What you're doing is trying to excuse christian for making statements like that. The issue here is that there is absolutely no evidence that karma has caused an earth quake in china, or that 9 - 11 is the result of homosexuality. There is no difference between me saying the all ruling spagheti monster caused an earth quake in china and a religious person saying his god caused it.
No excuse necessary. At least not in America. See the great thing is that in America you have freedom to believe in what ever religion or lack of that you want. So if you want to believe that the Spaghetti monster caused the earthquake that is perfectly all right. If you have a shrine to the Spaghetti monster in your house that you worship daily, that is fine as well. You have freedom (well in America, Ive never been to Belgium, so not sure there) to believe in what ever supernatural thing you want to.
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
Roman Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Roman Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Argentina
Bolivia
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Slovakia
Some cantons of Switzerland (state religion):
Appenzell Innerrhoden (declared "religion of the people of Appenzell Innerrhoden")
Nidwalden
Schwyz
Uri
Vatican City (official religion)
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Cyprus (Cypriot Orthodox Church)
Republic of Moldova (Orthodox Church)
Greece (Church of Greece)
Finland: Finnish Orthodox Church has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations, the majority of which is owned by them. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.
Russian Federation: Russian Orthodox Church, one of the four state religions of Russia alongside Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.
Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion:
Denmark (Church of Denmark)
Iceland (Church of Iceland)
Norway (Church of Norway)
Finland: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act. The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evengelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations, except those the majority of which is owned by members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards. The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Anglican
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Some cantons of Switzerland (Swiss Reformed Church):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Glarus
Graubünden
Schwyz
Thurgau
Uri
Zurich
Scotland – the Church of Scotland is the national church, but is not a "state church" and has complete independence from the state in spiritual matters, thus being both established and free.
Old Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize an Old Catholic church as their state religion:
Some cantons of Switzerland (Christian Catholic Church of Switzerland):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Islamic countries
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.
Afghanistan (Islamic state)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Iran (Islamic state)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (Islamic state)
Palestinian National Authority
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen (Islamic state)
Sunni Islam
Algeria
Comoros
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Pakistan (as national-sanctioned religion)
Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
Somalia
Jordan
Shi'a Islam
Iran (as state-sanctioned religion)
Buddhism as state religion
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)
Cambodia (Theravada Buddhism)
Kalmykia, a republic within the Russian Federation (Tibetan Buddhism - sole Buddhist entity in Europe)
Sri Lanka (Theravada Buddhism - The constitution accords Buddhism the "foremost place," but Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion.
Thailand (Theravada Buddhism)
Tibet Government in Exile (Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism)
America is in the minority when it comes to National Religion. This is the list of countries with no National Religion.
Australia
Azerbaijan
Canada
Chile
Cuba
People's Republic of China
France
India
Ireland
Israel (which considers itself a "democratic Jewish state", although "Jewish" might be construed to refer to the people rather than the religion)
Jamaica
Japan (Shinto until end of WWII)
Kosovo
Lebanon (although president must always remain a Maronite Catholic, and prime minister a Sunni Muslim)
Mexico
Montenegro
Nepal (declared a secular state on May 18, 2006, by the newly resumed House of Representatives)
New Zealand
Nigeria
North Korea
Romania
Russia
Singapore
South Africa
South Korea
Spain
Turkey
United States
Venezuela
Vietnam
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
What you're doing is trying to excuse christian for making statements like that. The issue here is that there is absolutely no evidence that karma has caused an earth quake in china, or that 9 - 11 is the result of homosexuality. There is no difference between me saying the all ruling spagheti monster caused an earth quake in china and a religious person saying his god caused it.
No excuse necessary. At least not in America. See the great thing is that in America you have freedom to believe in what ever religion or lack of that you want. So if you want to believe that the Spaghetti monster caused the earthquake that is perfectly all right. If you have a shrine to the Spaghetti monster in your house that you worship daily, that is fine as well. You have freedom (well in America, Ive never been to Belgium, so not sure there) to believe in what ever supernatural thing you want to.
And we, the people who think you're wrong, have the freedom to let you know that. It isn't just good sense to oppose people who make such grand statements, it is a moral duty. Why? These claims tend to point at one group or another (we'll call them Gays and non-Christians) and place the blame on these people. Oh wait, hate the sin, not the sinner. Until it's time to bash the sinner. Maybe the sin can be whipped out of them in order to save their soul. Or maybe they can be hung. Or shot. Or blown up. Whatever it takes to save the country from unnatural disasters, right?
