the reviews that this game will have quite a few sandbox elements.
I have heard Vanguard has nice Sandbox elements, so I will try that too.
I agree with the OP.
And as far as Age of Conan, I"m not sure what the dev's where thinking. Conan in the books didn't need any hand-holding or special guidance. Therefore any game that would truly be in the spirit of Conan should be designed around a harsh, wide-open world.
Age of Conan ought to be renamed "Age of Wimp-nan", because any player who needs to be protected and guided all through the game is...well...a wimp.
Stop playing games online, or games, in an all. Take a break, 1-2 months is best, 3-6 months is better.
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Senhores da Guerra
And the purpose of making MMOs is? This is not art with a muse to inspire and drive an artist, MMOs are a commercial endeavour to make money. They are capital intensive to make and run, and if you can't get a decent subscription base then you will fail. Even if you get the minimum subscription base you're then stuck with not being able to progress or expand the game. Most people like linearity, and to sound cruel, if you don't then it sucks to be you.
The only hope for you "sandbox" people is if the cost of development and hosting of a MMO drops enough that smaller outfits actually have a chance to produce a decent game. Maybe it's time to rethink your choice of hobby and find something else to channel your energies into. Personally I'm happy with MMOs, but I take breaks from them every few months and go do something else.
I truely miss face of mankind and hope they get it back up again.
I'm so confused!
Who is this "OP" character everyone keeps talking about?
Almost every successful businessperson will tell you that "the way to get what you want is to give others what they want."
There are a lot of people who want freedom and exictement in an MMO. That means non-linear gameplay and risks (i.e., death penalty that stings) and rewards (i.e., stuff that really has to be earned to be valued).
Linear MMO's are really not MMO's at all, but RPG's posing as MMO's.
Hmm... ok.
OP means "original poster/post". If you scroll up, you will see an "OP" symbol near the first post, and all posts made by that person on this thread.
edit: since it's page 2 now o.0 you need to "scroll 1 page back"
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Senhores da Guerra
That's been bugging me, since I usually know all the abbreviations.
I can't think of one MMO launch that hasn't been over hyped in the last few years. If there are so many people who like sandbox games then why aren't they being made? The people who like "easy button" MMOs are so busy playing them, they don't have time to sit here and bitch like us. I swear if someone built a good sandbox MMO this site would die overnight because almost everyone here came from one of those kind of games and can't find anything to play that they like.
Part of the problem is, some fo the more linear games are coming out more polished and therefore tolerable to play, while the recent spate of sandbox games have been poorly executed or underfunded.
And investors are making the mistake of evaluating overall design philosophy as the reason. Vanguard, for example, didn't do well because it was unfinished and geared towards systems few players had. Vanguard did not fail because of sandbox design; that was it's only plus, really.
Almost every successful businessperson will tell you that "the way to get what you want is to give others what they want."
There are a lot of people who want freedom and exictement in an MMO. That means non-linear gameplay and risks (i.e., death penalty that stings) and rewards (i.e., stuff that really has to be earned to be valued).
Linear MMO's are really not MMO's at all, but RPG's posing as MMO's.
My point is that there are not enough people to justify trying to create an AAA style sandbox MMO. These are very expensive to develop, and when you're dealing with these types of funds, the holders of the funds are incredibly conservative. I highly doubt that there will be any serious sandbox style MMO in the foreseeable future.
OP= Original Poster, the guy who made the first post.
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority.
People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game.
Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing.
The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff?
Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point.
This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
Nari, I believe you are mistaken. The reason so many companies are making WoW-clones is not because "a majority of customers want easy hack-n-slash gameplay. " THE reason is because of WoW. They think WoW's success is simply game design. Wrong. WoW's success is due to the Blizzard brand name; respected by millions of gamers worldwide; especially Asia. It was an easy game which means it was also accessible.
Look at all the failed MMOs like POBS, AoC, even Vanguard. Yes even Vanguard emulated WoW in that you did linear quests which formed the bulk of your xp gain. What these companies fail to realize is that linear, easy gameplay is not what made WoW great. Once enough MMO launches fail, maybe folks will start to learn the lesson.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Think of the potential for a game that incorporate:
We need a world. DEVELOPERS, READ MY TEXT: A W O R L D.
dec, to design that in today's environment is sorta like a politician of significant power issuing/passing a law that would abolish fiat currency. Meaning even though it's right, no one wants to do it as it's not popular within the structure of power they're in. It's not 'politically' possible.