I think calling crazy crazy is a good idea. It puts up a barrier of protection for when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan. Who wants the next largest natural disaster (on a much larger scale than anything we have witnessed thus far) to be the catalyst to a witch hunt? What if those darn gays would just act normal and stop bringing God's loving hate down on us? What if all those soulless Atheists were exterminated so that the grace of God could shine down on an unblemished land?
So yeah, what harm could possibly come from believing whatever you want to?
Just bring an ounce of proof. Just an ounce. Because that is where the burden lies. Not with the people who call you crazy or simply don't believe what you say, but with the person with the extraordinary claim. Something about extraordinary evidence.... how does that saying go? heh.
Besides, haven't we covered this already? Good grief.
What you're doing is trying to excuse christian for making statements like that. The issue here is that there is absolutely no evidence that karma has caused an earth quake in china, or that 9 - 11 is the result of homosexuality. There is no difference between me saying the all ruling spagheti monster caused an earth quake in china and a religious person saying his god caused it.
No excuse necessary. At least not in America. See the great thing is that in America you have freedom to believe in what ever religion or lack of that you want. So if you want to believe that the Spaghetti monster caused the earthquake that is perfectly all right. If you have a shrine to the Spaghetti monster in your house that you worship daily, that is fine as well. You have freedom (well in America, Ive never been to Belgium, so not sure there) to believe in what ever supernatural thing you want to.
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
You're missing the point, this isn't about freedom to believe or not, that has absolutely nothing to do with point I was trying to make.
What you're doing is trying to excuse christian for making statements like that. The issue here is that there is absolutely no evidence that karma has caused an earth quake in china, or that 9 - 11 is the result of homosexuality. There is no difference between me saying the all ruling spagheti monster caused an earth quake in china and a religious person saying his god caused it.
No excuse necessary. At least not in America. See the great thing is that in America you have freedom to believe in what ever religion or lack of that you want. So if you want to believe that the Spaghetti monster caused the earthquake that is perfectly all right. If you have a shrine to the Spaghetti monster in your house that you worship daily, that is fine as well. You have freedom (well in America, Ive never been to Belgium, so not sure there) to believe in what ever supernatural thing you want to.
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
Roman Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Roman Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Argentina
Bolivia
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Slovakia
Some cantons of Switzerland (state religion):
Appenzell Innerrhoden (declared "religion of the people of Appenzell Innerrhoden")
Nidwalden
Schwyz
Uri
Vatican City (official religion)
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Cyprus (Cypriot Orthodox Church)
Republic of Moldova (Orthodox Church)
Greece (Church of Greece)
Finland: Finnish Orthodox Church has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations, the majority of which is owned by them. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.
Russian Federation: Russian Orthodox Church, one of the four state religions of Russia alongside Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.
Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion:
Denmark (Church of Denmark)
Iceland (Church of Iceland)
Norway (Church of Norway)
Finland: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act. The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evengelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations, except those the majority of which is owned by members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards. The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Anglican
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Some cantons of Switzerland (Swiss Reformed Church):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Glarus
Graubünden
Schwyz
Thurgau
Uri
Zurich
Scotland – the Church of Scotland is the national church, but is not a "state church" and has complete independence from the state in spiritual matters, thus being both established and free.
Old Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize an Old Catholic church as their state religion:
Some cantons of Switzerland (Christian Catholic Church of Switzerland):
Aargau
Basel-Country
Berne
Islamic countries
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.
Afghanistan (Islamic state)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Iran (Islamic state)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (Islamic state)
Palestinian National Authority
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen (Islamic state)
Sunni Islam
Algeria
Comoros
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Pakistan (as national-sanctioned religion)
Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
Somalia
Jordan
Shi'a Islam
Iran (as state-sanctioned religion)
Buddhism as state religion
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)
Cambodia (Theravada Buddhism)
Kalmykia, a republic within the Russian Federation (Tibetan Buddhism - sole Buddhist entity in Europe)
Sri Lanka (Theravada Buddhism - The constitution accords Buddhism the "foremost place," but Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion.
Thailand (Theravada Buddhism)
Tibet Government in Exile (Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism)
America is in the minority when it comes to National Religion. This is the list of countries with no National Religion.