That being said, keep your eye balls on Spore and whether or not that gets released because underneath the hood of that beast of a game is the development of a procedural programming engine in which everything sans user input is procedurally generated (the world, environmental effects, and etc). Procedural generation like the sandbox game style is an old technique and discipline that was lost for a while there because of the OOP hype of the 1980s. Now, it's coming back because it really does work and it works so well that several programs designed in Haskell (a procedural language) in professional contests have been awarded the top awards.
That means a bunch for MMO developers, because procedural generation could make sandbox and quest-like MMOs naturally meshed together rather than isolated. You could play in the same MMO with your son that prefers to slay dragons while you go and tend to your virtual trading. Or your wife could lead a secret society in said game while your brother runs for mayor of one of the towns. And so on. That sort of meshing isn't impossible, it's just hard to do. And what's hard to do often gets ignored by the programmers more so than the venture capitalists (if they $$$ beside said idea, they'll be apt to try it.).
-- Brede
Venture capital, investors, developers, and MMORPG decision-makers do not know what the gaming community wants now from their MMORPG, something:
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority.
People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game.
Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing.
The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff?
Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point.
This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
I agree that some features of classic sandbox MMO's were terrible. I too hated fighting over spawns. Perhaps a merger of the two styles taking the best features of each and making one amazing MMO.
Dont get me wrong, I dont hate quests. The ones in Tortage in Age of Conan were simply fantastic. The issue is I want the freedom to do something besides questing. Dont force it on me. Dont make questing the only real means to level or skill up. Give me a decent amount of xp for exploring or just killing stuff. Dont penalize me because I dont want to follow the treadmill - quest line.
Ans speaking of quests, why are developers making them idiot-proof now ? There was a time when NPC's didnt have symbols over their heads to let the world know that hey I got a quest over here. You actually had to umm explore and find an npc that had some quests. They also didnt have arrows on the map to lead you right to the quest item. Good grief, this is what people want ? Why not make it easier and just skip the whole thing and give everyone the level / skill cap and be done with it.
I have no problems the way games like WoW made instances for dungeons. It works great and prevents spawn campers from stealing kills. However, dont make the entire game instanced. This is an MMO after all, as in MASSIVE. I shouldnt have to wait on a loading screen everytime I enter a building. Nor should I be seperated into hidden mirrored zones because the devs were too lazy or cheap to make an area handle more than 50 people.
Housing is probably not understood by those who havent experienced it but its a wonderful diversion and beneficial feature. First off, its a place to store goods which is very helpful if your a crafter. Second, its a way to show off rare and valuable loot. I know players (like myself) that had houses that were virtual museums. I spent a majority of my credits buying up rare items for their decorative use. Some quests had an item that was only useful for decoration and the quest wasnt easy to find (thus the item was rare).
In some games, housing could be used to place personal vendors for selling your crafted goods. Malls sprang up in games like that and was a great place for players to shop. The fairly new concept of an auction house doesnt need to be the only means to sell goods.
In short, there doesnt need to be a simple hack and slash game devoid of nothing else. Why cant we have both in a sandbox virtual world. Give us the freedom to choose our playstyle instead of forcing us to play one and quit if we dont like it. I see no reason why a combat system like Conan cant be merged with a sandbox star wars galaxies seamless world. Splash in some quests that arent idiot-proof, toss in some housing (and not that instanced crap), give crafters a decent system, and everyone would be happy.
As of now, we have no options. Its either accept hack-n-slash linear quest grinding or go watch Dancing with the Stars...yuck.
What i see as last hope is "Champions Online" which i am sure will be extraordinary (especially if you liked COX)
And Jumpgate Evolution (that is actually going to be released end of this year)
Except of that?
Fallen Earth might be good, if its ever released. And there are rumours of Turbine working on Asherons Call 3
No industry can please everbody. I'm sorry to say it, but if there's 5% of people who are like you and at least 80% who enjoy these games are they are, where do you think the money's at? And what do companies care about? Money. Maybe one day an MMO for you will come along, but you're right, the industry seems kind of locked in its niche and who knows if we can break out of it.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Darkfall and Mortal Online, that's all there is left. Yes, vaporware.
You expect too much of it.