Australia
Azerbaijan
Canada
Chile
Cuba
People's Republic of China
France
India
Ireland
Israel (which considers itself a "democratic Jewish state", although "Jewish" might be construed to refer to the people rather than the religion)
Jamaica
Japan (Shinto until end of WWII)
Kosovo
Lebanon (although president must always remain a Maronite Catholic, and prime minister a Sunni Muslim)
Mexico
Montenegro
Nepal (declared a secular state on May 18, 2006, by the newly resumed House of Representatives)
Simple reasoning for a simple minded person, if something big and scary happened used magical reasoning to explain it.
Besides meteorology, seismic activity and the like makes my simple ape brain spin, but magical systems that record your actions and punish or reward you thusly I can get.
Not really suprising Sharon Stone is a movie star and has to remain relevant so occasionaly she says things and there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I am so glad that Sharon Stone did this. But here's why I'm glad... I hope that the religious right looks at her and thinks she's crazy for saying it. And then, I hope they are reflective enough to be able to see the similarities of some of the things some of their religious leaders say. I have heard some things from the right that I think are just as crazy as Sharon Stone's statement. But because they came from a Christian leader on the right, somehow they get a "crazy pass". I've heard everything from AIDS, New Orleans, to destruction of ancient cities blamed on God's wrath. Somehow those don't sound like loony rantings to a lot of religious right people. So, maybe this is like looking in a mirror for them. Somehow I think most of them will make an excuse though. And, just so I don't get accused of it, I am not referring to every Christian or religious person. Of course I know not every Christian believes God is going around punishing us with weather and disease. I'm just not blind enough to notice that it actually is a pretty big percentage of Christians who do believe this kind of stuff. Well, welcome to the camp of Sharon Stone.
From the viewpoint of a Bible believing Christian, there really is nothing theologically wrong with believing that God destroys things by means of natural disaster (nor is there anything wrong with believing that God no longer does such things)...so why do you think that they are crazy? Maybe you just don't believe the same things that they do? Certainly the founding fathers would be okay with people believing different things.
Gnome, you're treading on grounds that you don't know very much about, you're just asking for a theological discussion here...do you really want that? I'd be happy to show you all the nifty little places where God's wrath comes to Earth, but I'm sure that you're already famliar with some of them.
There is a magazine called Skeptic magazine that I like to read as much as I can. In it, I remember reading an article about how the human mind is geared to try to associate things together so it can feel the comfort of it's environment making sense. I think natural disasters and diseases and people associating them with God's wrath is an example of this.
I just find it odd that people can find someone doing something they disagree with and link something bad happening to them as their "just dues". And it happens with all the religions to some extent or another. But if it were the case then how come just a few people doing some naughty stuff in a large crowd can bring down the damnation of God on them? And if that's the case, then America certainly deserves all kinds of bad things happening to it (ala Fred Phelps). For this is a nation pretty much built on personal liberties and equality under the law. That means that this country loves and thrives diversity in the eyes of its judiciary system.
Remember, some people believe just not being of their religion is wrong. So, anytime they see something bad happen to their opposing religion they can say that is God making them pay up. It's like the Skeptic magazine article, you see what you want to see so things make sense. If that's not the case, then how do you justify something bad happening to someone who is a really good person? And I don't mean this in a hostile way towards you Dreanor, I just find this hard to look at and believe objectively. Bad things happen to people in a statistically random way. I am certain that if investigated (if it hasn't been already) that would be the outcome. It's just a thing that happens.
I think if you're going to say something is true, then it's got to be a non-wavering case. It can't be something you find happening just here and there and use just the events that match up to make a complete case.
All that I am saying is that it is absolutely impossible for you to make a case based upon the doctrine of Christianity that the Christians who say that natural disaster's are "God's wrath" are wrong...You are judging them based upon something that you don't believe anyway, so of course your opinion is going to be that they are wrong, but according to what they have chosen to believe as fact, they are very much within a reasonable hermeneutic...You're constructing your argument based on a presupposition that they are wrong, just as they believe that some natural disaster's can be seen as God's wrath. Your argument is inherently bullet-proof because you have constructed it around the presupposition that THEIR presupposition simply cannot be correct, but yours is. As far as your argument that it can't be God's wrath because there are random storms everywhere and random suffering (at least that seems to be what you are saying) Where in the Bible does it say that those things are inherently God's wrath? It's not in there...natural disaster was simply a means to an end used by God, not a uniform pattern that God used to punish people. Storms and the like are used in other places as well in order to teach lessons...how about Jesus walking on water? There was a storm raging then, and it wasn't because somebody did something naughty.
And just as you say that it is impossible for me to make a case because it is something I don't believe, the same argument can be made of you. So, the only thing we have to fall back upon is evidence. And the evidence of it all being random events seems to be the best evidence that can explain EVERY event. Not just a select few here and there that fit into a mold.
If I have some weather event that occurs and causes something positive to happen to me am I supposed to believe that God did that to help me out? Or how personal am I supposed to take the whole thing? I would love to believe what you say, so I'm not so sure that you're right about me choosing something to believe. I never made that choice, it's just something inherent in my brain I guess. But there are other things that I have in my brain that I found evidence to prove wrong. This has not been proven wrong. And to see the evidence that I (or anyone for that matter) am wrong about other things does not make it any easier for my brain to eject the prior belief. It just makes it one that I am able to accept as an error and move past.
The brain is a strange thing and does some pretty convincing things to comfort us. I am going through some heavy therapy right now to make mine quit believing I'm still in a threatening situation. It plays tricks on me all the time to convince me that reality is wrong and I'm still in danger. I have to look at the evidence and use it to my advantage. I know just how strong "belief" can be. It's a real booger to overcome.
As I've said, based upon what they believe, there is no reason for you to bash on them because all you are doing is bashing on the core of what they believe... There is absolutely no Biblical basis for saying that they are wrong, and if they are basing what they say on the Bible then one really cannot say that they are off base. The only difference is, as I said, that you don't believe that the Bible is true, and they do...so why don't you just make a thread about why the Bible isn't true? Because that's what the inevitable outcome of posting this thread was.
I'm not bashing on anyone. Like I said, I know how daunting belief can be on the brain. It is a hard thing to overcome. Even in the face of real evidence otherwise. But when evidence shows that disasters happen in a random way, it's just the way it is.
As far as the outcome of this thread, that's like trying to control a car on an icy road. I have no way of making people stay on the topic I would like them too. My making of this thread was not to say the Bible is not true. I know some parts of it historically are true. My purpose was to discuss people trying to place a random event into the realm of intention.
Sometimes when god and karma are bored they play with tectonic plates, as if murdering tens of thousands of mostly innocent people is justifiable. Normally I'd be outraged by such a comment from a person, but its only Sharon Stone (washed up and judging by the video, retarded). Strange that so many people worship a murderer. According to the bible God has been murdering people for a long time, oh wait 'judging'. Hell he even murdered people just to prove something to satan, sick.
No God did not murder anyone. Now you're sounding like Sharon Stone.
I don't get it. The Bible is full of stories of God using natural disaster to punish people. For Religious leaders to say some natural disasters are Gods punishment is natural. Some of it may be far fetched like Aids is sent to kill homosexuals but nonetheless there is precedence set in the bible for things like Katrina as New Orleans was a very decadent town. I think you are saying because some idiot hollywood bimbo said China is getting some Karma Christians should disregard all stories that God uses nature to punish those who stray far away from his flock? Perhaps that's going to extremes, maybe you just want Christians to beleive that God has said, "to hell with you" and just stopped punishing those blatantly defy him? I'm sure you have some good reasoning....
So, are all Chinese people evil, and therefore God punishes them?
Or are they evil, and being punished because they are not Christian?
Maybe God is punishing them because they look different then us?
Maybe some righteous Christian could explain exactly what God was punishing them for?
Unfair generalization here. Christianity actually has reached China. Who'da thunked it? Know a few Chinese-Americans, Asian-Americans that go to church.
Yup, but I learned about a time in history when they were called "Godless Communists". Isn't it ironic that a group who fights the separation of church and state would also make such a comment linking the two against our enemy?
I don't like Communists either, but I guess that when you throw the "Godless" thing in there it pulls more people into your cause who really didn't care so much before. I personally don't see the relationship between the two.
If God was going to lay the smack down on the "godless commies" he would do far more then cause an earthquake and kill a handfull of Chinese people. OMG he said only a handfull! Well considering how many people live in China it is very few and that government doesn't give a damn about their own people.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Comments
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
Roman Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Roman Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion:
Anglican
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Old Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize an Old Catholic church as their state religion:
Islamic countries
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.
Sunni Islam
Shi'a Islam
Buddhism as state religion
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
America is in the minority when it comes to National Religion. This is the list of countries with no National Religion.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
And we, the people who think you're wrong, have the freedom to let you know that. It isn't just good sense to oppose people who make such grand statements, it is a moral duty. Why? These claims tend to point at one group or another (we'll call them Gays and non-Christians) and place the blame on these people. Oh wait, hate the sin, not the sinner. Until it's time to bash the sinner. Maybe the sin can be whipped out of them in order to save their soul. Or maybe they can be hung. Or shot. Or blown up. Whatever it takes to save the country from unnatural disasters, right?
I think calling crazy crazy is a good idea. It puts up a barrier of protection for when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan. Who wants the next largest natural disaster (on a much larger scale than anything we have witnessed thus far) to be the catalyst to a witch hunt? What if those darn gays would just act normal and stop bringing God's loving hate down on us? What if all those soulless Atheists were exterminated so that the grace of God could shine down on an unblemished land?
So yeah, what harm could possibly come from believing whatever you want to?
Just bring an ounce of proof. Just an ounce. Because that is where the burden lies. Not with the people who call you crazy or simply don't believe what you say, but with the person with the extraordinary claim. Something about extraordinary evidence.... how does that saying go? heh.
Besides, haven't we covered this already? Good grief.
- LC
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
You're missing the point, this isn't about freedom to believe or not, that has absolutely nothing to do with point I was trying to make.
That freedom of religion is the reason we do not have a National Religion. Most countries do have some type of Nationaly recognized religions.
Currently, the following religions are recognized as state religions in some countries: some form of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.
Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
Roman Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Roman Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion:
Anglican
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Old Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize an Old Catholic church as their state religion:
Islamic countries
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.
Sunni Islam
Shi'a Islam
Buddhism as state religion
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
America is in the minority when it comes to National Religion. This is the list of countries with no National Religion.
- Australia
- Azerbaijan
- Canada
- Chile
- Cuba
- People's Republic of China
- France
- India
- Ireland
- Israel (which considers itself a "democratic Jewish state", although "Jewish" might be construed to refer to the people rather than the religion)
- Jamaica
- Japan (Shinto until end of WWII)
- Kosovo
- Lebanon (although president must always remain a Maronite Catholic, and prime minister a Sunni Muslim)
- Mexico
- Montenegro
- Nepal (declared a secular state on May 18, 2006, by the newly resumed House of Representatives)
- New Zealand
- Nigeria
- North Korea
- Romania
- Russia
- Singapore
- South Africa
- South Korea
- Spain
- Turkey
- United States
- Venezuela
- Vietnam
Oh, and CITE YOUR SOURCES.Thanks,
- LC
Simple reasoning for a simple minded person, if something big and scary happened used magical reasoning to explain it.
Besides meteorology, seismic activity and the like makes my simple ape brain spin, but magical systems that record your actions and punish or reward you thusly I can get.
Not really suprising Sharon Stone is a movie star and has to remain relevant so occasionaly she says things and there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
From the viewpoint of a Bible believing Christian, there really is nothing theologically wrong with believing that God destroys things by means of natural disaster (nor is there anything wrong with believing that God no longer does such things)...so why do you think that they are crazy? Maybe you just don't believe the same things that they do? Certainly the founding fathers would be okay with people believing different things.
Gnome, you're treading on grounds that you don't know very much about, you're just asking for a theological discussion here...do you really want that? I'd be happy to show you all the nifty little places where God's wrath comes to Earth, but I'm sure that you're already famliar with some of them.
There is a magazine called Skeptic magazine that I like to read as much as I can. In it, I remember reading an article about how the human mind is geared to try to associate things together so it can feel the comfort of it's environment making sense. I think natural disasters and diseases and people associating them with God's wrath is an example of this.I just find it odd that people can find someone doing something they disagree with and link something bad happening to them as their "just dues". And it happens with all the religions to some extent or another. But if it were the case then how come just a few people doing some naughty stuff in a large crowd can bring down the damnation of God on them? And if that's the case, then America certainly deserves all kinds of bad things happening to it (ala Fred Phelps). For this is a nation pretty much built on personal liberties and equality under the law. That means that this country loves and thrives diversity in the eyes of its judiciary system.
Remember, some people believe just not being of their religion is wrong. So, anytime they see something bad happen to their opposing religion they can say that is God making them pay up. It's like the Skeptic magazine article, you see what you want to see so things make sense. If that's not the case, then how do you justify something bad happening to someone who is a really good person? And I don't mean this in a hostile way towards you Dreanor, I just find this hard to look at and believe objectively. Bad things happen to people in a statistically random way. I am certain that if investigated (if it hasn't been already) that would be the outcome. It's just a thing that happens.
I think if you're going to say something is true, then it's got to be a non-wavering case. It can't be something you find happening just here and there and use just the events that match up to make a complete case.
And just as you say that it is impossible for me to make a case because it is something I don't believe, the same argument can be made of you. So, the only thing we have to fall back upon is evidence. And the evidence of it all being random events seems to be the best evidence that can explain EVERY event. Not just a select few here and there that fit into a mold.All that I am saying is that it is absolutely impossible for you to make a case based upon the doctrine of Christianity that the Christians who say that natural disaster's are "God's wrath" are wrong...You are judging them based upon something that you don't believe anyway, so of course your opinion is going to be that they are wrong, but according to what they have chosen to believe as fact, they are very much within a reasonable hermeneutic...You're constructing your argument based on a presupposition that they are wrong, just as they believe that some natural disaster's can be seen as God's wrath. Your argument is inherently bullet-proof because you have constructed it around the presupposition that THEIR presupposition simply cannot be correct, but yours is. As far as your argument that it can't be God's wrath because there are random storms everywhere and random suffering (at least that seems to be what you are saying) Where in the Bible does it say that those things are inherently God's wrath? It's not in there...natural disaster was simply a means to an end used by God, not a uniform pattern that God used to punish people. Storms and the like are used in other places as well in order to teach lessons...how about Jesus walking on water? There was a storm raging then, and it wasn't because somebody did something naughty.
If I have some weather event that occurs and causes something positive to happen to me am I supposed to believe that God did that to help me out? Or how personal am I supposed to take the whole thing? I would love to believe what you say, so I'm not so sure that you're right about me choosing something to believe. I never made that choice, it's just something inherent in my brain I guess. But there are other things that I have in my brain that I found evidence to prove wrong. This has not been proven wrong. And to see the evidence that I (or anyone for that matter) am wrong about other things does not make it any easier for my brain to eject the prior belief. It just makes it one that I am able to accept as an error and move past.
The brain is a strange thing and does some pretty convincing things to comfort us. I am going through some heavy therapy right now to make mine quit believing I'm still in a threatening situation. It plays tricks on me all the time to convince me that reality is wrong and I'm still in danger. I have to look at the evidence and use it to my advantage. I know just how strong "belief" can be. It's a real booger to overcome.
As I've said, based upon what they believe, there is no reason for you to bash on them because all you are doing is bashing on the core of what they believe... There is absolutely no Biblical basis for saying that they are wrong, and if they are basing what they say on the Bible then one really cannot say that they are off base. The only difference is, as I said, that you don't believe that the Bible is true, and they do...so why don't you just make a thread about why the Bible isn't true? Because that's what the inevitable outcome of posting this thread was.
I'm not bashing on anyone. Like I said, I know how daunting belief can be on the brain. It is a hard thing to overcome. Even in the face of real evidence otherwise. But when evidence shows that disasters happen in a random way, it's just the way it is.As far as the outcome of this thread, that's like trying to control a car on an icy road. I have no way of making people stay on the topic I would like them too. My making of this thread was not to say the Bible is not true. I know some parts of it historically are true. My purpose was to discuss people trying to place a random event into the realm of intention.
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No God did not murder anyone. Now you're sounding like Sharon Stone.
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Or are they evil, and being punished because they are not Christian?
Maybe God is punishing them because they look different then us?
Maybe some righteous Christian could explain exactly what God was punishing them for?
Unfair generalization here. Christianity actually has reached China. Who'da thunked it? Know a few Chinese-Americans, Asian-Americans that go to church.
Yup, but I learned about a time in history when they were called "Godless Communists". Isn't it ironic that a group who fights the separation of church and state would also make such a comment linking the two against our enemy?I don't like Communists either, but I guess that when you throw the "Godless" thing in there it pulls more people into your cause who really didn't care so much before. I personally don't see the relationship between the two.
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If God was going to lay the smack down on the "godless commies" he would do far more then cause an earthquake and kill a handfull of Chinese people. OMG he said only a handfull! Well considering how many people live in China it is very few and that government doesn't give a damn about their own people.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan